First, I would like to thank both Andy and Tony for this opportunity to contribute to the blog, plus all their efforts over the years in creating and maintaining this site. I think it has provided a great forum for discussions related to the Pro Football Hall of Fame and attracted a dedicated (if small) group of active participants.
As a regular, I certainly have appreciated the respectful – even though at times passionate – discussions and disagreements on the wide range of topics and related opinions that have been presented. My aim with these posts is only to keep the discussion fresh and moving forward by providing timely new stories that will follow the key news and events of the selection timeline and process from August to February. Then perhaps in the “offseason” introduce a variety of NFL related posts on topics also of interest to this forum.
Second, as a little background on me, I have been a fan of the NFL since 1977; the first game I watched on TV with my Dad was Super Bowl XII. Yes, you could say I was then hooked, both on professional football and the Dallas Cowboys. I have closely followed news and events on the league and team ever since, starting with newspapers, TV, magazine coverage, and later via ESPN and cable sports, the internet and now social media. Although I am probably now a little less obsessed than I was when younger – family and work are more of a focus these days – I still keep up on events and games, especially major news, watch occasional games (have attended about 20 games in-person lifetime) and fan of NFL Red Zone and social media coverage.
As to the PFHOF, I was certainly aware of the Canton “museum” as a young fan, and the election of new members, but really began to appreciate its role in housing the history of the game and honoring best players, coaches and contributors with my first visit in 1994 for the enshrinement of Tony Dorsett and Randy White. Starting in the early 2000 – also along with repeated visits over the years to the Hall and several other enshrinements over the last two decades – I started to follow the actual election and voting process, timelines and announcements closely.
At a time when coverage via the internet was just emerging, it was very hard to learn much in the way of public comments or insight on the process, so it was with stories by SI writer Paul Zimmerman (Dr. Z) and later, Peter King, that provided the first looks for me inside to the issues, debates and often controversies of the voting and final selections for election.
So, where does that leave us? Let’s start my guest columns here, as the process for selection of the Class of 2020 is underway. And what a process it is going to be with the modification of the election procedure revised for one year only in observation of the 100th anniversary of the NFL, which is to be recognized starting this season and highlighted with a week long series of special events and activities in Canton in September 2020 (in addition to the usual annual PFHOF enshrinement events early August next year).
I think we all know the new “rules” but here they are: election of the modern candidates follows same process as before with 25 semifinalists announced in late November. That group is decreased to 15 finalists in January. And then at the selection meeting the day before the Super Bowl, voters reduce the list from 15 to 10, and then from 10 to a final 5, each of whom is voted on independently. They need 80% of voters to say “yes” to be elected.
The huge change, and one many of us called for and hoped would occur, is a special selection in recognition of the 100th anniversary and role of the Hall: election of a special class of 15 to consist of 10 seniors, three contributors and two coaches. Our debates centered around the selection of senior candidates, and calls for an expanded election have been a major thread on here in recent years. These 15 will be nominated by a special blue-ribbon panel (membership yet to be announced) who will release a semi-final list of 30 in November, with 15 finalists in early January. These 15, as one group, will be voted on by the full Hall Selection Committee at the meeting day before Super Bowl (requiring 80% approval for their collective election to the Class of 2020).
So, in the coming months I will make an effort to create new posts as key news and announcements on both groups that will make up the Class of 2020. Seems appropriate at this point, even though some of this discussion has already occurred with posts on other discussion boards here, to start from the preliminary list of 122 nominees for the modern candidate election as released earlier this month by the Hall, and which can be found here:
How do we all feel about our predictions for the 25 semi-finalists to be selected by the voters from this pool of nominees for the modern candidates of the Class of 2020? Any thoughts to most deserving? Possible wildcards? Biggest potential surprises? Guaranteed locks?
Let the discussion and debates begin!
And for those interested, here are plans for the NFL 100th anniversary events to be held in Canton, September 16-20, 2020. Includes “Wednesday, Sept. 16 with the Centennial Celebration Gala, a black-tie event that will include the enshrinement of some of the members from the historic Centennial Class that will be comprised of 20 members.” My understanding is that the 5 moderns will still be enshrined at the Hall in early August, and the additional special class of 15 will be at this September event.
https://www.profootballhof.com/canton-begins-countdown-to-centennial-celebration/
And more information here: https://cantoncelebratesnfl100.com/
Information on the NFL Centennial celebrations in Canton and at Hall on Sept.
https://www.profootballhof.com/canton-begins-countdown-to-centennial-celebration/
https://cantoncelebratesnfl100.com/
“The tentative schedule for the celebration kicks off on Wednesday, Sept. 16 with the Centennial Celebration Gala, a black-tie event that will include the enshrinement of some of the members from the historic Centennial Class that will be comprised of 20 members. ”
My understanding is the 5 moderns will still be enshrined at usual events at Hall in early August, so these others must be the 15 special centennial class?
28 Player/ Contributors who have been finalists but are now in the senior pool or contribiutor wing
1. Ken Anderson
2.Blanton Collier
3.Charlie Conerly
4.Don Coryell
5.Beattie Feathers
6.Tom Flores
7.Willie Galimore
8.Marshall Goldberg
9.Randy Gradishar
10.L.C.Greenwood
11.Cliff Harris
12.Ole Haugsrud
13.Lester Hayes
14.Joe Jacoby
15.Jimmy Johnson
16.Lee Roy Jordan
17.Bob Kuechenberg
18.Gene Lipscomb
19.Jim Marshall
20.Tony Morabito
21.Lou Rymkus
22.Clark Shaugnessy
23.Donnie Shell
24.Duke Slater
25.Mac Speedie
26.Paul Tagliabue
27.Jim Tyrer
28.Everson Walls
blue ribbon panel to select special class of 15 has been announced:
https://mavensports.io/talkoffame/nfl/belichick-one-of-25-voters-named-to-hall-s-panel-for-centennial-class-of-2020-Colrs4qSnE-WMOpphBpAsg/
And for those interested, here are plans for the NFL 100th anniversary events to be held in Canton, September 16-20, 2020. Includes “Wednesday, Sept. 16 with the Centennial Celebration Gala, a black-tie event that will include the enshrinement of some of the members from the historic Centennial Class that will be comprised of 20 members.” My understanding is that the 5 moderns will still be enshrined at the Hall in early August, and the additional special class of 15 will be at this September event. The even schedule also referred to a Friday evening (Sept 18th) enshrinement event?
What follows is the Blue Ribbon Panel for the Hall’s Centennial Class of 2020:
ERNIE ACCORSI – Former GM Baltimore Colts, Cleveland Browns and N.Y. Giants.
BILL BELICHICK – New England Patriots head coach.
JARRETT BELL – Hall of Fame selector, USA Today.
JOEL BUSSERT – Former NFL executive, pro football historian.
JOHN CLAYTON – Hall of Fame selector, Washington Post.
FRANK COONEY – Hall of Fame selector, SportsXchange.
JOHN CZARNECKI – Hall of Fame selector, Fox Sports.
RICK GOSSELIN – Hall of Fame selector, Talk of Fame Network.
ELLIOTT HARRISON – Pro football historian, NFL.com.
JOE HORRIGAN – Former Pro Football Hall of Fame executive, pro football historian.
IRA KAUFMAN – Hall of Fame selector, JoeBucsFan.com.
DICK LEBEAU – Hall of Fame cornerback, former NFL coach.
JEFF LEGWOLD – Hall of Fame selector, ESPN.com.
JOHN MADDEN – Hall of Fame coach.
JOHN McCLAIN – Hall of Fame selector, Houston Chronicle.
GARY MYERS – Hall of Fame selector, The Athletic.
OZZIE NEWSOME – Hall of Fame tight end, former GM Baltimore Ravens.
CARL PETERSON – Former GM Philadelphia Eagles, Kansas City Chiefs.
SAL PAOLANTONIO – Hall of Fame selector, ESPN.
BILL POLIAN – Hall of Fame contributor, former GM Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, Indianapolis Colts.
DAN POMPEI – Hall of Fame selector, The Athletic.
CHAREAN WILLIAMS – Hall of Fame selector, Pro Football Talk.
CHRIS WILLIS – Producer/head of research library NFL Films, pro football historian.
BARRY WILNER – Hall of Fame selector, Associated Press.
Interesting group
yep, BillB is a surprising choice (only “active” member), plus 5 current PFHOFers, 13 current PFHOF selection committee members including 7 of 9 senior committee members, 4 of 9 current contributors committee members, looks like existing voters will have a major influence, but nice to see 12 others including several who are very knowledgeable about 99 yr history of the league-perhaps more so then some of the voters. Hopefully those 12 can bring some fresh views as to candidates long passed over (or ignored) by the seniors committee.
Timeline is for panel to select (via mail in ballot) semifinalists of 20 seniors, 8 coaches and 10 contributors, to be announced in November, followed by meeting of panel to choose 15 finalists in early January-those 15 will be voted on as a single group by full selection committee day before the Superbowl with group of 15 requiring 80% approval. The decision by the Hall to advance as a group of 15 and not individually for final approval vote by full committee has been questioned publicly by several selection committee members.
Its my understanding (with details to be confirmed by the Hall) that the 15 special class will in fact be enshrined in special event during the NFL 100th anniversary celebrations in Canton in September 2020 (so no the August enshrinement will not take several hours and include all 20 new members, only five hours for the 5 moderns!!)
Many of the members of the blue ribbon panel have already spoken publicly about which seniors they believe have been passed over wrongly. Horrigan for example is a big supporter of Duke Slater. And Harrison is a big supporter of Chuck Howley. Should give those guys a forceful advocate.
Unfortunately I think Howley will be passed over for teammate WR Drew Pearson or S Cliff Harris due to focus on electing remaining 1st team All Pro team members, and with only 10 senior slots I don’t think a team will get two elected. And that is coming from someone who has been pulling for Howley for years, unlikely 2020 is his year.
That would be really Unfortunate. I think all 3 of those guys (and Harvey Martin) should be in the hall, but Howley is my number one choice. i also don’t think Mike Curtis will get in and he is guy I would have liked to see get in years ago.
Well its worth remembering that the special class of 2020 is not the last election of senior candidates, 1-2 a year will be elected in 2021and beyond, plus there are plenty deserving so while the 10 is a great step forward in getting those in, many other deserving senior candidates will still remain in the pool for future elections and will get their opportunities. Certainly expectations are high for many candidates and their fans for the ten member class, but many are going to remain disappointed.
keep up the good work paul
thanks, but also hoping other regulars will continue to visit and post as well
got a question paul which candidate could you see belichick support george young or robert kraft
That’s an interesting question and one we may never khow answer to as first round of voting by the panel is via in mail-in ballot to get to semi-finalist list so we will have no idea who he would prefer more. Part of me thinks he would clearly realize that now is not the time to advocate for Kraft and instead throw his support behind Young when it comes to the panel meeting to discuss semi-finalists and elect their 15 finalists including the 3 contributors, but who knows
Does anyone think that L.C. Greenwood or Nolan Cromwell might make one of the Senior nominees?
LC has a sight chance while Nolan has none at all, unless you have multiple 1st all pro selections or all decade team you are not going to be senior nominee
Nolan Cromwell actually is on the 1980s all decade team, so I wouldn’t say he has no chance. That said, the chance wound be small, since Meador, Harris, Browner and Cherry are also all decade safeties that have better cases.
LC Greenwood is a guy that I think has a good chance at a senior nomination in the near future, if not this year. He’s won multiple Super Bowls, is on an all-decade team, has decent, but not great post season awards, had been nominated as a modern era finalist before, and perhaps most importantly, has the best case of DE in the senior pool.
Sorry I meant not in class of 2020 and I think many will be surprised at number of pre 1970 seniors selected and limited numbers from 70s 80s which will likely leave out Greenwood, there are a bunch of more deserving 50s 60s players plus the 2 first team 70s all decade players that will get stronger consideration
Man, Frank Gore might get 1,000 rushing yards this year at age 36. I could see him perhaps being elected first ballot if he gets real close to or surpasses 16,000 rushing yards.
Personally, I feel Gene Brito is the biggest snub among two-way era Senior DEs. L.C. ranks #2 at the position for me, followed by Mark Gastineau and Earl Faison. Alex Karras tops my list for all DL.
Re Frank Gore, I think he’s getting in at this point — he’s less than 200 career rushing yards away from passing Barry Sanders for 3rd all time. Some of the voters may hold back votes his first year because of a perceived lack of peak, but we shall see.
Gore will be an interesting case but like Curtis Martin I think its very likely he will not be 1st ballot.
I also think Frank Gore gets in, but it depends who is on the ballot the year he is eligible. He could still play a couple of more seasons. Could end up on a ballot with Brady, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Manning, Vinatieri, Fitzgerald, Suggs could all be on the same ballot as 1st timers.
Yep could be a very crowded ballot 2025-2018
2025-2028
curious quest paul what do you think happens with patrick willis and calvin johnson
I think both will have a wait, Willis could be several years, Johnson likely less
As we about to roll into November, just a reminder typically (based on recent election cycles) the 25 modern semi-finalist candidates should be announced around November 20th. Hall also stated back in August that with the special class of 2020 that we would see a semi-finalist list from the blue ribbon panel (for seniors, coaches and contributors) also in November-no idea when and if will be same time as moderns or different day.
Looks like the pfhof voters wont vote on the special class looks like it will be voted on by the blue ribbon panel good call
Here’s a link:
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/11/01/hall-of-fame-makes-dramatic-change-to-the-rules-for-the-15-person-centennial-mega-class/
It looks like the Blue Ribbon Panel group of 15 is the only aspect to be affected. They apparently will be selected and elected by the Blue Ribbon panel only.
There are several good things about this. For one thing, the slate of 15 now cannot be voted down. And it’s the best chance likely for some deserving but un-electable types to make it in, like Jim Tyrer, Paul Tagliabue, and Robert Kraft. The bad news, though, is that it potentially opens the door to some bad and tough to elect options such as Ken Riley, Tom Flores, and Jim Marshall.
It also suggests there was real concern the full electorate might vote down the whole slate of 15. How well this sits with the voters shut out of the process will indeed be interesting.
Good news for Kraft, Modell and Tagliabue.
With 1/2 of the blue ribbon panel consisting of current selection committee members I think it may be overstating to think this decision creates an easier path forward for Kraft, Modell and Tagliabue. The former commissioner may be controversial, but he has been a finalist before, indicating support from majority of selection committee members and honoring the 100th anniversary of the league why not consider one of only 6 commissioner and one who served 17 years including huge growth in the league (and yes his record on labor relations and players health are poor or mixed at best). I don’t think the 3 contributors representing 100 years of league history will be these three, am not advocating for Tagiabue but let’s face it eventually the committee would elect him someday.
Frankly I find of the social media debate on this change to be amusing to say the least. First you have folks who have hated the current process and voters for years, complaining each and every election, and so glad to see them “gone”(and of course they really are still there) while others see this a great new process, even though committee will still elect the 5 moderns, 1/2 of panel are committee members and its only for one year.
Guessing some of the voters will complain, but to me they come of as self righteous having been appointed by the PFHOF Board and same body has every right to change rules and election process as they see fit, the voters are not the god divined gate keepers to the Hall. It also makes an assumption-by some voters and fans-that somehow the current voters are special and only ones qualified to elect PFHOFers, yet 1/2 of them are also on the panel that includes other experts who have opinions and experience just as valid as the writers. Membership on the committee has changed (and been expanded) many times since 1960, so who is to say or know if the committee who elected PFHOFers in 1968 was better or worse then 2018? All you can ask for is a group of dedicated informed educated people to serve as voters, whether on the committee or the special panel.
If at the end with selection of the class of 2020 there are voters or fans dismissing the 15 special class because they were elected by a blue ribbon panel and not the selection committee, I am wiling to stand and strongly defend the process and all 15 as deserving and honor is same as every other election in history of the Hall. The 15, who have all waited decades for election, deserve that much.
Also worth noting the story critical of this decision on was written by Mike Florio who is not a voter and frankly has some odd and out of left field views on the league and Hall, likely not supported by many fans or committee members (loves to be controversial to drive attention to his website, blog and social media).
Apparently Peter King (voter) has expressed some reservation on social media and will include more in his Monday column tomorrow-interesting that although a long serving selection committee member, one of the more public with his reporting on the voting, and member of contributors selection committee was left off the blue ribbon pane. Lets see how tempered he is with his comments, when many of his professional colleagues and contacts (BillB, John Madden, Joe Horrigan) whom he respects and often speaks highly of are on the blue ribbon panel-will he say the panel is less qualified to elect PFHOFers compared to a committee largely made up his fellow writers?
Good comments so far, and agree with t(em mostly. I do think this group is still likely to push through guys like Tagliabue, likely seeing this as their one shot at it.
Agreed that Mike Florio always has been a loose cannon (and HoF selector wannabe), in his HoF articles, which makes his observations biased and suspect. And am definitely not surprised with the comments that seemingly won’t be happy no matter what the selecting process. It’s really easy to be a no-solution contrarian whiner when you’re an armchair quarterback in front of a computer screen.
Given that 1/2 of the blue ribbon panel are voters I would expect there will still be resistance and heated debates over Tabliabue and Modell, but let’s face it that as only of only 6 commissioners and who served during 16 years of huge growth in the league (and who has had enough support among voters to be a finalist before), Tags is getting in one day, with panel it just may be sooner. If selected-and I really don’t care either way, I will still defend the process and 15 elected against all complainers.
bachs would you agree that lebeau should support teammates like karras and brown instead of riley
I’m not a fan of John Clayton, Sal Paolantonio and Belicheck being on the Blue Ribbon panel? I’d pick Chris Mortensen over Sal Pal or better yet Chris Berman or Tom Jackson? Seems like Belicheck will be a little too busy. lol Modell, Rosenbloom and Tagliabue would my wish list three contributors. Wish list Head Coaches would be Marty Schottenhiemer and Chuck Knox. Dan Reeves must of done something right?
Big name players who’s selection wouldn’t surprise me are : Alex Karras, Chuck Howley, Tommy Nobis, LC Greenwood, Bob Kuechenberg, Harold Jackson, Isiah Robertson, Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris, Ken Anderson, Cliff Branch, Randy Gradishar, Chuck Foreman and Mark Gastineau.
Great first article Paul and discussion.
very very logical points tony
TonyP that’s a great list but I think one thing that will come out of the blue ribbon panel (perhaps more so than if it was left in hands of the seniors committee or full voting committee) are more seniors from pre 1970s eras, there are only 10 senior slots and I just don’t think we would see as many 60s, and especially 70s selections as one might think. Would not surprise we one bit to see 5-6 seniors from pre 1970s eras. I also think there will be very careful strategic choices to ensure representation of diversity of positions, teams and eras. I doubt both Harris and Pearson get in, but one is very very likely. And as much as I have been a long supporter for Howley (and remain so) I don’t think this process-with so many comments about addressing all decade team members- serves him well.
I really don’t think Chris Berman or Tom Jackson are perhaps as well versed in the 99 yr history of the league, especially pre 1990s, not sure what they would really add in terms of expertise to the panel, frankly I think the Hall did a good job in a mix of current voters and new voices represented in the panel.
paul i concur 100%
Yup that’s the $64,000 question – How many pre-Modern day players get elected? There aren’t very many that stand out to me but thank God more educated people than I will make sure proper recognition is given out.
Sal Pao is a Philly guy. Berman is an AFL Buffalo guy and seems like a super fan. Jackson would have a good perspective as an ex-player. How do we know about most of these guys on the Panel as historians? Like Bill said a while back it’s tough to judge these earlier players with a relative lack of information. We were talking about Slater and I said Halas’ praise is good enough for me. No one is still alive who saw these players but maybe there’s enough testimony and film. Looking at the stats related to other plays at the time I’m not impressed by many that get mentioned routinely.
Off topic, WR Tyreek Hill of KC became the fifth player to reach 20 TD’s of 40 yards or longer tying Gale Sayers and Lance Alworth. Randy Moss and Bob Hayes have over 20. Hill is in his 4th season and 25 years old and 2/3 profile. Since the other four are in the HOF Hill is one to watch.
Got me to thinking, it seems really rare in Modern Football 1960 forward for a player of normal height at 5’10” to make the Hall. I guess Russell Wilson has a good shot. Can you think of anyone that size who made it? Emmitt Smith was pretty short. Of course I will tell y’all Duper or Clayton should be in. lol
I’m with Paul here. I think most of the players on the list will be pre-70s, with a few from the 70s or later. The whole point of this exercise will be to clear the decks and get some players put forth who haven’t been in the room before, especially all-decade team guys.
From my list of 75 biggest Senior snubs, there are 47 who played mainly in the 60s or before and 28 who played mainly in the 70s or later, about a 2/1 ratio. I suspect that’s what we’re likely to see on the 10-Senior list, though I could be wrong.
Ie: roger brown chuck howley maxie baughan
NFL Network has a show entitled “Pro Football Hall of Fame” scheduled for Tuesday November 26th, 1-2p. Perhaps announcement of class of 2020 modern semi-finalists and/or blue ribbon panel semi-finalists (no other upcoming Hall show on their schedule in November). That is the usual timing in terms of day right before Thanksgiving, but in recent years has been an evening event? Their schedule changes frequently, so will have to wait what that is or if another separate evening show with announcement will be added. Of course nothing on the PFHOF website but they are pretty inconsistent or late with any updates or news until after the fact.
I was buoyed by Harrison’s inclusion, since he’s been on record stating he considers Chuck Howley to be the most deserving senior candidate not yet in. I’m less thrilled about Gosselin’s participation despite him being the “Dallas representative”, for reasons I’ve repeatedly explained on this site.
I know Gosselin has been focusing on first team All Decade exclusions, but has anyone else?
yes we know your problems with rg
As a member of a 24 member blue ribbon panel, I have less concern about Gosselins role and voice as one among many, compared to one of only 9 voters (or among 5 making final selection) when seniors committee is making choices
Paul, was your comment that there have been “so many comments about addressing all decade team members” just about Gosselin or have there been other panelists emphasizing similar arguments?
hypothetical ques could howleys lack of all decade honor hurt
Robert, in answer to your question, I think the lack of all-decade team membership doesn’t help Howley. I’m not sure it actually hurts him, though — other non-all-decade team OLBs such as Chris Hanburger and Dave Wilcox have gotten in. Howley likely has support among some of the voters, and my guess is that he’ll get in eventually. And my guess is he’s bettrr positioned to get enshrined than other potentially deserving OLBs such as Joe Fortunato, Larry Grantham, Bill Forester, or Mike Stratton.
But he may wait a while — and far too long for the taste of several who are knowledgeable about the process (count me among them).
Read focus on all decade from other votes and yes could hurt Howleys case in 2020
So votes not comments? Hopefully this new mix of voters will improve Howley’s chances.
Thanks Paul I’m thinking the same way
Surprising to me that these 3- time SB Champ Patriot Defensive players Willie McGinest 0/2, Mike Vrabel 1/1 and Tedy Bruschi 0/1 didn’t collect more accolades.
Richard Seymour got a lot of the shine playing DT and DE. I remember him best as a DE but interestingly he never cracked 8 sacks in a season Willie McGinest DE and OLB had 29 more sacks at 86 and Mike Vrabel had the same amount of sacks at 57. Vrabel also had 11 Ints. and 12 TD catches.
Do we think any of those players other than Seymour has a shot at the HOF? IMO ex-USC Trojan great Willie McGinest was the best of all four players.
So voters not comments? Not sure what you mean but other voters have discussed need to address 1st team all decade players
So voters not comments? Not sure what you mean but other voters have discussed need to address 1st team all decade players
Beyond Seymour I don’t think the other Patriots you mentioned have much of a chance
Your 100% correct paul
Paul, I know Gosselin has been on that first team All Decade push but I was wondering who some of those other voters were and if they’re on the blue ribbon panel.
Yes others from TalkofFame are also pushing for all decade members and was point made by Hall CEO David Baker so yes all decade players will get special attention by the panel
It doesn’t look like Baker is on the panel. Do you remember or can you link to what he said?
Bakers not on the panel but when the new process was announced he mentioned need to address the remaining all decade players.
From an interview he gave in August “”It’s an opportunity to catch up perhaps on some injustices,” he said, mentioning there are seven members of NFL all-decade teams not in the Hall of Fame. “This is an opportunity that comes around every other lifetime.””
a primer of all decade team members not in the hall of fame
1920’s NFL
Hunk Anderson
Lavern Dilweg
1930’s NFL
George Christensen
Frank Cope
Ox Emerson
Beattie Feathers
Charles “Buckets” Goldenberg
Cecil Isbell
Bill Lee
Russ Letlow
George Svendsen
Gaynell Tinsley
1940s NFL
Bruno Banducci
Jim Benton
Charlie Brock
Bill Edwards
Jack Ferrente
Pat Harder
Ken Kavanaugh
Bucko Kilroy
Bill Osmanski
Al Plozis
Buster Ramsey
Buford Ray
Vic Sears
Mac Speedie
Ed Sprinkle
Byron White
Al Wistert
Len Younce
1950’s NFL
Alan Ameche
Dick Barwegen
Joe Fortunao
Bobby Walston
1960’s NFL
Jim Bakken
Bobby Boyd
Don Chandler
Gary Collins
John David Crow
Boyd Dowler
Alex Karras
Ed Meador
Howard Mudd
Ralph Neely
1960s AFL All Decade
Houston Antwine
Fred Arbanas
Ed Budd
Clem Daniels
Dave Grayson
Paul Lowe
Jerry Mays
Tommy Nobis
Gerry Philbin
George Saimes
Tom Sestak
Del Shofner
Jim Tyrer
George Webster
Jerrel Wilson
1970’s NFL
Dick Anderson
Harold Carmichael
L.C.Greenwood
Cliff Harris
Billy Johnson
Drew Pearson
Rick Upchurch
Louis Wright
Garo Yepremian
1980’s NFL
John Anderson
Carl Banks
Joey Browner
Dave Butz
Deron Cherry
Jimbo Covert
Roger Craig
Nolan Cromwell
Bill Fralic
Lester Hayes
Joe Jacoby
Keith Millard
Frank Minnifield
I think Baker, like Gosselin, was referring to first team All Decade players, and either Baker misspoke or the AP reporter who wrote up the summary Paul referenced was sloppy. Either way, if that’s all it is then I retain some hope that not everyone there will share Gosselin’s focus on prioritizing first team All Decade status above all else. Probably even Baker doesn’t if that’s the only comment he’s made publicly about it. It reads more like just reciting an example to highlight his point, not that those are the only “injustices”.
And if nothing else inducting all 7 first team exclusions, which would probably surprise most if it happened, would still leave room for 3 more.
Great list! Looking at it makes me understand why being an All-Decade player shouldn’t guarantee a HOF spot. hahaha Not every decade produces great players at all positions. A lot of good and very good ones. :)
My pleasure Tony p
Plus unless a player retires right before the decade ends he’s chosen as All Decade when his legacy is still in flux without the full picture of his career. Then there’s the inherently arbitrary nature of the calendar-driven award, with many great players missing out because their careers straddled decades. And sometimes the selectors just make bad choices.
It’s a legitimate feather in one’s resume but it shouldn’t be the only thing that matters.
Excellent points
I do not think is the only thing that matters and even with the flaws (and I agree there are some), it does provide a means of looking at best players over a decade, and perhaps more importantly in terms of looking at Hall elections, all decade selections are a big deal with the current voters
There was a whole debate regarding 1st team all decade members and the special class on TalkofFame this past summer which was they all should considered but not they all should be elected. Since all the pre 1950s teams were not selected until 1969 that’s likely were many questionable selections rise. So although I think they will get a close look it many only be that 4-5 are elected and not all 7
Thanks, Rasputin…new to this site, comment alot on Talkoffamenetwork/Maven site. Didn’t know about this site, and would like to be part of the passionate discussions, that true NFL fans and historians love…
I truly believe Chuck Howley should have been All Decade for the 1960s…He is one of my ten senior candidates for this Centennial Class…glad to see Rewing and Bachslunch on this site…everyone misses you Bach’s at Talkoffame site…
Names of all decade players who appear to generating most interest and discussion include Lavern Dilweg*,Ox Emerson*, Al Wistert*, Del Shofner, Alex Karras, Tommy Nobis, Eddie Meador, Cliff Harris* and Drew Pearson* (*first team). I think there is a strongly likelihood that from that group Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert, Harris/Pearson are elected-4, still leaving 6 other slots for Duke Slater, Karras, Nobis, Meador. plus others including one 1980s decade player: Anderson?Craig?
The only 3 guys that I could see generating any buzz from the 1980s all-decade team are 3 former finalists: Lester Hayes, Roger Craig and Joe Jacoby. Gary Anderson, Sean Landeta and Billy Johnson have good cases in my opinion, but Anderson and Landeta still have modern-era eligibility left, and Johnson likely won’t be considered both because he was primarily a returner, and his career was extremely uneven. Deron Cherry and Joey Browner have reasonable resumes as well, but there is too much of a backlog at the safety position for me to think they would be seriously considered.
I think the guys Paul listed represent most of the best unelected candidates from all-decade teams, and I would be thrilled if any of them were elected. The other guys that I hope will gain some traction would be LC Greenwood (70s), Jim Tyrer (AFL), Larry Grantham (AFL), Walt Sweeney (AFL), Dick Barwegen (50s) and Mac Speedie (40s).
agreed 100% on the backlog of safeties bslo of the guys that bslo mentioned id support lc tyrer walt
Bachslunch, I hate to do this again, lol, but I’ve been asked on Talk of Fame to rely a message. Both Brian Wolf and Clark really want you to return to posting there. I told Brian about this place and that he should talk to you himself but when he tried to post a message on this thread it was held up (or blocked altogether?) with the “awaiting moderation” thing, so I’ll copy some of what they said.
I’ll skip the link lest it trip blocking software but you can find it on the “State Your Case: Voters need to wake up to what made Brian Mitchell so special” page, written by Clark on Aug. 19.
Brian Wolf: “Hi Rasputin… Hoping if you hear from Bachslunch again, try to get him on board with this Maven site.
We need a good, fresh lively debate with the 2020 Centennial Class, getting closer…I will present my HOF candidates soon, just hoping Clark, Ron and Goose bring up their picks again before the Nov 20th ? cutdown…”
Clark Judge: “Wish the two of you could convince him to get back here. The guy knows what he’s talking about. Plus, he’s willing to fight for what he wants. Makes for good debates. Anyway, thanks for tracking him down.”
Just figured you should know about that exchange.
rasputin if you need any other contributions let me know
Cool site Paul…Hopefully you will let me post soon. This is Brian Wolf and a NFL historian/fan/critic myself…Thanks
Brian, thanks for posting–sorry about the moderation, the first comment from an email address usually gets held up, but once it’s approved, should be good to go (unless posting links–those may get held up for moderation individually). Had to dial up the moderation efforts to block spam comments from getting through, but welcome to the site!
Rasputin, thanks for conveying the message.
Yes, I’ll go back and give the ToF site another go. The site’s format change has been the issue (found it more confusing and hard to navigate than previously), plus there has been competition from both real life and other interests providing distraction. Really like and respect the guys who run that site, no question.
There is obvious excitement amongst fans and press about these upcoming cutdown votes, but if I was an older, senior candidate waiting for one of those ten slots, I would rather have it announced just once, during SB weekend. A cutdown list in Nov or Jan, would be AGONIZING !!
My Centennial Class of 2020…
1) OG Duke Slater….Nuff Said
2) OT Al Wistert….Long Overdue
3) QB Charlie Conerly….Seven time HOF Finalist and tied for third in all time wins for QBs, when he retired.
4) WR Billy Howton….All Time leading receiver when he retired.
5) LB Chuck Howley….SB MVP, Should have been All Decade 1960s.
6) OT Winston Hill….Tough choice over Jim Tyrer and his accolades, but when you pay a rookie QB with bad knees 400,000, you BETTER protect his blindside. Hill did that in SPADES…
7) OG Bob Kuechenberg….Has the most finalist nominations without being voted in.
8) SS Donnie Shell….Has more championships, more tackles, and more forced turnovers than current, possible first ballot selection Troy Polamalu…Tough choice over teammate LC Greenwood, who has been a finalist six times, and is deserving.
9) WR Cliff Branch….Tough choice over my hero, Drew Pearson, but Branch’s speed, like Del Shofner, Bob Hayes, Don Maynard, Paul Warfield and Harold Jackson…made a difference.
10) RB OJ Anderson….SB MVP, and only the eighth runner to cross over 10,000 rushing yrds when he retired.
11) SS John Lynch….Though I like Woodson and Harrison more, his finalist nominations should put him in.
12) OG Alan Faneca….Has the finalist nominations and accolades to put him in.
13) RB Edgerrin James….All purpose back.
14) WR Hines Ward….Won’t get in, but gets my vote anyway.
15) DE Leslie O’ Neil….With pass rushers getting in this decade, he is the next in line.
16) HC Tom Flores….Coached on every Raider Champion…tough choice over Don Coryell, who has the most finalist nominations amongst coaches.
17) HC Clark Shaughnessy….Three time finalist, and innovative on BOTH sides of the ball…a tough choice over two time champion Buddy Parker.
18) Contributor/Pro Player Personnel Jack Vainisi,
GB
19) Contributor/Pro Player Personnel Dick Hailey, PITT
20) Contributor/Player Rep and Advocate Bernie Parrish, CLEV … RIP
As usual there will be a November cutdown of moderns to 25 (Nov 26th 1p NFL Network) and to 15 finalists in early January. As to special class of seniors coaches and contributors Hall announced in the summer there would be cut down to semifinalist in November but no confirmed date of that announcement and whether final 15 would be announced in January or not until after Hall selection committee meets and elects moderns day before SB
Thanks Tony, Andy, Paul and Anthony…Do you guys accept donations like the Pro Football Journal Site ?
Jack Vainisi was someone not even on my radar screen for the HoF, but looking up his credentials, I can definitely see a case for him. Hiring Vince Lombardi and drafting what would be the nucleus of the 60s Packer dynasty era squads is a pretty solid argument in his favor.
Dick Haley appears to have distinguished himself as Director of Player Personnel for the Steelers during the 70s and 80s, though he didn’t seem to catch lightning in a bottle in the same role with the Jets in the 90s and 00s. When was he Player a personal Analyst for the Dolphins, and what role did he have building rosters? Just curious.
Player Personnel Analyst. Damn autocorrect.
Just hoping that Tagliabue, Modell and Kraft don’t get in, but I think these types of guys, especially owners, is why this “Centennial” Class was created. Despite contributors possibly overshadowing this great class, I am confident, the 15 players will capture the public and press’s imagination !
I doubt panel would put in Kraft or Modell but Tagliabue is a real possibility as are Art McNelly, George Young or Steve Sabol
Will be interesting to see if any QBs, past or present will get in this upcoming class. As I listed above, I believe Conerly should get in, but many people believe it should be Ken Anderson.
I like Anderson. He was a great athlete, who deserves discussion, but his overall won/lost record like Eli Manning, was not very stellar.
Yes, he had to play in the same division as the great Steelers, but he also could have led the Bengals to division titles over the Steelers in 1976 and 77, but failed to deliver in two critical regular season games those years.
That’s why I wouldn’t put him in the HOF…Other than the great win over the Chargers in the 81/82 AFC Championship game, he just never won enough BIG games…
Then who else ?
Tommy Thompson, Plunkett and Simms were part of two NFL/World Championships, Tobin Rote was an NFL and AFL Champion, and Jack Kemp won two AFL titles…
Do they get a shot over Gabriel, Brodie or AFL champ Hadl ?
There may not be any QB making this expanded class.
Anderson was NFL MVP, OPOY, 3x all pro selection, led league in passing ratings 4x passing yards 2x, I would view as most qualified QB to be considered
Counting postseason wins, there are only four QBs who are Hall eligible with over 100 career wins.
Donovan McNabb leads this list with 107.
Followed by Simms, Krieg and Bledsoe with 101.
McNair has 96, with Anderson and Palmer with 93.
Though not Hall eligible of course, Alex Smith and Russell Wilson are approaching these numbers as well.
Given that Krieg,Bledsoe, McNair, Palmer, Smith are not getting in, I wouldn’t put much weight on career wins
to me anderson is the top senior qb out there my ques is is there anyone close to him
Conerly and Simms were winners. If Anderson gets in, it’s because he is a passer, like Fouts, Moon, Marino and Jurgenson.
simms i agree on conerly not so much
I’m actually not big on Charlie Conerly or Phil Simms for the HoF. They both rank about HoVG range or worse in Chase Stuart’s and Kiran Rasaretnam’s systems:
Conerly: 44th all time in Stuart’s rankings (the only HoFers close by are Bobby Layne at 42 and Bob Griese at 49, both of whom have two titles), 38/36/23 for best 4/7/10 year stretch in Rasaretnam’s rankings (just below the bottom group of HoF QBs such as Jim Kelly).
Simms: 82nd all time for Stuart and 60/42/33 for Rasaretnam, which is well below any QBs with two titles (if you credit him as such).
Links:
http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-qb-of-all-time-v-part-ii-career-rankings/
http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html#sthash.lSVVvetB.dpuf
I’m actually not big on Charlie Conerly or Phil Simms for the HoF. They both rank about HoVG range or worse in Chase Stuart’s and Kiran Rasaretnam’s systems:
Conerly: 44th all time in Stuart’s rankings (the only HoFers close by are Bobby Layne at 42 and Bob Griese at 49, both of whom have two titles), 38/36/23 for best 4/7/10 year stretch in Rasaretnam’s rankings (just below the bottom group of HoF QBs such as Jim Kelly).
Simms: 82nd all time for Stuart and 60/42/33 for Rasaretnam, which is well below any QBs with two titles (if you credit him as such).
I tried providing links, but it put my reply in moderation limbo. Will try listing them separately.
Link to Stuart’s system:
http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-qb-of-all-time-v-part-ii-career-rankings/
Link to Rasaretnam’s system (not updated since the mid-2000s likely because the author died):
http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html#sthash.lSVVvetB.dpuf
I’m actually not big on W-L for QBs, any more than I am for W-L for pitchers in baseball. The reason is that it tells you at least as much about the quality of teammates surrounding the player as about the QB (or pitcher) in question, perhaps more. Which is why I prefer stats adjusted for era (coupled with film study to some extent for QBs). Football in particular is very teammate-dependent, arguably even more than in baseball.
There is no question that some QBs with mediocre-to-crummy stats have gotten in the HoF, and all have multiple titles won except for Joe Namath and Ken Stabler (the latter strikes me as a mistake).
Hey Bachslunch…Clark Judge at TOFN, is wondering if you and Rasputin, along with myself, want to take part in a panel discussion, as reader/guests on who the 15 senior/coaches/Contributors should be for this Centennial Class…If you can read Clark’s thread about Randall Cunningham…it will detail what he is talking about…I hope you read this to RASPUTIN
Brian — sure, sounds good. Note that I’m horrifically non-tech savvy, though, among other issues. Probably should chat with Clark via email to see what’s involved.
Don’t worry Paul, I am sticking to this thread until the next new one, just soaking in the site, and got to type happy.
No problem, after months of few posts we created a fresh new topic for class of 2020 to collect all new posts and discussion there instead of jumping around various topics from 2019 election
I understand what you’re saying Paul, but despite the talent or production of a Terrell Owens, I don’t see him in the same way as I do a Paul Warfield, or Lance Alworth or Don Hutson, HOF Receivers who transcended their statistics and didn’t whine or cry like Owens about being a first ballot choice. All Hall of Fame Players ARE not the same. Yes, Floyd Little is a Hall of famer, but he is no dominant player like Jim Brown. To me, first ballot HOFers should always be obvious and unflinching, not debated like other great players.
wont be posting here a while have to handle some personel stuff
Hope it’s nothing bad, Robert.
It’s not I’ll be on vacation till 11/24
Haha…A little to quiet on here. I know the Blue Ribbon Committee has alot to think about this week, but I hope they defer to candidates who have the most finalist nominations, because over the years, many voters wanted then in at some point.
1 Bob Kuechenberg 8 Times Finalist
2 Charlie Conerly 7 Time
3 LC Greenwood 6 Time
4 John Lynch 6 Time Modern
5 Don Coryell 5 Time Coach
6 Alan Faneca 4 Time Modern
7 Lester Hayes 4 ? Time
Others stuck at three, including Clark Shaughnessy
How Players like Slater, Dilweg, Lewellen and Wistert didn’t get in is beyond me.
That’s certainly one strategy, but another one is those advocating for deserving candidates (with multiple 1st team all pro or all decade team selections) who have never been finalists, hence never had their case even considered, for example Drew Pearson.
BTW blue ribbon panel will not be considering Lynch or Faneca who are still modern candidates and will be considered by the full selection committee as per normal process.
In regards to Slater, Dilweg, Lewellen and Wistert, its very possible as many as all four get selected, would be major surprise if at least 2-3 are not elected by the blue ribbon panel as they represent the best and most likely pre 1950 candidates and if panel is serious about representing the 100 yr history the league, the first thirty years better be included, otherwise whats the point of the whole exercise?
Great points Paul…If my numbers are correct, there are five modern candidates with more than three finalist nominations
Lynch…6
Faneca…4
Boselli…3
Bruce…3
James…3
Which means they’re chances are very high, sooner rather than later…
Decisions For The Blue Ribbon Committee…
Kuechenberg…8
Conerly….7
Greenwood…6
Coryell….5
Hayes….4
Shaughnessy…3
Jacoby….3
Speedie…3
Of those seniors you mentioned kuechenberg greenwood Jacoby Hayes get my highest support I could go either way on conerly shaugnessy coryell speedie
Wistert and Slater get excellent support also
Speaking of the first 30 years of NFL Football…
My Ten Pre-1950s HOF Candidates
1 Al Nesser…Powerful player from a great football family
2 Duke Slater…Also on my overall list
3 Tony Latone…In the 20s, had more rushing yards and TDs than Red Grange !
4 Lavvie Dilweg…More than 20 interceptions, 12 offensive TDs
5 Verne Lewellen…First to ever score more than 50 TDs
6 Ox Emerson…Great blocker
7 Al Wistert…Another great blocker
8 Ed Sprinkle…Nasty pass rusher
9 Jim Benton…Second leading receiver behind Don Hutson in the 40s
10 Ken Kavanaugh…50 TDs Receiving off 162 catches !
Excellent choices brian
Lots of great opinions and football history lovers on this site. Robert do you think the players that have the most finalist nominations should be the first to clear the board, or believe the first team all decade selections have the inside track ? Or should accolades and postseason/championships be the deciding factor ?
I only suggested a Pre-50s team, because with the scrutiny this Blue Ribbon Committee is going to face, maybe these players are the safest bets, simply because since most of them are forgotten, the Hall can truly become a time machine and not only give them a renewed chance at the spotlight, and respect from younger generations, but absorb as well, some of the spotlight that the contributors might have if the picks are “controversial”…
What bothers me is when you only have ten senior choices, lots of great teammates cancel each other out and I firmly believe, like you guys have said all along, that it’s unlikely that teams will have multiple players among the ten, or even fifteen total spots…
Like I have suggested on other sites, it would be cool if an additional coach could slide into a contributor slot, but that’s a tough call.
The fact that we are getting 10 seniors+3 contributors+2 coaches is a huge step forward in my mind, not going to question the number as that moves 15 candidates from the senior/contributors pool which only helps to advance the chances for everyone into the future even those who will remain unselected in 2020. Personally although I have my favorites and predictions, and a hope that pre 1950 is well represented, at this point given the backlogs any 15 selected would be a huge improvement on current situation. For example given the issues we have discussed perhaps Chuck Howley is not selected, but removing 10 other deserving seniors only greatly improves his selection in a future year.
And frankly the only controversial picks would be among the contributors: Tagliabue, Kraft or Modell and frankly the only one I see likely to be serious contender is Tagliabue. While I fully understand the case against him, it does seem to be more of a media creation than public scorn, and reality is he has been a finalist before so clearly has his supporters. If some in the media, especially voters, decide to make the whole selection of the special class of 15 tainted because one of only 6 NFL commissioners and who served 16 years during incredible growth of the league is selected, that would in my mind be vindictive and petty of them.
Id say Brian all decade and then finalists
Great points earlier Paul. Other than Owners and Commissioners, this is still a great player/coach class and great opportunity to end some much needed gridlock/logjams. Though I will still feel bad for many seniors/moderns not elected, like you said, It will make it easier for their candidacies down the road, while giving this large group a welcoming spotlight.
I’ve always supported Mac Speedie’s candidacy and still do, and lately I’ve been looking hard at Jim Benton, who was the 2nd best WR through much of Hutson’s career. But then there’s this:
Players to lead the NFL in career receiving yardage
Ray Flaherty 1932 HOF (first year such stats were recorded)
Luke Johnsos 1935
Don Hutson 1937 HOF
**Billy Howton 1963**
Raymond Berry 1965 HOF
Don Maynard HOF 1968 (mostly AFL) HOF
Charlie Joiner 1986 HOF
Steve Largent 1988 HOF
James Lofton 1992 HOF
Jerry Rice 1995 HOF
Since Hutson grabbed the title in 1937, a few years after they started recording the stat, every man to hold the career receiving record is in the Hall of Fame except for Billy Howton. Unless you exclude mostly AFL guys Maynard and Lance Alworth, in which case Harold Jackson held the NFL title for a while. But Howton held it outright when he retired in 1963. He also passed Hutson to hold the receptions record. Howton likely missed out on All Decade honors because his career straddled decades, but at 4 Pro Bowls and 2 first team AP All Pro selections his accolades are solid for a WR of that era. He also won two receiving titles, including his rookie year of 1952 with 1,231 yards in a 12 game season, and led the league with 12 receiving TDs in 1956.
Howton’s rookie record of 13 TDs stood until Randy Moss finally broke it in 1998 in a 16 game season. That’s 46 years!
Another thing: Howton is 89 and still alive. A factor I consider is age/living status. I’d like to minimize how many of these posthumous inductions we have by getting people into Canton while they’re still able to enjoy it. Lest this expanded class proceeding become dreary, it’d be great if we could include several living players. Howton provides a golden opportunity to induct a deserving player who’s old but still alive.
Should add that Howton managed to set those records despite playing on mostly lousy teams. In his 12 year career his team only had one winning season.
Howton is one of my picks also, but there is lots of competition. Billy Wilson, Hugh Taylor, Kyle Rote and Harlon Hill were outstanding in the 50s. Rote had everything but speed.
Benton and Kavanaugh were the best of the 40s.
Hopefully, they don’t cancel each other out.
I am one of the few that doesn’t endorse Mac Speedie. He was an AAFC star, with only 33 TDs.
What’s helps him was adding to a dominant team.
Though I love Drew Pearson, his 48 TDs were too few as well, but what a clutch player !!
Branch, Harold Jackson and Del Shofner were the speed demons. With Madden and Wolf on board, Branch could get the nod.
People shouldn’t count out Sterling Sharpe as well.
After Terrell Davis, another high production/short career player is likely.
Agreed with Brian 100% on speedie I’ve been.high on Benton and howler also
Speaking of Harlon Hill, I read he tore his Achilles during his fifth season and like most players, couldn’t recover, but like Sterling Sharpe, George Sauer Jr, Warren Wells and former Seahawk speedster, Daryl Turner, had Outstanding, very short careers.
I can’t believe Bachslunch that you endorse Mac Speedie but not Ottis Anderson ?
Haha…just needling…
Another reason to endorse Billy Howton…
When Howton joined a good Cleveland team in 1959, he played that lone season before being let go by ornery Paul Brown, who let go of alot of great players including Mac Speedie…Many believe it was because he represented the players union.
Howton joined a TERRIBLE Dallas expansion team and gave them the ability and leadership they desperately needed.
Teaming up with speedster Frank Clarke, another Paul Brown discard, as well as super underrated Don Perkins in the backfield, Howtons dependable receiving made Dallas and exciting, passing offensive team that put fans in the Cotton Bowl seats, and I believe FORCED Lamar Hunt’s AFL Texans to leave for Kansas City.
Though the Chiefs won the 62 AFL Championship, and had a great receiver themselves with Chris Burford, they mostly ran the football and couldn’t win the city of Dallas over from this young, up and coming Cowboy team that threw the football with Howton moving the chains, Clarke being the deep threat and Perkins protecting his QBs…
Yes, Billy Howton helped Dallas become an NFL Juggernaut
“Yes, Billy Howton helped Dallas become an NFL Juggernaut”
Never heard that stated before, best season when he was on that team from 1960-1963 is when they went 5-8-1, hardly a juggernaut.
There was a lot more behind why the Cowboys stayed in Dallas and the Texans moved to KC, than the play or performances on the field.
Howton may have a case for the PFHOF, but his years in Dallas won’t make that case for him.
You’re right Paul, but without Howton’s contributions to the Cowboys offence, would Landry have been retained ?
Would the Texans have stayed in Dallas, out drawing the Cowboys ?
Would Clarke and Don Meredith, have continued to develop ?
I don’t believe so.
Just love good debate.
Maybe the Cowboys would have developed with or without Howton, especially with Clarke and Perkins but his leadership had to have helped.
Perkins along with Matt Snell and Cookie Gilchrist, were the best blocking backs of the 1960s…
Since the Cowboys had an exciting offence and the Texans left for KC, maybe owner Clint Murchison felt Landry had all the time he needed to make the Cowboys a winner though it took seven years.
Some people feel Murchison should be in the HOF…I don’t know about that, but I believe one thing…Murchison knew who REALLY killed John F Kennedy.
I think its a real stretch to suggest Howton’s contributions had that impact on the future of the Cowboys and Landry, and this is coming from someone who has a real strong understanding and appreciation of the Cowboys history. If anyone is underappreciated for their role and contribution, especially in the leadership area, on those early Cowboys teams it was LeBaron who was actually the starter in 1960-61. I am not meaning to disregarding Howton’s time in Dallas, but I think your overstating his impact to the future of the organization and the impactof his time there on his own PFHOF case.
Unfortunately the pre 1970s receivers have largely been ignored and dismissed (same can be said to some degree for the 70s WRs) by the increased role and huge jump in stats by the 1980s to present WRs in the passing dominated offenses of the league. A number of deserving pre 1980s WRs (including previous career record holders, all decade players, and those with multiple all pro selections) have been bypassed for election, perhaps with this larger class and in future elections some will be addressed but likely as a group it will likely remain poorly represented.
Mac Speedie excelled in 3 different pro leagues and belongs in Canton, but since this special Centennial class is about honoring the NFL and he only played in the NFL for 3 years, maybe this isn’t the right year to induct someone on the “It’s the PRO Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL HoF” argument.
Great point Rasputin…
I blame Paul Brown, who gave up on Speedie, Howton, Frank Clarke, and Bobby Mitchell !
Not to mention he could have signed Paul Flatley and Chris Burford to help Len Dawson or Milt Plum, who he gave up on.
Brown could have kept Babe Parilli, and let YA Tittle and John Unitas get away !!
He also could have had Doak Walker and Dick LeBeau, but let them go to Detroit !
He let go of Jim Marshall, and let Willie Davis, Bill Quinlan, and Henry Jordan go to the Packers !
He gave Baltimore Art Donovan, Bert Rechichar and future coach Don Shula…I already mentioned Unitas !
With the Bengals he let go of Charlie Joiner and Bill Bergey and let Mike Reid leave to become a songwriter…
The Best Coach of All Time or the Most Overrated ?
I’ve always been flabbergasted that Billy Howton isn’t in the HoF. Rasputin outlines his case really well above.
One other thing in his favor — he was president of the NFLPA and was instrumental in helping set up the players pension fund.
Howton is also the poster boy for players on bad teams getting short shrift by the HoF (see Claude Humphrey for another example until recently). He never played on a good team, being traded from the Packers just before they got good. He bounced to the Browns and ended up with the fledgling Cowboys, likely because of his union activism.If memory serves, those early Cowboy teams had several union active players dumped in their laps.
Got carried away…Brown even let Atkins go to the Bears, for his belching…He also handled Jim Brown wrong and never punished him for not blocking. He conceded and flared Brown out for passes. Then lossed his team. The Browns should have won more championships with him or Modell, who I hope never makes the Hall.
Okay, I will stop…haha
Here’s my preferred 10 seniors list.
Player; Position; Years; Primary Team
LaVern Dilweg; End; 1926-34; Packers -6 first team All Pro selections by various outfits; Last first team 1920s All Decade member not yet in; won 3 NFL titles; great on both defense and offense, the PFRA said that at the time he retired has was “probably the best end in NFL history”.
Grover “Ox” Emerson; Guard; 1931-38; Lions – 6 first team All Pro selections by various outfits; Last first team 1930s All Decade member not yet in; won 1 NFL title; his blocking helped the Lions rush for an NFL record 2,885 yards in a 12 game season in 1936, which stood until the 1972 Dolphins broke it in a 14 game season; they still hold the record for most rushing yards in a game with 426 against Pittsburgh in 1934; he also helped anchor a great defense that in 1934 only allowed 59 points and posted 7 shutouts.
Jim Benton; End; 1938-47; Rams – 2 first team AP All Pro selections; 1 NFL All Star game (game was suspended for most of his career); All Decade 1940s; won 2 NFL titles; 2 receiving titles; was the seasonal leader in receptions, yards, yards/reception, and touchdowns at various points; led the league with 19.9 yards/reception as a rookie and was named an All Star; in 1945 led the NFL with 1,067 receiving yards despite only playing 9 games; had 303 receiving yards against the Lions, setting a single game record that stood for 40 years; retired second only to Don Hutson in career receiving yards.
Al Wistert; Tackle; 1943-1951; Eagles – 4 first team AP All Pro selections; One of two first team 1940s All Decade members not yet in; won 2 NFL titles; most decorated blocker on a line that paved the way for Steven Van Buren to claim the career rushing record; his teams dominated statistically on both offense and defense, with the 1944 Eagles still ranking 2nd in NFL history in fewest rushing yards allowed with 558.
Bruno Banducci; Guard; 1944-54; 49ers – 2 first team AP All Pro selections and 2 first team AAFC selections; 1 Pro Bowl (which started in 1950, late in his career); The other first team 1940s All Decade member not yet in.
Ed “The Claw” Sprinkle; End; 1944-55; Bears – 4 Pro Bowls, all in the 1950s; there was no Pro Bowl for the first half of his career otherwise he probably would have gone to more since he was named 1940s All Decade; 1 NFL title; quick and powerful; one of the first feared pass rushers soon after the T formation took hold and the NFL resembled modern football; reputation as one of the most violent men in the NFL; called the “meanest man in football” on the cover of a 1950 Colliers magazine, was known for hard forearm blows to QBs and others in the nose, jaw or throat, legal at the time, earning him the “Claw” nickname; knocked two Giants RBs out of the game in the 1946 championship, one with a separated shoulder and the other with a broken nose; George Hallas called Sprinkle, “the greatest pass rusher I’ve ever seen.”
Billy Howton; Wide Receiver; 1952-63; Packers – 2 first team AP All Pro selections; 4 Pro Bowls; retired in 1963 having passed Don Hutson to set career NFL receiving records in yards and receptions; 2 receiving titles, one in his rookie season; set the rookie receiving TD record with 13 in a 12 game season, which stood for 46 years until Randy Moss broke it in 1998 in a 16 game season; accomplished his statistical feats despite mostly playing on bad teams and only having one winning season; is still alive at age 89.
Chuck Howley; Outside Linebacker; 1958-73; Cowboys – 5 first team AP All Pro selections and 6 Pro Bowls spread out over 7 different seasons; 1 Super Bowl title; first defensive player to earn Super Bowl MVP; first team All Decade OLB on John Turney’s 1965-75 team, alongside legends Dick Butkus and Bobby Bell, and ahead of HoFers Chris Hanburger, Dave Robinson, and Dave Wilcox; key founding member of the Cowboys’ legendary Doomsday Defense; changed the game as the father of the weakside LB position; athletic, fast, and tough, Howley routinely made impactful splash plays; his 43 combined takeaways rank 2nd in NFL history among OLBs behind only Jack Ham; member of the exclusive 20/20 sack/interception club with 26.5 sacks and 25 interceptions; after earning MVP in SB V in his 12th season by accounting for multiple turnovers, the ageless wonder was considered for MVP the following year in SB VI: The 35 year old Howley set the tone for the game when he killed an early Miami drive by recovering a fumble. Late in the game Miami was driving again when the score was only 17-3 and a TD would have made it a one score margin with several minutes left. Howley intercepted Griese and returned it to the red zone to set up the Dallas TD that put the game away by a crushing 24-3 margin. Big difference. The 1971 Cowboys were the only team to hold their SB opponent without a TD until the 2018 Patriots finally repeated the feat against the Rams. During the SB VI broadcast Pat Summerall said that when he had asked Dolphins the past few days whom on the Dallas roster they respect most the most frequent answer was “Chuck Howley”; Tom Landry said, “I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anybody better at linebacker than Chuck Howley.” Still alive at 83. Most deserving candidate not yet in.
Cliff Harris (“Captain Crash”); Safety; 1970-1979; Cowboys – 3 first team AP All Pro selections; 6 Pro Bowls; only first team 1970s defensive All Decade team member not yet in; 2 Super Bowl wins; won 5 NFC championships; one of the hardest hitters in NFL history; revolutionized the position; In SB XII Harris knocked Rick Upchurch, the Broncos’ biggest playmaker up to that point in the game, unconscious with a clean but brutal hit as he did to many players over the years; Rival Redskins coach George Allen described Harris as a “rolling ball of butcher knives”. HoF safety Larry Wilson said, “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.” Though more hitter than ball hawk he accounted for 57 combined takeaways in the regular season and playoffs; Anchored the secondary for Doomsday, consistently one of the league’s best pass and overall defenses; In SB XII Dallas held the Broncos to only 35 net passing yards, still a SB record; Denver QB Craig Morton, who had just torched the Steelers and Raiders with passer ratings of 100.6 and 102.9 respectively, was held by Doomsday to a 0.0 rating; the defense ranked in the top 8 every year he played and in the top 5 seven years; The Dallas pass defense ranked in the top 8 each of Harris’ final five seasons and the top 5 in his final three, hitting 2nd in 1977 and 3rd in 1979. In 1980, the first year after he retired, it plunged to 16th and to 21st the year after that, only cracking the top 10 twice over the 80s; A collegiate sprinter who was fast enough to average 28.4 yards/kickoff return for the Cowboys in 1971. Still alive at 71.
Sterling Sharpe; Wide Receiver; 1988-94; Packers – 3 first team AP All Pro selections; 5 Pro Bowls; statistically dominant receiver on mostly mediocre teams; career was cut short by injury but in his 7 years he led the NFL in various receiving metrics 6 times; one of only a few players in history to win the receiving “Triple Crown”, leading the NFL in receptions, yards, and TDs in 1992; set an NFL single season reception record of 108 in 1992, and broke his own record with 112 the next year; posted the then second highest receiving TD total in history with 18 his final season in 1994; had over 1,100 yards in 5 of his 7 seasons; had 4 double digit TD seasons; His brother Shannon said at his own induction that Sterling was a better player than he was, probably the most intelligent thing he’s ever said; By my eyeball test Sterling was one of the Big Three WRs of the 90s, along with Jerry Rice and Michael Irvin; still alive at 54.
These aren’t necessarily my picks for the 10 best players not in, but it takes into account the constellation of relevant circumstances surrounding this class. This list would see all the first team All Decade members prior to the 1970s inducted, along with the only defensive 70s first team member in Harris, clearing the way for the focus to shift to Drew Pearson. It would induct the most overall deserving player in Howley. It makes sure every career receiving yards record holder since 1937 is in.
It includes four living players, two of them very old, in time for them to be notified of their inductions and hopefully enjoy them.
It covers every senior eligible decade, even overlapping in a chronological chain until the brief gap between Harris and Sharpe (I didn’t consciously set out to do that), fairly representing the NFL’s first century.
Okay, here’s my wish list (and probably impractical) 10 Seniors/2 Coaches/3 Contributors for the makeup class:
Lavvie Dilweg
Duke Slater
Verne Lewellen
Ox Emerson
Al Wistert
Mac Speedie
Chuck Howley
Maxie Baughan
Billy Howton
Del Shofner
Art McNally
Steve Sabol
George Young
Buddy Parker
Clark Shaughnessy
It’s heavy on pre-1950s players and corrects most of the glaring errors there. The other four are still alive as of this writing and very deserving. Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert, Speedie, and Shofner are on all-decade teams.
I have also gone old school with the coaches, as I’m not sufficiently excited about the more recent and living options available. The contributors are the most deserving ones available, one of them living.
A more realistic grouping that still fully contains candidates I support would likely include:
Lavvie Dilweg
Duke Slater
Al Wistert
Maxie Baughan
Chuck Howley
Cliff Branch
Cliff Harris
Randy Gradishar
Billy Howton
Del Shofner
Art McNally
Steve Sabol
Paul Tagliabue
Don Coryell
Clark Shaughnessy
This way, two Contributors are living, as are 6 Seniors. Five Seniors are all-decade team members.
Good lists there bach as well as your previous detailed profiles.
Of the two complete lists you propose, I would be pleased with either if they ended up as elected ones.
With 24 voters it’s going to be hard to predict exactly all 15 but you certainly have a good number of them and we can only hope a similar outcome from the voters. I am especially a very strong supporter of Lavvie Dilweg, Duke Slater, Verne Lewellen, Ox Emerson, Al Wistert, many because I worry this may be the last best chance for the pre 1950 candidates and having 5 of them out of 10 would in my mind be ideal, while still leaving 5 slots to the most deserving later era candidates.
Great job there!
As usual, great lists…
Everyone I have read or talked to, is sold on Chuck Howley…Let’s hope Rick Gosselin gets on board
It’s sad that we have to hope the “Dallas representative” gets on board with Chuck Howley, Brian, but I agree whole heartedly.
Like I told Clark yesterday, if any teams deserve
multiple players on this list, it’s Dallas, GB, Oak and Pitts
This Dallas Dilemma, has to be tough on Rick because he believes so much in first team All Decade choices getting in, and rightfully so, but Howley is so ENDORSED…
I listened to the SB V NBC Radio Broadcast of the game, and even BEFORE the teams had kicked off, color analyst Al DeRogatis was telling listeners about Chuck Howley.
Everyone loves Tony Romos ability to diagnose and predict upcoming plays when he broadcasts, but Al DeRogatis for 60s, 70s, NBC, did it first…
I am among the strongest advocates for Chuck Howley, but if a priority (and I say “IF” because we really don’t know for sure how all 24 voters feel) is for first team all decade, that would mean focus on Cliff Harris or Drew Pearson and the chances of two players from same team and overlapping eras among the 10 would seem to me very unlikely. I really think the panel will take a safer approach and recognize 10 players from range of teams and is easy to select and justify such picks. My hope is that any class of 10 seniors clears the room for Howley who has been among top candidates discussed in recent years and should then be well positioned for 2021 and beyond. If he is elected in 2020, I would be ecstatic but preparing myself for a more likely outcome.
The same argument is for Lewellen as well Paul.
It’s doubtful both he and Dilweg from the SAME team, much less 20s/30, era will get in at the same time. Looking at Bach’s and Rasputin’s lists, it’s possible for teams with multiple players, but they have to be over different decades and rules changes.
Even with a safer approach though, players with many finalist nominations should clear the board equally.
Yep its why on my lists Dilweg is there but not Lewellen, just thinking the “politics” will steer the blue ribbon panel in a safer path of distributing 10 slots across ten teams and several decades. Perhaps we will get an indication of that approach if or when the semifinalists from the panel initial voting are publicly released. And again any ten from the long list of very deserving candidates will be huge step forward.
My pref: dilweg slater benton wistert howley Dillon baughan shofner harris gradishar
Anyone want to hazard a guess who gets named tomorrow as part of the Top 10 RB’s of the first 100 years? I guess that special committee is picking them? I heard Belichek was part of it.
Really hard to pick only 10! I’m thinking jim Brown, OJ Simpson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Marshall Faulk, LaDainian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson should make it. That’s 8 right there!
Others Red Grange, Eric Dickerson, Bronko Nagurski, Lenny Moore, Joe Perry, Tony Dorsett, Franco Harris, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell. Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin, Jim Taylor, Hugh McElhenny
Not sure if they are looking for best career or most prolific talent. A little hard to compare FB to RB too IMO. I’d add Riggins and Csonka to a FB list but they don’t make RB list where other FB’s do. .
In talent…
Simpson
Brown
Sanders
Sayers
Payton
Harris
McElhenny
Van Buren
Smith
Allen
The All-time 100 year RB list comes out tomorrow. I’ll hazard a guess. lol
Marion Motley, Lenny Moore, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, OJ Simpson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Marshall Faulk, LaDainlian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson.
I had to leave Red Grange off list no one even knows his stats but seems like he should be included and so should rushing leader Emmitt Smith and Earl Campbell and Dorsett must see TV. I know sounds crazy but couldn’t see leaving Sayers off even they I probably would. just not enough slots. !!!!!!!! I hope they don’t put Bettis or Dickerson on list but they could.
They really should do a seperate one for FB’s. Hard to leave some FB’s off the list like Bronko Nagurski and Jim Taylor.
Also from what I know of Hugh McElhenny he was a great talent who provided tons excitement.
Dickerson
Peterson
Faulk
Riggins
Sims
Andrews
Tomlinson
Galimore
Matson should be in first group
The backs in my second group are closely behind the first list…Matson should be on first list.
When I mention talent I mean ability to run, catch and block as well like Emmitt Smith, Marcus Allen, Faulk, Walter Payton.
Payton is the best of all time because Brown couldn’t block
OK just found out 12 players are on the list. I’d include Emmitt Smith an Red Grange (out of respect for what he did for Pro Football) otherwise I ‘d include Earl Campbell. Sorry Dickerson.
Damn, I forgot Thurman Thomas and Roger Craig and Chris Johnson and James Brooks and…
Very subjective I know, so many RB’s I like who didn’t make HOF. I loved to watch Wibert Montgomery, Billy Sims, Ottis OJ Anderson and even Mercury Morris. I guess I’m picking the ones I mostly think are politically correct. LOL
Dorsett had great speed but was overrated…not a blocker, easy to tackle and fumbled to much like Dickerson at critical times.
It’s all very subjective. I guess my list is mostly politically correct. lol Players who excited me to watch, some with HOF talent were guys like Larry Brown, Otis Armstrong, Mercury Morris, Calvin Hill, Lydell Mitchell, Wilbert Montgomery, Billy Sims, OJ Anderson, James Brooks, Jamal Anderson, Eric Metcalf ect.. So much great talent that fell HOF short.
Agree that fumbles are really bad and kill a great reputation.
People forget the speed Riggins had in his 20s.
Franco Harris very underrated. Had great size, speed and excellent receiver. Jim Taylor had more heart than everyone but Payton. Lenny Moore was a great receiver who could do both…Bo Jackson was the only back who made me hold my breath !
Injured too soon. Watters and Ottis Anderson were great early, like Campbell…
Peterson has great talent but doesn’t block or catch…I blame his coaches because he should be great in all three phases. Barry Sanders at least should have been a great receiver to, but wasn’t thrown to…guess like Jim Brown, he needed to rest, though Brown was a great pass catcher.
Most overrated…
Paul Hornung
Red Grange
Eric Dickerson
Tony Dorsett
Adrian Peterson
Floyd Little HOF ??
Shaun Alexander
Lesean McCoy
Chuck Muncie
Most underrated
Tony Latone…better numbers, fewer games than Red Grange
Don Perkins
Walt Garrison
Tony Nathan
Warrick Dunn
Timmy Brown…fumbled, but MR EXCITEMENT
Paul Lowe
Dan Towler
Wilbert Montgomery…Emmitt Smith before Emmitt Smith
Greg Pruitt
John David Crow
Freeman McNeil
Eddie George
Emerson Boozer…Great blocker and Emmitt Smith of the 60/70s
“I guess that special committee is picking them?”
Yes there is a blue ribbon panel selecting the 100th anniversary team, BUT that is a not same blue ribbon panel voting on the special extended class of 2020 seniors, contributors and coaches-some folks are on both, but NOT same group
12 RBs: Jim Brown, OJ Simpson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, LaDainian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson, Red Grange, Eric Dickerson, Bronko Nagurski, Tony Dorsett, Earl Campbell.
I mostly agree with Paul’s list except I don’t believe in counting still active players because their careers are still in flux. So instead of Peterson and maybe Tomlinson (who was great, but maybe a little recentist), I might add Gale Sayers, Larry Csonka, OJ Simpson (I know, but..), or Steve Van Buren, with a lean toward Simpson and Van Buren factoring durability and rushing titles.
Whoops, I forgot Paul did include Simpson. So Van Buren and a toss up between Gale Sayers and Tomlinson.
Tomlinson and Sayers was my battle for 12th spot
I might have given Sayers the edge because his singular type of greatness would complement this roster, but then I remembered he was on the 75th Anniversary Team as a kick returner and a HB, so maybe returner is a better way to get him onto this roster while leaving room for someone like Tomlinson.
BTW, this is a radically different format from the more realistic roster size of the 75th team. Was there some surprise when the details were first announced? I’d imagine so, given all the forecasting articles I’ve read for several years about the upcoming 100th Anniversary team and what tweaks might be made to it since the last one, the assumption being it would basically follow the same format. Maybe the change is because last time they also did a 2-way team that covered more players.
I thought the 12 that were picked were very good choices except for one that was omitted. I would have chosen LaDanian Tomlinson. I would have replaced Dutch Clark. I would have also put Bronko Nagurski in before Clark as well. Don’t get me wrong, Clark had a great career for the time period, but I believe Tomlinson has to be in there. I was super psyched that both Motley and Moore were recognized. People in this post must not remember Dickerson the way that I do. He was a game changer and accelerated through the whole better than any back i have ever seen. Jim Brown and Walter Payon IMO are the two best backs ever, but neither hit a hole like Dickerson.
My phone has terrible auto correct. Thay should have benn “hole.” Also I loved The films of Van Buren and Motley. it was great to see footage of old time players.
Dickerson was a great runner, but didn’t block well and fumbled to much…Great, though overrated
Who were the 12 picks ? Didn’t see the show
Enough with the Dickerson overrated talk and why are we nitpicking his fumbling and blocking
Thats Right ! Enough nitpicking from me !!
Till Tuesday…haha
Tuesday would be even more interesting if the semifinalists voted by the blue ribbon panel are also announced
New thread that day Paul ?
Here’s the NFL’s RB list in the order they were announced:
JIm Brown
Emmitt Smith
Eric Dickerson
Barry Sanders
OJ Simpson
Gale Sayers
Dutch Clark
Steve Van Buren
Lenny Moore
Walter Payton
Marion Motley
Earl Campell
And they announced two of the coaches, Paul Brown and Bill Belichick (which is sort of weird since he’s also a voting panelist but oh well).
Solid list in my opinion. I would have replaced Marion Motley with Tony Dorsett though. My problem with Motley is that he didn’t play in the NFL long and it’s supposed to be an NFL list, not a pro football list. Otherwise I might have listed Herschel Walker, who was even more dominant in the USFL than Motley was in the AAFC, and who frankly did more in the NFL than Motley too. Certainly Dorsett did.
And I would have listed LaDainian Tomlinson instead of Lenny Moore, who was more of a receiver.
Tomlinson’s inclusion also would have forestalled criticism of the list including no 21st Century players, a grumbling narrative that’s starting to form and seems to be gaining traction.
Yep Brian, likely have initial post here that afternoon but prepare fresh new topic to pick up new discussions and debates
rumor has it that their will be plenty of 21st players including active players. I don’t think that will be an issue.
They’ve announced there are current players elsewhere on the roster, but the RB list is problematic. Aside from excluding all the 21st Century players, which has rubbed some the wrong way, my own criticism is that a ranking of the 12 greatest RBs in NFL history to celebrate the NFL’s 100th anniversary should consist entirely of players who were primarily NFL running backs.
Motley gained a total of 3,024 rushing yards and 26 rushing TDs in the AAFC but only 1,696 rushing yards and 5(!) rushing TDs in the NFL.
Lenny Moore never even ranked better than 8th(!) in rushing yards any year he played, though he did rank in the top 3 in receiving a few years.
You’re telling me they’re more deserving of a greatest NFL running back list than Tony Dorsett and LaDainian Tomlinson? The more I think about it the more glaring these errors seem.
Interesting that Belichick chose Paul Brown as the Greatest Coach of All Time.
Possibly, when Brown had Otto Graham.
But like I stated above, gave away too many great players to win any more Championships.
Many believe believe Belichick, Lombardi, Shula, Landry, Walsh, Noll and Halas were the Best.
Without the toughness of Charlie Conerly in NY, Lombardi wouldn’t have become a Head Coach because too many owners, including Wellington Mara, were wary of his explosive temper/Bi Polar nature.
My Greatest Coach was Weeb Ewbank of Balt/NYJ
Best Big Game Coach Ever…
Good points Brian my pick for greatest coach is George Stanley halas
Thanks Robert,…I think of Halas as well, he coached tough for decades
I hope one day the Hall recognizes Chuck Knox.
The man was a great coach who never had a great QB.
Any predictions on surprises among the 25 modern semi-finalists tomorrow with new names (besides the expected 1st time nominees)? others who have yet to make the list previous years?
HMm toughie perhaps Ben coates or Neil smith
Sam Mills?
Be nice to see players like Leslie O Neil, Albert Lewis, Eric Allen, Kent Hull and other borderline
seniors, finally get some traction.
Especially, O Neil, the best pash rusher in waiting…
Agreed with Brian 100%
borderline seniors?
Tomorrow is announcement of 25 modern candidate semi-finalists (no idea if or when special blue ribbon panel semi-finalists are announced)
What I meant was modern candidates like O Neil, Hull, etc running out of time before becoming part of the senior pool. If one or two could gain voting momentum, would be nice
That makes sense, voters usually pick up on their shrinking clock even if it doesn’t mean they get elected
There will be at least 8 new names compared to last year’s 25 semi finalists. Clearing space are not only the five players who were elected but also the three coaches who now find themselves on a different 100th Anniversary path.
Leslie O’Neal and Simeon Rice made the semi final cut for the 2018 Class and Albert Lewis was named for 2014 but hasn’t made it back since.
Who would you choose as another pash rusher to get in this years semi final cut BoKnows34 ?
O Neil, Rice or someone else ?
I’d like to see O’Neal, Rice, Neil Smith and John Abraham as four pass rushers in the 25.
If the modern era voters share the same sentiment to push all-decade team members, we could see someone like Neil Smith, Ben Coates, Gary Anderson, RIchmond Webb or Cornelius Bennett become a first-time semi-finalist. I would also love to see both Steve Wisniewski and Steve Tasker return to the final 25 (maybe Leslie O’Neal as well). Out of players who weren’t on all-decade teams, and haven’t been semi-finalists before, I’d say that Donovan McNabb, Eric Allen and Ricky Watters all have cases that would warrant discussion.
Good calls…I like Neil Smith but thought Abraham was to up and down.
Webb was a frequent Pro Bowler, but not much of a run blocker.
Eric Allen I believe, should get more attention.
Good Points Brian
I like Ben Coats and Steve Wisniewski- I thought both guys would have clearer paths to the HOF when they retired.
How about the nominees for the all time NFL 100. Nominees did not include Dolman, Bethea, Brazile or Hampton. It did include Sestack and Lipscomb. Two players that this site has mentioned but not enough for future senior recognition. I wonder if future nominees could get a boost from an exercise and recognition such as this.
PS- Sestack should have went in as the nominee over Floyd Little the year he was nominated as a senior finalist.
Panel picking 100th anniversary team much different then Hall senior committee and its 9 members so I don’t think a player not already in Hall who is a surprise pick for the team gets any momentum
Reminder 25 modern semi finalists at 1p today (no idea if and when 25 blue ribbon panel semifinalists will be announced)
Polamalu, Willis and Wayne
Plus Banks, Taylor, Watters and Bryant are new.
The rest are the same from last year I think…
O’Neil, Lewis, Allen, Hull didn’t make this cut, which is disappointing…
Heres the list:
S Steve Atwater.
LB Carl Banks.
DB Ronde Barber.
OT Tony Boselli.
WR Isaac Bruce.
S LeRoy Butler.
G Alan Faneca.
WR Torry Holt.
G Steve Hutchison.
RB Edgerrin James.
S John Lynch.
LB Clay Matthews.
LB Sam Mills.
S Troy Polamalu.
DE Simeon Rice.
DL Richard Seymour.
WR/ST Steve Tasker.
RB Fred Taylor.
LB Zach Thomas.
WR Hines Ward.
RB Ricky Watters.
WR Reggie Wayne.
LB Patrick Willis.
S Darren Woodson.
DT Bryant Young.
Congrats to all the new additions…
You were right about Mills Paul…
I know Tasker is great but where is Bill Bates ?
Is he in the senior pool now ?
Bates is still in modern era pool brian
At first glance looks like a good sound list, I will prepare a new fresh topic on this to continue our debates and discussions up to the reveal of the 15 finalists in early January-should have the new topic posted by tomorrow.
Nine new names compared to last year:
Polamalu, Wayne, Willis (first time eligibles)
Rice, Tasker (previous semi finalists who missed being named out last year)
Banks, Taylor, Watters, Young (Top 25 for the first time)
Previous semi finalists who didn’t make the cut: O’Neal, Lewis, Wisniewski.
Thanks Robert, Did Bates make the cut last year or 2018 ? He would have played for 30 years if the coaches would have let him…
Brian
Bill Bates has never made the cut to 25. As for Tasker this is his 7th time as a semi-finalist and the first since 2013.
I don’t believe Bates has ever been a semi-finalist
There are only 8 returning finalists from last year so we’ll see at least seven new names in the Top 15 compared to last year. Those eight will probably make the cut to 10 with Polamalu and one other.
Polamalu, Atwater, James, Boselli and Faneca is my prediction.
Thanks BoKnows…Information
Fred Taylor, Rickey Watters, Carl Banks, Clay Matthews, Simeon Rice, and Steve Tasker are the non-starters for me from this bunch. Would have preferred to see Albert Lewis and Steve Wisniewski before any of them.
Taylor, Watters, Young, and Banks seem to me to have benefited from removal of coaches (and a down year for 1st year eligible candidates), and I don’t see any of them getting much traction this year or in near futre. I am sticking with my earlier prediction of Polamalu, Atwater, James, Boselli and Faneca that I made in February, with Bruce or Seymour as possible surprises. Also very possible voters go for Hutchinson over Boselli. Let’s face it I never get all five right LOL
Final 15 prediction (Jan 2nd):
Steve Atwater
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
Alan Faneca
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
John Lynch
Troy Polamalu
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Zack Thomas
Reggie Wayne
Patrick Willis
Darren Woodson
According to Clark Judge, he thinks the Blue Ribbon Committee will cutdown in the next few weeks.
I’d take Wisniewski over tasker and Lewis over banks bachs
Once we see Boselli, Hutchinson and Faneca gain election, then we’ll likely see Webb, Hull and Wisniewski make the jump to Top 25. But there are running low on eligibility too.
Thanks for the update on the panel Brian, good to know as the PFHOF has made no further updates on the process since its initial announcement last August (not even the membership or change in voting status. I wonder if they will also announce their finalists (essentially those elected) in early January or hold off until Hall selection committee announcement after their final voting on moderns on Feb 1st?
He thinks it might be early Dec, but you’re right, they could wait till January.
Though I am curious of the process as well, I think it should be SB weekend. Will lessen the disappointment, while creating added excitement.
In terms of Matthew’s Taylor and rice who would you prefer instead bachs
After their retirements, alot of people thought Ellard and Wisniewski were locks but they have been ignored.
Maybe Ellards TD numbers and lack of a Championship hurt but he also played with average QBs…
I’d rather they announce it earlier. That way it would get more coverage and be less buried by the focus on the Super Bowl.
Original plan was for blue ribbon panel semifinalists end of November and finalists in early January but who knows perhaps Hall will wait until Feb 1 to announce both. BBHOF announces their veterans committee election results in December and BBWA vote month later
Blue ribbon panel is to meet when deciding on their finalists, with BillB on the group when is he going to be available to meet between now and SB?? LOL
Hi Paul- I know It is a different Blue Ribbon group, but I believe when it comes to Senior nominees, the more your name is associated with special recognitions, the better chance you have, i.e All decade Teams
Haha…by the time Taco Bill gets to vote, the division will be wrapped up with a bye
Just need clarification, Sterling Sharpe is in the senior pool ? I thought he was..
This could be Taskers year. There are kickers, a punter in, now it’s time for a great returner and a great gunner/coverage..
Mitchell/Hester/Woodson/Gray/Parrish might be the first returner soon, but Tasker should be the first coverage person in, and with this being a “special” class…you never know ?
Sharpe is In the senior’s pool
Oh I agree Bill, just noting that BillB and Madden were asked by 100th anniversary team panel to review and report on pre 1940 candidates, just wondering when the PFHOF blue ribbon panel meets to elect their 15 member special class if they will be advocates for some of the same players.
And it took years for the kickers to get in (including as repeated finalists) and Guy got in via the senior candidate process (via 5 voters not all 48-yes they all had final say but tend to support the committee process). So its never been easy, and still isn’t for any ST player to get elected. I just don’t see Tasker jumping all the way to election this year, especially when he would have to jump over a deserving 1st ballot player in TroyP and four returning final ten, all with multiple all pro selections and all decade team members. There clearly is strong continued support for Atwater, Boselli, Hutchinson and Faneca, plus Seymour and EJames among others. I just don’t see the 48 voters viewing Tasker or any other ST player that way-so deserving over others. Someday one might get in but will take just the right circumstances and timing.
The “special” class really refers to the blue ribbon panel and the 10 seniors, 2 coaches and 3 contributors, the 48 member selection committee will still elect the 5 moderns and I doubt they see any need to be special about who they elect, for example a ST player. There are going to be 10-12 very strong modern finalists and several who have advanced as far as one step away from election (final 10) in recent years, some repeatedly-look for those to be targeted for election and not some wildcard “special” selection.
Continuing our debate…
Your points are right Paul, but according to BoKnows34, this is Taskers seventh time making the semis, which means he has already bypassed numerous deserving players to get this far, so why not put him in ?
Yes the Offensive Line, Safety and Defensive tackle positions deserve more representation, especially offensive linemen but that’s always been the case.
With Owners/Contributors already getting in at a fast rate, it’s only fitting to add a least one great KO/Punt returner, other than Sayers, and one great coverage player…
If Marv Levy would have allowed Tasker to fight for a starting wide receiver job when he arrived from Houston, instead of holding him back for just special teams, I believe Tasker would have developed right along with Kelly and possibly, could already be in this Hall. I know…Big If
It’s a big jump from 25 to 5, not all candidates who are repeat semifinalists are eventually elected. I just think it would take a huge unanticipated step for 48 voters to overlook several returning final 10 candidates all of whom are all decade team members and multiple 1st team all pro players. He may have buzz among fans and on social media, I just don’t think that translates to voter interest and support
Well, let’s hope the voters don’t wait till it’s Devin Hester because though he may be one of the best returners ever, he wasnt a receiver or a defensive back like Woodson, Parrish, Mason, Sproles or Walker, guys who have cases either way.
Actually I think Hester may be the ST player who gets in first, certainly before a non returner in Tasker, he may not hold any major career return yard records but those 21 return TDs carry some serious weight
Happy to see Tasker return to the semifinalist stage! To me he is a bit of a wildcard in the sense that he’s not competing directly against another player at his position (I know he’s technically a WR, but he’s really a special teams player in the eyes of the voters). With nothing but layers on the list this time, there are a lot of positions with multiple representatives that are likely to either cancel each other out or fail to move forward because there are better eligible players at their position.
With that in mind, i think he’s in a better position to move to the next stage than Matthews, Mills and Banks (who are obviously not as good as Willis or Thomas), Taylor and Watters (who are not as good as James), Woodson and Butler, who are clearly 4th and 5th in the safety pecking order, Young, (who is definitely not at the same level as Seymour), and Ward, who is now once again the 4th best WR on the list. I think he also has a much better case than Simeon Rice, so I’m going to make the prediction that he’s a 1st time finalist this year.
As for the other guys who made it this time around after not making it in 2019:
– I think Polamalu and Willis are locks for the finalist list, with Wayne having a better than 50% chance as well.
– Rice is an underwhelming choice in my opinion. Smith and O’Neal are the clear top 2 pass rushers in the modern era pool, so I would have rather seen one of them. I’d probably put Rice behind Abraham in the pass rusher queue as well, but I suppose the hoice could have been worse.
– Young is an okay choice in my opinion. In terms of hybrid DE/DTs, I think he’s probably the 2nd or 3rd best one in the modern pool behind Seymour and pretty close to Justin Smith.
– Watters was a really good choice in my opinion. He doesn’t have the credentials that James has, but he’s well ahead of the rest of the RBs in the modern-era pool. He’s the only pure RB in the modern pool with 5 Pro Bowls, he has a Super Bowl ring, averaged over 100 yards from scrimmage/game in the playoffs, and it’s easy to forget that at the time of his retirement, he had the most rushing yards, total touchdowns and yards from scrimmage of any RB not currently in the hall of fame.
– Banks and Taylor were just bad choices. They are both one time Pro Bowlers who aren’t even one of the top 10 options at their position. You could certainly argue that they both should have made more Pro Bowls (especially in Taylor’s case), but claiming that a guy should have made 4 more Pro Bowls than they did is pretty flimsy logic for a hall of fame case.
At RB, Barber and Alexander at a minimum would have been much better choices. I’d also put him behind Walker, George, Holmes, DIllon, Portis and Lewis. I get that he finished high on the all-time rushing yards list, and injjuries robbed him of some great years, but how could anyone conceivably put a RB that NEVER finished in the top 5 in rushing yards in a season into the hall of fame?
At LB, I don’t even think Banks would make my top 25 modern candidates AT HIS POSITION. At OLB alone, Bennett, Porter, Swilling, Lloyd and Briggs are miles ahead of him, and if they were really keen on giving a LB in their last year of eligibility a chance, why not Wilber Marshall?
“(especially in Taylor’s case)…how could anyone conceivably put a RB that NEVER finished in the top 5 in rushing yards in a season into the hall of fame?”
I’ll do you one better. The geniuses behind the hyped up NFL’s 100th anniversary team included a RB in Lenny Moore who never finished in the top 8 in rushing yards, instead of a candidate like Tony Dorsett or LaDainian Tomlinson.
Lots of good points BSLO…
I take it Frank Gore wouldn’t make your list for the HOF ? …haha
I think Young was the equal of Seymour…Seymour did more things and has the rings, like underrated McGinest but Young was a better pash rusher.
Taylor had ability but wasn’t a big game performer and stayed hurt alot. Watters has a better argument.
I think James will get in, but without a major injury, Holmes would have had monster numbers. His case is like Willis at linebacker, high production despite a short career.
Ward is different than the other pass happy catching receivers…He was a run support blocker, who made big catches and was a SB MVP…underrated, but may not be a finalist.
Though Rice is a pure pash rusher, he didn’t realize his talent until after joining the Bucs.
Leslie O Neil like you said, was better even despite injuries…
Just rambling while sipping a drink…
I have to agree o neal would have been much better than rice also banks’s profile looks a little flimsy id rather see wisnewski then banks
Id rather see corey dillon than fred taylor any day of the week
willis is def heads and shouiders above matthews and mills
bslo or brian wolf whats your thoughts on boselli
Yeah, didn’t realize Sterling Sharpe had fallen into the Senior pool. Thanks for the correction.
Lots of great observations above. A couple added things:
-would have preferred to see John Abraham (4/5/none) or Leslie O’Neal (3/5/none) make the top 25 list instead of Simeon Rice (2/3/none). If you like sack compilers, Abraham and O’Neal have more. Also, assuming John Lynch and Ronde Barber are inducted at some point down the road, electing Rice also would put five defensive players in from a Buccaneers squad that won only one Super Bowl.
-before we go considering Steve Tasker as a HoFer, would like to know if he’s indeed the best gunner who ever played. What about Bill Bates or Michael Bates or Kassim Osgood? Or somebody else? I’d really like an answer before we induct anyone. And while we’re on the subject of special teams play, why didn’t it help Albert Lewis, who also played CB at a high level despite lackluster 2/4/none honors?
Bachslunch, you should have looked at my list of 10 seniors choices, lol. I included Sharpe.
Boselli was an excellent tackle despite a short career. Many, think he is in this year,but I think he should still wait.
Boselli had a great game against Bruce Smith in the 96/97 Div playoffs, which was Kelly’s last game. Many writers hyped him up after that, though he struggled against Willie McGinest and the Patriots the next week in the AFC championship. He did a great job before getting seriously hurt in 2000, I think. Though he could be great, I didn’t think he dominated like short career center Dwight Stephenson. His career to me was more like tackle Jim Lachey, who had a short, but great career as well, but isn’t as remembered.
Bill Bates was excellent as well on SP teams and also played a lot of nickel linebacker and safety.
Albert Lewis was a SHUTDOWN corner like Lemarr Parrish, who excelled at SP teams…he can’t even get into the semis ?
Bach’s, on John Turneys Pro Football Journal Site he rates these core special teams/gunners/edge rushers in order :
1 Tasker
2 Bauer
3 Michael Bates
4 Bill Bates
6 Osgood
I think Bill Bates is the all time leading SP teams tackler but he may be surpassed by now.
As far as edge rushers/kick blockers on SP teams, Turney Rated Dave Whitsell of the Saints and Albert Lewis as the best, with Lewis being the leader at blocking punts.
Thanks for your feedback on boselli brian i think the same way you do
Curious if Belichek will say anything about Don Shula since Shula has called him “Belicheat”. LOL Shula got David Woodley to a SB. lol For years others said Shula was so good he could beat you with his players and than turn around with your players and win too. He learned well under Paul Brown. I think Shula was Belichek before Belichek in his prime. No doubt Shula’s energy waned in the mid-80’s. Belichek’s sustained drive and excellence is amazing. I got to believe he’s the best ever. Although George Halas, Paul Brown and Tom Landry were amazing!! For a shorter time Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs are among the best ever. So many really good ones. So that’s 7 of the 10. Leaves Chuck Noll, Weeb Ewbank, Hank Stram, John Madden, Bud Grant, Tony Dunge, and Marv Levy.
Seriously, Adrian Peterson over-rated? lol Came off an ACL injury quicker than anyone putting up a 2,000 yard season when everyone knew he was getting the ball. Remember his QB Christian Ponder? LMBO! Peterson was the “only” reason the Vikings made the Playoffs that year. I can’t think of hardly any players shouldering so much of the load for a Team. and making the Playoffs. Eric Dickerson and Walter Payton. That’s rare air. Was a mistake overlooking Peterson, Marshall Faulk and Tomlinson.
Good points TonyP…
Though he wasn’t a flashy runner like Peterson, or Chris Johnson, Eddie George carried even more of a load for his team because though McNair was a tough QB, he wasn’t a thrower, mostly throwing to his TEs, like Wycheck. He didn’t throw to a consistent wide out till Derrick Mason.
That’s also the last time the Titans won games was with George, not Johnson.
Rasputin has a great gripe about Lenny Moore, who was a great receiver. Coach Weeb Ewbank liked to have him run out of the backfield to give Unitas, more offensive balance.
The reason why he is on this team I believe is because he scored so many TDs, running and receiving. When Moore retired, he was second all time in TDs to Jim Brown.
If anyone should be on this All Time team it’s Hugh McElhenny or Marshall Faulk. Unlike Peterson, Campbell and others, they were total backs who caught and blocked. Matson was a great back stuck on really bad teams.
Tony, what did you think of the Semi Final Cutdown list ? Surprises, or did you agree with the picks ?
Robert, what is your opinion about Atwater ?
Glad you asked I’d put him in
Since O Neil won’t make it, here are my modern picks for the Class of 2020
Ward
James
Lynch
Woodson
Faneca
Paul and others picks will get in however….haha
I am like you Robert, would take Dillon over Taylor.
Dillon was also a great pass blocker.
If you ever get a chance to see game film of Lenny Moore…check it out. Very similar running style to Gale Sayers. He is also in the top few players all time for Touches/To TD %. No one says that they should have only taken 12 running backs. They probably should have taken 14 so that Tomlinson and Faulk both made it as well.
My pick for best Gunners of All-time
1, Mathew Slater
2. Steve Tasker
3. Kassim Osgood
Terrell Owens scored a rushing TD every 13 times he carried the ball and averaged 6.8 yards/rushing attempt. Maybe he should have been included as one of the 12 greatest NFL running backs of all time.
Seriously though, you make a legitimate point, bill. No one’s disputing that Moore was a great player. But given his lack of rushing work load and the fact that he has more receiving yards than rushing yards I have a hard time putting him on the 12 greatest RBs list based on one great TD efficiency metric when there are full blown, great all around RBs who were excluded the caliber of Tony Dorsett (I differ with Brian in that I think he was appropriately rated and is now officially underrated), Tomlinson, and even Faulk (slightly overrated but still a great RB and would have been a defensible inclusion), Larry Csonka, Marcus Allen, John Riggins, Adrian Peterson, Thurman Thomas, etc. who define the NFL position.
Like TonyP said before, all these RBs were great in one way or the other, and we all have subjective opinions based on what are eyes witnessed on film or mostly, television.
These “Greatest” Lists can fire up anyone, but no matter whether we agree on certain players or not, the spirit of debate and remembrance is what counts, since it’s seems, we all love Pro/NFL History.
Like the All time list of Defensive Ends…
I can understand names like White, Smith, Marchetti, Jones, even Atkins, though he started out slowly, but Selmon ?
I get it, he was an excellent 3-4 End, but over names like Eller, Davis, Youngblood and Strahan ?
I dunno…maybe he was great against the run, and that vaulted him ahead.
good points brian my preference over selmon is either eller or youngblood
Agreed, Brian. At least Selmon was an NFL lineman so it’s not as glaring an error as some earlier ones but it still seems like a bad choice. Atkins is a dubious inclusion too over guys like Youngblood and the others you mentioned.
Or for that matter DeMarcus Ware. Note that in this strange set up he was listed as a DE finalist, not a LB, despite other 3-4 OLBs like LT counting as LBs (maybe because Ware was bigger and played a little 4-3 DE?). Ware was the best pass rusher in the NFL during his career and even near the end frankly deserved co-SB MVP credit with Von Miller.
While I wouldn’t include active players as a rule on lists like this, if you are, and they do (presumably with QBs and maybe others), it’s hard to see how you leave JJ Watt off the list. He was the best defensive player in the league for several years. A one man wrecking crew. An historically noteworthy phenomenon.
Lee Roy Selmon? Doug Atkins?
Take away injuries, JJ Watt would have been on this list.
According to Pro Football Journal, Howie Long was so disruptive, that he could have had another 20 to 30 more sacks, if he had just wrapped up better and not missed the tackle, but those pressures are still huge.
Was glad to see Ware have that great SB. Like Freeney in Indy, he was the focal point on the Cowboys defences for years, without alot of help.
At least Freeney got some help with Mathis later on.
I had serious problems with aspects of the 2010 NFL Network’s “100 Greatest” NFL Players of All Time list (this new one is borderline to me so far), and it’s slightly apples and oranges, but it might be interesting to keep note of the players on the 2010 top 100 list who aren’t on the new 100th Anniversary Team and vice versa.
So far:
RBs on 2010 list excluded from the anniversary list.
Tony Dorsett
Marcus Allen
Marshall Faulk
LaDainian Tomlinson
Red Grange
Bronko Nagurski
Ernie Nevers
Jim Thorpe
2010 D-Linemen excluded from anniversary list
Michael Strahan
Willie Davis
2010 LBs excluded from anniversary list
Sam Huff
Mike Singletary
Ray Nitschke
Players who weren’t on the 2010 top 100 list but are on the anniversary list.
Doug Atkins DE
Dutch Clark RB
Bill Hewitt DE
Buck Buchanan DT
John Randle DT
Junior Seau LB
Dean was good against the run also, but so light that he wasn’t an every down player, despite strength and speed.
He wasn’t great against the run, but people I talked to thought Doleman could have had over 200 sacks if he had been more meaner, like Eller. He was still determined to get to the QB though.
I haven’t seen the Linebackers or Defensive tackles All time lists yet, any surprises, Rasputin ?
List is here and updated after each Friday show
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_100th_Anniversary_All-Time_Team
Just saw the Linebacker list on Pro Football Journal.
I know he is old school, but I don’t know about Bednarik. I think more about Nitschke as a MLB that Schmidt, though.
I am one of the few in America who will say this, but I believe Rickey Jackson was as good, if not better than Taylor. He was the best all-round LB who mostly rushed the passer. Though he was an older player, I thought SF circumvented the salary cap by getting him in 94, because how could this team sign Deion Sanders, Dent, Plummer, Jackson and Harris ? No Flippin Way !!
Thanks Paul…
Just saw the DT list…Surprised Buchanan got in over Nomellini, who was great in the 50s.
Karras, Roger Brown, Steve McMichael, Jethro Pugh, and Henry Thomas were great in my mind as well.
Just a stab in the dark…
What do you guys think of 3-4 DE Marshall of the Giants ?
1) He has more sacks than All time DE/ HOF Selmon
2) Won two Championships
3) Counting postseason sacks, has 90, including three in two SBs…
4) With an assist from Taylor, knocked Joe Montana out of the 90/91 NFC Championship game, ending Montana’s dominance as a player.
Giants Ring Of Honor, HOF Resume ?
I don’t see Marshall as a PFHOFer, good career but not a great one.
Do folks think I should start a new topic on the modern semi-finalists or just let this one roll on? In the coming weeks we may get news on blue ribbon panel semi-finalists, and then in just one month (Jan 2nd) announcement of the Modern finalists. Perhaps I should wait to start a fresh topic thread??
New topic on semi finalists would be perfect paul
OK will get to work on one
Thank you very much
Yup Brian, I don’t get HOFer Lee Roy Selmon over some other great DE’s like the ones you mentioned. Maybe it’s about overall play and they are devaluing sacks?
Michael Strahan 4/7 141 sacks and Jack Youngblood 5/7 unofficial 151.5 sacks are clear choice IMO over Selmon’s unofficial 78.5 sacks. I’d go with Youngblood.
Jack Youngblood and Fred Dryer unofficial 104 sacks were the best tandem DE’s sackers I saw throughout the 1970’s. Carl Eller and Jim Marshall a close second. Honorable mention to Ed Too Tall Jones and Harvey Martin.
I always say what a shame more Ram players don’t get their due along with Carroll Rosenbloom. That’s what happens when you don’t win the big one (always a QB short) and than when they do go and they’re overshadowed by Youngblood playing with a broken leg and Steelers cementing themselves as the Team of the 70’s. Someone should compare the Steelers D to the Rams D to see how it compared over the 1970’s. The Rams D was pretty great too! I sure hope Isiah Robertson gets elected soon. I wasn’t even a RAms fan.LOL
Does anyone know if these players getting picked have to be in the HOF already because Julius Peppers 3/9 159.5 sacks , Jared Allen 4/5 136 sacks and Demarcus Ware 4/9 138.5 sacks are DE’s who rank way up there to me.
I still think 10 years shouldn’t be such a measuring stick for a HOFer in years prior to say 1990 especially for RBs . Medical advances and rehab knowledge has become so great the last 30 years . Two names come to mind always when I think of injuries – Billy Sims who had HOF moves for 5 years was done in by them and OJ Anderson who recreated himself but was never the same but had huge heart. If they made it in I wouldn’t say a word in opposition.
I’ll say something controversial haha I would of left Gale Sayers and Earl Campbell off the list. Love me some Earl and my Longhorns and realize no one had seen a player like Sayers (like Brown their athleticism much greater than competition) but I think some better players have come along since. I don’t know about Van Buren and Dutch Clark.
I’ve read lots of great analysis. Of course no logic with the numbers like Paul with mine. :) but here are the 15 I see as the most the deserving.
I like Ints. from my Free Safety that’s why I dropped off Atwater. Lynch has a better argument IMO.
Only reason I cut Willis is short career and these guys deserve good look. Will support Willis next year for list.
I know many will disagree, I don’t see any WR here a lock.
Watters needs to go bye bye after this year.
DB Ronde Barber.
OT Tony Boselli.
WR Isaac Bruce.
G Alan Faneca.
WR Torry Holt.
G Steve Hutchison.
RB Edgerrin James.
S John Lynch.
S Troy Polamalu.
DL Richard Seymour.
LB Zach Thomas.
WR Hines Ward.
RB Ricky Watters.
S Darren Woodson.
These players I want to see inducted this year: Darren Woodson – Zach Thomas – Alan Faneca- John Lynch – Hines Ward (not a popular choice, imo a great “football player”.) If he don’t make it I understand.
Here’s my prediction: Alan Faneca, Edg James, Tony Boselli, Issac Bruce, Troy Polamala. I don’t support Boselli or James. Should Bruce go in before Holt? To me they both are really close calls. IMO Holt has the more impressive numbers and Bruce was a more spectacular/imposing WR.
The NFL is denoting which players were unanimous choices for the anniversary team. So far it’s….
RB
Jim Brown
Walter Payton
DT
Bob Lilly
Alan Page
DE
Gino Marchetti
Deacon Jones
MLB
Dick Butkus
OLB
Bobby Bell
Tony p. You sold me on John lynch
Troy Polamalu is probably getting in this year. After that, I’d like to see them inducted by how long they have left to get them all in. That order would be (with retirement year) Atwater (1999), Butler (2001), Woodson (2003), Lynch (2007). I think they all belong in. Getting Atwater this year as well would be a darned good start.
It’s also why I’d like to see the pecking order for second-tier WRs followed: Bruce, Holt, Ward, Wayne. Not a fan of Ward as a HoFer, but I think he’s getting in regardless sooner or later.
Here is my Guess for Who is getting in this year.
1. Troy Polamalu
2. Edgerrin James
3. TOny Boselli
4. Alan Faneca
5. Steve Atwater
Good info Rasputin, thanks. What about Lawrence Taylor?LOL Are they announcing Head Coaches by Championships? Brown, Belichek, Noll
I’m curious to see what TE’s get left off the list.
Too bad the HOF can’t elect great duos that can’t quite make it on their own. Calvin Hill and Walt Garrison, Matt Snell and Emerson Boozer, Gerald Riggs and William Andrews, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, Drew Pearson and Tony Hill, Mike Alstott and Warrick Dunn, Stanley Morgan and Harold Jackson. How about the duo of Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark before Jerry Rice?
I still wonder why Art Monk is a HOFer over some other WR’s. I remember so much outcry because he waited. Was he more impactful than Gary Clark or did he just play a couple years longer and he’s taller? What’s with all these 5’9″ players never being good enough? Ricky Sanders the third leg of “fun bunch” was really good too. I think WR is the most subjective HOF position there is. So many players with great skill get overlooked . The catches I saw Marino’s WR’s make were incredible. A 5’10” Harold Jackson into the HOF would be a start.
Miami’s WR Nat Moore was very under-rated IMO. Another great Miami 5’9″ WR.
or henry ellard
Was double checking that list and was about to post a correction even before I saw your comment. Tonyp. Your instinct is right. Lawrence Taylor, not Bobby Bell, was the unanimous OLB selection. So here’s the correct list:
Unanimous 100th Anniversary Selections So Far
RB
Jim Brown
Walter Payton
DT
Bob Lilly
Alan Page
DE
Gino Marchetti
Deacon Jones
MLB
Dick Butkus
OLB
Lawrence Taylor
TonyP, it certainly seems like they’re counting down coaches based on championships, lol. That’s the pattern so far. Except if they’re treating all titles as equal that would mean they skipped Halas (6) and Lombardi (5), who are surely on the list, along with maybe Lambeau (6). So probably not.
The safety duo of Cliff Harris and Charlie Waters is worth a mention. They got to where they could almost read each other’s minds and successfully baited opponents into traps countless times.
Great call on the wideouts TonyP…
Moore was crucial in Marino’s development because he was a dependable target over the middle that enabled the Marks Bros, to operate on the outside. Moore also helped open things up for the tight ends as well. Very underrated.
Jackson’s speed and presence, enabled the Rams and Patriots to develop great running games, similar to Branch in Oakland.
Another underrated receiver was Carrol Dale for GB. His speed and ability rejuvenated the GB passing attack, enabling them to win three straight Championships, after he joined the team. In the first SB, he had TD called back because of a penalty. He was clutch in the postseason along with Dowler.
Like you said, Gary Clark was small but had a great heart. Only Andre Reed and Jerry Rice caught more passes over the middle in the 80s.
He won’t make the Hall, but in his healthy years, Roy Green was a great deep receiver who John Madden compared to his great wideout, Warren Wells.
Unfortunately, alot of great defensive duos may cancel each other out for the ten senior slots this year…
Safeties Dick Anderson and Jake Scott with Miami
Waters and Harris with Dallas
Karras and Brown with Detroit
Parrish and Riley with Cincy
Jordan and Howley with Dallas
Not a position duo, but Greenwood, Shell and Russell with Pitts
Barnes and Patton with NYG
Budde and Tyrer with KC
Martin and Jones with Dallas
Dilweg and Lewellen with GB
Gastineau and Klecko with Jets
Lewis, Ross, Cherry, Barbaro with KC
Andrie and Pugh with Dallas
Mostly defence above but some offensive teammates as well.
I predicted Donnie Shell would be part of the Class of 2020, he has my vote anyway.
Looking at the NOMINEES for the All Time Safeties, out of 14 spots, Shell is the only one besides Polamalu, to not be in the Hall.
Everyone knows Polamalu will get in, could Shell ?
Help me out Rasputin, or Paul, or whoever’s following this 100 Players/All Time Team…
According to NFL.com, this Blue Ribbon Committee has been formed since 2018, but does anyone know who makes up this committee, and is it basically the same group, or similar to the one that’s choosing the 15 members to the Class of 2020 ?
If at least half of this committee is part of the group that decides on the 15 seniors/coaches/contributors, we may not get the cutdown list till January, because they could be involved in this weekly All Time List.
If so, could they tip their hand on players ?
So far, Sestak of Buff, and Shell of Pitts are All Time finalists, that are not in the Hall yet…Will this be theyre chance ? …Juss speculating
Its not the same group, and the blue ribbon panel submitted their votes back in the summer (also when all the shows were taped), so those also serving on the PFHOF blue ribbon panel are not currently involved with two separate tasks. The list of those voting on the 100th anniversary team were announced months ago, somewhere online you can find the list. As to whether the selection of the anniversary team could impact class of 2020 selections, perhaps I suppose but with different mix of voters and different process I am not so certain that will be the case. Because Shell is among the finalists for the anniversary team does that give him the edge over same era safety and 1st team all decade player Cliff Harris??
list of 100th anniversary blue ribbon panel are here
https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/All%20Time%20Team%20Panel%20and%20Process_final.pdf
12/26 members of the 100th anniversary team panel are also on the 25 member PFHOF class of 2020 blue ribbon panel
(that list is here https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2019/10/pro-football-hall-of-fame-blue-ribbon-voters-set-for-centennial-class.html)
and to clarify, the process of selecting the 100th anniversary team was completed in 2018
Thanks Paul
Thanks for the links, Paul. Some of the names….Dungy, LeBeau, Peter King, several non-Dallas NFC East figures, etc…..may hint at why they’d tilt toward Shell rather than Cliff Harris. Some of those are on the HoF Blue Ribbon panel and some aren’t. Of course Gosselin is on both, as he’s apparently on every panel. I tend to feel better about a panel when Peter King isn’t on it, and I’m glad to see Elliott Harrison on the HoF BR panel instead of King. Without counting any chickens I’m a little more hopeful about that one.
This is interesting:
“… a player must have participated in at least five seasons in the NFL, AFL (American Football League), the AAFC (All-America Football Conference), or some combination thereof.”
Then why call it the “NFL” anniversary team? I think there were some flaws in this list’s initial conception.
Cheers Paul.
I never realised the vote for this 100th anniversary team was conducted in the summer of 2018. That explains why Aaron Donald wasn’t even nominated. If they were doing the vote once the 100th season had actually concluded then he most definitely would’ve been there.
I also can’t believe someone didn’t vote for Barry Sanders in their Top 12 or Reggie White in their Top 7 at their respective positions. I’m speechless.
Brian – I make it three Seniors names who have been nominated for this team that aren’t in Canton; Sestak, Shell and Lipscomb.
“Then why call it the “NFL” anniversary team? I think there were some flaws in this list’s initial conception.”
When the AAFC and AFL merged into the NFL they became part of the NFL, including its history, they were viewed as part of the NFL not separate, that’s the reasoning for including those players even though they played in leagues that at the time were separate.
And with a 100th anniversary blue ribbon panel of 24 members, I would not be so inclined to infer the voting blocks will emerge AFC vs NFC and read into impacts in terms of voting, I don’t think its that clear or simple of reasoning.
I may be wrong but I really don’t think the results of the anniversary team selection (votes and process) will have much impact on the class of 2020, just too many different views, different process and timeline. I would not tend to look at voting for the anniversary team as to clues to the class of 2020 elections.
As to Peter King, he is entitled to his own views, I tend to respect his opinions although I don’t always agree, but I like to remind people he is just one voice among many on the PFHOF selection committee (or in this case the 100th anniversary team panel) and he’s not the only one that can offer views that others disagree with (including many posters here). He does not carry more importance or impact than any other voter as they all can make up their own minds. I tend to think he has detractors largely because unlike most other voters (and members of the media) he has a higher public profile and when it comes to the Hall and other league issues tends to write and speak more frequently about it.
The NFL basically absorbed the AFL and AAFC (at least remnants of it) but that doesn’t change the fact that before those mergers they were completely different leagues. That would remain true even if we were to pretend that a season in those other leagues was completely equivalent to a season in the NFL in terms of stats, awards, etc., which would be an absurd assumption. They could have called it the All Tim “Pro Football” team but they didn’t. I tend to be a logical guy and I guess it’s the category error that bothers me.
Some people are more forceful and influential in sharing their opinions than others. King seems to be such a person, or at least someone really set in the opinions he adopts. I often disagree with him and frankly there are things about his presentation that rub me the wrong way. I don’t want to trash or insult the guy, but I have a little sinking feeling whenever I see that he’s on some panel, article, or even tv show covering a topic I care about.
who would be your qbs for the all time team just curious
Unitas Baugh Graham Starr Staubach Montana Elway Marino Brady Manning
If it’s 12 QBs, Layne and Luckman should be added to Paul’s list
Tough to leave off Bradshaw and Favre.
Since all of us seem to have been Cowboys fans when we were young, why is Bradshaw not getting his due ?
He sure got it done in Super Bowls/Championship games.
1940s : Baugh and Luckman
1950s : Graham and Layne
1960s : Starr and Unitas
1970s : Staubach and Bradshaw
1980s : Montana and Marino
1990s : Elway and Favre
2000s : Brady and Manning
2010s : Brady and Rodgers
My 10, excluding still active players:
Joe Montana
Roger Staubach
Johnny Unitas
Peyton Manning
Troy Aikman
Sammy Baugh
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Sid Luckman
Dan Marino
Elway, Favre, and Bradshaw would definitely make my arm strength team. The problem with putting Bradshaw in the top 10 is that he threw 212 TDs to 210 INTs and his completion percentage was below the league average for his era. There’s a reason he has fewer Pro Bowls than Super Bowl wins.
I don’t think it would be terrible for someone to include Bradshaw in his top 10, and given what I said above about the panel’s makeup it wouldn’t shock me if the anniversary team does, but he’s not a must-include either.
I suspect there are likely other PFHOF voters that have strong opinions and views, especially in regards to who should be elected and those not, and they are not afraid to take those stands or state them-just privately. Its just that they are not as vocal or make such views apparent in the public writing and statements as King often does. We know so very little about the discussions and dynamics between voters, especially “offline” or even in the selection meeting (as Hall has made it very clear to the voters that debates among them regarding candidates are not to be made public). I often wonder if King receives scorn (sometimes deservingly) because his views are often known. Dr Z would refer to the silent voters in the room with strong views held back but then reflected in their voting as the “silent assassins”. My guess there are fewer of those types on the committee then in past, but willing to bet some are still there who we would be appalled at their positions if we only knew .
Top 12
Sammy Baugh
Otto Graham
Johnny Unitas
Fran Tarkington
Roger Staubach
Joe Montana
John Elway
Dan Marino
Steve Young
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Best of the rest in order: Sid Luckman, Brett Favre, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Len Dawson, Troy Aikman, Bob Griese, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Ken Stabler, Joe Namath.
Sonny Jurgensen goes somewhere around Len Dawson.
Great list great of pairs Brian and insight. I’m sure we all remember it was Howard Cosell’s amazement of Gary Clark that got him in hot water on MNF when he said he was everywhere like a little monkey. He was a courageous little reciever . That’s why I don’t get the lack of recognition for the small guys. Football is primarily for the big and strong.
Another pretty good Cardinal deep threat was Mel Gray. I really liked Coryell’s Cards of the mid-70’s. I know you Cowboy fans not so much lol but they were only a minor annoyance most of the time. :)
agreed with rasputin on bradshaw and this is coming from a steelers fan
Cosell meant no disrespect, he said it in a way, like he was talking to his grandson. Just a poor choice during a thrilling come from behind win for Dallas.
As you guys can tell, I am more about winning, clutch QBs, than statistics or comparative numbers.
Bradshaw won big, had a great deep throwing arm and called his own plays. He could run like a fullback as well. Franco or the defence, or not, he deserves more credit than he gets.
Jurgenson was a great thrower with a tight spiral, who could never win games or run his backs.
Why does everyone question Namath being in the Hall, but not him ?
Speaking of little guys…
Warrick Dunn was the smallest RB to ever cross 10,000 yrds. Ran inside between the tackles as well.
Speaking of Arms Rasputin…
Strongest arms
1) Favre
2) Elway/George
3) Williams
4) Bradshaw/Marino
5) Moon/Evans
6) Gabriel
7) Morton Before surgery
8) Lamonica/Namath
Many believe Ray Guy had the strongest arm, but I never saw him throw…these guys I have
Cutler in Denver, more than Chicago
Culpepper
Nagle
Schroeder
Early Vick
Cunningham
Kelly
Bartkowski
Had great arms as well…Especially Schroeder
A few days I emailed text for a new topic on the semi-finalists to our hosts to start a fresh discussion there. Hopefully it gets up in near future (everyone involved is pretty busy these days and this is just a hobby for us all)
There will only be 10 Qb’s that make the 100 List. Here are mine.
1. Brady
2. Montana
3. P. Manning
4. Unitas
5. Baugh
6. Elway
7. Favre
8 Graham
9. Staubach
10. Luckman
Brees would be next followed by Young, Rodgers, Aikman, Bradshaw, Van Brocklin, Dawson, Tarkenton and Fouts
Made huge omission. Marino would be on the list. You can knock Luckman to 11th
I would also put Starr ahead of Aikman
ive never heard any complaints about jurgensen brian nor do i have a issue with him and the hall of fame
That’s my point Robert…
Namath wins the AFL Championship and World Championship/Super Bowl, that’s TWO games but many people on the internet thinks he shouldn’t be in the HOF.
Meanwhile Jurgenson wins no Championships, and has a losing record, like Warren Moon but no one complains. He is in like Moon, Fouts, as a thrower.
Tittle won divisions but no Championships as well.
How about some DB lists since that’s the episode tomorrow?
My Choices…
Cornerbacks Safeties
Adderley Lott
Blount Houston
Haynes Reed
Woodson Tunnell
Lane Shell
Brown Christiansen
Johnson
My Choices…
Cornerbacks
Adderley
Blount
Haynes
Woodson
Lane
Brown
Johnson
Safeties
Lott
Houston
Reed
Tunnell
Shell
Christiansen
My Ten Quarterbacks…
Montana
Brady
Unitas
Staubach
Bradshaw
Elway
Layne
Graham
Favre
Starr
Sorry Luckman and Baugh…just missed
Just Nitpicking/Stirring the Pot…haha
Worst Overall Records (Including Postseason)
HOF QBs T Formation
1) Jurgensen…69 – 73 – 7 …No Championship
2) Moon….105 – 108 …No Championship
3) Namath…64 – 64 – 4 …AFL Championship, SB Championship
4) Blanda….55 – 51 – 1 …Two AFL Championships
5) Fouts….89 – 88 – 1 …No Championship
6) Tittle….86 – 75 – 5 …No Championship
7) Tarkenton…130 – 114 – 6 …Three NFC Championships
Goofed…Blanda had a better winning percentage than Fouts
No Deion Sanders, lol?
I couldn’t decide between Sanders and Revis, so I left them off. Great coverage corners, with baggage. Deion might be the best in coverage, but his selfishness in Atlanta, lack of tackling in Dallas despite his price tag, just rubbed me the wrong way. Since he didn’t want to cover receivers inside, he put more responsibilities on Darren Woodson, who did it all and deserves to be in this HOF.
Revis was excellent as well in coverage, but his time in TB and his second stint in NY, were really bad.
At least he focused, and got a ring with NE, who he should have stayed with.
I just decided to mostly stay with corners who stayed with their teams over the long haul.
The Woodson I picked was Rod Woodson.
and deion sanders made the team despite brians prattling
i will not be on this site this often for the next month and a half personal stuff to take care of
C’mon Robert, these threads would be boring if everyone agreed.
I like to start controversy, just to see good rebuttals
Here is my DB List
1. D. Sanders
2. R. Woodson
3. C. Woodson
4. M. Haynes
5. D. Lane
6. M. Blount
7. W. Brown
1. R. Lott
2. E. Reed
3. E. Tunnell
4. K. Easley
5. P. Krause
6. T. Polamalu
CBs Blount Brown Green Lane Sanders Woodson Woodson
S Easley Houston Lott Reed Wilson Wood
Well, I got five out of seven right on the corners, and five out of six on the safeties, too bad I won’t be patting myself on the back…haha
I know Sanders is a great talent, I am just not a big fan of him. He was made to be a free agent-for-hire.
I still can’t believe Green beat out Revis. That was a tough call. If Revis had never left the Jets, sky is the limit.
In terms of considering as one of the best of all time, I think Revis is hurt by having his best years early in his career (2008-2011) with a four year peak early in a 11 year career (4 teams in last five years is also not a great look).
Sanders did play with two teams late in his career, but did spend 5 years in ATL and 5 years in DAL, His 6x first team AP All Pro (all at CB) is best at that position, I get that people are unhappy with his lack of tackling but as a CB he is an all time great.
My thinking re Deion Sanders is that when you cover as well as he did, no QB with any sense is going to throw in your direction anyway. And he certainly wouldn’t be the first CB who’s not much help against the run.
Yeah, the cornerbacks are a tough group to corral. Albert Lewis, Lemar Parrish, Lester Hayes,
Emmitt Thomas, Eric Allen, Abe Woodson, Erich Barnes, John Sample, not to mention a great tackler in Antoine Winfield, and a great ballhawk in Ken Riley, are tough names to leave off, but there can only be seven slots.
I am beginning to think that if there is no senior/coaches cutdown this week, it probably won’t happen till Jan 2nd.
I propose that if this is indeed the case, why not just announce the 10 seniors and 2 coaches for the Centennial Class of 2020, and announce the contributors and final five modern members on Super Bowl Weekend ?
That way, the seniors/coaches get to be celebrated for a whole month, before the Super Bowl Hype Machine gets in full sway ?
Who knows if or when the blue ribbon panel will even announce their semi-finalists (maybe at this point they won’t), but would be nice if their elected finalists were announced in January instead of waiting for the official presentation of the modern elected players the night before the SB.
Hard to believe Jackie Smith wasn’t a tight end finalist. I know he was mostly a receiver, but so was Gonzalez, Gates, Sharpe and Winslow and Newsome.
Ditka, Mackey, Gronk, Witten and Casper were the best blocker/receiver combo TEs. Gronk is great but Casper was my favorite TE of all time.
Disappointed Macek and Stepnoski didn’t make this group. Both I believe are underrated and should be in the Hall.
Stephensen was the best I ever saw.
The San Diego Chargers offensive line of the early 80s, was one of the best ever and deserve more players like Macek, White, Washington and Wilkerson getting Hall consideration.
Will pick according to these choices, but add others as well…
Offensive Tackles
Jones
Munoz
Ogden
Gregg
Brown
Shell
Mix
Jim Tyrer, Winston Hill, Russ Washington, Leon Gray, Al Wistert, Mike Kenn, Gary Zimmerman we’re great as well, that weren’t listed
Offensive Guards
Allen
Hannah
Parker
Stanfel
McDaniel
Kramer
Fortmann
Brad Budde, Bob Young, Doug Wilkerson, Bob Kuechenberg, Ed White, Hutchinson, Faneca, etc left off this list
Centers
Stephensen
Webster
Hein
Turner
Macek, Stepnoski, Donaldson, Holub, Hull, Nalen, Mawae, also nonfinalists.
Tight Ends
Casper
Ditka
Winslow
Witten
Gronk
Mostly went for blocker/receiver hybrids, but also Jackie Smith, Jerry Smith, Jay Novechek, Pete Retzlaff, Ben Coates, Mark Bavaro Todd Christiansen amongst other excellent receiving tight ends.
C Dawson, Otto, Stephenson, Webster
OT R Brown, Gregg, Jones, Mix, Munoz, Ogden, Shell (boy was that a tough group to pick!)
OG Allen, Hannah, Matthews, McDaniel, Parker, Shields, Upshaw
TE Ditka, Gonzalez, Gronk, Mackey, Winslow
The biggest safety omission from last week’s episode to me was Paul Krause, though there’s no guy I’d sure fire replace with him. It’s really an either/or situation with him and Emlen Tunnell and maybe Ken Houston.
This isn’t a glaring error but I would have liked Mel Renfro to have gotten more serious consideration than he apparently did. The guy made 10 Pro Bowls, won 4 NFC Championships, won 2 Super Bowls, holds the Cowboys career interception record, was probably the greatest kick returner in team history, and gets almost no respect in discussions like this. They glowed over Ronnie Lott excelling at both safety and CB. Well Mel Renfro made 6 of his Pro Bowls and a first team All Pro selection at safety. He had world class track speed, helping set a 4 x 110 yard relay world record in college, and was also a hard hitter and strong tackler. Watching some of those old games he looks like almost as much a shut down corner as Deion. It’s a disgrace that he had to wait until his final year of modern eligibility to squeak into the HoF. Again, not a glaring omission but there are a few CBs on this list Renfro could replace without hurting it one bit.
brian dont you mean ed budde
I had R Brown as well. With Shell narrowly over Bob Brown.
Youre right Robert…Ed Budde, not his son.
You’re right about Renfro, Rasputin. They couldn’t decide if he was more of a safety or corner. They also couldn’t decide if Seau was more of an inside or outside linebacker.
Seems like a lot of great defensive ballhawks don’t get their proper do…Krause, Ken Riley, Duane Brown up in Seattle, Eugene Robinson, Darren Sharper, even Asante Samuel, who had nearly 60 interceptions counting postseason. Walls as well.
Who do you like amongst the Offensive Lineman and Tight Ends, Robert ?
These finalists are all super close
TE: Gronk Gonzalez Mackey Ditka Casper OT Munoz Ogden Roaf Shell R. Brown Gregg Pace OG: Hannah B Matthews McDaniel Parker Shields Allen T. Mack C: Otto Hein Webster Ringo
Thanks…you seem to like the combination blocker/receivers as well. Mackey will be on the all time team. No one wanted to tackle him once he caught the ball. Heath Miller of your Steelers was an excellent TE as well. I almost put down Ringo, but wanted to give credit to the early, great centers like Hein and Turner, but Gatski of Cleveland was great as well.
Wide Receivers will be a tough, interesting group because everyone will be in love with Rice and probably Owens, but I like Warfield and Harrison myself…we will see
My Top Receivers, finalists or not
Warfield
Rice
Hutson
Harrison
Alworth
Berry
Swann
Moss
Lofton
Largent
My list
1. Gronk
2. Gonzalez
3. Mackey
4. Ditka
5. Winslow
1. Otto
2. Hein
3. Webster
4. Stephenson
1. Hannah
2. Parker
3. Allen
4. Upshaw
5. Matthews
6. Fortman
7. McDaniel
1. Munoz
2. Gregg
3. Shell
4. Ogden
5. Roaf
6. Hubbard
7. Jones
3 wr id like to see hutson berry allworth
Bill
Swap Roaf for R.Brown and you absolutely nailed it for this week’s selections. Well done.
I would have gone with Witten over Winslow and maybe Gronk (taking durability into account), but Belichick was going to get his guy in. That makes JJ Watt’s exclusion more glaring.
Speaking of which, setting aside the merits of their inclusion on this list (which has mostly been legitimate), does anyone else find it unseemly that multiple potential candidates were included on the panel (Belichick, Art Shell, Shula, etc. ) and that so many of them are ending up on the list? Was it necessary to have someone like Shell on the list as opposed to maybe a respected, knowledgeable player who WASN’T going to be a serious candidate?
Witten has more Pro Bowls than Gronk has seasons, more Pro Bowls than Winslow and Mackey combined. If Gonzales is such a shoo in for ranking #1 in TE receiving stats then it makes sense that the guy who ranks #2 in career stats and set some game and season records should at least edge into the top 5. Especially given his good blocking and willingness to do the dirty work over the years, a true all around TE, unlike Gonzales. Oh well. Witten is still playing, lol, so maybe like JJ Watt he’ll have a shot at the 125th anniversary list.
Doubt very much Gronk needed Belichick to get in, 24 other voters made up their own minds, and same for having members on the panel that were elected, pretty sure the others voters made their own decisions.
I am a big Witten fan and supporter, but lets not act as if Pro Bowls are really a key factor in these votes, Gronk has more 1st team all pro and will be 2010 all decade team TE, and although I don’t think he is greatest TE of all time as some would claim, I don’t see any reason why he should not be on this list.
You misunderstood. Gronk was on my list too (I’d have dropped Winslow to include him and already had Witten higher). But then so was JJ Watt. He’s been the most dominant defensive player of his era and is even more deserving of being on this team than Gronkowski. He’s even still playing while Rob’s not. Yet we were told by panelist Judy Battista and others that Watt was excluded due to his “injury history”.
Really? Watt has 6 full seasons where he started all 16 games. Gronk has 1. So what’s your excuse for excluding him now? Granted, they’re different positions but my point was that maybe if Watt had HIS guy on the panel with Belichick’s kind of pull it tips the balance his way like it apparently did for Gronk.
“I am a big Witten fan and supporter, but lets not act as if Pro Bowls are really a key factor in these votes, Gronk has more 1st team all pro”
Sure, 4 to 2, though Witten deserved more. Pro Bowls aren’t completely irrelevant though. Clearly neither are volume receiving stats judging by other inclusions. Witten ranks 4th in NFL history in receptions and 2nd among TEs. He’s got more catches than Marvin Harrison. A then TE record of 110 in one season and still holds the TE single game record with 18. Cowboys franchise receiving leader with almost 13,000 yards, ranking 19th in NFL history and 2nd among TEs. And, unlike the guy who currently ranks #1 in those stats and most of the other great receiving TEs Witten has been a good blocker throughout his career, always willing to do the dirty work. He’s the epitome of a true, all around TE and he should have been on this list.
BTW, that was the Mount Rushmore coaching episode, lol: Halas, Landry, Lambeau, Lombardi. Wow.
I guess Witten was penalized for still playing, but he was an excellent blocker as well.
I like Gronk and agree with him being picked, because of his postseasons, but he pushed off alot as well.
Mackey was great blocking and running with the football, but in Callahan’s biography of Unitas, Johnny though Mackey had hands of stone.
I thought Casper and Bavaro were the best blockers.
I should add that if durability is a plus, as the comments on Watt’s “injury history” suggest, then Witten is the ultimate there too. In 16 seasons he’s only missed one game, that in his rookie year the week after suffering a broken jaw. The following week he played with it wired up and hasn’t missed a game since. At one point the man played with a lacerated spleen.
Oh and Witten was probably retired when this panel supposedly voted in 2018. Now he’s back at it though, lol.
Take away that terrible knee injury in 89 and Bavaro would already be in the Hall. He played on grit alone his last two seasons with the Eagles, because Belichick and the Browns wanted him to retire in 92.
At least out of the five TEs, three were blockers but to leave off Jackie Smith as a finalist was as crazy as not including Witten amongst the five. Maybe the panel thought he was more a receiver, but wasn’t Winslow and Gonzalez as well ? Gates had more TDs than all of them…
Good points on the tight ends brian
Gonna be some subjective arguments with the QBS and Receivers because no matter how fancy-dancy the defenders schemes are, QBs and Receivers get away with a lot more than they used to, which is what tv ratings and “entertainment” are really all about.
Still, the All time players got it done in any era RELATIVE to their careers and I always feel, contributing to winning games and/or championships, separates the cream from the crop compared to just statistics or era/comparative statistics.
As we all know already, a player like Jerry Rice has POSTSEASON stats alone, that would be almost a career for alot of Receivers today, the way players bounce in and out of gameday lineups.
Hopefully, the All Time team will get it right, or close but who knows ?
I listed Moss amongst my Receivers based on his talent and big play ability, but was also somewhat reluctant because I like players who sacrifice for the TEAM goal, and didn’t think he or Terrell Owens fit those bills all the time.
I still remember Moss’s time with the Titans/Vikings, before joining the 49ers to end his career, where he wasn’t even running down the field on offence, he was simply JOGGING…
No way a Paul Warfield or Raymond Berry or Pete Retzlaff would EVER, play football like that, but we are in a different, less intense, players era…
Actually I think the panel did pretty good with the OL and TEs. And as for the TEs Mackey, Ditka, Gronk, and Gonzalez are clearly solid locks, so then you really are debating Winslow and the case there might be over Newsome. There’s a league history of 10 decades, 2 TEs already on team from last 2 decades, not really sure it becomes a team reflective of 100 year history of league by adding Witten or Gates for the fifth spot. The problem with looking at TE receptions is the post 2000 numbers are really not reflective of the position since start of league since TEs are now essentially big WRs. If receptions, yards and TEs is the measure then you would end up with 4 or 5 TEs all from post 2000s as if no all time great TEs played in earlier decades. I don’t think having over representation of TEs from post 2000s would be a true history of the game.
Good points Paul as usual, but considering Witten was a good blocker, it’s obvious that Gronks championships made the difference. Mackey and Ditka were the same era as well, but both got in, while Jackie Smith, the Tony Gonzalez of his time during the 60s AND 70s…wasn’t considered.
WRs:
Don Hutson
Jerry Rice
Raymond Berry
Elroy “Crazylegs” Hirsch
Michael Irvin
Marvin Harrison
Randy Moss
Steve Largent
Pete Pihos
Paul Warfield
Though I’m tempted to replace Warfield with Sterling Sharpe. After all, he played about as many games as Gronk.
Paul, TE didn’t really exist as a differentiated position the first few decades so it’s not quite “100 years” of history there. Since TE blocking is still a huge part of the game and most teams’ offenses, I’m opposed to glorifying those who are just big receivers, though I agree with you that sadly that’s the approach these voters usually take, a shallow glance at certain receiving stats. Shannon Sharpe doesn’t make the HoF if he splits out. But line him up next to a tackle and judge him by a different standard based on a past of that position mostly blocking, and he’s in Canton. It’s like grading on a curve.
That’s why I rank Witten so high. He’s got the great receiving stats, but he’s also blocked well over the years and is a great representative of true Tight Ends. Gronk blocked too but he had terrible durability. Witten is one of the most durable players ever and has it all.
My point about TEs is that with Mackey, Ditka, Gronk, and Gonzalez you basically have 4/5, adding another post 2000 TE would be Gates or Witten or even Sharpe, while skipping over Winslow or Newsome. Going with Gates or Witten is basically saying TEs in this passing era where their role is more of a big 3rd WR are more deserving-and I don’t believe that as talent and skill and roles should all also be considered. Its the same debate that is going to come up with the WRs and QBs were the top 10 career numbers are dominated by the post 2000s era players.
One may have their critiques of Gronk, but poll 50 or 100 experts or even fans and would be willing to bet vast majority pick Gronk over Witten every time. Witten simply can’t match the top quality seasons Gronk has with 4x all and will be 2010s all decade team. I am not dismissing Witten’s career, just that when looking at Gronk against Witten, I don’t think you will find folks picking Witten as the better player or career. And yes the playoffs and SBs matter in any career comparison discussion and Gronk has huge advantage, plus he had a talent, size and ability at a higher peak than best Witten ever had. Witten will make the PFHOF and is likely in anyone’s list of top 10 TEs of all time, but even as a Witten fan I don’t see him close to Gronk or his omission from the 100th anniversary team as glaring issue.
If anything hurts Witten besides not winning a championship, it’s the fact that his TD totals were low, as we’re Jackie Smith, Drew Pearson, Mac Speedie and other great players, while Jerry Smith of the Redskins held the TE record for TDs for years.
It’s a tough debate because while Gronk steps into a situation with a great QB like Brady, who makes many receivers look good, Witten is helping Romo try to turn around the fortunes of a team who hadn’t won since Jay Novacek hurt his back in 96.
Good Wideout list Paul…I love Irvin and Pearson myself but they just missed, while I believe Sharpe should still make the HOF, his diva personality could rub people the wrong way. Retzlaff reminded me of Pihos, and I thought about replacing Moss with Stallworth but couldn’t do it because he was mostly a number two receiver.
Another debate is the great speedsters like Harlon Hill, Del Shofner, Don Maynard ( though mostly a two) Bob Hayes, Harold Jackson, Cliff Branch etc…
Do these players great speed put one on the list ?
One reason I chose Moss and Lofton
Sorry Rasputin, your list…saw Paul’s name and was mistaken.
Hutson Berry Alworth Rice Largent Lofton Irvin Moss TO Fitzgerald
Thanks, Brian. Paul, with your talk about not excessively focusing on TEs who are mostly big receivers you’re basically making my point, lol, since Witten is the ultimate true, all around TE. Again, the Gronk v Witten thing isn’t relevant to my list since I would have had them both (Winslow didn’t win any SBs BTW), but Gronk’s big weakness is durability. I guess it depends on whether you want your TE to actually play some full seasons or not. Oh well. To each his own. I think this anniversary “team” is stupid anyway for various reasons I’ve already laid out here.
Also, while Witten doesn’t have as many TDs as a few of those “big receivers” playing TE, partly because Dallas has criminally underused Witten in the Red Zone (he’s great in the end zone) over the years to keep him in as a blocker instead, he had a spectacular one handed, spinning behind the back TD catch tonight and is two TDs away from holding the Dallas Cowboys career receiving TD record. So it’s not like he’s bad on TDs.
I think it is time to put Travis Kelce on the list of potential HOFers. He just became the first TE with 4 straight seasons of 1,000 receiving yards. He is 30 and seems to be right in the middle of his prime. He has a very good young QB too. I know it is still early, but after this year his resume will be most likely 3/5/10s (When they vote for All Decade Team) and I think he will continue his great play for the next 3-4+ years.
My point about TEs as big WRs was change in role of that position, where TEs are putting up 90+ reception and 1000 yr seasons, aka WRs, and if anyone is a model for that it would be Gronk. I just don’t think a 100th anniversary team with 5 TEs should have 3 from last 20 years where the TE has been a position for many decades before. Winslow or Newsome are very deserving given their impacts from the position in the era they played.
You may disagree with selections for a 100th anniversary team, but the idea is just as sound as a season All Pro team or all decade team, and every sport does them. Just because you think others should be selected-fair debate and disagreement-there is nothing really wrong with the concept, especially considering that 50th and 75th anniversary teams exist.
Bachslunch and Rasputin…Have you guys been able to message Clark Judge on Twitter ?
I am on there and following him but for some reason, can’t message him. I have to learn Twitter, but Hate these “social” whining sites.
No, Paul. I love the concept of a 100th Anniversary team. The problem is the various flaws in the execution, starting with the format conception by Horrigan and co.. The previous Anniversary teams were actually like TEAMS in size and scope. This isn’t a roster. It’s some crazy list of 100 that’s not a list of the 100 greatest players but has seemingly arbitrary position quotas and isn’t real roster either. I also don’t like that they established that they’re counting AAFC and AFL seasons as equal to NFL seasons, again, as I explained above. Regardless of what one thinks about the quality of those leagues, they weren’t the NFL but completely different leagues. So it’s a logical category error.
And I’m not crazy about the panel makeup and I think they whiffed badly one some choices. Just giving my opinion. As for Gronk, he blocked well too so, aside from his lack of durability, I see him as a true TE, not just a big receiver. Gonzales, Gates, and Winslow are more that type. I’d include Gonzales on my list of 5 to both represent that type and because his receiving stats are so overwhelming that he could be a candidate for the receiver list, but just him out of the bunch.
Brian, I agree and especially loath twitter. He’s saying on ToF that he’s messaged you but despite the fact that I was already following him before our latest exchange he apparently can’t see me so maybe I’m already being shadow banned or something, lol. Still trying to work that out.
Thanks Rasputin…yes, I followed him and he responded back to me on Twitter and wants me to message him on clarkvjudge@gmail.com, so if you have Gmail, should be able to reach him if not Shitter, I mean Twitter…
I don’t have Twitter. Email is the way to reach me.
Left a message for Clark on the thread over at ToF. Maybe we can improvise something via one of you guys if email doesn’t work for Clark.
LOL, none of us were on twitter, bachslunch. I was going to say I could help improvise something but I see on the thread it turns out you actually did have a twitter account you had forgotten about.
Tried to message you on Twitter Bachs, but I couldn’t…hope you followed Clark @clarkjudgeTOF
WRs Hutson Berry Alworth Rice Largent Lofton Irvin Moss TO Fitzgerald
Four of the best receivers from the 1970s left off this list…Swann, Pearson, Branch and Jackson.
I get that Swann had low statistics, but he WAS the Steelers primary receiver over Stallworth for years.
though even as a #2 receiver, Stallworth was great.
I can understand the panel not wanting tandems like Swann/Stallworth, Bilitnikoff/Branch to get in, but Pearson and Harold Jackson were their teams #1 option. Fitzgerald is great too, but Boldin was the Cardinals #1 option till he left. Maynard’s speed is legendary but he was their #2 receiver behind Art Powell and later George Sauer Jr on the Jets.
No Tim Brown ?
Haha, if Moss or Owens get in over Warfield, I will eat my shorts.
Warfield on last Browns championship 1964
Warfield on last Dolphins championship 1973
Ultimate Weapon…nuff said
Damn, they did put a tandem on this list… Hirsch/Fears…
My 10 all made the finalist list, along with 2 I was also considering: Fitzgerald and Bob Hayes. If I was to go with a speed guy as Brian was talking about earlier, I’d go with Hayes: the fastest man in NFL history and one who averaged more TDs/game over his first 2 seasons combined than Randy Moss did over his first 2.
According to Pro Football Journal, the final ten receivers have been leaked…
Warfield
Hutson
Alworth
Berry
Harrison
Hirsch
Moss
Fitzgerald
Rice
Largent
Was posted in Instagram…Official ?
According to Clark Judge, Blue Ribbon panel semifinal list will be released on Thursday, at 1pm if Tony has a new thread ready Paul ?
Not sure if the leak is correct but was coming here to say I’m confident in 8 of those names Brian has listed.
Hutson
Alworth
Berry
Warfield
Rice
Largent
Moss
Fitzgerald
The other two spots were really open.
If it was a hoax on Instagram, whoever did the list and art design, did a damn good job BoKnows…
So it’d be my list except Alworth and Fitzgerald instead of Irvin and Pihos. I think Irvin is one of the greatest WRs of all time and his exclusion is a mistake, but then I already soured on this “team” as explained above. Pihos had 5 first team All Pro selections and won the rare receiving triple crown in one of his 2 years to lead the NFL in receiving yards. The physical end was also strong on defense and was instrumental in winning 2 NFL championships for the Eagles. Seems like recentist bias to leave him off. My main problem with Alworth is just that he was mostly an AFL WR and this list is (apparently misleadingly) titled “100th NFL Anniversary Team.” But even if it was just a pro football list there are several others I’d replace with Alworth before I got up to Irvin and Pihos. Fitzgerald is great and almost made my list but he has zero receiving titles or championships, and he never hit 1,500 yards in a season. Irvin led the league with 1,523 one year and had 1,603 another year despite the Cowboys passing way less than the NFL average even in that less stat inflated era.
In fact Irvin still has the 12th highest career yards/game mark with 74.9 and every single guy ahead of him played in the 2000s or 2010s (Fitzgerald is below him with 68.5). Most are still active. His numbers become stellar when you look at yards/team passing attempt. He and Jerry Rice are basically ahead everyone else, especially during their career peaks.
He truly was the Play Maker.
I won’t post the link, but for a good Football Perspective article on the topic search “Michael Irvin Was Better Than You Think by CHASE STUART”.
I agree Rasputin, but you already said the AAFC and the AFL will be represented and Alworth, DOMINATED…besides, he helped the Cowboys win a SB, after helping the Chargers win their only AFL Championship…
Everyone I think, loves Irvin, but like Gronk, he was so strong, physical and determined, he pushed off alot, but I would put him in over Fitz, because he was the Cowboys #1 target, like Pearson, and Boldin was over Fitz, when he was with the Cards.
Just for the spirit of argument, love of NFL/Pro Football History and some good rum, here are my semifinal picks in anticipation of the Blue Ribbon Committee lists on Thursday…
20 Seniors (Depending)
WR/DE Dilweg High Interception totals
RB/OB Lewellen TD machine and great punter
OT/OG Slater Dominant blocker
OT Wistert Dominant blocker
WR Benton Best numbers other than Hutson
WR Kavanaugh Best TD and Yardage Avg Pcts
WR Howton Leading Receiver at retirement
DE Brito High quality, shorter career
QB Conerly No Vince Lombardi without him
CB Woodson First great bump and run corner
OT Hill Expectations of protecting Namath
OT Tyrer AFLs most decorated lineman
LB Howley Should have been 60s All Decade
DE Greenwood Six time Hall Finalist
DB Shell Better impact than any SS
OG Kuech All Time Eight Hall Nominations
WR Branch Speed Kills with Three SBs
LB Gradishar Great Linebacker
RB Anderson Went from Cards to SB MVP
OT Kenn Great Technical Pass Blocker
Eight Coaches (Depending)
Shaughnessy Innovative on both sides of ball
Parker Built team that won 3/4 Champs
Flores Coached on All Raider Champions
Coryell Most Hall coaching nominations
Shanahan Coached on 3/5 SB Champions
Johnson Built team that won three SBs
Siefert Coached on every SF SB Champs
Knox Great Coach without Great QB
Contributors
Vainisi Had the guts to hire Lombardi in GB
Haley Helped develop Steeler Dynasty
Parrish Player Advocate who called out NFL
Kotal Pioneer in NFL Player Scouting
Kilroy Great player and executive
Siwoff Pioneer in NFL Statistics and Pcts
Young Restored NY Giant Glory
Razzano Helped build SF Champions
Didnt come out right with comments above…
20 Players
Dilweg
Lewellen
Slater
Wistert
Benton
Kavanaugh
Howton
Brito
Conerly
A Woodson
Hill
Tyrer
Howley
Greenwood
D Shell
Kuechenberg
Branch
Gradishar
O Anderson
Kenn
8 Head Coaches
Shaughnessy
Parker
Flores
Coryell
Shanahan
Johnson
Siefert
Knox
Contributors
Vainisi
Haley
Parrish
Kotal
Kilroy
Siwoff
Young
Razzano
“According to Clark Judge, Blue Ribbon panel semifinal list will be released on Thursday, at 1pm if Tony has a new thread ready Paul ?”
Yep, I will submit a new topic that evening.
Blue Ribbon Panel Semifinalists Predictions:
Seniors (20)
LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
T Duke Slater CHI
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
FS Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s
G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s
DT Alex Karras DET 4(5)/4 60s
DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
DE L.C.Greenwood PITTS 2/6/70’s
G Bob Kuechenberg MIA 2/6
Coaches (8)
Shaughness
Parker
Flores
Coryell
Shanahan
Johnson
Siefert
Knox
Contributors (8)
Tagliabue
Kilroy
Young
Sabol
Modell
McNally
Ralph Hay
Carroll Rosenbloom
Thanks Paul…
Bachslunch and Rasputin…have you gotten the preliminary list yet ? I will wait before commenting
preliminary list?
Yes, We were invited by Talkoffamenetwork/Maven to do a panel discussion/vote on the ten Seniors, two coaches and three contributors, basically mirroring the Blue Ribbon Committee, though unofficial of course. We are starting out with a preliminary list submitted by TOF, that will be for semifinalists, where we vote, like the BRC, then proceed. Already, this list is controversial, and I will comment later.
Yes, but as you said on Twitter we should probably keep discussions on that topic secret for now.
cool, I will look for it when it comes out on TOF, guess you better rush to it it semi-finalists are announced in just two days!!, and do we know when panel will announce their official election results of the 15 selected??
Youre right, Rasputin…
I have already submitted my Semifinal list and not happy about it
BTW, make sure to check your twitter from time to time. I figure that setup is a good way for discussion while maybe using the email route for questions to Clark and formal list submitting.
I’m on twitter if you want to contact me
Yes, I got the preliminary list. Agreed there were a few thoughts I had, which I’ve shared with appropriate folks.
Ha Ha, bachslunch, I like that phrasing. I proposed a solution to the appropriate folks last night that he said he agreed with and would enact today.
Yup, got the revised list, and my major concern was addressed. Just finished preparing my 20/10/8 list with comments and submitted it.
Rasputin, I’m nothing if not diplomatic. You know, the old “catch more flies with honey than vinegar” thing. But who wants to catch flies, anyway?
Frogs. But enough about the French. What matters here is that things are moving in the right direction. Did he say anything about adding comments. My posting history shows I’m not afraid to articulate my opinions, but if we’re just secretly emailing this stuff I was leaning toward just listing the names.
Rasputin, I’m not sure. Thought I saw something about that on one of the ToF threads, but I could be misremembering. I did it anyway. If it’s useful, fine — if not, no biggie.
Clark has always been cool. They didn’t have to do that, but I appreciate it.
Sorry Paul, will let you know as soon as I hear something about BRC Inductee Announcements.
After tomorrow, I still think it should be Jan 2nd, so this group gets to be celebrated a month before the Chiefs win the Super Bowl
Jan 2 would seem pretty quick, just 2 weeks from semi-finalist announcement, especially considering next step is for panel to meet together to discuss and vote on those elected
Maybe during divisional playoffs, weekend ?
Speaking of the Chiefs…
If Ray Lewis can win a SB after evading jail time
Why not Tyreeks Hill and Shady “The Bugman ” McCoy ?
I heard rumors that NFL Films has tons of footage of the KC Cheerleaders from the 60s and 70s…Those Girls were SMOKIN…haha
Heres how i went at wr tough choices
Lance Alworth
Cris Carter
Larry Fitzgerald
Don Hutson
Steve Largent
James Lofton
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
Jerry Rice
Paul Warfield
Great choices Robert we will find out if the Receivers we’re leaked or not Friday. If it was a hoax, someone knows how to play a good joke.
Who do you think the BRC will choose tomorrow ?
Sorry guys, damn Howley didn’t make it.
Branch
Carmichael
Covert
Craig
Dillon
Dilweg
Emerson
Gradishar
Harris
Hill
Isbell
Karras
Lewellen
Nobis
Pearson
Shell
Slater
Speedier
Sprinkle
Wistert
No personnel people for contributors except Young, Kilroy
Owners
Adams
Hay
Murchison
Tagliabue shill
Model ugh !
McNally
Sabol
Siwoff
No Shaughnessy or Shanahan amongst coaches
No Knox or Schott…
Vermeil
Reeves
Parker yes
Johnson
Holmgren
Flores
Cowher
Coryell
No QBs, or Howton or Kuech or Greenwood, all time finalists, only three Offensive Linemen
You Speedie fans will be happy
GB, Dallas, Chic had multiple players
Love for Roger Craig, Carmichael, Nobis, Karras, Winston Hill, Donnie Shell
I was correct on 9 of 20 players
4 of 8 coaches
4 of 10 Owners, er… contributors
My predictions ended up players 11/20, coaches 4/8, contributors 7/10.
Solid list and really like the focus on pre 1970s players, 13 out of 20 played before 1980, and I really think final 10 elected will be same %.
Also with six first team all decade players on the list (Pearson, Harris, Howley, Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert) seems clear to me that final 10 will likely include most of them 5?
We all knew that even with 20 players, many others deserving would still be left out, and personally I prepared myself months ago that this was not going to be route for Howley.
Ten not elected will give us clear indication (for first time perhaps) and those in next tier for consideration in 2021 and beyond, same for the contributors as seven not elected are well set up for future.
CORRECTION
Also with six first team all decade players on the list (Pearson, Harris, Covert, Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert) seems clear to me that final 10 will likely include most of them 5?
Congratulations to these players and coaches…
The only thing that bugs me is that Hall finalists over five times are still not getting in.
Alot of people endorsed these players and I feel they should have been cleared as well as the 1st team All Decade choices…
Good call Paul on your predictions
Haha we are both upset Howley didn’t make it, but it may help him later, hopefully while he is alive.
I stand corrected…only 7 of 20, Pearson stayed in my mind as well.
Damn, 8 of 20…Skimmed again, Pearson was a choice I had amended
I think the current selection committee (since 2010) is doing a much better job of clearing out those deserving modern candidates via electing, plus electing full slate of 5 moderns each year, but the legacy of not electing a full slate and not electing candidates who were finalists repeatedly (pre 2010, especially in 90s and 80s) has created the backlog of deserving senior candidates. Once 10 seniors get elected, and if selection committee can continue its efforts with moderns we should start to see some improvements in deserving candidates elected and less of a senior candidate blacklog, but a problem created over 2-3 decades will take time to fix.
You’re right though, the first team All Decade choices should get in but only one from the Cowboys, probably Pearson, so it’s those five but will another team, GB have multiple players, though different eras ?
I agree that 5 first team all decades with Pearson and Harris is unlikely, but could be very possible. If there is an effort to not have players from the same team among the ten then perhaps it becomes 4 first team all decade players (Pearson, Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert)- I am certainly to have those on my final election prediction, along with Slater and 5 others (TBD)
Predictions Not Choices
Dilweg
Emerson
Pearson
Wistert
Covert
Slater
Speedier
Branch
Craig
Karras
My Remaining Choices
Branch
Lewellen
Pearson
Hill
Shell
Wistert
Slater
Gradishar
Karras
Craig
Just posted this over at PFRA and will do so here as well.
Gotta say, this is pretty good news. All of Dilweg, Lewellen, Slater, Emerson, Wistert, and Speedie got through, which is the best possible outcome one could expect. Isbell and Sprinkle are pretty marginal and I wouldn’t enshrine either, but it does suggest a really strong emphasis on getting in some of the real old-timers.
Happily surprised to see Bobby Dillon here, and too bad he just died.
Kind of surprised Winston Hill is on the list instead of Jim Tyrer. This was by far the best chance to get the latter in, and they whiffed. Hill is certainly deserving, though.
Not surprised to see Cliff Branch and Drew Pearson here, both deserving. Harold Carmichael instead of Harold Jackson is a little surprising, though the former is on the 70s all-decade team. They’re petty comparable, but Jackson has more career bulk than the other three. Also a bit surprised to see Roger Craig instead of Joe Klecko, though again the former is on an all-decade team.
Most of the player choices are deserving. I wouldn’t put in Isbell, Sprinkle, or Covert from this group, and am dubious about Craig and Nobis. But it could have been worse — a lot worse.
The biggest whiff on the coaches side is Clark Shaughnessy. Personally, I think he’s more deserving than any of the others nominated. I’m not high on Tom Flores, but not surprised he got through.
Glad to see Ralph Hay get nominated on the Contributor side. A little surprised Robert Kraft didn’t make the list, and guys like Murchison, Adams, and Modell did. The other Contributors are fine.
I say give them credit — they did pretty darned well.
I am happy with all the candidates, but disappointed that Howley and Howton didn’t get the respect they deserve but it’s all subjective.
I like Speedie and Isbell, but don’t feel they should get elected. I believe GB will be the only team with multiple players amongst the ten.
According to Pro Football Journal, John Turney ?
These are his finalists posted on Twitter
Ten Players
Covert
Dilweg
Emerson
Gradishar
Karras
Lewellen
Pearson
Shell
Slater
Wistert
Coryell
Johnson
Sabol
Siwoff
Young
2020 Blue Ribbon Panel Predictions
Seniors (10)
OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
T Duke Slater CHI
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s
DT Alex Karras DET 4(5)/4 60s
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
Coaches (2)
Flores
Coryell
Contributors (3)
Young
Sabol
McNally
I agree Rasputin, but like Paul said before…
Howley will still have some more chances but will he get to enjoy it ?
Gossellin cared about the All Decade FIRST
They will get in, though probably not both Cowboys
Howley I am confident, will get in, the next two years.
In terms of Pearson/Harris and Dilweg/Lewellen, with only ten slots and 20 deserving I don’t think the panel will elect teammates, very likely one of each set gets in but not both players.
Also pleasantly surprised that our fears of a top loaded (1970s/80s) seniors semi-finalist list were naught, agreed that panel did a very good job with this, which leaves me feeling pretty good final 10 will be solid list, and as far as I can tell blue ribbon panel is still scheduled to meet, vote and release results in early January (PFHOF website has been down all day)
“Howley will still have some more chances but will he get to enjoy it ?”
Yep, thats a real concern, and if one of Pearson or Harris is not in class of 2020, the one left out could be in line for election in 2021 or beyond, I am not very optimistic about chances for Howley any time soon, very unfortunate and sad
Maybe not Paul…
If both were to get elected, that still leaves hope for Howley because the regular committee will get back to work and they will hopefully read and correct the mistake, from all the irate fans, who will continue to push for him.
There’s not a chance that everyone on that list is more worthy of Canton than Chuck Howley is.
Who decided that Jim Covert should be on that list? Who put Nobis on that list instead of Chuck Howley? Where is Harold Jackson? All three of Branch, Carmichael and Pearson made the list, but the leading receiver of an entire decade did not?
I don’t know well enough about everyone, but Branch, Dillon, Gradishar, Harris and Wistert are all musts.
Eddie Meador and Maxie Baughan not being on here is also a crying shame.
Good thoughts Corey
Some people thought the Blue Ribbon Howley Haters, got the Harold’s confused…
Just glad at least Hill of the AFL, the ONLY one, gets consideration
just a ques who are you guys to critique a panel that the pfhof selected
What are your thoughts Robert ?
TonyP, Bill, BoKnows34, Justin ?
I respect all of them. Looking back at these threads going back to Feb, last year, alot of people were spot on these predictions.
Though Shell became a Semifinalist, other All Time Team finalists like Lipscomb, Sestak and Billy Johnson weren’t picked. Special Teams can only hope Tasker gets in.
Duke Slater seems like a lock, and Dilweg, Emerson, Speedie and Wistert/Speedie would tick off an All Decade team member from each of the 20s, 30s and 40s. I’m confident we’ll see 5 of the 6 I’ve listed from the pre 1950s
Slater
Dilweg
Emerson
Llewelyn
Wistert
Speedie
If they’re looking at ticking boxes:
1950s – Dillon
AFL or an OL – Hill
A 70s WR – one of Branch, Pearson or Carmichael
A Cowboy- Harris or Pearson
A safety – Harris or Shell
An 80s star – Craig
I’m confident we’ll see a 70s WR, a safety and either Harris or Pearson.
It could be Branch and Harris/Dillon or Pearson and Shell/Dillon. I don’t think they’ll go with both Cowboys players as I’d probably pick Jimmy Johnson as one of the coaches.
Also if I was making a first cut to 15 like they do with the modern era candidates, the five I’d drop first are Covert, Isbell, Carmichael , Nobis and Sprinkle.
It would be great if the we could see more of this transparency with the Seniors nominees In future like we do with the modern era list.
Great breakdown BoKnows34…
My gut feeling is that Slater will bump off one 1st team offensive lineman, unless four make the final ten which is a high number.
So I think three lineman, with Covert and Hill of the AFL missing out. Though I am pulling for Hill
Slater…20s
Emerson…30s
Wistert…40s
Dilweg (Either as WR or DE)…20s
Pearson over Harris…70s
Gradishar over Nobis…70s/80s
Karras over Sprinkle…60s
Craig over Lewellen…80s
Branch or Speedie ? … I think Branch
Shell or Dillon ? … I think Shell
Really tough calls on the Safeties and Wide Receivers, though the 50s players may win out.
“just a ques who are you guys to critique a panel that the pfhof selected”
so robert, you have never posted opinions or criticisms here on this Board, I mean that is the intent of a discussion board, right?????
And for the most part (talking about our regulars) there are some pretty knowledgeable and dedicated folks posting here, looking to have their views heard, I do not see any issue with that, I am willing to bet several of us would fit in very well if selected to serve on the PFHOF committee or blue ribbon panel.
There is this assumption that all the 48 voters, and all the 24 blue ribbon panel members, are the only experts and only ones deserving to serve, I frankly don’t believe that, not intended as a slam against everyone of them, but knowledge and opinions that are informed and well thought out are not only the domain of writers and others appointed by the Hall. We have them and should share them, we likely have little impact on the process and decisions, even though many of us have raised our questions and concerns directly with actual voters, we should continue to be active regarding our ideas and views.
“If both were to get elected, that still leaves hope for Howley because the regular committee will get back to work and they will hopefully read and c
correct the mistake, from all the irate fans, who will continue to push for him.”
Perhaps, but they will also have a list of 10 seniors not elected in 2020, plus plenty of irate fans pushing for others missing on the BRP semi-finalist list including Ken Anderson, Joe Klecko. I am not saying any of those are better choices then Howley, only that he will not be the only one needing consideration and no assurance that he will be elected any time soon, perhaps yes but no is also very likely. Appears for whatever reason there are voters simply not interested in his case or advocating for him, even with pressure by fans and others (including many here) for years.
Not my prediction, but who I would vote for:
1. Jimmy Johnson
2. Dick Vermeil
1. Art Mcnally
2. Steve Sabol
3. George Young
1. Alex karras
2. Lavie Dilweg
3. Randy Gradishar
4. Winston Hill
5. Ox Emerson
6. Cliff Branch
7. Cliff Harris
8. Donnie Shell
9. Al Wistert
10. bobby Dillon
Bill better add Duke Slater as he is certainly getting in
Get the feeling the Packers will be the only team having multiple players getting in. Now, predicting Dilweg and Dillon.
Well said, Paul.
Corey, I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially about Howley, Harold Jackson, and Meador.
While like Paul I was prepared for Howley not to be in the final 10 with this class, I’m not sure how it’s anything other than a bad sign that he wasn’t even in the top 20, especially since this so called “Blue Ribbon Panel” on paper looked more Cowboy and even Howley friendly than the normal senior committee. My guess is the epicenter of the problem is still the same person who’s on both the panel and the committee, whom I’ve discussed before, and some other….malleable people in the region just going along with what he says.
So am I the only one here who favors Ed “The Claw” Sprinkle’s induction (and not just because of the nickname, though that doesn’t hurt)?
I’m looking at an All Decade player whose 4 Pro Bowls all came from a different decade, since there was no Pro Bowl during his tenure in the decade he was named All Decade for. A guy noted as particularly violent in his era and dubbed “The Meanest Man in Football” on the cover of Collier Magazine. He helped win a championship and George Halas called him “the greatest pass rusher I’ve ever seen.” A pioneer who helped establish modern pass rushing in the early days of the T formation.
Colliers.
Push for first team all decade players (Pearson, Harris) by more than one BRP member, really hurt Howley
They should have pushed Howley for induction first and then made the Pearson/Harris pitch. Those two are much younger and frankly not quite as deserving as Howley on resume.
I don’t think it was much as a Pearson/Harris pitch as much as first team all pro pitch
so i was on twitter earlier today and i saw a bunch of bengals fans throw a fit about anderson and riley not making it on the centennial ballot and my thought is that ken anderson only had 4 hof seasons 74 75 81-82 and had a really bad stretch from 76-80
sorry about what i said yesterday wasnt feeling 100%
Paul, they’re clearly not entirely separate things.
My point is that members of the BRP have made first team all pro players a priority, that has moved 2 Cowboys into consideration while pushing Howley aside. It’s very unfortunate but clearly what has happened
My point was that fixating primarily on an arbitrary, calendar driven metric that doesn’t equally fit players’ career spans is a frankly stupid oversimplification that’s leading to more deserving candidates being passed over for less deserving ones.
That’s aside from the possibility that the main guy pushing this All Decade theme may have seen it as a cheap and easy way to land Harris and Pearson in Canton in short order without having to tax the brain or energy reserves too much by making individual-specific arguments, after which he’d pat himself on the back and write a column essentially announcing his intention to rest on his laurels as he did about a decade ago. A cop out.
You know sometimes Rasputin, you need to quit being so shy and tell us how you really feel…Haha
Though Howley is more deserving, if Pearson is elected, I will feel somewhat better.
So what’s the verdict on the All Time Wide Receivers ? Hoax or leaked list ?
Nevermind…it was a leak.
I have no problem with Hirsch, who Rasputin predicted, but others, including Pro Football Journal, did.
That’s the thing Robert, alot of Bengals might be worthy, like Parrish, Riley, Reid and Bergey but who do you put in ? They cancel each other out.
Krumrie, is the all time leading tackler amongst nose tackles, but hasn’t even gotten anywhere.
Anderson was up and down, but many like him.
He was certainly better than Cecil Isbell.
To be clear, I wasn’t PREDICTING the show’s list. Those were my own choices. And I canceled my series record after the leak so I’m glad I apparently didn’t miss anything worth watching.
You don’t seem too reluctant to share your opinions either, Brian, lol.
I know Hirsch was your choice, I read your choices, and like me, you got 8 out 10 right, but by God, it was a great, predicted choice, so please don’t hurt your arm, haha…I thought Lofton would get in myself because Swann, though a great receiver, has low numbers. But enough about correct choices and predictions, we gotta keep getting our voices loud about Howley, like I tried on Talk Of Fame Network tonight and Pro Football Journal tonight.
brian i replied to you comment on pro football journal ill comment on your talk of fame comments shortly
Brian, I got 10 out of 10 right. The show got 8 out of 10 right.
ok is it somehow posssible that in the case of chuck howley that lee roy jordan and chuck howley cancel each other out or maxie baughan and howley cancel each other out
You also got 20/20 right, but like I asked Bachs, who kept his number secret, how many of your choices did the BRC or Panel, pick for Semifinalists ?
I got 8 of 20, and it would have been 9 of 20, if someone didn’t follow your “advice” on TOF.
Your right Robert, which I have said before.
Great teammates cancel each other out, but in the Cowboys case, you got teammates that somehow made 1st Team All Decade in Harris and Pearson and this panel liked teammates Dilweg and Lewellen from the 29, 30, 31 Champion Packers, which is unique. Then the panel picks three receivers from the same decade !! They also pick multiple players from four teams ?
It’s doubtful these four teams have multiple players in the top 10 except for possibly, GB.
That’s why I believe Howton wasn’t picked, because of the other four Packers.
That’s why I chose Howley over Pearson and Harris.
He deserved to go in FIRST. Even John Turney believed he should have been 60s All Decade.
Also, which will make most of you guys happy, with three receivers from the 70s, one or two could cancel each other out, which opens the door for 40s player Speedie, which BoKnows pointed out.
LOL, what “advice” was that? You mean how we went out of our way to make the ToF list different from the BRP’s by adding some players they had completely overlooked in their preliminary list? Despite that…
The BRP made 9 of the same choices I did for players out of 20, 4 out of 10 contributors, and 5 out of 8 coaches.
Because Rasputin, you’re someone who gets things done.
I got 8/20 4/8 coaches and 4/10 contributors
I submitted my choices of Finalists for Induction, but may resubmit my predictions of the Blue Ribbon Howley Haters, choices
I think your right brian Pearson Carmichael and branch could cancel each other out with speedie being the beneficiary and is is possible that verne lewellen and dilweg cancel each other out does that help out ox emerson?
That’s not right if Baughan and Howley cancel each other out when they’re two of, if not the two most deserving seniors in the entire pool.
I mean, there’s some people I’m happy for on that that I hope get elected, but I’m honestly underwhelmed at that list.
Branch, Dillon, Gradishar, Hill, Harris and Wistert get my support for Canton. I don’t know well enough about Duke Slater or pre World War II era football, so I’m neither going to support nor object.
However, for me to support someone like Carmichael, like Pearson, Nobis, the logjam at that position would have to be cleared, and it hasn’t. That’s why I can’t support their enshrinement at this time.
I don’t see Jimbo Covert as a Hall of Famer, and this is coming from a diehard Bears fan. If you wanted to nominate a Bear, why not Fortunato?
I believe Emerson is in, because it’s obvious about 1st team All Decade, though I am hoping Hill gets in over Covert, because the AFL needs representation.
I believe at least 3 Lineman, 2 Receivers and 2 safeties will get picked.
Though I am extremely excited for Pearson, like many people are, Harris could still take his spot, opening the door for Branch or the other Harold…
I am saving my comments about Harris for later.
Corey, speaking of Bears…Do you think Covert could cancel out Sprinkle ?
I am old and used to watch Covert. He was good but not dominant as an eight year player. Payton made all the linemen look good but this line was only great when McMahon played QB.
I just don’t know enough about Sprinkle except his rough reputation, but at 215 lbs, hell, he had to be.
I thought Gene Britos speed and pass rush ability was better for 50s pash rushers.
I believe Kavanaugh or Harlon Hill are deserving HOF Bears
It shouldn’t. If they played on opposite ends of the football and different eras, they shouldn’t be cancelled out. You could have so many other offensive linemen – Ed Budde, Dick Schafrath, John Niland, Bob Talamini, George Kunz, Jim Ray Smith, Ken Gray, even Len Hauss, yet you chose Jimbo Covert? Two time Pro Bowler Jim Covert?
Honestly, I could support Roger Craig, too.
Underwhelmed really corey ?
I’m very much underwhelmed. I’m disappointed many are deceased and weren’t inducted when they are alive. I look at recently deceased players like Branch, Dillon and Wistert. Why now? Why give us Jimbo Covert and not another lineman who played around the time Hill played? Why give us Donnie Shell but not Eddie Meador?
Why give us Drew Pearson and Harold Carmichael when Billy Howton, Del Shofner and Harold Jackson are all waiting their turns? How do you justify not giving us Chuck Howley?
They had a chance to make this something special and clean up some major omissions, which they still can do, but some of these choices are lacking.
Though I agree Corey, it’s still great for older players to get a chance, that may never come again.
That’s why I wish these ten players and two coaches could be announced BEFORE the owners/ contributors.
The thought of Modell, Tagliabue and other owners getting in, are kind of like farts after the feast.
I am convinced that if Kraft wasn’t having his Willy and The Hand Jive act in Florida, not to mention the latest, if-their-not-cheating-their-not-trying scandal in Cincinnati…He would be voted in.
Brian, got a good laugh at your recent comments. Very clever, very funny!
But man, gotta say — if you really remember the song “Willie and the Hand Jive,” you must be older than dirt.
Thanks Bachs, can’t rant and rave all the time.
Quit being secret, how did you do on your choices ?
I got 8/20 players, 4/8 coaches but only 4/10 contributors, because one was sent in to late. Hope Clark can let us know when Finalists are announced…already sent in my list
Wow…was looking at comments going back to 2009 on this site, I never realized how passionate you guys are about great players and NFL history. I feel honored, to discuss players and topics with you guys but wish I had been a part of this site back then. I had broken up with a girl I truly loved, and this site and it’s passion for football would have helped me keep my mind off her. I just hope that all the commenters from back then, who may not be commenting now, can come back and continue to exchange ideas, debates and viewpoints, that I truly appreciate, whether I agree or not.
We all know Pro Football has changed from what we loved and enjoyed. This site and others keeps the history and the great players alive, remembered, and cherished amongst true fans.
Thanks for letting me be a part of it.
everywhere else i see corey they said the blue ribbon panel did a great job my ques is why are you against those familes getting their day in the sun
Brian, I never really did a prediction of who the top 20/10;8 would be. I submitted who I would have liked to see to Clark, but not sure if he would want it revealed just yet.
And yeah, this place has been a great forum for HoF discussion over the years. Been fun to be part of it, and glad to have some new blood come along.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think All Decade should be the be all, end all, with this committee? Yes, it’s very crucial for any prospective Hall of Fame candidate, but shouldn’t the voters look at the other accolades to see if their All Decade selection was justified or if they were a glaring omission from an All Decade Team?
All decade should not be the end all. Just like pro bowl selections. There have been some poor choices for both. For instance this uear Von Miller made the Pro Bowl. I saw everyone snap of football for the Broncos this year and he wasnt even the best linebacker on his own team.. Simmons had a superior year and so did Jaime collins of the Patriots and Bud Dupree of the steelers and many others.
The thing about Pro Bowls now versus back then is Pro Bowls are voted on by the fans. That wasn’t always the case.
Winston Hill
Cecil Isbell
Harold Carmichael
Have the toughest chance to get in.
Mac Speedie
Donnie Shell
Played on Dynasty teams that already have many players enshrined. Six offensive teammates for Cleveland, Four defensive teammates for Pitts.
Lewellen
Dilweg
Harris
Pearson
Will all four get in ? Or do they cancel each other out ? Though Dilweg has the advantage.
The thing is, though, having a lot of members from a dynasty in Canton didn’t stop Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson from getting their well deserved enshrinement. I ask myself how Curley Culp and Dave Robinson got in, though. I know the Chiefs won only one Super Bowl, but multiple AFL titles.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind Andy Russell being elected from those Steeler teams because he was already established by the time Jack Lambert and Jack Ham came around.
I just think Eddie Meador should be getting the nod instead of Donnie Shell here. He wouldn’t be the worst person on those teams in Canton, with that distinction belonging to Lynn Swann, but there’s nothing exceptional that sticks out to me when discussing Shell.
I’ll take Cliff Harris. Drew Pearson is just way down the chain for me in the pool. A great deal of the senior logjam would have to clear for me to support Nobis, Pearson and Carmichael.
Speaking of All Decade, how did Isbell make the 1930s All Decade Team when he came into the league in 1938? We can’t just take All Decade at face value. We need to dig deeper.
Yes, but despite his HOF teammates, Shell has more championships, tackles, forced turnovers, including interceptions than Meador, Harris or Polamalu, who may be a 1st ballot choice. Dillon had one more interception, but played on bad Packer teams.
Greenwood has a case as well. He not only kept Staubach from having two additional SBs, but ended his career, with the sack and concussion in Pittsburgh, which forced Staubach to retire.
Culp had to go in. He was the best all time nose tackle. Smerlas and Krumrie should get in as well.
Those guys absorbed offensive linemen.
Teams win championships, players get enshrined into the Hall of Fame. Meador also has the Pro Bowl and All Decade edge on Shell. Dillon also was blind in one eye and managed to be an incredible defensive back. That should count for something. Dillon was also a four-time First Team All Pro who arguably should’ve made the 1950s team.
When you look at the players not in Canton, many seniors had more impressive resumes than Culp and Shell.
I agree with you Corey that they really should dig a bit deeper with these All Decade selections to see if there are any glaring mistakes.
Jim Covert is a finalist, but only went to two Pro Bowls and get was named first team All Decade. The more decorated Joe Jacoby, both individually with All Pros and with team success, was named second team All Decade behind Covert and has been snubbed by the BRP.
Maxie Baughan was also omitted from the 1960s All Decade team, in favour of Tommy Nobis, despite having 9 Pro Bowls to Nobis’ 5, and 7 All Pros to just two for Nobis. But Nobis was selected for the 1960s All Decade team instead of Baughan and the same thing has happened here again.
Brian, it’s just a hunch but I’m beginning to think they’ll go with a split of 5 v 5 from before and after 1960 to balance the class.
I’m also beginning to think that if they go with two Packers it will be Dilweg and Dillon as they’re from a different era rather than teammates with Dilweg and Lewellen.
Duke Slater appears to be a lock and Dilweg would add another player from the 1920s.
Emerson ticks the box for the 30s and Wistert does the same for the 40s. Both were also All Decade. Lewellen wasn’t.
For the more modern seniors (post 1960), Alex Karras and Randy Gradishar are two of my selections and cover DL/60s and a LB.
There’s going to be a 70s WR and a Cowboy so for me I’m going with Branch and Harris. That leaves one more spot and again just a hunch I think they might choose someone like a Roger Craig who has just slipped into the Seniors pool.
As usual, good observations guys.
The Hall has many great DT, DE, pass rushers but needs more Nose tackles who stopped the run and freed up linebackers. Henry Thomas of the Vikes played shade/nose tackle against the run, but also had 93 sacks as a defensive tackle. Pretty impressive. I want to see Karras get in as well.
I see a 6/4 split on pre/post sixties players, Boknows…Speedie is very popular…but those are predictions, not my choices.
Agreed that a deeper dive into all-decade teams is a good idea. There are a lot of worthy choices on them, but also some head scratchers. Plus guys whose teams straddle decades often lose out.
Re Jim Covert, I have no idea why he’s on the all-80s team and neither Jackie Slater nor Mike Kenn aren’t.
Plus guys whose careers straddle decades…
Brian, Greenwood didn’t end Staubach’s career any more than LaVar Arrington “retired” Aikman as some of the more….let’s be nice and say simple minded…Redskins fans like to boast (in a game the Cowboys still won, btw :)). Both QBs retired after receiving a LOT of concussions from a lot of different people. It wasn’t a single hit but the total accumulation that prompted the medical judgment calls.
I agree with Bachslunch, Corey, and others. All Decade is a legitimate feather in one’s cap that should be noted, but it’s not the only thing that matters. Larry Morris was a terrible pick for the 1960s team. Ronnie Lott for the 90s team was pretty bad too.
The truth is these HoF voters make mistakes, on all decade voting and enshrinement decisions.
Did playing for arguably the greatest team of all time, the 1985 Bears, thrust Covert into the spotlight over Kenn’s Falcons, who didn’t make the Super Bowl until the 1998 season? Some Super Bowl winning teams are more memorable than others, too. If the Falcons had won that Supet Bowl against the Broncos, how truly memorable would they have been?
I do think Kenn has a better case for All Decade and Canton, too, than Covert does. I’m not saying Kenn should be in Canton or that I’m going to start vouching for him over the other seniors I’ve discussed ad nauseum in all my years posting here, but I cannot look at Covert and say Hall of Famer.
There’s a lot of people I’d put in before Karras, who has the Fame, but he doesn’t jump at me the way he used to upon me learning more about other candidates.
For those who want to argue championship teams, somebody who knows all about that is Marv Fleming, the first player to play in five Super Bowls, winning four. He was on both the Lombardi Packers and the 1972 Dolphins. He’s not getting in, nor should he, because four rings are impressive, but he doesn’t have the other accolades. He had no Pro Bowls or All Pros.
Compare that to the man whom I believe to be the best tight end In the senior pool. Pete Retzlaff won one NFL Championship in 1960, but also made five Pro Bowls and twice a first-team All Pro. I’m not the most ardent Retzlaff supporter, and others are bigger concerns for me, but I do think Retzlaff should be in the Hall of Fame. He’d be a solid choice.
Using the championships argument would be saying Marv Fleming would be more worthy of Canton than Pete Retzlaff, and I just can’t go along with that.
If we look at the complete picture of candidates, then, in my opinion, we can establish our pecking order. Not every candidate, even the most deserving ones, will check off every box, but the ones who check off the most boxes, coupled with the quantity in said boxes (e.g. nine Pro Bowls for Baughan compared to one for Nobis, two First Team All Pro selections for Baughan, none for Nobis), them it should be clear who belongs higher up on the food chain, especially when Baughan made all nine of his Pro Bowls in a single decade when Nobis didn’t join the league until 2966, yet somehow the latter got All Decade.
This is a very confusing process. Let’s just hope some injustices get corrected this year, which will allow the correction of greater injustices in subsequent years.
Correction, 1966 for Nobis.
That’s the thing about Staubach. When the Falcons knocked him out of the 78 playoff with a concussion, Staubach played tough the next week vs LA and won, before losing in a SB, that fires me up to this day, and will comment on later.
Then, he has that terrible concussion to Greenwood and Pittsburgh in Three Rivers, in 79. Staubach being a warrior, he leads Dallas into the playoffs beating Washington, so the Cowboys play the Rams. What many Cowboys fans don’t know unless they have seen the game on replay, is that Staubach had another concussion late in the game, but kept playing, and wasn’t the same, which is why Dallas couldn’t come back and lost.
So the Atlanta game concussion in 78/79
Concussion in Pittsburgh the next year in 79
Concussion against Rams in 79/80 playoff, forced his retirement.
When Jim Swantz of the Cowboys gave Steve Young a concussion in a 96 game, it started a later concussion trail for Young that ended his career in 99.
Retzlaff and Jerry Smith had better hands and numbers than Mackey, but Mackey gets in the Hall instead. Though he is deserving.
Corey, that’s a good question regarding Jim Covert being on the 1980s all-decade team. His career is short and his honors are a thin 2/2/80s.
But the all-decade teams have a few other odd Bear additions, most notably Joe Fortunato on the 1950s team (when he earned no honors at all) and Larry Morris on the 1960s team (he actually did play during the decade a good amount, but earned no honors at all). I wonder if there wasn’t a big-time Bear homer on those committees who did a Frankie Frisch style push-through. Maybe even had a deal with a Packer-oriented committee member to team up and put Covert and John Anderson on the 80s team. Committee dynamics are a funny thing sometimes.
Re Pete Retzlaff and Jerry Smith — I think both have excellent Canton arguments, and Ron Kramer certainly merits a look as well. Retzlaff played TE only for the last four years of his career, at least officially, and he retired after the 1966 season, which probably didn’t help his case for a 60s all-decade team nod. And Smith only had four seasons as a regular TE during the 60s — plus who knows if sexual orientation prejudice may have come into play (I don’t think he was officially “out” at the time, but it wouldn’t surprise me if folks knew anyway). Plus Smith was essentially a big WR — in fact, folks who might think Kellen Winslow deserves innovator credit for this type of TE need to go back further at least to Smith as the prototype. John Mackey’s career fits better within the confines of a 60s time span, plus he was reportedly a devastating blocker. But this was a heyday for fine TEs anyway — Mike Ditka, Jackie Smith, and Ron Kramer aren’t on the all-60s team, either, and two of them are HoFers. Tough, tough competition, especially if you’re only choosing one player.
I have been a big Retzlaff supporter on this website for years. I thought for sure he had a chance to be one of the players on the semi finalist list. I would also agree that Joe Jacoby and Mike Kenn would have been a better choice than Jim Covert, although I could argue that he should have made two more additional Pro Bowls.
Retzlaff has more honors. Smith has slightly better numbers.
Who, in your opinion, is more deserving?
I believe Retzlaff is more deserving. Jerry Smith is with the next group for me: Russ Francis, Todd Christensen, Marc Bavaro
Good Question id take retzlaff over smith in a heartbeat i looked at both of their stats and the only stat smith beats retzlaff in is in td passes 61-47
Retzlaff is a very tricky scenario for me. I back his case for Canton. I’m not lukewarm about him the way Inam Pearson, Carmichael, Nobis, Jordan, Shell, etc. if Retzlaff was nominated for 2021, I’d be happy, but I also have many ahead of him in ny rankings.
Just curious, where does everybody else rank Retzlaff? I rank him highly enough that I believe he should be in, but if the Centennial List of 20 was up to me, I’m not sure he’d be on there.
I agree with you corey on retzlaff he is a very very tricky case indeed not in my top 10 just outside hes behind kuechenberg greenwood Meador Boyd
Who is in everybody’s Top 20? I’m convinced Harris, Hill, Branch, Dillon, Wistert and Gradishar were correct. It’s not easy at all. You could have 10 worthy finalists easily who aren’t on my Top 20.
My Top 20 is in no particular order except for No. and No. 2. I find those to be clear.
1. Chuck Howley
2. Maxie Baughan
3. Billy Howton
4. Del Shofner
5. Randy Gradishar
6. Eddie Meador
7. Harold Jackson
8. Cliff Harris
9. Winston Hill
10. Walt Sweeney
11. Dick Schafrath
12. Joey Browner
13. Deron Cherry
14. Bobby Dillon
15. George Kunz
16. Bob Talamini
17. Cliff Branch
18. Larry Grantham
19. Al Wistert
20. Joe Fortunato
Then you have others – Dick Barwegan, Pete Retzlaff, Jerry Smith, Jim Ray Smith, Duane Putnam, John Niland, Ed Budde, Jeff Van Note, Andy Russell, Bobby Boyd, Pat Fischer, Lemar Parrish, Art Powell, Charley Hennigan, Bob Kuechenberg, L.C. Greenwood, Ken Gray, Matt Blair, Isaiah Robertson, Gino Cappelletti, Abe Woodson, Donnie Shell, Karl Mecklenburg.
Also, would someone like to explain how Harold Carmichael is a better candidate than Harold Jackson?
Pro Bowls
Jackson 5
Carmichael 4
First Team All-Pro
Jackson 1
Carmichael 0
Receptions
Carmichael 590
Jackson 579
Receiving Yards
Jackson 10,372
Carmichael 8,985
Touchdowns
Carmichael 79
Jackson 76
Times led the league in receptions
Jackson 1
Carmichael 1
Times led the league in receiving yards
Jackson 2
Carmichael 1
Times led the league in touchdowns
Jackson 1
Carmichael 0
Jackson led an entire decade in all three categories of receptions, yards and touchdowns. Yet, Carmichael was All Decade and a Centennial finalist. Jackson wasn’t.
I’m convinced most of the players in Canton deserve to be in there. You have some unworthy players – Namath, Stabler, Swann, Dave Robinson. Most get my seal of approval, though.
Even then, the committee has clearly dropped the ball in the years. They dropped the ball this year. Having Carmichael over Jackson is just one example of that.
If you selected a player with four Pro Bowls and no All Pro Teams, Andy Russell, Jeff Van Note and Len Hauss would all like a word with the committee as players who were never an All Pro like Carmichael but made more Pro Bowls than Carmichael did.
I can do another comparison
Pro Bowls
Jackson 5
Pearson 3
First Team All Pro
Pearson 3
Jackson 1
Receptions
Jackson 579
Pearson 489
Times led the league in receptions
Jackson 1
Pearson 0
Times led the league in receiving yards
Jackson 2
Pearson 1
(Both times by the way, Jackson eclipsed 1,000 yards when he led the league, Pearson did not. Jackson’s two best seasons in terms of yardage exceed Pearson’s best, even if by a slight margin).
Times led the league in touchdowns
Jackson 1
Pearson 0
(Jackson once caught 13 in one season, nine in another. Pearson did neither).
Basically, Pearson was a star receiver for America’s team that won a Super Bowl. That’s what I see what I look at him. I am not convinced that either one of Drew Pearson nor Harold Carmichael were better receivers than Harold Jackson was. The more I research and type out these numbers, the more I dislike the selections of Pearson and Carmichael over Jackson even more than I did before.
Your frustrations are well founded Corey.
Jackson, along with Howley, Howton, Meador, Baughan, Retzlaff and others should have had a chance.
Retzlaff was an excellent big possession wide receiver, who converted to tight end as he got older. He had great hands who caught everything over the middle, like a 60s version of Dwight Clark.
Gary Collins of the Browns, Chris Burford of the Chiefs in the AFL and Boyd Dowler of the Packers were probably the most similar to him, but I believe Retzlaff had more ability. To me, he was the prototype to the Jackie and Jerry Smith type receiving tight ends, Bob Trumpy included, who evolved into Winslow, Christensen and Newsome.
Raymond Chester and Rich Caster, another wide out, fit this bill as well.
The only reason that Dowler, Ron Kramer and Carrol Dale, another underrated 60s receiver, don’t get their due, is because the Packers already have a lot of players from that era, in the Hall.
I just hope Winston Hill, Pearson and Branch get in.
Though I disagree with your opinion about Namath, there would be no Broadway Joe, and an AFL/ SB Championship, without Hill’s blindside pass protection.
Yes, Jackson had the numbers and should be part of this group but since he isn’t, Branch is the next great deep threat who should get in the Hall. He has the numbers, the postseason numbers, SBs and speed that also opened up the Raiders running game.
Pearson is a tougher case because he was a clutch receiver with a SB and great postseason numbers but his TD totals are low. He was better with Staubach than Danny White.
But like George Allen once said, he was a great possession receiver who went over the middle and beat double coverage.
If he is voted in, his acceptance speech, and how Staubach believed in him as an undrafted rookie college QB, who stayed after practice, and BECAME a wide receiver…will inspire and move everyone in attendance.
Good point, Brian. We’ve seen from his draft announcement in Philly that Pearson can give a rousing speech, lol.
Everyone have a Merry Christmas.
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas all!! And planning a new topic thread on the finalists after January 2nd announcement- so get ready then to post your predictions and debates
Merry Christmas guys…
Call me crazy Rasputin, but that speech by Pearson inspired the Eagles to “Fly”….
Think about it, Wentz played his best ball ever
Then Foles played his best ball ever
Coincidence ?
That leaping sideline catch, that the referees gave to Pearson, by calling a forceout, BEFORE the Hail Mary TD catch to beat the Vikings in the Met in the 1975 playoffs, was the greatest clutch catch, I have ever seen.
Passing stats, HOF or not, don’t be surprised if Namath makes the list tonight guys. This list has winners and throwers and as both, Namath was a Superstar quite different than Johnny U, the best play caller of all time.
My Top 10 (Winners not talent)
Montana
Brady
Unitas
Staubach
Bradshaw
Elway
Layne
Graham
Favre
Starr
Talent wise…Namath, Young, Griese, Baugh, Luckman, Van Brocklin, Anderson, Marino, Rodgers Moon, Fouts, Esiason, Bledsoe, Brees
Meant to put Winners plus talent…worded it wrong.
Duh Friday night, unless it’s leaked.
Corey i agree 100% I saw the same thing when looking at jackson vs all those receivers
I’m not as down on On Carmichael as some of you are, although I do believe there were at least a dozen other players I would have put on this list before him. He was very unique for his time (size/speed combo) and their only down the field weapon. I’m not sure if you guys remember Harold Jackson or saw him play Live. I feel like you guys are just rattling off his stats without knowing his impact, which is what you have to do when analyzing NFL hall of famers. It is the reason why Doak Walker, Charley Trippi, Dick Stanfel, Arnie Weinmeister, Paul Hornung and others are in the HOF.
I remember watching Harold Jackson and when he played, i do not remember thinking “sure-fire” hall of famer. A comp that I would give him to slightly more modern players include: Henry Ellard and Irving Fryar. If either of those two ended up in the HOF, I would be shocked.
The 10 guys to be chosen tonight at QB
1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton manning
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Dan Marino
6. Sammy Baugh
7. John Elway
8. Brett favre
9. Otto Graham
10. Drew Brees
Feel bad that I cann ot put Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers and Bart Starr on the list.
I watched Ellard, Fryar and Jackson play, and thought all of them were tough professionals
Ellard played for some poor QBs, but was Jim Everett’s primary target with the Rams. Unlike the horizontal passing game going on today, the Rams threw the ball downfield and liked to throw a lot of deep slants and skinny post patterns than Ellard thrived on. When Rams assistant Norv Turner came to Dallas, he brought the same offence that allowed Irvin to thrive.
Fryar was a physical speciman, who underachieved in New England early, before getting his act together and showing how good a player he could be. Like Ellard, he played with mostly mediocre QBs before hooking up with Marino in Miami. To this day, I think that was Jimmy Johnson’s biggest mistake in Miami, was letting Fryar go. The Dolphins never replaced him, and Fryar played well with the Eagles.
I saw Jackson with the Patriots, and even in his 30s he had great speed paired with Stanley Morgan, who had great speed, but I thought, dropped to many balls. With their fast receivers, great running attack and tough but inconsistent defence, I felt this team should have won a SB in the late 70s.
Grogan despite talent, just couldn’t win big games.
He may not ever make the HOF, but I was a huge fan of Jets receiver Wesley Walker, a great deep threat who played with a bad eye. Imagine if he played with Marino or Fouts…
Roger Staubach would be my 11th player
The numbers that Walker would have put up would have been awesome
Hell, the Jets quit throwing to Walker as his career wound down. He should have crossed 10,000 yrds.
Here on zoneblitz, we, as well as the voters, may use whichever criteria they wish.
I cannot choose when I was born. I can’t help that I’m a millennial who was born in the early 1990s and wasn’t alive when many of the senior pool candidates were active.
So, I may not have seen them, but you know who did? Players and coaches, who used to be the ones who decided on the Pro Bowl before the fans did. Apparently, Jackson’s peers thought he was worthy of the honor more times than they thought of Carmichael.
The people who selected the All Pro teams must not have held Carmichael in too much higher of a regard than they held Jackson, since both were First Team only once.
Numbers matter. We can’t say stats count for nothing, and when you lead an entire decade in three major categories at your position, that’s an All Decade omission.
I’m with Corey on this one. If we’re going to downgrade Harold Jackson, it needs to be for a good reason.
For me, I don’t care about whether I saw the person play at the time or not. I care about honors, stats well used, and film study (or film study reports I trust). The numbers and honors for me push Harold Jackson a bit beyond the rest because his are ER was longer and he put up better counting stats. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with Cliff Branch, Drew Pearson, and Harold Carmichael getting in the HoF someday. But I’m hard-pressed to see Jackson as inferior to the other three. YMMV.
…because his career was longer…
Damn autocorrect.
If you believe in emphasing the fame part of the Hall of Fame, I think Pearson and Carmichael have the edge because I knew who both of them were before I started studying more history and debating the Hall of Fame with others here on Zoneblitz: I honestly don’t think I had ever heard of Harold Jackson until reading about him on here many years ago.
The truth is, though, that a player can quietly have a great career, and in all of my years talking with others here about the Hall of Fame and reading up on stats and history – based on numbers and honors, I have uncovered little-to-no evidence that Harold Carmichael was a better receiver than Harold Jackson.
Good points corey
Thank you.
Modern finalists announced on NFL Network next Thursday Jan 2 at 6p
Overall, a good list of QBs…though Manning, and Marino weren’t the winners that Luckman, Layne Bradshaw and Starr were. Great throwers, but so were Fouts, Brees and Rodgers.
A tough list to do. Without the help of HGH in Denver, and the 2015/2016 SB win, no way Manning makes this list. A great QB, but like Favre, too many early exits in the playoffs, though it’s a team game.
Good job Bill, 9 out of 10
ill just leave this here
More Touchdown Passes than Interceptions
1.Tom Brady +361
2.Drew Brees +307
3.Peyton Manning +288
4.Aaron Rodgers +279
5.Brett Favre 172
6.Dan Marino +168
7.Joe Montana +134
8.Steve Young +125
9.Fran Tarkenton +76
10.John Elway +74
11.Roger Staubach +44
12.Otto Graham +39
13.Johnny Unitas +37
14.Bart Starr +14
15.Troy Aikman +22
16. Dan Fouts +12
17.Sid Luckman +5
18.Terry Bradshaw +2
19.Norm Van Brocklin -5
20.Sammy Baugh -16
21.Bobby Layne -47
22.Joe Namath -47
I’m not sure about Staubach. He’d probably be the only selection I’d question.
How does anybody object to Peyton Manning being on this list? Regardless of what he did in the playoffs, you cannot discount five regular season MVPs. You just can’t. Others won more in January, but the amount of MVPs alone makes him a shoo-in.
Marino never won a ring, but this is one of the absolute best ever to do it. The man was decades ahead of his time. He was the first (and only) to pass for 5,000 yards and wouldn’t be joined for a quarter of a century. He didn’t just break Y.A. Tittle’s passing touchdown record, he smashed it. We look at the numbers quarterbacks put up these days, and Marino was doing this stuff before they were even born.
These lists are mostly about longevity and volume stats. But honestly having watched most of these guys play a lot over the years, in their primes I’d take Troy Aikman over most of them. He doesn’t have the extreme volume stats or elite longevity but he’s the most accurate thrower in NFL history, tough, and would be in the argument for smartest of this bunch.
Aikman was never the same after losing Novachek in 96. Though he still had Irvin, he never trusted, or was comfortable with his other receivers, and Lafleur at TE and Williams at receiver we’re busts. By 98, he was getting hit to much and the team kept losing good players to free agency. By the time Arrington of the Redskins, knocked him five yards out of bounds, his frustrations with the offence, coaching staff and losing games, just took their toll, and he retired.
If anyone was a “Shoo-in” on this list, it was Staubach.
I never OBJECTED to Manning being on this list.
I BELIEVE he wouldn’t have been voted in, if he didn’t rehabilitate his neck/shoulder/arm with HGH and win the SB in 15/16. We all know he is a great QB, but before he got his second Championship, he was considered like Young and Rodgers, a great regular season QB, who didn’t win enough when it counted. Hopefully Brees can win his second as well.
Marino was a winner as well, who just didn’t have the supporting cast. To this day, I still think he was meant to be a Steeler, but Noll didn’t let it happen.
He would have won at least one SB with them.
Ahhh Brian, Payton won 4x MVP while playing with Colts, he didn’t need SB with Denver to get into the Hall, he was set with Colts career
Haha, Paul, Corey and Robert…you guys know I like spirited argument and debate, that’s what makes this site so fun.
But, we are not arguing about the Hall Paul, we are talking about the ten ALL TIME QBs, and Manning’s two championships obviously put him in, ahead of Luckman, the FIRST great T Formation QB and Steve Young, the best combo runner/passer, and Brees and Rodgers, guys that like Manning, benefitted from the rules changes. Starr could get in with his five championships and two SBs but didn’t.
Though Manning will easily get into the Hall, everyone who ever commented on this site knows that there are no Most Valuable Players, it’s all about the Most Valuable QBs, so let’s not kid ourselves. Obviously, despite Manning’s Colt career, winning a SB in Denver and being the first QB to win titles for two different teams since Norm Van Brocklin in 1960, does carry a certain cache, in voters minds.
Have to disagree as a QB with 4 MVP awards, several first team all pro and a SB, Manning’s reputation as all time Great was sealed with his colts career and if this team was picked then I fully believe he would have been on it. Very few QBs could have matched his career accomplishments at that stage of his career. As to MVPs being a QB awards, how many have 4 or more? How many others on the ten QB list have that accomplishment? It may be a QB award but that doesn’t mean it’s common for any QB to have multiple MVP awards
You’re right Paul, but it’s funny how a QB can win four MVP awards with HOF players like receivers Harrison and Wayne, James at RB, Freeney and possibly Mathis on defence, not to mention excellent TEs in Dilger and Clark and offensive linemen in Saturday and Glenn ?
Brees, Brady, Favre and Rodgers didn’t have players like that surrounding them…just shows you how these “MVP” voters can be…
Brian:
You can say you are just stirring the pot, but your arguments have no logical support (I follow this site but not contribute as often). That said, your take on Manning made me have to write in. Manning would have easily made the 100 anniversary team without his Denver years. If given truth serum, I’m fairly confident Belichick would admit Manning was a better QB than Brady. Need proof: without Brady, the New England Patriots are 14-6 (11-5 in 2008, when Brady was hurt in game 1 with the score 0-0, and 3-1 in 2016 when Brady was suspended). The Colts without Manning (and still with the vast majority of the great players you mention above) were 2-14.
Brady is a great QB who has benefitted immensely from playing for Belichick. Manning has made every team he has played for a contender, and in some cases, carried teams to the playoffs that probably had no business being there. Brady simply can’t say that, and never will be able to say that as long as he plays for Belichick and the New England dynasty This is not to say that Brady doesn’t make his teams better. He obviously does. but the drop off from their normal dominance to 14-6 is surprisingly small. Furthermore, the first three New England Super Bowl winning teams were predominate defensive teams, which is noteworthy because there is a stat that predicted with almost 100% accuracy the winner of a Brady v. Manning game. Whichever team had the better ranked defense almost always won. I don’t have the exact numbers, but there was a great stat during the last AFC championship game between them.
Personally, I think the panel got it perfect on the QBs. Brees is a system QB who could never had survived in the 1980s (too small to withstand the beatings QBs took back then). Rodgers is a great QB, but I think his story is not quite done yet, and I’d have a hard time taking someone off the list for him. My only (small) complaint is that Elway was not unanimous. Being born in 1976, I think Elway has been the best QB I ever watched (Manning a close second). His first three Broncos Super Bowl teams were arguably among the worst five teams to ever play in the Super Bowl (along with the 2006 Bears and 2000 Giants). Those teams relied almost exclusively on Elway, who back then used both his arm and legs (and was an even better athlete than Young). As he aged, Elway later adapted his game. With today’s rule changes, I don’t think Elway could have been stopped. Biggest winner I saw and that doesn’t depend on his last two seasons ending with Super Bowls, although that obviously helped.
Regarding Aikman, Rasputin, you are an unrepentant homer. Nothing wrong with that, but come on. I actual agree with you that Aikman might have been the most accurate passer in my lifetime. What he could do today with the protections given QBs would be amazing. But the fact remains that the Cowboys were a running team with a dominate offense line. As a Redskins fan, I remember with brutal clarity that those Dallas teams were at their best when they could score a TD without ever throwing the ball. The brutal efficiency of those teams, and the mentality that they were going to keep running the ball until you proved you could stop it was soul crushing (for opponents and their fans). Aikman is a very worthy HOFer, but like Starr, he just didn’t do enough to merit being included on this list. Not to say he didn’t have the talent. He just never had the opportunity to show it. He had more than 20 TD passes once in his career–including when that became fairly routine by the mid to late 1990s. He also never led the league in yards or TDs, and led the league in completion percentage once. Great QB, but not top 10 of all time. He wasn’t “along for the ride,” but he also didn’t carry those teams.
No, you’re completely wrong about me, Justin, and your ad hominem swipe at me was lazy. By your logic it’d be easy for me to say that as an admitted Redskins fan you’re hopelessly biased against the Cowboys and dismiss your commentary. Instead, I’ll just reiterate what I already said and that you (apparently unwittingly) reinforced, that these lists are usually about volume stats and longevity. That’s fine if that’s your criteria of preference. All I said is that it’s possible to have a different set of criteria. I’m fair and objective about these things. If my Cowboy fandom comes into play sometimes it’s because I’ve seen far more games by these Cowboys than you or most of the voters have, and am better informed on them than you and most other voters, Your characterization is misleading. While it’s true Dallas didn’t pass as much as other teams, they typically passed early to put themselves into scoring position, giving Emmitt Smith short TD runs at the goal line, then after having passed to build their lead they leaned on the running attack more to close out games late.
I watched Aikman routinely outduel guys like Brett Favre (especially Favre), Young, Marino, etc. over the years, and not just because his team was better. In those games Aikman himself looked better. His form was more classically prototypical. His spirals looked better. His decision-making was better. He was more accurate. He’d make amazing, perfect throws into small windows. So it’d be hard for me to rank him below their class when I know he wasn’t. As for “carry(ing)” the team, Emmitt’s year was 1993 but Aikman’s was 1992. He posted one of the greatest postseasons statistically and in reality in NFL history, with only Montana’s 1989 and Drew Brees’ 2009 campaigns matching it. You can make a stats-based argument for Aikman if you’re willing to look deeper than the quick glance arm chair stuff, and I’ve done so on this site and elsewhere over the years. Wasn’t planning on doing it on this page since it’s off topic, but if you really want to get into it we can.
what surprises could we get on thursday with the finalists
just curious mr wolf which safeties are more deserving
Thanks for getting back on the site, Justin…
Stirring the pot, being argumentive or not, Manning just wasn’t the winner that he should have been until getting his second ring with the Broncos. Yes, he didn’t have the defences that Brady had early on, but Brady was more CLUTCH…
In 2009/10, Manning didn’t have to worry about Brady but threw the pick six, that lost the SB to Brees and New Orleans…
In 13/14, the Broncos got by Brady and NE, but we’re SHUT DOWN by the Seahawks. Despite being MVP that year, Manning had skittish feet the entire game.
He finally won it again in 2015/16, but that’s because Cam Newton did his best Jeff George imitation and fumbled the game away, with Ware and Von Miller, playing Meet At the QB.
We just agree to disagree…
Rasputin and Paul…I hope you guys read my comments about Cliff Harris on the Talkoffame/Maven site…you guys may not agree but I wanted to express my point of view.
thats why i brought up the most deserving safteys part brian
I like a fired up crowd…
To answer your question Robert, I would put these safeties in the Hall over Cliff Harris…
Dillon
Meador
Green of Dallas, his teammate
Grayson
Logan
Shell
Cromwell
Tatum
Anderson
Scott
Cherry
Robinson
Butler
Sharper
Woodson
Harrison
Thompson
Smith
Hopkins
That’s about enough
i agree 100% Brian id put in shell or dillon over harris this time
LOL, while I disagree with Brian’s assessment of Harris and think he’s the greatest safety in Cowboys history and the best free safety of the 1970s (a sentiment shared by guys like HoFer Larry Wilson along obviously with the HoF voters of the time who picked the All Decade team), I did post on ToF to agree that Howley is even more deserving and, of course, has been waiting even longer.
Look guys, I am an old Cowboy fan myself and appreciate Harris and his contributions to the Dallas SB wins, though he disappeared like Houdini against the Steelers…I just felt he was overrated.
I will be the first to congratulate him and his family if he is elected.
I appreciate these great Cowboy safeties as well…
Cornell Gree…who also played corner
Charlie Waters…
Michael Downs… a big play guy
Thomas Everett… a key Jimmy Johnson trade from Pittsburgh
James Washington…
Darren Woodson…Cowboys best ever safety
Fred Marion…
Roy Williams…the best hitter since Rodney Harrison
Cornell Green
darren woodson was a beast
Sorry Brian, but I also have to strongly disagree with your bizarre take on Manning. He could’ve retired as a Colt following his neck surgery and been a 100% lock for this 100 year team. His place in history as one of the most iconic players, not just QBs, was already assured a long time ago, Manning’s career in Denver was just the icing on the cake, reclaiming the single season passing TD record and breaking Brees’ season yardage record.
Four Super Bowls with four different head coaches. Had he been with Belichick in New England he’d be regarded as the greatest player ever imo.
Peyton simply made everyone around him better, including the likes of Harrison, Wayne and Clark. He even turned Brandon Stokley into a 1,000 yard receiver.
As Justin pointed out the Colts were the worst team in the NFL without Manning, and there’s a reason why they built a statue of him outside Lucas Oil.
I concur with boknows 100% I guess Brian is our skip Bayless
Haha…I am glad you guys love Peyton more than I do.
I will take Luckman or Layne any day of the week.
If my crazy opinions bring everybody back from the past on this site, I am all for it…
As to Cliff Harris, any player with four 1st team all pro selections and first team all decade, is far from overrated and is certainly deserving of Hall and consideration of election, other seniors may be more deserving but Harris is worthy and if elected would be very acceptable PFHOFer
Luckman interestes me brian
That’s probably why Brees didn’t make the list.
Too many modern QBs with Manning, Brady and Favre. Good mixture of throwers and winners, but I will take winners over stats.
You’re a Steelers fan Robert. Do you put in Shell, Polamalu and Ward this year ?
What about Fanaca???
Brady and Manning “push” Brees off, their success and stats makes Brees’ less historical
You’re right Paul…Damn, could you imagine at least three of four Steelers getting in ?
I am predicting at least two
Trying to get Clark Judge to let me know about when the final 15 BRP choices are announced, but he may not know yet. I am thinking by Jan 11th ?
brian darren sharper will never get in for obvious reasons
I wonder if the reason the BRP meeting (and announcement) has not be set is because it may depend on when BillB is available- when his season ends??
Paul I am confident we will get the BRP results between Jan 11th and the 16th (Thurs)
Robert, if they can put in Lewis…Sharper and Tyrer have a chance. What Steelers of the four would you elect ?
glad you asked brian id put in shell and polamalu alothough i favor shell over polamalu i think poss faneca
Let’s not compare Sharper and Tyrer to Lewis, and there is no way either ever get elected
Thank you paul Btw will you be posting an article on thurs about the 15 finalists
Just my take… The manning conversation about not being on this is ludicrous. It would be like Barry Sanders not being on the RB list and D. Butkus not being on the LB list. they might not have won as much as some of the other great players but Manning was transcendent.
As someone who has Seen Harold Jackson’s career as well as Branch, Pearson and Carmichael, they were all very good, none of them great. I rank Branch slightly higher than the others but no discernible difference between the other three. For those who are younger, here is a comp:
I would say right now at the WR position none of those guys are the equivalent to a Michael Thomas, Julio Jones or Deandre Hopkins.
Cliff Branch would be like a Steve Smith level player. Drew Pearson would be like a T. Y Hilton. Harold Carmichael would be Michael Evans and Harold Jackson would be like Amari Cooper. If you think those type of players are all HOF Caliber… great, if not I can see that side as well.
I think the 70s WRs chances for election over the years has been the poor decade it was for WRs in a run dominated decade (WR led the league in receptions 2x), their numbers pale compared to those WRs that followed in 80s and beyond, and as has been pointed out no one WR dominated the season receiving stats and awards. Post season performances drove the all decade team selections which is odd compared to other all decade teams. Not sure that beyond Branch and Pearson, no other WR from that era is ever considered for the Hall, unfortunately
I would agree with you Paul except Harold Carmichael is being considered right now, right, wrong or indifferent.
Oops missed on Charmichael and he deserves consideration, just not so sure if not elected whether he would remain a strong future senior candidate contender
And if I had to guess as to BRP announcement, I would say between Jan 23-24 during quieter media time before SB week, second guess would be Jan 16-17
Talked with clark judge on twitter he told me that early january for the brp
Cool, but vague, so perhaps next week… or not..
I’m thinking next week
When I am out of county LOL (literally true)
ques for the wolfman when i did my research i saw that chuck noll played on the 54-55 browns championships my quest is do you include him in the list of inductees for the 46-55 dynasty
Probably not Robert…
Though Noll played for the Browns, like LB Walt Michaels, he is in the Hall as a Head Coach for Pittsburgh
Remember to that HOF Coach Weeb Ewbank also coached with those great teams from 48 -53 before going to Baltimore, as did Blanton Collier, who should be in the Hall.
That’s why Speedie has waited so long. So many Browns in.
Paul shouldn’t worry… I think the BRP won’t announce the 15 Inductees till after Jan 12th.
Gradishar >nobis
Happy New Year all!!
Thanks Brian but if I read about BRP results while on beach in Caribbean I not going to complain
same to you paul
And you guys who contributed to the Talk of Fame Centennial Class of 2020 finalists selections, great job!!
heres my picks for the talk of fame selections
1.Maxie Baughan
2.Cliff Branch
3.Lavern Dilweg
4.Randy Gradishar
5.Chuck Howley
6.Alex Karras
7.Bob Kuechenberg
8.Duke Slater
9.Mac Speedie
10.Al Wistert
Great list!
thanks paul
Paul, keep your phone ready next week…nuff said
who will the 15 finalists be tomorrow night im pretty sure on 11 not sure on the other 4
Atwater Boselli Hutchinson Faneca EJames Seymour Bruce Lynch Rice Young Willis Barber Thomas Wayne TroyP
Who I Want to be finalists…
Ward
Bruce
Faneca
Hutchinson
Woodson
Butler
Lynch
R Barber
Tasker
James
Young
Watters
Polamalu
Willis
Thomas
Who will be finalists (Predictions)
Bruce
Wayne
Holt
Boselli
Faneca
Hutchinson
Woodson
Butler
Atwater
Polamalu
R Barber
James
Willis
Seymour
Rice
Good list Brian
My list of 15
1. E. James RB
2. T. Polamalu S
3. T. Boselli T
4. A. Faneca G
5. S. Atwater S
6. R. eymour DT/DE
7. J. Lynch
8. P. Willis LB
9. S. Hutchinson G
10. I. Bruce WR
11. T. Holt WR
12. R. Barber CB
13. Z. Thomas LB
14. D. Woodson S
15. R. Wayne WR
There will be at least 7 new names compared to last year. Polamalu will be one of them so I’m most interested in seeing who the other 6 will be.
How many 1st ballot candidates?
How many DBs?
Atwater, Lynch, Polamalu seem assured. Can Woodson, Butler and Barber break into the Top 15
How many WRs after Bruce?
Wayne, Holt and Ward in contention.
I think 3 safeties (plus CB Barber) might be the most to expect for the DBs- leaving Butler to wait until next year
After Bruce and Wayne, Ward could be the 3rd WR, I find it harder to expect Holt to advance while Bruce is still on ballot (two WRs from same team/era)
Only one DL/DE (seymour) would seem to be opportunity to add another one, Rice or Young??
With no QB, additional RB and no TE, likely to be heavy on defense, perhaps as many as 9/10
I do think voters think about positions and not having one over represented and also seems like recent push for more defense will again be reflected in results.
In 2020 (and next few years) clearing out S, OL and WRs will be the process, as there are wave of more WRs, plus RBs, TEs and QBs on the way starting 2025+
Spot on paul as usual will you be posting an article online later about the 15 finalists
Though I support Ward and Bruce over the other two receivers, Ward may be the odd man out with Faneca and Polamalu on the ballot as well.
Lynch has another chance to enter the finalists but I doubt there will be four safeties, but who knows ?
I also feel at least two DL will be finalists.
Still rooting for Tasker because eventually, another Special Teams player needs to get in.
List of future 1st year eligibles (* first ballot election??, ? retirement possible before 2020 season):
2021: Peyton Manning*, Charles Woodson*, Calvin Johnson, Jared Allen.
2022: Demarcus Ware*, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Tony Romo
2023: Joe Thomas*, Dwight Freeney*, Darrelle Revis*, James Harrison
2024: Julius Peppers*, Rod Gronkowski*
2025: Eli Manning? Jason Witten? Antonio Gates? Marshawn Lynch?
Yes Robert I will be creating a new topic thread on the finalists (both BRP and modern) after the announcement tonight, look for it to appear here next few days.
Paul, I’d add Adam Vinatieri, Larry Fitzgerald, Philip Rivers and Frank Gore to the 2025 possibles and move Gates to 2024 as he hasn’t played this season.
There are a few others that could be added as potential semi finalists/finalists down the road. I’m thinking Devin Hester, Steven Jackson, Kevin Williams, Robert Mathis, Shane Lechler, Vince Wilfork etc.
Ok thanks Paul
thanks for corrections, boknows34, and I usually don’t add a player to a year until they retire and so far from my list and yours we have no firm announcements and several may attempt to play in 2020, but will add yours to list for future reference
I am also very interested to see who makes the jump to the finalists this year because doing so this year without coaches and with multiple unelected players moving to the senior pool is probably a must if that player is going to be elected any time soon given the next couple years of stacked first time eligible players.
My predictions:
8 returnees: Atwater, Boselli, Bruce, Faneca, Hutchinson, James, Lynch, Seymour
3 first time eligible: Polamalu, Wayne, Willis
4 first time finalists: Barber, Holt, Thomas, Young
Toughest to leave out are Mills (personal favorite) and Woodson
Worth comparing the top 4 WRs as I think people have forgotten how good Torry Holt.
WR 1: 7 PB / 1 AP / 4x led the league in either catches, yards, or TDs
WR 2: 6 PB / 1 AP / 1x led the league
WR 3: 4 PB / 0 AP / 1x led the league
WR 4: 4 PB / 0 AP / 0x led the league
WR 1 is Torry Holt. He also was a second team all decade selection and the others were not (although I guess Wayne might have an outside chance at 2010s team, but that seems unlikely). Counting stats are not Holt’s strong suit because he had a relatively short career, but he still had 920 / 13,382 / 74 TDs with an average yards per reception of 14.5. Also people tend to forget that he played over twice as long with Bulger as his QB (7 years) than Warner (3 years). Finally, Pro Football Reference’s new HOF index places Holt (94.64) third among non-HOF WRs behind Fitzgerald (99.24) and Wayne (94.73).
Speaking of Wayne, he is WR 2. Honestly I underestimated his career. It is nearly identical to Holt’s except that he played longer and thus has higher counting stats (1070 / 14,345 / 82) but led the league much less (only once). Also, whereas Wayne was clearly the “number two” receiver to Harrison, it is a lot less clear that Holt was “number two” to Bruce. In fact, Holt has better per season stats than Bruce. Also Wayne’s yards per reception is a full yard less than Holt (14.5 vs. 13.4), but this is somewhat mitigated because Wayne played longer and therefore had more “older” seasons. In short, I don’t see how one can support Wayne and not also support Holt.
Speaking of Bruce, he is WR 3. HOF Index 90.14. The problem (if you want to call it a problem) with Bruce is that he was severely underappreciated prior to 1999. In particular, in 1995, when he was awesome on a terrible Rams team. Counting stats are great because he played much longer than Holt (11 vs. 16) AND importantly, he has an awesome 14.9 yards per reception. But, again, he only led the league once (overlapped more with Rice) and only led his own team in WR approximate value 3 times. Holt led the Rams 9 times. That said, I understand supporting Bruce over Holt depending on what one values (longevity over peak). That said, the difference between the two is minor, and I think it actually weighs in favor of Holt.
WR 4 is obviously Ward. Counting stats are ok (actually low compared to Holt if you take into account he played 3 more seasons), except TDs where Ward is pretty impressive: 1000 / 12,083 / 85 TDs. 12.1 yards per reception is VERY low. For comparison’s sake, Art Monk was regularly criticized for having a low yards per reception when he was routinely up for induction, but Monk’s 13.5 is significantly higher than Ward’s (actually higher than Wayne too). I understand the difference in era argument, but I would argue that the 1980s/90s Redskins have a lot in common with the 1990/00s Steelers. Ward should get credit was a blocker (as did Monk), but even then, his numbers would be low for a HOFer. He played three more years than Holt but gained 1,300 less yards. His SB MVP is also less helpful than you would think because his numbers were only ok: 5 receptions for 123 yards and 1 TD. As comparison’s sake, look at how his numbers compare to three good but not MVP worthy Redskins players who also played on run-heavy Super Bowl teams: 1987 Ricky Sanders: 9/193/2, 1991 Gary Clark 7/114/1, 1991 Monk 7/113/0. I’m just saying that Ward was good in the game, but it wasn’t like he was transcendent. Also his “big” play was a WR thrown trick play when you would expect Ward to be open.
In sum, Ward was a tough player on a good set of Steeler teams. I think he falls short of the HOF because I think so many of his non-HOF contemporaries were better: Wayne, Holt, Bruce, S. Smith, A. Johnson, C. Johnson, Bolden, etc.
Justin
I think all of Bruce, Holt, Wayne and Ward will get in eventually and likely in that order. The likes of C.Johnson, A.Johnson, S.Smith and Boldin does complicate matters but there’s enough years left in eligibility to see all of them elected down the road, (some with a much longer path than others).
We can also say the same with the six DBs, starting with Polamalu, Atwater, Lynch, followed by Barber, D.Woodson and Butler. Again, we’ll have C.Woodson and Revis marching in but eventually we’ll see all 8 of those DBs elected before their modern eligibility expires.
There will be another 5 classes and 25 HOFers before 2025, when some currently active players will be first time eligible.
Peyton Manning and Edgerrin James and Rob Gronkowski will be the only QB, RB and TE elected among those 25 so expect plenty of WRs and DBs, and perhaps 4 OL with Joe Thomas to the incumbent trio of Faneca, Hutchinson and Boselli.
Finalists
1.Steve Atwater
2.Tony Boselli
3.Issac Bruce
4.Leroy Butler
5.Alan Faneca
6.Torry Holt
7.Steve Hutchinson
8.Edgerrin James
9.John Lynch
10.Sam Mills
11.Troy Polamalu
12.Richard Seymour
13.Zach Thomas
14.Reggie Wayne
15.Bryant Young
Looks like I got 12/15 missing out on Mills, Butler and Holt but have no problem with those three, surprised misses are Barber and Willis
Looks like I got 12/15 missing out on Mills, Butler and Holt but have no problem with those three, surprised misses are Barber and Willis
i got 13/15 Missing out on Holt and Mills
c orrection i got 12/15 missed out on butler mills holt
I had Rice over Mills for my 15th
as did i paul
Damn, no Woodson…Lynch got back in.
I knew Ward wouldn’t make it with two other teammates
Happy for Mills, Thomas and Young
Thought Tasker and Watters would make it
13 of 15. Had Willis and Barber over Butler and Mills.
That said, I am absolutely ecstatic that Mills made it. Such an under-appreciated player. I just hope the electors remember to take into account his three years in the USFL when the NFL was too “short” sighted to sign him (pun intended). Mills was an absolute monster in his three seasons with the Stars. He also had to await two additional seasons to get his chance when he was cut by NFL teams in training camp. Add three (or five) years to his career, and he would have been in the HOF a long time ago. So, so happy for Sam Mills’ family. Keep Pounding
My picks
Faneca
James
Lynch
Butler
Bruce
Predictions
Atwater
Faneca
James
Lynch
Boselli
Brian: There is almost no chance that Polamalu doesn’t make it. Hard to believe he will not walk in to take his place next to Reed. My predictions:
Polamalu
Hutchinson
James
Seymour
Boselli
My picks would be: Polamalu, Holt, Mills, Boselli, Thomas
So we have some order with the positions.
Bruce, Holt and Wayne at WR. Ward misses out and could do so again next year with Calvin Johnson.
As you were at OL. Let’s hope they don’t cancel each other out again.
Seymour and Bryant at DL. Jared Allen and Demarcus Ware will be on the ballot soon.
Thomas and Mills long overdue at LB. Willis will have to wait his turn.
Butler’s breakthrough at DB ahead of D.Woodson and Ronde Barber.
My early prediction is the Class will be balanced between 3 offense and 2 defense. Either 2 OL, 2 DB and one skill position (Bruce or James) OR 1 OL, Bruce, James and 2 DB (Polamalu and Atwater)
Atwater
Polamalu
Faneca
Boselli
James/Bruce
Or
Atwater
Polamalu,
James
Bruce
Faneca/Boselli
voters are giving themselves a real challenge to sort out the four safeties, TroyP is getting in and I am hoping for Atwater but there is a real risk voters split votes between Lynch, Atwater and Butler. This is the year I think the OL backlog is opened with one if not two getting elected.
I get what you’re saying Justin, but from the whispers I am getting, Polamalu isn’t a LOCK
This is a great chance for Lynch because next year will be 1st ballot city
With Butler, this could be a great class for the Packers
Lynch has been going backwards in recent HOF voting
the only whispers i hear is from brians head
Thinking only Manning and Woodson will be first ballot elected in 2021
this could be a year to clear the backlog i see 4 open spots
I think Polamalu is the only no-brainer for the modern era. He’s the only slam dunk when it comes to predicting the committee. Most of them belong. In my opinion, Bryant Young is not a Hall of Famer, and seeing Sam Mills’ name threw me off guard
New topic is posted, see for first annual Zoneblitz PFHOF prediction contest!!
Robert I think the carryover candidates from the 2019 election final ten have an advantage
I’ve never thought of Bryant Young as a Hall of Famer until he was mentioned on Talk of Fame one time. When I was a kid, I thought he was a very nice player at his position. I never thought Canton. I know some players were better than I remember them being, but even looking at the profiles, I’m not overwhelmed.
Polamalu is a slam dunk. Everybody else is open.
Great new thread Paul, Andy and Tony…
Will be moving new comments, observations and provocations to the new thread.
Thanks, this thread has been great and informative.
Thanks everyone for there contributions on this thread, wow over 600 posts since November-great job!
Hope everyone will give a prediction on the new thread as well as continued discussion and debates before we get the announcements. Remember those predictions are due by next Monday night (Jan 6th).
I will be out of country next week, but will have internet access on the beach, so may check in infrequently-especially if BRP results are released!!
Exciting to finally get to the endgame of this annual process, and for many of us the opportunity to see ten seniors elected-something we have advocated for over the years-is extra special. So much so that when announced frankly I am not going to be disappointed in any of the ten since all twenty are deserving and this is such a big step forward in addressing the serious deep backlog of seniors that in my view it is a win for all of them. For those finalist not elected, and others who were not selected as finalists, clearly ten from the list helps them all advance in future elections, same can be said for the coaches and contributors.
I’m not sure it’s a win for guys in their 80s who were widely thought to be among the most deserving 1-3 candidates but didn’t even make the top 20 of this list, but have a good trip.
I agree Rasputin, except getting ten elected opens up future slots for other deserving seniors, and as frustrating as it is, voters have made it clear the age and health are not factors they consider, not that I agree with that approach but it exists.
I know you are referring to Howley (not sure of the other 80s guys), and you know I have been a long supporter of his election, but came to realization months ago that the BRP progress has not going to favor him. So I am left dismissing the whole BRP and fact 10 seniors will be elected (after pushing for years to get more seniors elected) or taking view that it is a major step in getting ten long ignored and deserving seniors, including likely last chance for pre 1950 candidates. I have chosen to take the latter view, while hoping and praying Howley is elected soon before his passing.
I certainly respect your view on this, and hope you will do me the same favor.
Bill Cowher was told he would be inducted into the Hall of Fame on CBS’ pregame a few minutes ago