First off an apology to those who are regular readers and contributors to our Hall of Fame content. This last year-and-change has been busy and largely great, but brutal from the perspective of spending time on projects that aren’t A) directly involved with the day-job and B) at least semi-contributing to bank accounts. Thus, as some have noted in comments, we’ve fallen behind in terms of keeping up with some of our content. We have not shut down and we are making some plans that, hopefully, allow for more regular and timely posting. But real-life will, at times, kick in, trumping the fun stuff that we’d rather spend more time on.
Now, with that said, regular readers, presumably, are celebrating this week, as Johnny Robinson, one of the most frequently cited Hall of Fame snubs ever mentioned here, has finally made it in to the Hall. He’ll be 81 this year and he has waited way too long for this honor. Luckily he’s had plenty of accolades to celebrate over the years while he waited, including an interception in Super Bowl IV against my hometown Vikings.
It was a good year for the Chiefs. The team discovered it has a franchise QB in Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs finished just an offsides penalty away from a Super Bowl berth. And, along with Robinson, long-time TE Tony Gonzalez made the cut as well.
Gonzalez was one of three first-ballot enshrinees this year. Ravens safety Ed Reed, who makes it a double-dip for the oft-ignored safety position, and CB Champ Bailey join Gonzalez from the list of candidates who made the cut in year one. Ty Law, part of the early years of the Patriots’ dynasty, gives the defensive backfield four of the eight slots in this 2019 class. Offensive lineman Kevin Mawae rounds out the modern-era slate.
Broncos Owner Pat Bowlen and contributor Gil Brandt — who frankly also waited way too long to get the call and who should have been in before owner Jerry Jones — also received the call to the Hall.
I hope to post more on these picks in the weeks ahead, but I do think this is a pretty solid class. Brandt and Robinson are especially strong candidates, in my eyes, from the non-modern-era slate. I might have preferred Alan Faneca over Mawae or a third safety or offensive skill player over Law, but that’s mostly nitpicking. It’s good to see some safeties get noticed and to see a couple long-time oversights corrected. Your comments, please.
Hopefully Johnny Robinson opens the door for one of these players Dick Anderson, Jake Scott, Cliff Harris or Donnie Shell.
Or Jimmy Patton, Bobby Dillon, Ed Meador, Deron Cherry, Nolan Cromwell, or Joey Browner, for that matter.
How would you rank the senior safeties?
It’s tough, and I’d say there’s no definite. The only ones I don’t think are Hall of Famers are Dick Anderson and Jake Scott. The others either should be in or have a solid case.
I’m not sure if Meador and Dillon are the best on that list, but I think their inductions are more urgent than the others.
It’s a great class and other news about how far Atwater progressed this year plus possibilities for an extra special extended class of 17 for leagues 100th anniversary in September 2020, set stage for some real exciting Hall elections and events over the next 18 months
Just out of curiosity corey what hurts anderson and scott in your op
Dick Anderson has some promising credentials, but didn’t do it long enough. He didn’t have enough Pro Bowls or enough All Pros.
Jake Scott I suppose would be better, but he needs to wait. I’ve always thought of Scott and Anderson cancelling the other out. If you combined the two careers together, you’d probably have a Hall of Famer, but solo wise, they are not Hall of Famers and are towards the bottom in the safety logjam.
I cannot look at Scott, much less Anderson, and say that person should get in before Meador, Dillon, Cherry, Browner or Patton. I just can’t.
This is how I would rank Eligible Safties not in the Hall
1. Steve Atwater
2. John Lynch
3. Darren Woodson
4. Eddie Meador
5. Deron Cherry
6. Rhonde Barber
7. Donnie Shell
8. Bobby Dillon
Bill, Ronde Barber is a CB, not a safety.
Robert, I rank Anderson (3/3/70s) and Scott (4/5/none, short career) behind the other folks because of short career or honors. YMMV.
I agree that Barber was a corner he was ranked as my 6th Corner that needs to go in right behind Lester Hayes. My no. 6 safety is Darren Sharper and he is never getting in.
My updated seniors list
1.Chuck Howley
2.Al Wistert
3.Maxie Baughan
4.Randy Gradishar
5.Walt Sweeney
6.Mac Speedie
7.Ken Anderson
8. Ken Anderson
9. Ed Budde
10.L.C. Greenwood
11. Drew Pearson
12. Del Shofner
13. Bob Kuechenberg
14. Cliff Harris
15. Cliff Branch
16. Winston Hill
17. Jim Tyrer
18. Otis Taylor
19. Alex Karras
20. Dick Schafrath
21. Donnie Shell
22. Ken Gray
23.Dick Barwegen
24. Duane Putnam
25. Mike Kenn
Bill, I don’t see Cherry as much of a priority. A good ball hawk but didn’t bring the wood like Jake Scott. Never won anything. I think he went to one playoff game under John Maclovic who I know a little bit about as a Longhorn fan.
I’ll spare y’all the whole Scott argument again. :) I don’t think Anderson and Scott cancel each other out just like I don’t think Mark Duper and Mark Clayton do. Someone needs to give these players a good study and quit being lazy.
Also I don’t see 3/5 Donnie Shell with his 4 SB’s that low. I think he’s more deserving at this point than Woodson and I regard him highly.
Tony p i would be willing to make any tweaks to my list if you see any
Robert: great list but I have a few suggestions, what about Eddie Meador and Jimmy Patton-I have them in my top ten? Plus Duke Slater and Lavvie Dilweg are two others worth consideration
I have Duke Slater pretty high. List looks pretty good Robert. Can’t have Ken Anderson on there twice. lol Well you can,lol I know some of y’all want him in really bad. We did this list a while back. I’ll see if I can retrieve. All of our lists will be numbered pretty different. :)
updated list removed the second anderson thanks for the heads up tony
1.Chuck Howley
2.Al Wistert
3.Duke Slater
4.Maxie Baughan
5.Lavern Dilweg
6.Randy Gradishar
7.Walt Sweeney
8.Mac Speedie
9.Ken Anderson
10.Ed Budde
11.L.C. Greenwood
12.Bobby Dillon
13.Ed Meador
14.Drew Pearson
15.Bob Kuechenberg
16.Cliff Harris
17.Cliff Branch
18.Winston Hill
19.Jim Tyrer
20.Del Shofner
21. Otis Taylor
22.Alex Karras
23. Dick Schafrath
24.Donnie Shell
25.Ken Gray
26.Dick Barwegen
27.Duane Putnam
28. Mike Kenn
About Corey’s remarks, I think their needs to be a tweaking of perspective on players playing 8 or 9 years not being long enough and 10 or 11 is great. It was a diffeent time and injuries took a more devastating toll on players than than say the last 30 years. Also players stayed in college for 4 years. Also while the money was good it wasn’t making players a millionaire for every extra year they hung around. That has to be a small factor although I’ll conceed most player hang on for the love of the game.
Of course, these days we’re seeing more and more potential hall of famers retire in what used to be considered their prime. Patrick Willis, Calvin Johnson, possibly Gronk. So we may see the pendulum swing back towards understanding short careers.
Great list Robert, I could debate over the order of a some or add a few more, but it appears at least for the top 20 that’s a pretty complete list.
IF the Hall does go with a special class of 17 enshrinees for the NFL 100th anniversary events in Canton in September 2020, I would hope the focus would be on the senior candidates and this would be a great start of a list of nominees for the committee to vote on.
I don’t have an issue with considering short careers, but lets also keep in mind that it takes a pretty high quality short career (several all pro selections) to warrant consideration, and even then as was the case for TD and now Boselli, a wait on the ballot of 10+ years is to be expected. Now its possible that Willis, Johnson and Gronk will get in sooner than 10 yr wait but I have no doubt that when looked at against other finalists with longer careers they will still have a wait-none of them are or should get in as 1st ballot.
Off-topic, but as a long-time Chiefs fan, this was definitely a great year to be cheering for the team as the article said. I live in Canada, so naturally I haven’t met more than maybe 5 Chiefs fans in my entire life (outside of the games I have attended). This year, I saw multiple kids wearing Mahomes shirts or jerseys around town and it was pretty neat. Assuming the team continues to be good, I’ll now have to spend the next few years convincing people that I’m not a bandwagon jumper!
As for next year’s vote, I like the chances of Boselli and Atwater as returning finalists. I originally didn’t think Polamalu was deserving as a 1st ballot inductee, but I’ve changed my stance after running his numbers through the analysis I do every year. He came out as the top ranked DB over Atwater by a healthy margin. I am starting to get the sense that Faneca and Hutchinson are splitting votes, so I’m not ready to call either guy a favourite next year. I would love a scenario though where they both got inducted. James getting to the final 10 bodes well for next year. He’s now clearly at the head of the skill position players, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he also got inducted next year.
With the other first-time eligible players, I like Willis’ chances at getting to the finalist round right away but don’t see him as a 1st-ballot inductee. After running Lance Briggs’ numbers against other linebackers, he falls more in the Clay Matthews/Sam Mills range than the Zach Thomas/Patrick Willis range, so I think his ceiling next year is the semifinalist list (if that, to be honest). I haven’t looked into Reggie Wayne close enough yet you get a good sense on his chances. My gut tells me that he’s going to be in the top 5 or 6 eligible receivers, so like Briggs he’s probably on the fence in terms of making the semifinalist list or just missing it.
John Abraham and Justin Smith are the only other first-time eligible players that I think have an outside chance of eventual induction. Both guys should at least get onto the preliminary list, but I don’t think either guy has much of a chance in the modern era pool.
Good assessment there BSLO
And although I understand the vote splitting, and agree it is likely a huge factor, part of me is still amazed that a 6(2)/9/SB/All Decade player in Fanaca is still not in-even though I know the reasons it is still remarkable….
Agree good assesment BLSO. Also agree on Faneca.
It occured to me, man how can anyone not like those awesome red Chief’s uniforms and their helmet.? IMO one of the best in football forever. Glad they never changed. They automatically get credit for that over many other Teams. lol Uniforms matter!!
I remember when they changed the Dolphin on Miami’s helmet to look more menacing. I don’t think they’ve ever recovered.
Paul, how’s that for some hard hitting analysis? :)
There are a couple of helmets that would have been much better to never been changed. The Dolphins are one. The Broncos and Patriots are two others I can think of. I might be in the minority, but I also loved the old creamsicle buccaneers uniforms.
P.S. Faneca and Hutchinson hopefully both get in next year.
Paul sums up a lot of my thoughts, especially on short careers and Dick Anderson.
The good news is Anderson was a Defensive Player of the Year and All Decade. Those are two big boxes to check off.
However, he was a Pro Bowler three times, and a First Team All Pro only twice. That, and I’ve mentioned on here in the past that those selected to the All Decade Teams weren’t always the correct choices.
Dick Anderson has a long wait in terms of just senior safeties, much less all seniors in the entire pool, if you ask me.
I was with you Bill up to the Bucs. lol Didn’t they get voted the worst uniform of all-time on NFL Network? You know they have a list for everything. lol Bills, Giants and the Jets all went back to the old ones after years with new. I liked Denver’s old better and while I really liked the Patriots old I can’t ever imagine them going back now with new being at iconic status.
Maybe instead of looking at years we should look at number of games? 2/5 Jake Scott only missed two games in a 9 career and started everyone of the 126 games he played in . HOFer Lynn Swann 1/3 started 96 of the 116 games he played in over his 9 year career. Both were SB MVP’s and one IMO, Scott should of been 1st team all 70’s decade. :) One went to 3 SB’s the other 4 SB’s.
I will always be convinced Swann was one of the worst choices, and is only enshrined for playing on a dynasty. The fact that Swann is in while Cliff Branch and Harold Jackson are not indicate the injustices and validate the existence of the Senior Committee in the first place.
In his career, Scott was 2/5, with 49 interceptions. I don’t have enough knowledge at this point to formulate an educated opinion on whether he should have been All Decade, because when researching All Decade errors, safety was t a concentration of mine.
2/5 with 49 interceptions is good, but let’s compare.
Eddie Meador – 2/6, 1960s All Decade. Is Scott better than Meador? Meador made one more Pro Bowl, and I conclude he did enough in the 1960s to warrant All Decade. Age difference also shows Meador’s inductions is more needed at this point in time.
Deron Cherry – 3/6, 1986 AFC Defensive Player of the Year, 1980s All Decade Team. 50 interceptions.
Is Scott better than Cherry? Cherry has the edge on Pro Bowls, All Pros, interceptions and All Decade.
Joey Browner – 3/6 1980s All Decade, 37 interceptions.
Is Scott better than Browner? Browner was a strong safety, and maybe that’s why he has fewer interceptions.
Was Browner’s All Decade justified? His final Pro Bowl and All Pro season was in 1990, meaning he was 2/5, the exact profiles of Jake Scott, during his All Decade of the 1980s.
Donnie Shell – 3/5, 51 interceptions
Is Scott better than Shell? 51 interceptions for a strong safety seems high. I’ve gradually warmed up to the idea of Shell through the years, though when I get hung up on absences from Canton, Shell’s name does not come to mind.
Jimmy Patton – 5/5, 52 interceptions, led the NFL in interceptions in 1958.
Is Scott better than Patton? The Pro Bowls are equal, but Patton had more All Pros and interceptions. I don’t think Patton’s fatal accident has done him favors for his induction. There’s no question in my mind that he deserves a bust, but he seemingly had been forgotten. At least, that is my perception.
Bobby Dillon – 4/4, 52 interceptions
Is Scott better than Dillon? 4/4. There’s one fewer Pro Bowl, but more All Pros and interceptions. If you want to discuss short careers, Dillon played his last career game at age 29. The fact that he had the career he had with only one eye and that he is almost 90, in addition to his aforementioned credentials, makes him Top 10 on my Senior list.
Those are six safeties right there who are in the pool. Meador, Dillon and Patton are of the utmost importance, in my opinion. Browner, Shell and Cherry also have their talking points compared to Jake Scott, let alone Dick Anderson.
This position has seen Easley and Robinson, two very deserving candidates, get into Canton, and there’s still a logjam at this position alone that if you selected only safeties, it would take years to get rid of.
Throw every other position in this pool into the mix, with more deserving and older candidates, and that’s why I’m not enthusiastic about either one of the Dolphins safeties.
We need to see the Butlers, the Kramers, the Robinson’s of the world, and not the poignant Les Richter and Dick Stanfel types. Unfortunately, if Al Wistert, Jimmy Patton, Joe Fortunato, Bobby Boyd and/or Duane Putnam ever get their moment, they won’t be here.
Good insights, Corey.
I’d also add Harold Carmichael and Drew Pearson to Jackson and Branch as WRs from the 70s who are HoF deserving — and better choices than Swann.
Thanks.
That 1970s All Decade wide receiver team I have questioned before. How do you lead the NFL in receptions, yards and touchdowns (Jackson) and not get selected? It is my belief Branch and Jackson are the two most pressing cas s from that era.
Also, how was Harold Carmichael not All Pro in 1973? He led the league in receptions and yards.
I’d have Branch and Jackson interchangeable at No. 1 in terms of the best receiver from the decade not enshrined, then Pearson, then Carmichael. I personally feel Jackson and Branch are the biggest snubs and would both be excellent choices by the committee.
All of them, however, take a backseat to Howton and Shofner in terms of urgency for enshrinement, in my view.
All I know is Ken Houston, Cliff Harris, Jake Scott and Dick Anderson were the best Safeties the 1970’s had to offer. I went into before how Georgia HC Vince Dooley said Scott was the best football player he ever coached after he had Herschel Walker. Scott’s rebel streak led him to the CFL after college where he starred. Than he excelled in the NFL. Apparently at the end when he quit he still had a couple good years left.
I wasn’t saying he should go above any other Safeties. I just want to know he gets a fair accounting because he was IMO the most important Miami defensive player when they had one of the greatest 5 year runs of winning in NFL history. IMO he was snubbed off the All Decade Team because he was on the out’s with Don Shula who wielded great power in the NFL by the end of the 70’s. Of course it’s speculation. :)
I forgot about Harris.
3/6, 29 interceptions and All Decade vs. 2/5, 49 interceptions, no All Decade for Scott.
Does anyone know why Harris had so few interceptions?
Yes Scott is better than Cherry. The AFC as a whole in the 1980’s was pretty weak.
Tony, you said: “Yes Scott is better than Cherry.”
Could you provide details? Scott is 4/5/none, played 9 years. Cherry is 3/6/80s, played 11 years. Generously speaking, that seems comparable is perhaps leaning slightly in Cherry’s favor. Am thinking this is a film study specifics thing, perhaps?
Thanks.
Harris played the run and was a “head hunter”, he was aggressive against the run and aimed to separate the WR from the ball.
” Pro Football Hall of Fame safety Larry Wilson said of Harris, “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.”
I think Scott and Harris were very similar. Harris a little better against the run. Scott was a little more ball hawk. Could be a little bias coming from an NFC Divisional foe?
I’ll get back to you Bachs. lol
I will say I do favor a player like Scott who proved himself in big games. It’s not Cherry’s fault he played for mostly mediocre Teams and in only one playoff game in his prime. It is what it is though.
I’ve always had the impression Cherry was a great flashy interceptor of the ball but fairly pedestrian at the rest of his game. I’m also of the thought it was harder to be Pro Bowler in the AFC in the 70’s than the 80’s. I’ll research. :)
The whole AFC except for a few outstanding QB’s, WR’s looked pretty mediocre to me compared to the caliber of talent in the NFC with the 49ers, Bears, Giants, Redskins Cowboys, Eagles etc … Cherry did get three All- Pros none in succession which makes me think they couldn’t ignore the Ints he was racking up.
It could turn out in a film study Cherry was the greatest thing since sliced bread but he didn’t get too much exposure where I could actually see him so I’m a doubter at this point. I’m trying to think of another HOFer on a Team that sucked like his did. Help me out? Oh ya, Floyd Little! lol
The Super Bowl is important, but so are all of the other games, which is why there’s a spot for Cherry in Canton.
Jake Scott is more of a Hall of Famer than Julian Edelman is, though, but I guess Super Bowls do matter, hence Swann’s induction.
Still, if they mattered, where’s Chuck Howley?
Les Richter has an 8/7 profile so what’s the issue might I ask corey
I have Les Richter at 2/8/none.
The issue Corey is bringing up is the fact that guys (deserving as he was) like Richter are dead. Meanwhile, guys who are elderly, deserving, and still alive like Bobby Dillon, Chuck Howley, Billy Howton, and Jim Ray Smith wait. And wait. And wait. Meanwhile, we’ve recently lost deserving guys like Al Wistert, Bobby Boyd, Joe Fortunato, and Duane Putnam. It’s a fair point.
Edelman and Scott in the same sentence. lol Edelman’s never made a Pro Bowl. Heck ya he’s more of a HOFer :)
My view of Cherry says nothing of if he should be a HOFer. I just wouldn’t put him in ahead of Jake Scott who I thought was better. I’m probably in the minority on this too but I think age should take priority if all things are fairly equal. I thought Johnny Robinson should of been put in before his teammate Emmitt Thomas.
Julian Edelman no more belongs in the HoF than Deion Branch, who has similar career stats and a SB MVP. Anybody suggesting otherwise is a moronic twit.
Emmitt Thomas (2/5/none) has no business in the HoF, and certainly not a head of Johnny Robinson. His only argument is a fair number of career INTs.
And if we’re talking about putting in the oldest safeties first, Bobby Dillon heads that list easily.
Is Duane Putnam deceased? Maybe not. I read somewhere he was. If not, I apologize for that. If he is still alive, he’s 90.
If the Hall decides to do a special extra class of 17 at the NFL 100th anniversary events in Canton in September there are certainly plenty of seniors to consider especially at safety and LB. Lets hope we get announcement of that event and voting rules/process soon so the debate can get started!
September 2020 is the event
Regarding Edelman, of course he’s not a Hall of Famer. It doesn’t change the fact that some people thought he should be in around the Super Bowl last week.
If there is a special class, how many seniors should there be?
Also, I guess Gosselin is leaving the Dallas Morning News. I’m not sure if that changes things in the committee or not
Turns out that’s a good question re Duane Putnam. He’s listed as “deceased” over at his career page at NFL.com. Wikipedia says he passed away on March 21, 2016, but no death date appears at his carreer page at the PFR website. And the PFRA site, which has an obituary page section,, has no entry about him.
My guess is he’s dead, but I can’t fully confirm it.
Re Rich Gosselin, I think you can continue as the rep for your city regarding the PFHoF even if you’re no longer employed. I think Ron Borges remained on the panel despite some job loss issues.
Here’s who would I have in my updated list of senior rankings.
#1 Chuck Howley
#2 Maxie Baughan
#3 Randy Gradishar
#4 Billy Howton
#5 Del Shofner
#6 Eddie Meador
#7 Walt Sweeney
#8 Jimmy Patton
#9 Bobby DIllon
#10 Al Wistert
#11 Cliff Harris
#12 Mac Speedie
#13 Jim Tyrer
#14 Dick Barwegan
#15 George Kunz
#16 Dick Schafrath
#17 Harold Jackson
#18 Duane Putnam/Jim Ray Smith
#19 Duane Putnam/Jim Ray Smith
#20 Larry Grantham
#21 Cliff Branch
#22 Mike Stratton
#23 Ed Budde
#24 Bobby Boyd
#25 Joe Fortunato
#26 Deron Cherry
#27 Joey Browner
#28 Ken Gray
#29 John Niland
#30 Jim Bakken
#31 Isiah Robertson
#32 Otis Taylor
A few things
#1 This was not an easy list to make, and I’m not completely confident in this list. I’ve made many changes on this list alone in adding and ranking some players higher and lower.
#2 This shows just how deep the senior pool still is based on my list alone. I haven’t even named everybody or close to everybody. You could have a large senior group for the Class of 2020, select candidates based off of my list alone and it would still take decades to enshrine everybody on it. The voters really missed the boat on some of these players.
#3 How exactly would you rate Duane Putnam vs. Jim Ray Smith for enshrinement? Both had 3/5. Were/are they more deserving than John Niland/Ed Budde? Is 3/5 better than 2/6?
Gosselin still writes for talkiffame so that could keep his place on the committee if he choises to stay on
Y’all know what I going to say. LOL!! At some point, maybe a 100 years from now, Bob Kuechenberg should be in the HOF. :)
Hopefully the further the NFL goes away the run game the more reverence people will have great Offensive lines who dominated the game with the run.
The 70’s Raiders have 3 OL players in the HOF why can’t Miami?
Are there any Steelers OL other than Webster who might get look? T\
Kuechenberg is 1/6, which is not bad, but look at the profiles of Little and Langer, and the others in the pool. There’s nothing about Kuechenberg that separates him from the others.
Corey- Nice list but I did not see L.C. Greenwood, Lester Hayes or Joe Klecko. Take a look at those players and if you get a chance, go beyond just their Pro Bowls and All- Pros.
Lester Hayes I could see, as he was also All Decade, Defensive Player of the Year and led the NFL in interceptions in 1980.
L.C. Greenwood was All Decade, which helps.
Klecko was AFC Defensive Player of the Year and played multiple positions, but I’d have him in outside looking in.
Regarding Greenwood/Hayes, is there anything to suggest their All Decade selections were undeserved?
list of senior candidates:
LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
T Duke Slater CHI
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
CB Lester Hayes OAK 1(5)/5/80s
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
FS Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s
G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s
OL Walt Sweeney SAN 2(4)/9/60s
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
DE L.C.Greenwood PITTS 2/6/70’s
LB Larry Grantham NYJ 5(5)/60s
FB Pat Harder CHI/DET 3(3)/2/MVP/40s
DT Alex Karras DET 4(5)/4 60s
RB Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s
DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
T Joe Jacoby WASH 2(1)/4, 80s
LT Jim Tyrer KC 6/9/60
LB Joe Fortunato CHI 3(3)/5/50s
F Otis Taylor KC 3/3/60s
HB Beattie Feathers CHI 30s
OL George Christenson DET 30s
FB Bill Osmanski CHI 1(1)/3/40s
OG Ed Budde KC 2(2)/7 60s
G Bob Kuechenberg MIA 2/6
LB Mike Curtis BALT 2/4
OL Riley Matheson CLEV 5
OL Dick Schafrath CLEV 4/6
S Donnie Shell PITT 3(1)/5
LB Karl Meckenburg 4/6
DB Everson Walls 3-4
Some here agree with you Corey and some don’t. I won’t beat a dead horse.
http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2019/01/bob-kuechenbergthe-prototype-guard.html
I’ve long suspected that the HOF voters have underrepresented the 1980s in the HOF. Now I have performed the research to confirm. I’d like to share as I think many of the voters need to be educated. Here is a list of the HOFers that played per year from 1950 through 2000, along with the number of NFL (and AFL where appropriate) franchises, the “active” roster spots per team, and the percentage of HOFers per total active roster spots.
1950: 34 HOFers / 13 teams / 33 active roster spots / 7.93% of roster spots are HOFers
1951: 35 / 12 / 33 / 8.84%
1952: 40 / 12 / 33 / 10.10%
1953: 41 / 12 / 33 / 10.35%
1954: 41 / 12 / 33 / 10.35%
1955: 43 / 12 / 33 / 10.86%
1956: 43 / 12 / 33 / 10.86%
1957: 46 / 12 / 35 / 10.95%
1958: 53 / 12 / 35 / 12.62%
1959: 49 / 12 / 36 / 11.34%
1960: 53 / 21 / 38 or 35 / 6.85%
1961: 59 / 22 / 36 or 33 / 7.68%
1962: 62 / 22 / 36 or 33 / 8.07%
1963: 63 / 22 / 37 or 35 / 8.06%
1964: 68 / 22 / 40 or 34 / 8.17%
1965: 68 / 22 / 40 or 38 / 7.87%
1966: 67 / 24 / 40 / 6.98%
1967: 71 / 25 / 40 / 7.10%
1968: 71 / 26 / 40 / 6.83%
1969: 75 / 26 / 40 / 7.21%
1970: 73 / 26 / 40 / 7.02%
1971: 78 / 26 / 40 / 7.50%
1972: 73 / 26 / 40 / 7.02%
1973: 70 / 26 / 40 / 6.73%
1974: 69 / 26 / 47 / 5.65%
1975: 65 / 26 / 43 / 5.81%
1976: 65 / 28 / 43 / 5.40%
1977: 64 / 28 / 43 / 5.32%
1978: 60 / 28 / 45 / 4.76%
1979: 58 / 28 / 45 / 4.60%
1980: 51 / 28 / 45 / 4.05%
1981: 56 / 28 / 45 / 4.44%
1982: 54 / 28 / 45 / 3.94%
1983: 55 / 28 / 45 / 4.37%
1984: 52 / 28 / 49 / 3.79%
1985: 52 / 28 / 45 / 4.13%
1986: 48 / 28 / 45 / 3.81%
1987: 48 / 28 / 45 / 3.81%
1988: 47 / 28 / 45 / 3.73%
1989: 48 / 28 / 45 / 3.81%
1990: 51 / 28 / 45 / 4.05%
1991: 50 / 28 / 46 / 3.88%
1992: 49 / 28 / 46 / 3.80%
1993: 51 / 28 / 46 / 3.96%
1994: 48 / 28 / 46 / 3.73%
1995: 51 / 30 / 46 / 3.70%
1996: 53 / 30 / 46 / 3.84%
1997: 55 / 30 / 46 / 3.99%
1998: 55 / 30 / 46 / 3.99%
1999: 53 / 31 / 46 / 3.72%
2000: 48 / 31 / 46 / 3.37%
These numbers contain a number of interesting observations. First, 1958 is vastly over-represented in the HOF with over 12% of the roster spots filled with a HOFer. The percentage of HOFers goes down in the 1960s (more teams), but the absolute number rise to a peak in 1971 (78 HOFers played that year). Yet, look at the mid to late 1980s: 48, 48, 47, 48 HOFers. Were there really 30 more HOF caliber players playing in 1971 than 86-89? Even though there were more teams and roster spots in the late 1980s. Obviously some of this has to do with the fact that the 1980s have had very few senior candidates nominated, but is the Hall of Fame really doing to nominate 30 players from this time period? If is started this year, it would take at least 15 years to catch-up, but this would mean no one could be nominated from the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s. No Duke Slater. No Alex Karras. No. Chuck Howley. No Drew Pearson.
In short, the Joe Jacobys, Everson Walls, Henry Ellards, and Karl Mecklenburgs of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s have already been inducted–often at the expense of the 1980s players. The reasons why are likely many, but a lot of it has to do with the restrictive voting in the 1990s. Why did Art Monk take 8 tries? Why did Harry Carson take 7 tries? More importantly, why did the class of Elway, Barry Sanders, and Carl Eller not have two more modern candidates. Young and Marino’s class was down three the next year.
As the HOF moves toward an 100th anniversary “celebratory” class, I hope it takes a long look at the 1980s players and does not immediate rush to put in yet more players from earlier eras that are already over represented.
Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts?
I agree that the 80s as a decade are underrepresented and would see Lester Hayes, Craig, Gradishar, Anderson, Klecko, Jacoby to get more consideration, to point of a few on the special 17 members of the class of 2020: Hayes and Craig?. But would still like to see several with 5+ All pros have a higher priority regardless if their decade is already over represented: 1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP; 2. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9; 3. OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s; 4. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s; 5. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s; 6. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s; 7. FS Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s; 8. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s; 9. OL Walt Sweeney SAN 2(4)/9/60s; 10. F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s; 11. WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s; 12. LB Larry Grantham NYJ 5(5)/60s. Plus 13. T Duke Slater CHI, 14. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s and 15. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s.
If the special class of 17 were to include many pre 1980s deserving candidates, it will then open up future annual senior slots for others from 1980s, especially if such a class could really capture pre 1970-perhaps closing out those decades for any needed future selections? If we are still considering pre 1980 senior candidates now almost 40 years since they played, that should give us another decade or perhaps 20 senior candidate nominations to still address the 80s.
Did anyone agree with me that the 80’s AFC was lacking something?
I don’t remember any teams that were really strong on Offense and Defense. I suppose the Raiders were the closest to that description but the QB play was unreliable except for a few stretches. Certainly my Dolphins never fit that bill. I don’t think Denver did either even though they had a clutch QB. Cleveland had pretty balanced years.
Another quick observation: the voters are doing a much better job inducting post-2000 players (as I think we have all noted in the past). The numbers show that there are already as many HOF players who played in 2000 (48) as there were HOFers from 1986-89 (between 47-48), and this is obviously missing a number of players who will be inducted in the years ahead.
Among 1980s players not in Canton, Mecklenburg, Cherry and Browner stand out.
If you want to talk All Decade, Meckkenburg making All Pro four teams in a single decade and not making it raises some eyebrows.
I’ve also been a Craig supporter, too.
I hope it’s not the case, wouldn’t know why it would be but I’m starting to think Drew Pearson may stay on the outside looking in. Very strange how one of the biggest stars of the 1970’s and 1st Team All Decade player has made it all the way through Modern years and now been sitting on the Senior List for 10 plus years, His name has had to be on radar for years. Feels like it’s either going to happen very soon or not at all to me. I know I put Cliff Branch so slightly ahead of him but not having Pearson in feels like it would be more of a shocker.
I don’t know how fair it is but when your Defense gets stomped in three Super Bowls like Mecklenburg’s did it probably has some impact.
Mecklenburg is only one player. The truth is many were on multiple Super Bowl losing teams and still got elected. He has a legitimate case.
Agree.
Mecklenburg 6/4 has a case but from the 1980s, I would put Lester Hayes, Roger Craig, Joe Klecko and even Joe Jacoby 2(1)/4/3xSB in before.
And Justin yes the current committee has really focused on 1st ballot elections of 2000s all decade team members, not making them wait on the ballot and giving priority to those who have been waiting longer-this is a relatively new approach by the voters and one that has had its share of criticism. Mainly that such an approach pushes other deserving finalists later and later and possibly off the ballot-Lynch is likely best current example of this situation. I am not saying that I am in favor of either voting priority as I can see pros and cons to both, but do feel strongly that each year the best five should be elected regardless of how long they have been on the ballot.
I think Pearson could very well benefit from a larger special class in 2020, and I too have serious doubts if or when he would ever appear as a senior candidate via regular annual nomination process. He was clearly hurt (ignored) via an anti-Cowboys bias that existed from 1970s into early 2000s (yes there is plenty of evidence this occurred and we have discussed this at length here in the past), and is also currently hurt by having three other very deserving senior candidates from the Cowboys in Howley and Cliff Harris. And yes the Cowboys are not the only team with this same “divided” options with multiple senior candidates where choosing one over others presents a challenge for the senior committee members-Oakland and Denver being others.
losing Super Bowls did not hurt the plethora of Vikings players who lost Super Bowls but are still in the HOF. Mecklinburg is one of Two Broncos LB’s who should have already been inducted (Randy Gradishar being the other.) The *0’s is slightly under represented but I feel as though the Verterans committee will slowly start to delve into players from that decade. I believe Kuchenberg, Craig, Hayes and Jacoby will be on the agenda soon and possibly players like Walls, Bennett, Kenn, Mecklinburg and McMichael.
I have no issues seeing more 80s decade senior candidates elected but would point out that my list of most deserving is topped by #1-7 who played pre 1970s-just saying they shouldn’t be forgotten
Steve “Mongo” McMichael is the only NFL SB Champion with a Pro wrestling Title – the WCW United States Title. Now that’s impressive!
I wonder if there are any NFL HOFers who actually admitted to steroid use? Mike Webster?
Would steroid us along the lines of Lyle Alzado matter to the HOF committee or any of you guys?
I think it could very well matter to the voters, but not so sure of any players who would be considered serious candidates for the PFHOF where PED use is proven. I well aware suspicion floats around many current PFHOFers with some evidence on many.
Ya, I think it’s kind of a given it went on pretty often in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s but you’re probably right. Paul that if it was in the voters face they’d have a problem. I really doubt anyone would care on the team if a guy was doing it. Has anyone ever heard that rumor about John Randle? I mean I don’t care he was great but that guy was really beefed up plus he played a little crazy.
It’ll be fun to see how long Antonio Brown has to wait provided he doesn’t rebound with winning a SB. He could be suspended before the start of the season and should be with a new team. He like Odell Beckham Jr. seem to be derailing themselves while DeAndre Hopkin’s is starting to get the shine he deserves. If Hopkins can lead the Texans to a SB win he’s in the HOF for me or if he can duplicate what he’s done in his first 5 years over the next 5 years he’s in for me. His hands are being compared to Larry Fitzgearld .
Antonio Brown waiting for Canton?
Would it be because of character issues? Randy Moss was first ballot, even if he had his problems back in the day. He’s a mortal lock at this point.
I’ll take Hopkins over Beckham, but neither is the lock that Brown is right now.
I think there may be such an issue with Kevin Williams (6/6/00s). He should be eligible in 2021, I think.
There is no Character Clause for the PFHoF, so it may not matter to the voters. Doesn’t to me, at least — I tend to believe most everybody was on something over the last several decades, and they were just unlucky enough to get caught.
Peyton Manning was rumored to have purchased steroids. No one is going to keep him out of the HOF. In all honesty, football does not look at steroids like the baseball community does.
In Manning, I don’t have a problem because if he was taking, them it was in a desperate effort to heal and his career was in the balance. It wasn’t just to perform better than the next guy. I think that’s why no one pursued the rumors.
Williams isn’t far off from John Randle in accolades but IMO pretty far off as a player. I think he’s going to be a a fence guy for while. He should get in eventually maybe 10 years.
As to Williams, I provide exhibit #1: Zack Thomas. Yes different position but Williams (who is not close to the career sack list) and even as a 2nd team decade team member (and plenty of those from 70s to 00s not yet in), I don’t see him as a likely PFHOFer, may not get in as modern candidate, see Thomas and his slow progress.
If we assume a 2010s all decade team membership for A Brown (likely good assumption), if he retired today even with 4(1)/7 I don’t think he is a lock for quick path to election, especially given how the voters treat WRs and the numerous ones that will be on the ballot over the next decade. And yes he recent actions will be viewed poorly by the voters, right or wrong. He will get elected one day, but I doubt it will be a quick or easy path.
It interesting to see how fans view Gronk-many believe he is the greatest TE of all time. Yet he doesn’t appear in top 5 of TE career stats but does have some key single season and playoff records for TEs. A 4/5/3SBs/2010 all decade? profile is strong, but his nine year season has as many average or poor seasons (5) than great ones (4 all pro). Yes his size, receiving skills and blocking are an impressive combination and perhaps he falls into top 5 of TEs all time, but the greatest??? How can a TE with less all pro and pro bowl seasons, and not in the top 3 of career TE receptions or yards be considered the greatest of all time? I am not questioning his election but makes one wonder of like WRs he may not be first ballot??
Looks like it’s been quiet around here the last several days. Good time to stir the pot a little.
Here’s my top 75 PFHoF Senior candidates in order. Don’t hold back, I’m sure you won’t necessarily agree:
1-10: Lavvie Dilweg, Al Wistert, Duke Slater, Chuck Howley, Billy Howton, Maxie Baughan, Ken Anderson, Harold Jackson, Randy Gradishar, Jim Tyrer.
11-20: Verne Lewellen, Lemar Parrish, Cliff Harris, Ox Emerson, Del Shofner, Jimmy Patton, Walt Sweeney, Riley Matheson, Dick Barwegen, Alex Karras.
21-30: Winston Hill, Jim Ray Smith, Mac Speedie, Dave Grayson, Cliff Branch, Tommy Davis, Drew Pearson, Bobby Dillon, Gene Brito, Duane Putnam.
31-40: Eddie Meador, Bobby Boyd, Billy Wilson, Harold Carmichael, Joe Fortunato, Deron Cherry, Karl Mecklenburg, L.C. Greenwood, Bill Forester, Ed Budde.
41-50: Abe Woodson, Art Powell, George Kunz, Larry Grantham, Tom Sestak, Mark Gastineau, Joe Klecko, Houston Antwine, Mike Kenn, Nolan Cromwell.
51-60: Earl Faison, Bill Bergey, Pete Retzlaff, Lester Hayes, George Christensen, Jerry Smith, Donnie Shell, Mike Stratton, Joey Browner, Bob Kuechenberg.
61-70: Gale Gillingham, Gene Lipscomb, Ken Gray, Lionel Taylor, Ed White, Roger Brown, Louis Wright, Todd Christensen, Joe Jacoby, Marvin Powell.
71-75. John Niland, Tommy Nobis, Lee Roy Jordan, Jake Scott, Jerry Mays.
Here are my top 10 Right Now
1. Chuck Howley LB
2. Randy Gradishar LB
3. L.C. Greenwood DE
4. Bobby Boyd CB
5. Lester Hayes CB
6. Cliff Branch WR
7. Roger Craig RB
8. Cliff Harris S
9. Drew Pearson WR
10. Maxie Baughan LB
That’s a pretty good list there bachslunch, curious why you are so high on Harold Jackson (over Branch and Pearson), just wondering as that is not a take I have seen before by others?
Also seems like Winston Hill should be higher? (3 x AFL All Pro, plus 3 X NFL All pro). Also Eddie Meador, and Larry Grantham seem low?
Bill why Boyd over Ed Meador? And you may what to look back to pre 1960s as there are several deserving candidates from 40s and 50s or evern earlier, including Lavvie Dilweg, Al Wistert, Duke Slater
Here’s the stat lines for theseWR. Catches, yards, avg, TDs:
Jackson. 579/10372/17.9/76
Branch. 501/8685/17.3/67
Pearson. 489/7822/16.0/48
Carmichael. 590/8985/15.2/79
Jackson is first in yards and avg, second in catches and TDs. They’re all somewhat alike, but Jackson has a bit more bulk for the most part, and is a bit better rounded than Carmichael, who is first in catches and TDs.
I think Jackson is badly underrated.
Eddie Meador is fourth on my safety list as of now:
Harris. 4/6/70s.
Patton. 5/5/none
Dillon. 5/4/none
Meador. 3/6/60s
Cherry. 3/6/80s
Cromwell. 3/4/80s
Shell. 3/5/none
Browner. 4/6/80s
Scott. 4/5/none
I can’t really push Meador ahead of the rest, and I’m trying not to neglect other positions. Meador’s very deserving, though.
Re Grantham. The top two guys for me at LB are
Howley. 5/6/none.
Baughan. 5/9/none.
Gradishar. 4/7/none.
After that, we have
Fortunato. 3/5/50s.
Mecklenburg. 4/6/none.
Forester. 4/4/none.
Grantham. 5/5/allAFL.
This group is all in a bunch for me. After that
Stratton. 4/6/allAFL
Nobis. 2/5/60s
Jordan. 2/5/none.
They bring up rear.
Again, I’m fine with Grantham in the HoF, but the competition is enormous.
I have Winston Hill at 1/8/allAFL. He also looks excellent at Crippen’s site in limited game sample. I currently have Tyrer ahead of him and Sweeney/Barwegen closely ahead and Jim Ray Smith right behind him. For me, Tyrer is the top OL by far, and the othe four are bunched closely after him.
Robert Kraft for HOF in 2020?
Not possible but to me it would be interesting to know how many 3rd down conversions to 1st those WR’s made. I’d think Carmichael would have the most but who knows. Cris Carter and Hines Ward were very good at that.
Not coincidentally, Carmichael, Carter, and Ward were all possession type receivers rather than deep threats. And such players probably have a higher percentage of third down conversions.
Art Monk would be my guess for most third down conversion rate…
Agree Bachs, would you value one type of WR over the other or doesn’t it matter as long as they were great?
I’m thinking I appreciate possession WR’s of yesteryear more than of today with all the rule changes. Also IMO great deep threat WR’s have been harder and harder to come by with the evolution of the game with many Offenses moving more away from the run and the play action pass and taking on variations of the West Coast Offense. A lot of times the just take a few deep passes a game to loosen up the D and usually aren’t real successful. I’m trying to think if there’s a Bob Hayes, Harold Jackson or Cliff Branch or Mel Gray or John Stallworth etc…. That’s my perception anyway and I’m not sure if yards per catch average would necessarily tell the distance the throws are covering down field. Players are pretty good at taking shorter passes to the house now/
70s decade were less than ideal for WRs, 7 of the 10 annual pass reception leaders were not WRs. So major season or career numbers were not achieved (and then dismissed or bypassed as WRs starting in the mid 1980s started to put up huge numbers). Which leaves us with several WRs from that era-looking outside looking into the PFHOF and very hard to separate one from the bunch, yet they all likely at deserve consideration, but now as senior candidates tossed in with dozens of other deserving players, including WRs from other eras, I don’t know if or when any get elected:
Jackson 1(2)/5, 579/10372/17.9/76
Branch 4/4/3 SBs 501/8685/17.3/67
Pearson 3(1)/3/SB/All Decade, 489/7822/16.0/48
Carmichael (3)/4/All Decade, 590/8985/15.2/79
To answer a question from Paul. there are still a couple of Pre-60’s guys that could be included by senior committe, but it would have to be base on reputation. There are not many people left who vote who saw those players live and there is not a ton of tape out there either. There are plenty of game film left from 50’s 60’s 70’s era. Meador would have been my 12th rated guy. I just thought Boyd was a little better IMO, and he played Corner which I value a tinge more than Safety. Having said that I think Ronnie Lott is best DB of all-time. I think you guys forgot to mention Cris Carter on third down conversion rate. I would rank him ahead of Art Monk slightly and quite a bit ahead of Hines Ward. Hines Ward was very good on 3rd and 5 and getting six yards. So was Cris Carter, but he was also great at 3rd and 10 and getting 11 or 12 yards, which in the late 90’s early 2000’s was tough to do than it is in today’s game. an old time HOfamer who was great on 3rd Down was Tom Fears but he did not have the volume.
“There are not many people left who vote who saw those players live and there is not a ton of tape out there either.”
I strongly believe that neither fact should have ever-or today into the future-be a justification for not considering players. If it ever was then even in the 1970s players from pre 1950 would have never been considered or elected. The history of pro football is over 100 years and the Hall and its voters need to continue to consider all those years not just the last 50 years. If the Hall does go with an additional and special 100th anniversary class in 2020, in my view that is the ideal process and time to ensure that a number of the 17(?) selected come from the pre 1960s decades, as the current 1980s/90s senior and modern candidates will have film and personal impressions as evidence for many years to come.
Frankly if the 100th anniversary class cleared all the deserving pre 1960s candidates from the senior candidate pool-even if they end up taking most of the 17 slots, sort of a last chance for those players to be considered and elected, that would be great in my view. If that class is full of post 1970 candidates it would be very disappointing and in my view not representative of a 100 year history that such a class is intended to honor.
Candidates like T Duke Slater CHI; F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s; F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s; G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s; FB Pat Harder CHI/DET 3(3)/2; MVP/40s; OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s; HB Beattie Feathers CHI 30s; OL George Christenson DET 30s; FB Bill Osmanski CHI 1(1)/3/40s
If this big catchup class can get in: all of Dilweg, Slater, Emerson, Wistert, and Speedie, I’ll be ecstatic. If they can add Lewellen and Matheson, that will close the book on the pre-50s deserving Seniors for me.
One can hope, at least.
Paul- In order for any player to get into the Hall of Fame, there has to be evidence. I am familiar with every player that you listed and certainly guys like Wistert, Dilweg and Speedie deserve their chance, but what is the evidence for Osmanski or Christensen. Remember the people that have the opportunity to vote are just “hearing” that evidence. When you are talking about players in the sixties, seventies and eighties, many of those voters will have seen them with their own eyes, or have the opportunity to get tape.
That type of thing already goes on. It is way easier to vote for a guy from recent memory rather than someone you may have never laid your eyes upon. That is the only point I was trying to make.
Depends what you mean by evidence, so if there is no film or voters never saw a candidate from pre 1950 play (on current voters committee many have not even seen players from 70s and 60s play), but there are rich documented histories and awards that can be considered. Do you actually believe that voters spend hundreds of hours pouring over tape on candidates? Its hard but not impossible to pull historical documents and interviews from the pre 1960 era and for a presenter to make a case, we have seen it done before for pre 1950s players in PFHOF elections were no film or voters having not seen the player in action, no reason others from pre 1950s can not still be considered. My point is that if the Hall decides on a 17 member 100th anniversary class then it would be a great time to ensure several players from pre 1950s get elected and not make this simply players from 70s to current and thus a class that only represents 1/2 of pro football history.
Paul- I think you should take a look at the Pre- 50’s people that have already been entered into Hall of fame. That era has 53 Hall of famers currently inducted. There is a total right now of 326 members inducted into the hall of fame. That is 16% of the Hall of fame. That might not sound like a high number, but consider that there was often only 10 or 12 teams playing back then (there was not even regulated schedules as you could pick up games as the season went along) 16% is a pretty fair number. I’ve spent a ton of time researching the early NFL and so much of who we thought was good really depended on what kind of writer was employed by the local newspaper. I have No problem with adding a few more players from that era.
I will give you one example. Clark Hinkle is the Hall of fame and was a many time All-Pro. In 1934 he lead the league with 5 TD’s. He scored 3 of those against Chicage Rams team that had to use a number of semi-pro players and guys that had little to no experience who worked in local mills, to fill out their roster as they could not afford to pay more than a handful of players that year. That Rams team was 1-12. Hinkle ended up being ALL-Pro that year, and that was largely based on his performance in that one game.
There were seasons in the thirties where some teams would not finish out there season if they got off to slow starts or ran into financial issues.
Bill I am talking about 7-9 players from pre 1950 who should be considered as part of a 17 member special 100th anniversary class, most of whom others have been advocating for years. I realize not all are likely to be selected, but if the Hall chooses such a class, lets not see only a few token pre 1970 candidates among the 17 but a broader recognition for the entire history of pro football. This may be the best and only way they can considered, may provide an opportunity to acknowledge those deserving and as the league moves into the future, close the book on those candidates, as more senior candidates deserving of consideration from post 1980s appear on the ballot each year going forward
Dilweg, Speedie and Wister would be the Pre-1950 players to consider. If they were going to have a large class for the 100th anniversary, ithink their are more deserving players from more recent era’s and many of those players might only have a few years remaining where they could actually enjoy it.
Bill, I started the conversation with Cris Carter, Hines Ward and Carmichael. I’d add Fred Biletnikoff (damn that’s a hard name to spell) and Drew Pearson with Carter as great toe tap guys on the sidelines for 3rd down conversions. It’s still have the perception there were more bombs completed in the old days than now.
I guess I’d have had to seen Boyd playing on Sunday’s to be convinced. The perception I have from stats and who he played with and against and what I’ve read is he falls short of the HOF. Meador isn’t as high a priority for me as some of y’all but if your going to do a HOF sweep he should be in it.
Your Perception is correct. Part of the reason was there were way more play action passes and teams were under center. For the exception of the Dolphins, teams played closer to he line with their safeties. Four or Five times a game, teams would throw a deep ball. You have teams now that might go a couple of weeks in a row without a pass more than 30 yards down the field.
I used to love those deep balls to Swann, Morgan, Pearson, Hill, Branch, Lofton, Gault, Stallworth, Jefferson, Curtis, Chandler, Warfield. They were breathtaking and often game changing when they were completed.
bill just out of curiosity whats your opinion on duke slater
Yup, you got a lot of those names right Bill. Thanks for confirming it was the case. I’d add for a short time Bert Jones throwing Roger Carr , Jim Hart to Mel Gray, anyone to Harold Jackson and Cardinals Roy Green and on and on. Bengals had some great deep WR’s too.
No one wants to touch how long Robert Kraft might wait for HOF? lol I’ll say something over 3 years when I thought it would be really soon after another SB win.
I think it definitely pushes Kraft further back in consideration, after George Young, Art McNally, Steve Sabol , Bucko Kilroy. If coaches are added and if contributors are set at one slot a year, his wait could be a while.
Kraft really did himself a dis-service (no pun intended). My guess is now he waits awhile. Slater is a tough one for me because there is no film of him in action. If you go strictly by the post season awards, he should be considered. He was certainly a pioneer and an iron-man for his time almost never missing a game. I’m actually more aware of his college exploits than his Pro career. I would have no problem with him getting in and if you went by the exploits of Ernie Nevers, you would probably put him in. Nevers thought the world of his key blocker. I just wish there was someone that would speak on his behalf that actually saw him play professionally.
“Slater is a tough one for me because there is no film of him in action. ” That should not be held against his case, plenty of PFHOFers with no film.
“I just wish there was someone that would speak on his behalf that actually saw him play professionally.” Guessing there is no one alive to do so, and that also should not be held against him as it was not in case of other PFHOFers. Cases in point: Fritz Pollard and Benny Friedman
At some point you only have documented history which has and can be used to make a case.
George Halas said Slater was the best in his day at his position. Good enough for me!
Paul- you miss my point entirely. I’m not holding it against any player I haven’t seen. I’m just saying it is difficult for those type of players in the future. I have no problem with Slater being in the HOF.
If you can tell me why he should be in the HOF…I’m all for listening to the argument. Any player for that matter. But I know from what is available on a player like Johnny Robinson, “I” can give an informative response. I can’y on players before 1945. I have to rely on someone else’s opinion.
whenever I comment on this website, it is my opinion, I’m not just regurgitating someone else’s opinion.
” I have to rely on someone else’s opinion. ”
For most of us, including many voters, we have not seen enough film or even live play for any candidate to truly accurately assess their qualifications, thus we are always relying on someone else’s opinion, that was same for Johnny Robinson.
Yup, opinions of great coaches mean a lot to me like when Lombardi talked about what he saw after studying the film of Johnny Robinson. And if you can get enough of those opinions from Coaches and opposing players I’ll take it to the bank. lol Who am I to tell those experts they are wrong?
I’m thinking the info for pre-1945 players must be out there we just to have to really dig into newspaper articles. Someone was noticing their play even in the NFL’s infancy. Of course not like today with EVERYONE sharing an opinion. Maybe just an opposing HC. They pretty much just reported the facts back than I suspect. No doubt the fewer expert opinions you hear the more reluctant to make a big push for a player barely seen by anyone alive or not at all. I guess we have to trust the people charged with deciding a HOF player?
I’m still torn on how blood and guts players/ leaders on Defense should be viewed by the HOF voters when they are short on accolades but long on Team success. With the impact Matt Millen had on 3 different Teams winning 4 SB’s it’s incredible he only made one PB when he was 30 years old. He’s the John Riggins of Defensive players for me. Intangibles in football can be huge. I think his mentality for the game made everyone better. Could this be the rare case it gets someone to the HOF?
I’m not so sure about giving a “Ray Nitschke exception” to Matt Millen. How he looks in film study will matter heavily, and I’m not aware that he has a sufficiently compelling case. Besides, Millen has a significant career black eye in his GM work with Detroit, which was not good at all — and I think it needs to be considered.
The problem with a case like Matt Millen is that his 2(1) profile really hurts his chances even with the 4x SBs. The challenge with viewing candidates based on their team successes, leadership and other intangibles is that how can voters elect such a candidate when there are limited slots each year, while bypassing players with multiple all pro or other achievements? There are dozens of 2-3 all pro/4-5 pro bowl candidates that could be considered but who gets left behind if they are advanced as finalists or elected? The quality of both the modern and senior candidate pools are so deep that even all decade team members and players with multiple all-pro selections are being bypassed. Making it really hard for the voters to be innovative or creative with a selection of a player like Millen while justifying exclusion of other more accomplished candidates.
Better comparison than mine Bachs. :) Did y’all see the ESPN E:60 special “All Heart” about Millen’s heart transplant at 60 years old? It was well done. He admits to being pretty clueless about the Detroit GM job and told Mr. Ford before he hired him. lol Millen was done a dis-service IMO by being allowed to be in that job for 8 long years. Even I didn’t like him by the end and I don’t give a flip about Detroit. lol
I get Millen a little confused with Hacksaw Reynolds. Would you say Reynolds has a better HOF case?
Cedrick Hardman ex-49er passed away. 2 PB’s and SB with Raiders. Was part of a pretty good 49er DL in early 70’s.
“Hardman finished his NFL career, the 49ers list him with a franchise-best 112.5 career sacks. (He said he actually registered 120 sacks.) Hardman was a key member of a 49ers front four that also featured Tommy Hart, Cleveland Elam, and Jimmy Webb.” Front four nickname was “Gold Rush”. I remember !!
Seems like that many sacks may of gotten some DE’s into the HOF?
I always thought Harvey martin and Cedric Hardman were very comparable and both should have received more accolades and recognition. I think an argument could be made that Hardman, Martin and Leslie O’Neil are every bit as good as Fred Dean, Richard Dent and Charles Haley if you subtract the Fact that the latter three were involved with the Post season most years. Only Martin can say that amongst the former.
Without sacks an official NFL stat until 1982, many DT and DE from pre 1980 were missed in terms of deserving recognition such as All Pro, Pro Bowls and All decade teams. Really hurts their cases today to be in a senior candidates pool competing against others with those honors.
I agree Paul, If Sacks had been a recognized and well kept stat, players like Harvey Martin, Cedric Hardman, Ezra Johnson, Bubba Baker, Coy Bacon, Lyle Alzado, Roger Brown and Lamar Lundy would all be players that would be “in the room,” for Senior consideration. If for no other reason, they might have made more Pro Bowl and All- Pro Teams.
I believe many Teams have inflated unofficial sacks totals to make their players look better. Too bad because it would of been easy to keep track of.
I’m a supporter of Harvey Martin, Alex Karras and Al Baker , On the fence with Roger Brown and Hardman, A no for Johnson, Bacon and Lundy. Would like to see Bill Stanfill get strong consideration as a great player whose career was shortened by injury.
Do we all agree Terrell Suggs will have an early entry into the HOF when he hangs up his cleats?
I’m also support LC Greenwood, Leslie O’Neil and Neil Smith for HOF.
Unless he makes the All-00s team, I think Terrell Suggs (1/7/????) is no lock to be elected, never mind quickly. His honors are about even with Neil Smith (1/6/90s) who also has a lot of sacks and hasn’t gotten a sniff yet. He might make it in, of course.
Bill, agreed about Dean, Dent, and Haley vs. the other players you mentioned. I tend to give a pass to Haley because his honors are acceptable for an OLB of the time, if not a DE especially. Personally, I consider the other two mistakes. Greenwood’s 2/6/70s numbers are close to the border as well, but I’m okay with him getting in.
Bill stanfill is an interesting senior candidate, but he still seems like he would have many players ahead of him. Terrell Suggs is an interesting case as he has the stats and longevity, plus he has a fairly recognizable names as the Ravens have had plenty of deep playoff runs over the years. However, I like Dwight Freeney better and I think he may have to wait. They were both one trick ponies as they struggles against the run for much of their careers.
Good point Bill guess I didn’t realize Suggs struggled against the run. I’m not a much of a Freeney supporter. He needs to wait for his one trick pony-ness. lol I like Jared Allen and Demarcus Ware.
Jared Allen, DeMarcus Ware and Julius Peppers will have much shorter waits than Freeney and Suggs
Haloti Ngata retired today, what are his chances of making HOF. Two different positions and two different types of players but I like Haloti better than Suggs. He was more dominant during his prime years. Great at stopping the run and batting down balls but could also get to the QB. Very quick for his size. Had a Cortez Kennedy feel to his game.
At 3(1)/7/SB/All Decade/125 career sacks, I really don’t see Freeney waiting very long, 1st ballot in 2023 would not be a surprise, 1-2 yr wait also very possible. Somewhat depends on how long Allen (2021) takes as I view Ware as a clear 1s ballot in 2022-perhaps only one that year. As it stands right now, 1st ballot defensive players are outnumbered by the offense players on the 2021-2024 ballots so the pass rushers are going to draw attention of the voters.
Haloti Ngata will get consideration, but DT sometimes have a challenge (like OL) if they lack several post season awards and team selections.
The future debate regarding these players is going to be very interesting, and A LOT might come down on the All Decade voting.
Suggs has a profile of 1 AP All Pro / 7 Pro Bowls / 109 Weighted AV (68th best since 1960), plus was the only Defensive Players of the Year among those discussed in this post. That said, he also played with 2 of the top 5 (maybe even top 2) defensive players of this era in Lewis and Reed. I think he is lock for the All Decade team, either 1st or 2nd, but we’ll see. Finally, this community seems to severely underappreciate Suggs’ play against the run. He is much closer to a complete player than a pure edge like Freeney. For comparison’s sake, Freeney is credited with 333 tackles and 126 tackles for loss. Suggs already has 854 and 193. Peppers only has 724 / 175. Suggs has been, if anything, a highly underappreciated player.
Ngata has a surprisingly strong profile as well: 2/5/102 (110th best since 1960). Not sure he is a lock of the All Decade team simply because his best years straddle the late 2000s and early 2010s. IF he did make the All Decade team, his chances would seem to be much better. Although again, he was arguably only the fourth best defensive players on his team behind Lewis, Reed, and Suggs.
Peppers is the outliner, slam dunk candidate: 3/9/2000 (2d team)/ 129 (22nd best since 1960). Not much else to say. He might very well back the 2010 All Decade team as well. One interesting caveat, however, is that he didn’t make first team 2000 All Decade, but …
Freeney did. His profile would appear the weakest of this group (3/7/2000 (1st team)/79 (401st since 1960), but he was a FIRST TEAM ALL DECADE player. He also played with another premier pass rusher in Mathis, which likely “stole” some sacks from his very impressive 125 total.
Ware is also a near lock HOFer with 4/9/2000 (2d team)/ 100 (125th best since 1960). Worth noting that Suggs’ weighted AV is already significantly better than Ware’s and Suggs has a DPOY whereas Ware does not. Finally, Suggs again has tackles and TFL: 854/193 to 659/171.
Allen is also a likely HOFer, but again Suggs compares very favorably. Allen’s profile 4/5/ likely all decade / 99 (134th best since 1960). Again, Suggs’s weighted AV is already significantly better than Allen’s and Suggs has a DPOY whereas Allen does not. Suggs again has better career tackle numbers: 854/193 to 642/171.
In short, I would rank the players as: Peppers, Suggs, Ware, Freeney, Ngata, and Allen.
I know we have gone down this discussion road before, but does anyone-including most importantly the voters – really view weighted AV as a key subjective means of separately potential HOFers, especially if the values are very similar? I am all for analytics as adding new information, but let’s be realistic in that they are as much subjective (and can vary between how calculated under differing systems/weighting) as All Pro and All Decade team selections. And voters love those sacks, so I would suspect the order would go Peppers (2024), Ware (2022), Allen, Suggs (2025+) and Freeney (2023)- and I would not be surprised if all but Allen were 1st ballot, in fact like some of the current WRs and safeties it could be that Allen (2021) ends up waiting 4-5 years for the others to be elected and clear off the ballot.
I have Haloti Ngata with a 3/5/10s? profile. I think he has a good chance of making the all-10s team, but one never knows. Am thinking the tackles will be Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Ndamukong Suh, and Ngata. Re the HoF, my guess is that he waits a good while, maybe not making it in in time.
Also agree with Paul about AV. My guess is that voters don’t take things like this into much consideration.
Gronk retired today
Robert’s right. Gronk just announced his retirement today.
I think he’s definitely getting in., probably not waiting too long. His profile of 5/5/10s? Is very good at his position, and he was kind of a rarity — a throwback kind of TE who could block as well as catch the ball.
He managed to stretch his career out to nine seasons, which is a little short but not bad. And his numbers look good, compiling enough to not look like the second coming of Todd Christensen.
Might be first ballot if he comes up in a weak year for first-time candidates, though I’d guess he’ll wait a coup,e years before being elected.
As things stand only Julius Peppers and Gronk look like potential first ballot candidates in 2024.
Larry Fitzgerald, Adam Vinatieri and Adrian Peterson are under contract for 2019. Same for Frank Gore, Antonio Gates and the returning Jason Witten.
Of those names I’d say Gates is the most likely to be cut/retire before next season starts. He has very little left in the tank.
I believe Gronk will be a first ballot hall of famer not just because of what he did on the field (stats and Super Bowl and the eye test) but because he will probably remain in the public eye for the considerable future. I expect to see him on TV a lot. That will help keep him fresh in people’s minds.
Stephen A Smith, “Gronk is a sure fire 1st ballot HOFer.” I think he will wait a year. No science behind it. lol
Best pure TE’s of all-time : Rob Gronkowski, Mike Ditka and Tony Gonzalez, Dave Casper. Ok straighten me out. lol
John Mackey behind Ditka
Writers love Gronk so I suspect he will be elected first ballot, but looking at 9 year career with 4 first time all pro seasons yet with equal number of average or below average seasons (4)-yes due to injuries – does makes for an interesting debate. Also likely the 5 SBs with 3 SB wins and playoff numbers will carry significant weight in the voting decision. If I was voting I would hold the short career and equal number of great vs average seasons against him as 1st ballot selection and would not elect.
My ques is who is the best senior te
Best Senior TE? My choices would be Pete Retzlaff and Jerry Smith.
Best Sr Tight Ends are
1.Pete Retzlaff
2. Todd Christensen
3. Jerry Smith
4. Fred Arbanas
5. Raymond Chester
6. Riley Odoms
7. Russ Francis
Of course you can’t compare them to Today’s Tight Ends. He is not a Senior yet, but I would put Ben Coates on this list after Christensen.
Gronk is a HOFer no doubt about it, but I think he waits a couple years.
Playing around 210 lbs, Pete Retzlaff and Jerry Smith were ahead of their time playing TE.
I’d give Retzlaff a little bit of a shot, maybe 25%. I suspect being a hybrid player in the day of prototypical TE’s may be what’s hurting Retzlaff’s case but a football player is a football player right? Wouldn’t be an issue today still. :)
I don’t don’t see a HOF career at all when I look at Jerry Smith’s career. I see a guy who had a nice 5 year run playing with a HOF QB and then a very good one. He’s got one shiny thing, 60 TD’s. If he gets in it’s political IMO. I seriously doubt that happens. If it was about inclusive politics Duke Slater would be in the HOF and he’s got a better case IMO . He has the misfortune of playing in the low media age.
Arbanas has no chance with his low numbers , short career, best years in early AFL and being a Kansas City Chief.
I’ve got Todd Christenson with a good shot at 75%, Riley Odoms, Raymond Chester, Russ Francis at about 25 %. All three had HOF talent but probably fall short but who knows.
i think your nitpicking jerry smith tony p a little bit
With a 1(2)/2 profile Jerry Smith simply does not have a strong case for the PFHOF
Russ Francis was “All-World” with upstart New England in the mid- 70’s and finished strong as a winner in San Fran. Injuries slowed him after grabbing attention early in his career. Hard to believe a guy makes the Pro Bowl with 16 catches and 4 TDs in 10 games. There I go nitpicking. lol His best season in 1980 he didn’t make the PB.
At 6’6 and 240lbs was Francis the Gronk of his day? Funny how both missed a lot of games with injuries.
So you gotta hit a guy in a certain way in the so-called target zone and now they’re looking to review all pass catching for any contact. How they going to decide on mutual contact? It can’t be very much fun to play on Defense any more. I thought they’d just tweak on the review of the pass plays with a challenge flag in the last two minutes of a half or maybe just in the playoffs. The whole game is being micromanaged right into the dumper.
“Welcome to Zoneblitz.com, where you can find Fantasy Football musings, Pro Football Hall of Fame chatter, and more random football thoughts & info.”
My random football thoughts aren’t being addressed. LOL Paul didn’t you offer to write some articles for ZoneBlitz? We have a NFL Draft coming up. lol Or are you just about HOF? Is that all we care about? I can talk a little about today’s game. :)
Shane Lechler retired after 18 seasons in the NFL. He was one of the top 5 Punters i have ever seen. Does he have any chance of making the HOF in anyone’s opinion? My top 5
1. Ray Guy
2. Tommy Davis
3. Jerrell Wilson
4. Shane Lechler
5. Sean Landetta
6. Darren Bennett
7. Reggie Roby
Perhaps someday, but took the senior candidate route and decades for Guy to get elected, and I just don’t see an easier or quicker path for any punter including Lechler, Maybe the in the future, but I would not hold your breath waiting for it as voters are going to favor full time defensive and offensive players first and every year there are 15-20 of those deserving on the ballot.
Hey Tony–sorry, we know we haven’t been as active lately–the last couple of offseasons we have tended to ramp down quite a bit, as there is so much other content out there for draft, FA, etc. We do have some things in the works, to try and carve out a bit of a niche here (or a couple of niches, possibly), so hope you’ll stay tuned.
It’s OK Tony I’m still here. lol Happy Easter everyone!
It looks like Marshawn Lynch’s career is over. Is he a Hall of Famer, or just Hall of Very Good?
Hall of Very Good
I think I’m with you paul
Such an impact player for three -four years but he doesn’t quite make the grade for me. That said how does he match up versus John Riggins? Both had a cult like following. I can see “Beastmode” Lynch making the HOF one day.
im sorry but who are you guys to say jerry smith doesnt have a case
Riggins has SB MVP plus second player to score 100+ rushing TDs
And before any one asks neither Sebastian Janikowski or Jamaal Charles are getting into the Hall (except if you are on Twitter they have fans who are posting convinced they will!)
I’ve never thought Janikowski was HOF good. Is punting teammate Lechler was IMO. Charles maybe one day in the distant future mostly because he stood out as one of the best RB’s in a time in a fairly week RB time. Only Adrian Peterson, Beastmode and Shady McCoy come to mind off top of my head. If Floyd Little gets in never say never. :)
Charles never led the league in rushing, was selected first team all pro just once, and has no career season or career records or awards, and no playoff success-so he does not have a strong case. BTW neither does Chris Johnson, who has one 2000 yard season and all pro season but no other major accomplishments.
And yes Floyd Little should not be in the Hall, but a five member seniors committee sometimes made some odd decisions, one I doubt we will see repeated anytime soon.
I don’t like Charles, Chris Johnson, M. Lynch or Janikowski getting into the Hall of Fame. I do like Rob Gronkowki, Julius Peppers getting in on the First Ballot. Shane Lechler possibly some day.
The Gronk first ballot debate will be interesting to see as with a 9 year career that includes 5 average or below average seasons (yes mostly because of injuries) a case can be made that his career is not 1st ballot worthy, yet his impact and playoff numbers, plus 4 All Pro, 3 SBs and likely 2010s all decade are strong. But keeping in mind that a similar short career and SBs, with more accomplishments like MVP and OPOY award, still kept Terrell Davis waiting 10 years on ballot until elected.
I think Mahomes as his QB, 29 year-old 2/4 Travis Kelce will make HOF when he’s done. That’s bold prediction. LOL 4/7 and a SB winner. Which is more likely Kelce HOF or Andy Reid SB win? hehehe
I think a better comparison for Gronk is Sayers than Terrell Davis. Up until that point that Sayers retired, he was probably the second best running back ever behind Jim Brown. People that are in Football think of Gronk as the best or second best TE ever. Terrell Davis is not even in the top 15 Running Backs of all- Time.
I have no doubt that Gronk will be elected to the Hall, but I suspect his case (and the debate) for a 1st ballot election may be more divided among the voters then one may think.
I was thinking like you about Sayers. Who would be argued as best if not Gronk? Gonzalez? I’m trying to think skill wise no doubt no TE had a better career catching the ball than Gonzalez. I wish I would of seen Ditka in his prime versus his peers. Also I heard John Mackey was awful good. Both were probably complete TE;s?
John Mackey and Mike Ditka were both great blockers and were very accomplished receivers. The reason why they don’t have a lot of receptions, is that they didn’t always go out on pass patterns even when there teams were in pass plays. It was not uncommon to only have two receivers going out on routes and having the Tight end remain on the line to block. Teams started using the Tight ends to run seam routes because of the effectiveness of Ditka and Mackey. Here are my All-time TE rankings.
1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Tony Gonzalez
3. John Mackey
4. Mike Ditka
5. Jason Witten
6. Ozzie Newsome
7. Kellen Winslow SR.
8. Antonio Gates
9. Shannon Sharpe
10 Greg Olsen
Why are some of you against janikowski
Was never 1st team all pro, never led league in points, isn’t in top 5 of career total points, not all decade team member, kickers will always be rare and few selected for Hall and he’s simply not great enough to warrant it
Agreed 100% with Paul.
Chase Stuart’s career FG accuracy rankings adjusted for era as of 2014 had Sebastian Jankowski ranked 47th (and Adam Vinatieri 50th, incidentally). Jankowski currently ranks 10th all-time in scoring (Vinatieri currently ranks 1st and is still active).
Being the all-time scoring leader and a (dubious) perception that he was “clutch” in the postseason will probably be enough to get Vinatieri in despite his FG accuracy numbers related to era. Jankowski doesn’t have that on his resume.
Given that clearly superior place kickers such as Nick Lowery, Gary Anderson, and Jason Hanson don’t appear likely to be enshrined, that leaves Jankowski on the outside looking in for sure. In fact, I’d probably rank players like Jim Bakken, Mark Moseley, and Garo Yepremian ahead of him.
I dont buy anything that chase stuart says i do agree with paul though
I much rather read stuff from John Turney “Football Journal.” He just got thru ranking every position from WW!! until today. I don’t personally agree with all of his rankings but they are interesting. I had done my own rankings myself last year. We were surprisingly close on most everything except WR. He had some guys in the top 20 that ere not in my top 40 and vice versa.
Robert, what is it about Chase Stuart’s observations that you “don’t buy?” Just curious. Here’s the article on kickers:
http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-field-goal-kickers-of-all-time-ii-part-iii-career-rankings/
didnt buy it before but now i do just curious if he has nick lowery first what hasnt nick gotten a deeper look
Robert, thanks for the reply.
The problem here is an emphasis on career points scored rather than FG percentage when only one of these is present. Sometimes these two overlap, but not always. Lou Groza, George Blanda, and Morten Andersen were the all time scoring leaders when they retired, though only Andersen places high up in FG percentage adjusted to era of these three (Groza does also, but Stuart’s cutoff point in his survey only has about half of Groza’s career or he’d likely qualify too). It’s one of the primary reasons Adam Vinatieri will make it in, too, despite mediocre FG rate numbers.
The primary exception is Jan Stenerud, and the difference maker for him was that he was the first soccer style kicker with a long career.
Nick Lowery (and Gary Anderson) are on the wrong side of the fence here, sorry to say.
Punters and kickers will always be a rare selection to the Hall, so there are likely many that could be considered for a variety of reasons and metrics but only a few will ever get in, including Lowery and Gary Anderson being left out I suspect
I can understand completly bachs
Sorry Sammy and Ray, 6/7 Shane Lechler “best Punter in NFL history” stuck on mostly crappy teams. Doubt he’ll ever get his HOF due.
Oh Bill!! Shannon Sharpe would not like you putting Witten above him. LOL
I never thought Janikowski was the best Kicker in any NFL season. Seems like he would miss some important kicks. Hell of a leg though and a character. Not sure if you want your Kicker to be a character aka Mike Vanderjagt. Ask Peyton Manning. LMBO!
Garo Yepremian was soccer style before Jan Stenerud but not sure if he was first? He was a character in a good way except in SB VII when everyone wanted to strangle him. lol
GREAT NEWS
“Good news for Hall-of-Fame seniors: Centennial class “is going to happen””
“There’s been a lot of speculation lately about a proposed Centennial Class for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, a one-time body of inductees — many of them from decades past – to join Canton as part of the NFL’s 100th anniversary celebration.
Well, forget about speculation. The Centennial Class is a plan that “is going to happen,” according to Joe Horrigan, the Hall’s former executive director who retired this month after 42 years.
How it will be accomplished … how many players, coaches and contributors will be chosen … how they will be chosen … who that group is and how it will be honored … essentially, the “details,” as Horrigan put it, has not been determined.
Nevertheless, having the idea itself accepted is a significant step toward reducing a backlog of qualified seniors, coaches and contributors that only increases with each year. According to our Rick Gosselin, there are seven first-team all-decade players in the senior pool, and only one – former Dallas safety Cliff Harris – has been a Hall-of-Fame finalist.
Worse, that happened just once (2004).
“Let me put it this way,” Horrigan said on the Talk of Fame Network broadcast that aired Wednesday night, “It has been, in principle, approved. Our board meets later this month – our Hall-of-Fame board of directors – and we’ll go to them again with more detailed plans different from what we produced for them two months ago.
“But I will tell you this: We do not have the final blessing on it, only because we have to work out details. Now the question of whether or not they support the idea that everybody does (isn’t really a question) … Now we just have to come down with what the size of the class would be, how they will be selected and who will do it.”
Too often, qualified candidates wait decades before hearing their names called. It took guard Jerry Kramer, a member of the NFL’s 50th anniversary team, 45 years to be elected in 2018. Safety Johnny Robinson waited 43 years to be inducted this summer. Quarterback Ken Stabler was enshrined 27 years after retiring and one year after his death.
But others never move forward, one reason the senior pool has been labeled “the abyss.” With no more than three seniors eligible for election every two years, the list of qualified candidates can barely be scratched by the Hall’s 48 selectors. According to Gosselin, there are 65 all-decade “position” choices (i.e., no kickers or return specialists) who aren’t in the Hall … including 58 who haven’t been discussed as finalists.
I’m sorry, but that’s just not right. And, apparently, the Hall agrees.
So it has come up with an idea that’s as welcome as it is sensible. Celebrating the NFL’s 100th anniversary in 2020 by having what some call an “amnesty class” (a term the Hall loathes) helps to do what voters could not – take a bite out of the ranks of qualified candidates who have been forgotten, ignored or both.
“Without going into too much detail,” said Horrigan, “I think it will be a way in which we honor those players, coaches and contributors who participated in the game’s first century that have been … through no fault of their own …overlooked.
“We want to make sure that they get their fair shake before we start moving into the next century and have this continuing, growing backlog of players who, through no fault of their own … others than just the mere numbers game … (have trouble) getting elected.”
One likely target would be former NFL star Duke Slater, a six-time All-Pro who played in the 1920s and was the first African-American lineman in NFL history. On the latest Talk of Fame Network interview, Horrigan reiterated something he said months before in a previous interview with us … and that’s that, if he had a voter, he would make Slater his first choice for Canton.
Slater played for the Milwaukee Badgers, the Rock Island Independents and the Chicago Cardinals. He later was instrumental in forming an all-star team of African-American players and coached black semi-pro teams in the late 1930s and in 1940.
He is, as Horrigan said, “a perfect example” of someone who has been overlooked.
“When he was in Chicago,” said Horrigan, “he played a position that was difficult for people to understand — even today — as a lineman in an era when even that was less understood. In the ‘60s, when they (voters) were trying to pick players from the ‘20s, that was a very tough task.
“There are just so many more factors that move into consideration for players like Duke. (But the bottom line) is: The Centennial Class is going to happen. Exactly how many and how … we haven’t worked out. We have a couple of different proposals there. But I’m looking forward to it.”
https://footballmaven.io/talkoffame/api/amp/talkoffame/nfl/good-news-for-hall-of-fame-seniors-centennial-class-is-going-to-happen-axpCVZEdOkSTuWSU3HEbwg/?__twitter_impression=true
Details on this still be be determined by Board at their next meeting BUT my understanding is that the usual process and timeline for the Class of 2020 elections (5 moderns+2 seniors+1contributor) will continue as usual, if Board approves this additional and special 100th anniversary class they would be honored at the NFL 100th Anniversary weekend events already planned for September 17-20th, 2020 (and likely via a mail in ballot from the 48 voter panel like the all decade teams are selected, and not part of selection meeting day before Superbowl or another separate meeting).
Ideas have centered on perhaps as many as 17 enshrinees (could be much less) drawing from current senior candidate pool, with likely focus on all decade team players, especially 1st team members not yet in the Hall.
Sad news with the reporting that Class of 2019 PFHOF member Pat Bowlen has passed away
How would you do the centennial class?
The expanded HoF is really great news. The suggestion I’ve read has it being a mix of players,owners, and coaches not unlike the very first HiF class.
Personally, I much prefer having as many players as possible on the induction ranks of deserving coaches is pretty thin, with guys like Buddy Parker and Clark Shaughnessy the only ones I’d seriously consider. Same with owners:Ralph Hay and Robert Kraft are probably the best available.
There are tons of older players that really should top the list. Here’s a list of 17 I could easily get behind:
Lavvie Dilweg
Duke Slater
Ox Emerson
Verne Lewellen
Al Wistert
Mac Speedie
Billy Howton
Bobby Dillon
Del Shofner
Maxie Baughan
Jim Tyrer
Chuck Howley
Buddy Parker
Clark Shaughnessy
Ralph Hay
Ken Anderson
Cliff Harris
The 50s and beyond players are all living, too, except for Tyrer, who probably isn’t getting in any other way otherwise.
However, I don’t doubt there will be folks who get in that I don’t agree with. And I’m sure there will be no shortage of lobbying and partisanship for folks who don’t have good arguments.
It’ll be an interesting exercise, to say the least.
As the induction ranks of deserving coaches…
Very first HoF class…
Damn autocorrect.
Great news about the expanded senior’s class! If they are going to do it, I hope that it’s a mix of players across all decades since the league began. Not crazy about the idea of incorporating coaches and contributors though. I agree with bachslunch that the pool there is pretty thin.
I have to call out one quote from that original article that Paul posted that particularly irks me though: “According to our Rick Gosselin, there are seven first-team all-decade players in the senior pool, and only one – former Dallas safety Cliff Harris – has been a Hall-of-Fame finalist.”
This is sounds like a very informed, call to action type of statement, until you realize:
1) The hall of fame only started naming a 1st and 2nd all-decade team with the 1970s team.
2) 4 of those 7 first-timers are special teams players
3) 1 of the remaining 3 is Jimbo Covert, who is not deserving of induction
4) The other two players are former Cowboys (Harris and Pearson) that probably suffered over the years due to a lack of support from the resident Dallas writer on the Hall of Fame voting committee, who was…oh yeah, Rick Gosselin, lol.
There’s definitely guys on the all-decade teams that deserve to be in, but if I’m looking at the top 50 or so snubs in the senior’s pool, more than half aren’t on one of the all-decade teams.
The seven that Gosselin is referring to are: Lavern Dilweg (1920s), guard Ox Emerson (1930s), guard Bruno Banducci. tackle Al Wistert (1940s), wide receiver Drew Pearson, safety Cliff Harris (1970s), Jim Covert (1980s)? I think most posters here would support Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert, Pearson and Harris, so at least 5 of his 7 could all be part of a special anniversary class. He also points out 9x pro bowl players Linebacker Maxie Baughan, and offensive linemen Jim Tyrer and Walt Sweeney, another three who have had their names mentioned by others as potential senior nominees.
So Dilweg, Emerson, Wistert, Pearson, Harris, Baughan, Tyrer (less likely) and Sweeney would give us 7 or 8 of a start to a pretty good anniversary class.
I concur with paul about the first 7 who else would you select paul just curious
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
2. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
3. OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
4. T Duke Slater CHI
5. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
6. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
7. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
This would be my 7, I hope any special 100th anniversary class would be larger (although I understand there is some doubt and debate about 17), so perhaps 10 would be nice round number and in that case would add:
8. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
9. F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
10. WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
I feel pretty good about 1-7, but willing to admit several others could fill 8-10
Oh and to be honest as much as I like my 7, frankly any special class of 7-17 candidates would be a huge improvement in addressing the seniors class-and yes until told otherwise (we see the rules for such an election) I am only considering senior candidates and not coaches or contributors-although I suspect we will end up with a special anniversary class with some of those as well.
And yes a 2020 regular election of 2 senior candidates and/or special anniversary class MUST have Chuck Howley, that’s my only requirement.
If Gosselin is referring to guys from the earlier all-decade teams, then I retract my statement. I was under the impression that he was referring to Harris, Pearson, Covert, Garo Yepremian, Rick Upchruch, Billy “White Shoes” Johnson, and Mike Nelms.
Dilweg, Emerson and Wistert would all make fantastic inductees. Howley, Baughan and Harris would top my list of senior snubs overall.
Gosselin is focused on the remaining 1st team all decade players from 1920s through 1980s still not in the Hall, the list of all decade players not in Hall gets much larger if you start adding 2nd team players as especially from the pre 1970s teams as there are plenty of those players not in. He is making argument that if the Hall voters at the time (or retroactively for the pre 1960s teams) picked that player as best at their position for that decade (hence 1st team), then they should be in the Hall.
heres my list of poss players that i would choose for the 2020 cent class
1.Ken Anderson
2.Maxie Baughan
3.Cliff Branch
4.Bobby Dillon
5.Cliff Harris
6.Winston Hill
7. Drew Pearson
8. Walt Sweeney
9. LC Greenewood
10.Bob Kuechenberg
Here are my ten taking from everyone’s lists.
1. LB Chuck Howley
2. T Duke Slater
3. LB Maxie Baughan
4. S Cliff Harris
5. T-G-DT Al Wistert
6. T Jim Tyrer
7. DE LC Greenwood
8. LG Bob Kuechenberg
9. WR Cliff Branch
10. DB Jimmy Patton
Others: Ken Anderson, Jimmy Patton, Winston Hill, Eddie Meador, Walt Sweeney Donnie Shell, Drew Pearson, Lester Hayes
6.
Excellent Job Tony
I thought yours was good to Robert.
Is LG Bob Kuechenberg really that deserving and much more so than Joe Jacoby? Or G Ox Emerson (5/30s)?
And guys no love for Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s?
That was my prelim list Paul changes will be made
Kooch was involved in more wins than any non QB (Brady) player not by accident. A hell of a gutty player and leader on Miami’s OL for a very long time. And like he said if their wasn’t a hole for FB Csonka to run through he wouldn’t of gotten zip on his on. Instead FB Csonka was one of the toughest to bring down before a 5 yard gain in NFL history for several years. His Dolphin’s OL surpassed Ox Emerson’s OL as having most rush yards in a season. Ox Emerson was a Longhorn great which I like. I’m totally against but I’m not impressed with the number of his starts 67 and looks like the last two AP’s may be more on reputation. And all due respect, he was just a Guard in the days of two-way players. George Musso and Mike Michalske seem to be the the standard and Emerson comes up short. Seems like with the OL voters like to see durability. I know it’s a little tougher to judge when they played because players didn’t make squat in dollars and injuries were more impactful.
Does anyone understand the Fritz Pollard induction? Resume seems a little thin. Maybe he was Red Grange like?
Fritz Pollard was via the efforts of Tony Dungy and others who pushed hard for the recognition of an early African American who had major historical impacts on the league.
I don’t really have a problem with supporting Kooch, just a little surprised to see him ranked in the top 10 by two posters, seems pretty high to me given the quality of depth of candidates in the seniors pool, at all positions and eras. A profile with two 1st team all pro selections (and no all decade team selection) just seems lacking, especially with the number of seniors with 4+ still not in the Hall.
In my own personal opinion, I would put Randy Gradishar in before Kooch. Kuchenberg was a very good blocker and played on some fantastic teams. but Gradishar helped define a team and was a tackling machine! Hopefully both get in before too long.
why are we obessed with kuechenberg and his non decade selection
Gradishar is a good pick. I was going off the top of my head. I would of picked Gradishar before Robert Brazile but not before Kooch bit it’s splitting hairs. Kooch was a heck of a Guard who made it up to the final cut I don’t know how many times. I think it was thought his outspoken brash attitude cost him. Dolphins have a few like that from their undefeated team. lol I thought he had a lot of supporters too.
Thanks Paul did not know about Pollard. Politics! lol I wonder why Texas Longhorn great Ernie Koy from around 1930 didn’t play pro ball? OK, got the answer he played baseball. Would of been a heck of a football player I bet. https://texassports.com/news/2007/1/1/010107aag_806.aspx
“why are we obsessed with kuechenberg and his non decade selection”
For me it’s only because there too many 1st team all decade members (and perhaps a few 2nd team selections) and/or those with 4+ 1st team all pro selections that remain not elected-those are my top 20.
We clear the deck of 10-15 of those candidates, then the tier of next candidates that includes Kuechenburg moves to top 10 immediately.
Agree Paul , plus timing doesn’t matter for “Kooch” since he passed away last year. :(
Agree Paul, besides timing for Kuechenberg doesn’t matter much since he passed away last year. :(
Not sure why it didn’t show up the first time. lol
According to David Baker interview today the Hall operating board has approved in principle a special Hall class of 2020 for NFL 100th anniversary of 5 moderns+2 seniors+3 contributors+ 10 seniors= total of 20, full Hall Board to discuss and vote on proposal at their August 2 meeting
During interview today David Baker mentioned that Hall operating board has recommended a special NFL 100th anniversary class of 2020 consisting of 5 modern+2 seniors+3 contributors+10 seniors = 20 total class for 2020, operating board has approved, full Hall Board to vote on proposal on Aug 2nd
Correction: 5 moderns+10 seniors+3 contributors+2 coaches
If this comes to fruition, here is my “1st thoughts” list.
Modern
1. Troy Polamalu
2. Alan Faneca
3. Tony Boselli
4. Steve Atwater
5. Richard Seymour
Contributors
1. Ed Sabol Jr.
2. Robert Kraft (although I imagine he was hurt by his off-season this year)
3. Art McNally
Coach’s
1. Don Coryall
2. Jimmy Johnson
Seniors
1. Chuck Howley
2. Randy Gradishar
3. Drew Pearson
4. Lavie Dilweg
5. Al Wistert
6. L.C. Greenwood
7. Eddie Meador
8. Mac Speedie
9. Lester Hayes
10. Maxie Baughan
Thanks for posting about this latest development. Not as good as 17 extra inductees on top of the five regular candidates, but better than usual.
My guess on who is likely to get elected, excluding the five regular candidates:
Don Coryell
Clark Shaughnessy
Steve Sabol
George Young
Art McNally
Lavvie Dilweg
Duke Slater
Ox Emerson
Al Wistert
Mac Speedie
Del Shofner
Alex Karras
Drew Pearson
Cliff Harris
Jim Covert
Not the same as who I’d like to see, of course, though there’s overlap.
My predictions:
Modern Candidates
Steve Atwater
Tony Boselli
Alan Faneca
Edgerrin James
Troy Polamalu
Contributors
Art McNally
Steve Sabol
George Young
Coaches
Don Coryell
Tom Flores
Senior Candidates
LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
T Duke Slater CHI
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
ok could some one explain to me why pauls list doesnt have duke slater but bachs has duke slater just curious
I love the show , “Speak For Yourself” but they don’t have a clue about one-time 20 HOF player selection topic. Especially my favorite Jason Whitlock who says they shouldn’t do it. And Shawn Merriman says it’s needed to get guys like Steve Hutchinson and Edg James etc. because they will never get in if a few more years go by. It’s like he don’t even know about the Senior selections. No one is even considering the pre-80’s players.
Robert, Paul has him Bill doesn’t. Duke Slater has become a popular choice but not for everyone with a lack of evidence and deserving players still alive to pick from. I’m willing to support Slater based on my respect for Papa Bear’s words for him.
besides ken anderson which qb should be considered for the big class
There are not many QB’s left that I would put in the HOF besides Ken Anderson. I will rank a few, but honestly i would be surprised if anyone gets in besides Anderson.
1. Ken Anderson
2. John Brodie
3. John Hadl
4. Phil Simms
5. Roman Gabriel
6. Charlie Connerly
7. Jim Hart
Ken Anderson is the only Senior QB I think is a significant snub, and the only one I see as a must.
John Brodie and Roman Gabriel would be lukewarm secondary options. Not much in favor of anyone else.
100% Totally agreed bach’s
according to pfr’s av the gaps between the other qbs and ka is staggering
1.Ken Anderson 161
2. John Hadl 143
3. Jim Hart 136
4.Roman Gabriel 131
5. John Brodie 129
6. Phil Simms 118
7. Craig Morton 115
8. Darryl Lamonica 90
9. Earl Morrall 86
10. Jack Kemp 83
Danny White 102 AV HOVG
While I like Simms QB deserves HOF. Just a bunch of very good and flashes of greatness.
Ken Anderson was a product of Paul Brown and Bill Walsh’s tootalage. He was one of the most talented QB’s in the League during the 1970’s before he faded away with 5 poor years right in his prime where he lost his confidence. He had some pretty good teammates like Essex Johnson, Isaac Curtis, Charlie Joiner, Bob Trumpy, Pete Johnson, Cris Collingsworth, and Dan Ross. IMO Curtis was HOF talent but not a HOFer. He needed to play opposite another really good WR threat after Joiner left. Anderson resurrected his career to have one really great year and another really good one like John Riggins. Maybe if Anderson could of beaten Montana’s 49er’s he would of gotten enough shine? Anderson doesn’t make it for me.
A lot of players I’ve ranked in the past don’t make the grade if I tighten my outlook and step away from wishing. I’ll admit Bob Kuechenberg is right on the fence and Jake Scott just misses. I’ve got Chuck Howley as priority one.
I think I’ll come out with a list with more scrutiny.
Still not feeling HOFer Charlie Joiner in over other great WR’s of the time. We’ve talked about his length of career. Guess it’s more the speed it happened than skill although I still wonder. To me he was like about the 4th best weapon on Chargers’ Offense. I could be wrong. Floyd Little we all know but he didn’t take a spot from another RB. To me WR is one position once you have enough time some of the numbers don’t matter as much especially in the pre-90’s NFL. I would look a Drew Pearson more favorably and Cliff Branch is a given. Also Harold Jackson has been overlooked big time! I’ve got one of the Mark Brothers in the HOF probably Clayton at least equal to Joiner. I can name more I’m sure.
No QB deserves HOF IMO.
according to av charlie joiner had the highest av of coryells chargers wr’s at 100 between jackson and joiner its really close joiner 134 Jackson 123 so we agree there as it pertains to anderson we agree he seemed to peeter out after 82 would you agree
I’m not saying Joiner doesn’t belong but I use him as an example how many other WR’s I think are HOF deserving. I’d have to study the stats but Chuck Muncie, Kellen Winslow, John Jefferson, Wes Chandler and James Brooks felt like more exciting offensive options. With Dan Fouts at QB hard to believe that Team never went to a Super Bowl.
I’d have to say Winslow would be by top guy let me know what your research finds
To me a 1,000 yds a season or 71.42 yds per game over a 14 game season is the gold standard for excellence for a RB. I was going to apply the same standard for WR but don’t think I can when running the ball was more prevalent and fewer WR’s reached that mark. I think something like 900 yds would be a better standard. Drew Pearson led the League one year with fewer than 900 yds. That was an outlier. . I think the late 80’s-early 90’s was probably when the League moved more towards the pass with the popularity of the west coast offense, run and shoot, K-gun etc…
Charlie Joiner topped 900 yards 6 times which is about what you’d expect from a HOFer. Paul Warfield only topped 900 yds 3 times but had 10 or more TDs in 4 seasons and a career avg of 20.1 yds a catch. My dream scenario would be to see what Paul Warfield could do today. :) I once had a fantasy team where my picks for my WR team were Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Paul Warfield. Can you come up with one as good? All 1st Ballot HOFers.
From 1978-1982 Charlie Joiner was 3rd,2nd,3rd, 3rd and 4th best offensive weapon in my estimation. His career really was aided by having Winslow and Muncie. He was super popular in San Diego because he played well at an advanced age for a WR plus he was with the Chargers pre-Air Coryell when he was all they had as an offensive threat.
John Jefferson 2/4, 3 times over 900 yds was the best WR the Chargers had in 78,79 and 80 than he left the Chargers for greener pastures in Green Bay. Bad career move as it turned out. Wes Chandler 1/4, 5 times over 900 yds replaced Jefferson. He caught passes for an amazing 1,032 yds in just 8 games in the shortened 1982 season. Wow!!
wow indeed
If you have Rice and Moss…you can pretty much plug in a number of guys for that third spot. Excluding Don Hutson (football was too different back then) I would pait Rice and Moss with WR’s in this order.
1. Terrell Owens
2. Marvin Harrison
3. Raymond Berry
4. Paul Warfield
5. Lance Alworth
6. Steve Largent
7. Michael Irvin
As you can see, it is hard to have a wrong answer id Rice and Moss are the first two.
who are your top coaches and contributors for the special class
New List of 10 thoughts
Cliff Branch
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
LC Greenwood
Cliff Harris
Lester Hayes
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
Drew Pearson
Al Wistert
I was listening to NFL satellite radio yesterday and heard Cliff Branch and Henry Ellard speak. They did not “seek out enshrinement,” by speaking about themselves (both very humble) but you forget how much players can be overlooked. Branch caught a TD once every seven receptions and until Jerry Rice went to 4 Super Bowls, Branch had almost every playoff receiving record. Ellard played with a lot of terrible QB’s and still put up great numbers. I think Ellard has a long line infront of him. But lets hope Branch (and Pearson) get in sooner than later.
which one bill would you like to see go in first branch or pearson?
Bill: I think Pearson has a very good chance to be in the special expanded seniors class (10) in 2020.
That is a tough call Paul….I think I would put Branch in first but they should both be in. Who would you put in first Howley or Cliff Harris?
I’m sorry Roberty asked me that question! haha! Who would you put in first?
Bill: If it was my choice Howley would be first as he is currently #1 on my list of all deserving senior candidates. BUT with this special 10 senior candidate class proposed for 2020, it is clear 1st ballot all decade team members will be a priority (as stated by more than one voter), so I suspect Drew Pearson will be the only Cowboys elected in that class. Now that’s simply a predication, not necessarily a preference (although I do agree both Harris and Pearson are deserving). I suspect unfortunately Howley will have to wait longer for 2021 or beyond.
Rice, Moss and Largent sounds OK. LOL Your right hard to be wrong with so many great ones. I was thinking a great possession WR would be a good addition. Who was the best? On that CBS Fantasy game I had Hines Ward and felt good about him in the mix with the deep threats.
Possession WR? Largent was a really good one, though I’d likely opt for Ray Berry as the best ever.
And I agree we’ll likely see at least one Cowboy get in. I’d love for it to be Howley, but both Harris and Pearson were 70s 1st team all decade. My guess is that at least one (likely Pearson) makes it in. If they all three make it, fine and dandy.
I’d pick Berry also.
I’m not looking at All-Decade and only considering players I
know about. Most of these played for really good teams.- lots of SB’s
Chuck Howley
LC Greenwood
Harold Jackson
Cliff Harris
Cliff Branch
Bob Kuechenberg – died last fall
Randy Gradishar
Isiah Robertson – just died in a car crash
Donnie Shell
Roger Craig
2001 – Drew Pearson
Does Jim Marshall deserve HOF for playing 18 years without missing a game?
I think Lee Roy Jordan was great but never hear his name mentioned.
Compared to many other deserving senior candidates, I don’t think Marshall (3x second team all pro) should be elected. And I doubt Jordan ever gets in with only one 1st team all pro selection
No AP is one of the reasons I’m not for Winston Hill.
I guess anyone alive with no AP can pull a Harry Carson and give themselves a chance. :) Harry did get AP from various sporting organizations though. Pro Reference says his career is similar to: Bill Bergey, Clay Matthews, Lee Roy Jordan, Maxie Baughan, Nick Buoniconti*, Dave Robinson*, Mike Stratton, Chris Hanburger*, London Fletcher. Never heard of Stratton. lol
I just thought maybe Marshall because what he did was so extroidinary and he was a really good player for winning teams known for Defense. He would definitely be a surprise pick. lol
Over/under on players from 20s-40 being a part of the centennial class
All depends who serves on the blue ribbon panel to select them (current seniors committee and contributors committee not making choices for 2020) but I would guess 3 players from 20s to 40s will be among 10 senior candidates presented to full hall election committee for vote on enshrinement at meeting day before SB
I thought Winston Hill has 2x first team All pro (listed on his PFR profile)?
My three would be Wistert Slater and Emerson
Dilweg Slater Wisert
Your right Paul. Very much like Carson’s profile who a lot of people don’t think belonged. I don’t think it helps that Namath is remembered for being beat up.
I don’t know what to think about those other AP’s. Can I say Jake Scott is a 5/5 and with his All-Decade snub deserves HOF as much as Drew Pearson? Are we going to really penalize Scott for excelling in the CFL for a year? Scott was a year older when he retired. One was a likable player in the League and one wasn’t. I did real good not to bring Scott until now. LOL
I’m going under on 20’s-40’s with a big zero! Maybe Slater but I doubt it.
I think the blue ribbon panel will be even more focused on pre 1950 candidates than the senior committee has been or would be, so seeing as many as 3 from pre 1949 would not surprise me at all
My prediction is a gut one, Paul’s is an educated one. I’d go with Paul. lol
Its very possible TonyP, but I just think members of the blue ribbon panel will be very considerate of the entire 100 yr history of the league to ensure earlier decades (that have very deserving candidates) will be represented, more so than fans would be and even some members of the seniors committee. Having all or most of all seniors come from one or two decades, 70s and 60s, would be a bad view in terms of celebrating the entire history of the league. Its also very possible this is the last chance for pre 1950s players to get elected so lets hope some are included.
My pre 50s players would be Slater dilweg
wistert lewellen
I don’t think one team is getting 2 players in the senior class of 10, meaning only Dilweg or Lewellen but not both
i can see your logic paul 100% whats our thoughts on barwegen
I believe Dick Barwegan will have a very good chance along with Dilweg. Mike Stratton was an incredible lineback for the Buffalo Bills during the AFL days. I would put him at least on even footing with Harry Carson, and Nick Buoiniconti but not quite as good as Hanburger or Nobis.
Sounds like you support Nobis or just talent? As much as his name comes up from that era maybe he has a shot. Thoughts?
Who from the 80’s and early 90’s y’all like? Always Ottis Anderson.
I like Lester Hayes, I like Mike Kenn the most. Joe Jacoby, Everson Walls and Karl Mecklinburg are also players that I like from the 80’s.
I don’t think we will see more then perhaps 1 senior candidate from the 80s or early 80s and would think Hayes or Jacoby have the upperhand. Or Jimbo Covert-the only first team 80s all decade team member not in (although I think of the three I mentioned his case is the weakest). With 9 decades of history and only 10 senior slots-plus plenty of worthy players from the 60s and 70s, we should not expect every decade represented especially the 80s and 90s.
I also think Nobis will fall short of election with Karras and/or Meador from the 60s all decade team more likely.
I recently revised my predication of the 10 member seniors class of 2020 to:
T Duke Slater CHI
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
FS Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s
But admit with a blue ribbon panel making the nominations to the full voting committee (not the existing senior committee) could open up the discussion for a more varied list of candidates including many who perhaps have not been finalists discussed by recent senior committees.
I feel somewhat confident about LC Greenwood and Randy Gradishar. Just wonder if some player will come out of nowhere like maybe a Harold Carmichael. He was such a freak athlete at his size I think maybe he gets overlooked because his advantage made it look like it came too easy to him. Maybe he should be appreciated more?
Gradishar I fill pretty good about chances, LC not so much especially considering the focus on all decade 1st team and two players from 70s teams not in (Pearson and Harris). I think we will see perhaps much more appreciation for the longer history of the league and pre 1970s era players from the blue ribbon panel then we would get from the usual seniors committee. I think there will be fewer 70s seniors nominated then we might guess and very slim chance of a surprise pick like Carmicheal-why would he get selected over a player in Pearson who’s career overlaps and was 1st team all decade? I think its more likely that we will be surprised by number of pre 1970s seniors selected and perhaps who they are rather than a surprise from 70s. Unfortunately perhaps but LC will continue to be hurt by the large number of Steelers defensive players already in the Hall.
spot on take by paul on lc and gradishar im wondering who is grad’s biggest competition at senior lb
Chuck Howley
Guys from the 80s and 90s who have fallen into the Senior pool I can get behind to varying degrees. Am assuming Randy Gradishar is a 70s guy:
Karl Mecklenburg
Mike Kenn
Lester Hayes
Joe Jacoby
Mark Gastineau
Joe Klecko
Deron Cherry
Nolan Cromwell
Joey Browner
Marvin Powell
Which one gets your highest endorsement bachs
Lester hayes would get my highest endorsement followed by Mike Kenn
In my top 75 list, I’ve got them in order as:
Cherry
Mecklenburg
Gastineau
Klecko
Kenn
Cromwell
Hayes
Browner
Jacoby
Powell
That’s okay for now, at least.
I agree with Bill and maybe Gastineau but don’t support the rest. NT Bob Baumhower 1/5 over Klecko and Smerlas.
Agreed on baumhower
Reminder that the PFHOF Board meets on Friday to discuss and most likely approve proposal for a special 20 member class of 2020 for the NFL 100th anniversary. Proposal is for 5 modern candidates to be elected via usual process and timeline. The 10 seniors+3 contributors+2 coaches will be nominated by a special “blue ribbon panel” who will be presented-along with the 15 modern finalists-at the full selection committee the day before the SB (not idea how they will manage handling 15+15 candidates in an all day meeting that has in past only involved 15+2).
Guessing like in past with seniors/contributors, the full committee will discuss and vote on 15 first which may be a vote on entire 15 member ballot as whole and not individuals (so as to avoid electing less than the intended 15), then proceed with presentation, discussion and voting on 15 finalists down to the eventual 5 modern candidates elected as per norm.
And no idea how 2020 enshrinement event will manage presentations of 20 HOFers instead of usual 8-in an event that already runs 3+ hrs! Also possible final proposal is modified by the Board. If proposal passes there will be no role, hence no selection of 2020 finalists, by the existing senior and contributor committees in mid August.
Decision may come out publicly on Friday or over the weekend during 2019 enshrinement events, but Hall in past has also delayed such announcements so would be no surprise that 2020 plans may not be made public until next week or later, but would expect news in coming weeks at the latest.
RIP Nick Buoniconti- A fierce undersized LB on some great Dolphins teams. In HOF for both Patriots and Dolphins.
Apparently PFHOF BOT today has approved a special NFL 100 anniversary class of 2020 (“20 in 20”) consisting of 5 moderns, 10 seniors, 3 contributors and 2 coaches, look for official announcement from Hall (with news on selection process and timeline?) later today.
Here are the details: (modern candidate process and timeline remains same as usual):
“The determination of the Seniors, Contributors and Coaches Finalists will run parallel to the Modern-Era player selection process. The Hall will assemble a special 25-person Centennial “Blue-Ribbon” panel who will review the backlog of deserving Seniors, Coaches and Contributors. The Blue-Ribbon Panel will be comprised of Hall of Fame Selectors, Pro Football Hall of Famers, media members, football historians and industry experts.
A tentative timeline for the election process by the Blue-Ribbon panel includes the compilation of a comprehensive list of nominated Seniors, Contributors and Coaches by no later than September. A reduction vote by the panel to 20 Seniors, 10 Contributors and 8 Coaches will be announced in the fall.
The special panel will then meet in person to vote for 10 Seniors, 3 Contributors and 2 Coaches. The final slate of 15 will be voted on as one singular unit by the Hall’s Selection Committee when the group meets on “Selection Saturday.” The Centennial slate will need to receive a minimum positive vote of 80 percent to earn election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
The Centennial Class will be formally enshrined into the Pro Football Hall of Fame during the annual Enshrinement Ceremony and the Centennial Celebration in Canton in September 2020.”
Wondering if two separate enshrinement ceremonies in 2020, as usual in August for five moderns and second for fifteen others in Canton during league 100th anniversary in September???
wondering the same thing paul
15 special member class to be enshrined at NFL 100th anniversary event at Hall on September 17, 2020, 5 moderns at the annual August event as per usual
I hope the majority of the senior class will be players up there in their years. They deserve it.
Agreed corey
RIP cliff branch
Oh, no. R.I.P.
This is why the expanded class is necessary. What a shame that Cliff Branch won’t be alive when he’s eventually indicted. Too many are on the outside looking in, and not everybody gets to see it.
A lot of wrongs have been corrected with the senior pool in recent memory, but not enough.
dont you mean inducted corey
Yes. That’s embarrassing. Autocorrect does it again.
Tale of the tape between 5 senior wr’s
Receptions
Harold Carmichael 590
Harold Jackson 576
Billy Howton 503
Cliff Branch 501
Del Shofner 349
Yds
Harold Jackson 10372
Harold Carmichael 8985
Cliff Branch 8685
Billy Howton 8459
Del Shofner 6470
TD’s
Harold Carmichael 79
Harold Jackson 76
Cliff Branch 67
Billy Howton 61
Del Shofner 51
I don’t think this tells the whole story.
Howton set the career receiving mark in his day.
Shofner had a shorter career and still had a 5/5, All Decade Profile.
Jackson led a whole decade in receptions, yards and touchdowns.
I’d put Howton and Shofner at the top due to age, then a coin flip between Branch and Jackson, then Carmichael.
That’s a good point corey
Thanks. I’m excited for who will get nominated.
Willing to predict the only WR nominated for the special class of ten seniors in 2020 will be first team all decade WR Drew Pearson
Pearson would be a vastly underwhelming choice compared to four of the five Robert listed off. I could get on board, possibly with Pearson over Carmichael. The others are definitely above Pearson in my book.
Think of how much good could be done with these expanded senior nominations.
You could nominate some overdue offensive linemen: Wistert, Budde, Schafrath, Kunz, Sweeney, even Niland would be a choice I could live with.
You could nominate at least of the four receivers who already should’ve been in – Howton, Shofner, Branch, Jackson.
You could nominate one of the three linebackers whose omissions are an injustice – Howley, Baughan, Gradishar.
You could also nominate some worthy DBs – Meador, Dillon, Patton, Harris, followed by others like Boyd, Cherry and Browner.
You’ve got all these people, and any one of them would range from fine choices to Grade A, top of the line choices. Don’t waste a slot on Drew Pearson.
just for curiosity should i add pearsons stats to that list i posted corey
Electing a first team all decade player in Pearson is not wasting a slot
“Think of how much good could be done with these expanded senior nominations. ”
And it will be, 10 very deserving senior candidates are getting in one election, that is great news for clearing out the very deep pool and frankly any combination of 10, especially if focus includes first team all decade players, those with multiple all pro selections. No matter how it plays out, including if Drew Pearson is included, it will be a huge jump forward for senior candidates and clear the deck for many others in future years. Important not to forget we have wanted more seniors elected, proposed a large class, and also remember senior elections will continue in 2021 and beyond at 1 or 2 a year so still plenty of time to others in, the ten in 2020 is not the end only a major leap forward. I have my favs and predictions but with a list of perhaps 50 deserving senior candidates, any 10 would be a great move, for me especially if among my top 25.
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
2. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
3. OT Winston Hill NYJ 6/8/60s
4. T Duke Slater CHI
5. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s
6. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
7. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
8. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s
9. F Mac Speedie CLEV 6/2/40s
10. WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
11. CB Lester Hayes OAK 1(5)/5/80s
12. LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7
13. FS Cliff Harris DAL 4(1)/6/70s
14. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s
15. LB Larry Grantham NYJ 5(5)/60s
16. OL Dick Schafrath CLEV 4/6
17. FB Pat Harder CHI/DET 3(3)/2/MVP/40s
18. DT Alex Karras DET 4(5)/4 60s
19. RB Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s
20. LB Karl Meckenburg 4/6
21. DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4
22. WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4
23. OL Walt Sweeney SAN 2(4)/9/60s
24. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s
25. QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
When comparing Pearson to the players on my list, I would find him an underwhelming choice.
Being First Team All Decade is nice, but so was Larry Morris. I know I’ve touched up on All Decade in the past, but something is wrong where Larry Morris was an All Decade selection but Maxie Baughan and Harold Jackson weren’t.
agreed corey maxie baughan> Larry Morris
Below is why Pearson is first team all decade, selection is not made simply on those with the largest decade stats but their impact, and I agree that those teams are not perfect but since all but seven 1st team all decade players are in the Hall it holds weight with voters. The debate here, and it is a worthy one, is how to consider a players impact beyond the numbers, did Branch (who I support for the Hall) or Jackson have game winning TDs in three high profile games, including two playoff wins? Did any other player, especially WR, have three plays selected among top 75 of all time in 1994? If the Hall is just about numbers why not just pick the top 20 in career stats (or top 10 in their decade) at their position and elect them, who needs voting?
“Pearson helped the Cowboys to three Super Bowl appearances and a victory in Super Bowl XII in 1978. He also scored a touchdown in Super Bowl X. Pearson was known as “Mr. Clutch” for his numerous clutch catches in game-winning situations, especially the “Hail Mary” reception from Roger Staubach that sealed the victory in a 1975 playoff game, one of the most famous plays in NFL history. He also caught the game-sealing touchdown in 1973 playoff game against the Los Angeles Rams and the game-winning touchdown pass from reserve quarterback Clint Longley in the 1974 Thanksgiving game against the Washington Redskins. All three of those plays were named among the Top 75 plays in NFL history by NFL Films in 1994. In addition in the 1980 playoff game at Atlanta, Pearson’s clutch receptions helped win that game in a comeback by the Cowboys.”
You make a convincing argument Paul therefore Pearson is one of the 10 I endorse
It’s been a while since I have commented on this site. As a Jets fan I like seeing people listing Jets who aren’t it that should be in. I have always thought they have been underrepresented. Joe Klecko, Mark Gastineau, Winston Hill, Marvin Powell, and Larry Grantham all have arguably HOF careers. Another I think had a borderline HOF career was Art Powell, who was mostly a Raider,but he did have some very good seasons with the Titans/Jets. I hope 1 of those names make the 10 for this special class.
I wouldn’t mind if Joe Klecko was one of the ten. He was one of those players who looked like a Hall of Famer when you saw him play. Very versatile and was a pro Bowler at multiple positions along the line. Larry Grantham would be my second choice as a JET, and I see him as one of the seniors that will benefit after so many seniors get in, on the next go around.
Not so sure a player from 1980s gets in special class of ten, but if one were to thinking it would be Roger Craig or Lester Hayes. I think Klecko is deserving and some day will get in (I actually think he still benefits greatly with special class as it will remove 10 others from the pool), but doubt he will be at the top of mind or priorities of those making the selections.
I agree with your comments Paul. I think they may go high profile which would include these players: Drew Pearson, Bob Kuechenberg, Cliff Branch, Randy Gradishar “Orange Crush”, LC Greenwood, Lester Hayes and Roger Craig. I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I know some of y’all would cringe at ignoring older players as it would only leave two spots.
Why do I hear people talking about a special class of 20 players? Howie Long did it yesterday.
I didn’t see Larry Grantham play so I’m at a disadvantage. What sticks out to me is he gained most of his accolades from 1960-65 in an immature AFL. Might some question the quality of the League? Could that be holding him back?
The special class of 20 in 2020 consists of 5 modern, 10 seniors, 3 contributors and 2 coaches but all too often refer to it as a class of 20 without understanding the various categories and which potential candidates would fit in where .
And as to the 10 seniors I think many are going to surprised at the number of lesser known candidates who played pre 1970s, there is a tendency to point out all the deserving 70s and 80s players and no doubt some will be included but smaller number that many may be aware of
excellent points paul what lesser known pre 1970s name what are you thinking about
How long do we have to debate that before we know? lol
Lesser known to public and most in media, including Duke Slater, Dilweg, Winsert, basically anyone before 1950
Sounds like we might know senior semi finalist list by November and finalists in January, same timeline as moderns age each election cycle
which one would get your endorsement
Jim Benton 288 4801 45
Ken Kavanaugh 162 3626 50
Mac Speedie 349 5602 33
Interesting debate on social media about whether Andrew Luck is a PFHOFer. Personally I don’t see the level of career accomplishments that would warrant his election currently (well if he stayed retired and eligible in 5 yrs).
id have to agree with paul 100%
Yup, agreed with Paul on this one. Career’s too short and not enough peak, plus no titles won. He’s kind of like Bert Jones with less good peak highs, though arguably more consistency. And I don’t see Jones as a HoFer, sorry to say.
Too bad. Like Archie Manning, he might have thrived under better circumstances.
Hey, bachslunch. I just popped into the Talk of Fame site for the first time in a year and you should know that your name was mentioned by Clark Judge as one that they’ve missed seeing. Apparently some of the regulars stopped showing up around the time they revamped the site.
While news of the expanded class is welcome, I won’t get my hopes up that they’ll pick the right people until they actually do it. I lost confidence in the senior committee years ago though so maybe this new panel will shake things up in the right way.
Hey, bachslunch. I just popped into the Talk of Fame site for the first time in a year and you should know that your name was mentioned by Clark Judge as one that they’ve missed seeing. Apparently some of the regulars stopped showing up around the time they revamped the site.
Well that just took a week to drop, lol.
Long time no hear, Rasputin! Glad to know you’re still around.
I found the revamped ToF site hard to maneuver around and navigate, more so than the old one, so I stopped participating there. It’s a great site content-wise, though, and I really have a lot of respect for Clark (as well as Ron and Rick). Clark seems especially pleasant and approachable, though. Maybe I’ll get back over there if I feel more at home with the site.
Re the expanded class, I really hope they put in all deserving guys. But who knows? At worst, they should be able to push a number of possibilities off the table and in, which is a good thing. Clear the decks some more. I’m all for it.
Who would you rather see go in with an expanded class roger brown or Alex karras
Preliminary list of modern candidates for class of 2020 to be announced on NFL Network this Thursday 1-2pm (guess they are calling them “contenders” now ???)
I think both Roger Brown and Alex Karras should be in the Hall of Fame. I guess if I had to choose , it would be Roger Brown.
Alex Karras has an excellent chance of being among the 10 seniors nominated for class of 2020
I do think that the blue ribbon panel will do a much better job then the seniors committee has done over the last decade (excepting that Kramer and Robinson were great picks, but then again their long waits was also created by that same committee). My guess is that the panel will also do a better job of finally electing more pre 1960 deserving candidates then the committee would have done. Sure I have my favs for the 10 seniors but frankly just seeing any mix of seniors finally get in is a huge improvement and step forward, plus clears deck for others in coming elections.
10 id like to see
Wistert Slater Howley Karras Greenwood Dilweg Ken Anderson Eddie Meador Drew Pearson Bob Kuechenberg (because the super bowl is in miami) thoughts
Bachslunch, here’s the page link of that exchange if you’re interested.
https://mavensports.io/talkoffame/nfl/here-s-one-way-to-avoid-a-potential-pothole-for-the-hall-s-centennial-class-LkMeUJxprk6bKO0YOnQssA/
Robert, while a couple of my names might be different (maybe Cliff Harris, Mac Speedie, Maxie Baughan, or Tommy Nobis instead of Greenwood or Slater) that’s a solid list and I’d be ecstatic if they went with that.
Thanks for the feedback rasputin I’d put maxie over Slater and Harris over Greenwood
Bobby Dillon, another elderly Senior, passed away recently. He was 89:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/30/sports/football/bobby-dillon-dead.html
That’s a pretty good list, although personally I would replace Greenwood with Baughan and Nobis over Kuechenberg. Five from the 70s/80s out of total of ten, seems high, thinking would be fewer, and with others from 50s/60s. I don’t think Harris, Howley and Pearson – 3 from same team – are getting in, may just end up one with Pearson my guess.
second 10 list ready to critique
1.Ken Anderson
2.Maxie Baughan
3.Bobby Dillon
4.Lavvie Dilweg
5.L.C. Greenwood
6.Chuck Howley
7.Billy Howton
8.Alex Karras
9.Tommy Nobis
10.Al Wistert
Next 5 would be Gradishar Howton Slater Speedie Sweeney
Of course as usual I’m not making predictions but naming the players I think are most deserving.
My 25 Semifinalists: Herschel Walker, *Edgerrin James, *Issac Bruce, *Torry Holt,*Hines Ward, *Reggie Wayne,*Tony Boselli, *Alan Faneca, *Steve Hutchinson, Chris HInton, Steve Wisniewski, Simeon Rice, *Richard Seymour, Leslie O’Neal,Clay Matthews, *Zach Thomas,*Patrick Willis,Cornelius Bennett, Sam Mills, Albert Lewis, *Steve Atwater,*Ronde Barber,*John Lynch,*Tory Polamalu, Darren Woodson,
Those who could also make it: Donovan McNabb,Shaun Alexander,Corey Dillon,Priest Holmes,Ricky Watters, Henry Ellard,Lomas Brown,Richmond Webb,John Abraham, Lance Briggs,Jessie Tuggle,Eric Allen,LeRoy Butler,Troy VIncent,Steve Tasker.
It is actually a pretty deep ballot. Those who I put a star (*) next to their names are locks. They seem like main stays for the next 3-5 years, if not longer. I don’t consider my 25 to be exactly who will make it that far. That’s why I mentioned a plethora of others. It seems as if there are some “surprises” each year. My dark horse is McNabb among those who didn’t make my final 25. Voters might put him through for parity purposes, as it might be a defensive heavy Semis.
Brad, good list.
Best as I can tell, this is Chris Hinton’s final regularly eligible year. And Nick Lowery runs out of eligibility next year.
I think Carl Banks and Wilbur Marshall are also in their final year of eligibility
For whats it worth…and it isn’t much. Its Johnny Bailey’s last year as well!
With small class of 1st time eligible players (and coaches removed from modern category), likely to see some new names and surprises, so here is my prediction (best I usually due is 22 or so correct, challenge anyone to do better as always a few new ones pop up):
Shaun Alexander
Steve Atwater
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
LeRoy Butler
Alan Faneca
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Steve Hutchinson
Edgerrin James
John Lynch
Clay Matthews Jr
Sam Mills
Leslie O’Neal
Troy Polamalu
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Neil Smith
Zack Thomas
Hines Ward
Reggie Wayne
Richard Webb
Patrick Willis
Darren Woodson
The list includes 122 players eligible to be selected to next year’s class. The list will be whittled down to 25 in November and to 15 finalists in January. The finalists will then be presented to the full 48-member Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee during its annual meeting on “Selection Saturday,” the day before Super Bowl LIV.
Highlighted on Thursday’s list are eight first-time candidates: pass rusher John Abraham, linebacker Lance Briggs, returner/receiver Josh Cribbs, running back Maurice Jones-Drew, safety Troy Polamalu, defensive end Justin Smith, wide receiver Reggie Wayne and linebacker Patrick Willis.
This year’s compilation includes 63 offensive players, 43 defensive players and 16 special teamers.
Here is the full slate of nominees and you can vote for your favorite candidates at http://www.nfl.com/HOFvote:
QUARTERBACK — Randall Cunningham, Jake Delhomme, Boomer Esiason, Jeff Garcia, Jeff Hostetler, Dave Krieg, Donovan McNabb
RUNNING BACKS — Shaun Alexander, Mike Alstott, Tiki Barber, Earnest Byner, Larry Centers, Corey Dillon, Eddie George, Priest Holmes, Edgerrin James, Daryl Johnston, Thomas Jones, Maurice Jones-Drew, Eric Metcalf, Lorenzo Neal, Clinton Portis, Fred Taylor, Herschel Walker, Chris Warren, Ricky Watters
WIDE RECEIVERS — Isaac Bruce, Gary Clark, Donald Driver, Henry Ellard, Torry Holt, Chad Johnson, Derrick Mason, Muhsin Muhammad, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, Hines Ward, Reggie Wayne
TIGHT ENDS — Dallas Clark, Ben Coates, Keith Jackson, Brent Jones, Jeremy Shockey, Wesley Walls
OFFENSIVE LINEMEN — Willie Anderson, Matt Birk, Tony Boselli, Lomas Brown, Ray Donaldson, Alan Faneca, Kevin Gogan, Jordan Gross, Chris Hinton, Kent Hull, Steve Hutchinson, Lincoln Kennedy, Olin Kreutz, Chris Samuels, Jeff Saturday, Brian Waters, Richmond Webb, Erik Williams, Steve Wisniewski
DEFENSIVE LINEMEN — John Abraham, La’Roi Glover, Casey Hampton, Chester McGlockton, Leslie O’Neal, Simeon Rice, Richard Seymour, Justin Smith, Neil Smith, Greg Townsend, Bryant Young
LINEBACKERS — Carl Banks, Cornelius Bennett, Lance Briggs, Tedy Bruschi, James Farrior, London Fletcher, Seth Joyner, Wilber Marshall, Clay Matthews, Willie McGinest, Sam Mills, Chris Spielman, Takeo Spikes, Darryl Talley, Zach Thomas, Jessie Tuggle, Patrick Willis
DEFENSIVE BACKS — Eric Allen, Steve Atwater, Ronde Barber, LeRoy Butler, Nick Collins, Merton Hanks, Rodney Harrison, Albert Lewis, John Lynch, Terry McDaniel, Tim McDonald, Troy Polamalu, Bob Sanders, Troy Vincent, Darren Woodson
PUNTERS/KICKERS — K David Akers, K Gary Anderson, K Jason Elam, P Jeff Feagles, K Jason Hanson, P Sean Landeta, K Ryan Longwell, K Nick Lowery, P Reggie Roby, P Rohn Stark, P Matt Turk
SPECIAL TEAMS — Johnny Bailey, Josh Cribbs, Mel Gray, Brian Mitchell, Steve Tasker
Who do you think out of these players should be Canton bound?
Reggie Roby wore a watch for his whole career. lol I haven’t heard brought up in OBJ discussion.
Great list of nominees this time around, and certainly a lot more players than usual. I am especially happy to see Boomer Esiason on the list in addition to Caotes, Jackson and Shockey at TE. Not as many misses on the list compares to previous years, but I would still call out the following guys:
QB: Rich Gannon, Srew Bkedsoe
RB: Jamal Lewis
WR: Andre Rison, Irving Fryar, Herman Moore
TE: Jay Novacek (final year of eligibility), Wesley Walls
OL: Nate Newton, Tom Nalen, Jim Lachey (final year), Bart Oates (final year), Bruce Armstrong, Ruben Brown
DL: Michael Dean Perry, Trevor Pryce, Ray Childress
LB: Pat Swilling, Greg Lloyd, Joey Porter
DB: Carnell Lake, Darren Sharper (obvious why he isn’t there)
ST: Todd Sauerbrun, Rich Camarillo, Matt Stover, Eric Metcalf, Bill Bates
Hard to nitpick though, as I don’t think any of the misses had a realistic shot at being semifinalists. With coaches now off the list and Mecklenburg/Kenn now in the senior pool, there will be a lot of slots open for competition on the semi list. Guys like McNabb, Coates, Webb, Neil Smith, Bennett, Allen and Gary Anderson seem like potential first time semifinalists to me.
BSLO- Good list, but actuallu Eric Metcalf is on the list as a RB. The list does seem expanded and I would list these guys as must for the prelim list although not necessarily HOF material
1. Drew Bledsoe QB
2, Hreman Moore WR
3. Irving Fryar WR
4. Jay Novacek TE
5. Nate Newton G
6. Bruce Armstrong T
7. Pat Swilling LB
8. Michael Dean Perry NT
9. Tom Nalen C
10. Mark Stepnoski C
Wrote up a prediction for Semi-finalists, Finalists, and elected. Here’s my guess:
25: Kames, Bruce, Holt, Ward, Wayne, Boselli, Faneca, Hinton, Hutchinson, Abraham, O’Neal, Rice, Seymour, Young, Matthews, Mills, Thomas, Willis, Atwater, Barber, Butler, Lewis, Lynch, Polamalu, Woodson.
15: James, Bruce, Holt, Boselli, Faneca, Hinton, Hutchinson, Seymour, Mills, Willis, Atwater, Barber, Butler, Lynch, Polamalu
Elected: James, Boselli, Faneca, Atwater, Polamalu.
Bachs out of curiosity who are your top contrib and coach nominees
Top coach candidates: Clark Shaughnessy, Buddy Parker.
Top contributor candidates: Sabol, Young, McNally.
id have to agree 100% on the coaches and contributors people forget clark shaughnessys contributions
Guess our hosts have abandoned this site and not bothering to create a class of 2020 topic???
I think this website’s hosts have forgotten and abandoned us
Ben Roethlisberger done for the season. Wouldn’t be shocked if he called it a career. That’ll make him eligible for HOF in 2025. There will be a lot of names off the ballot by then. Could he be a first ballot HOFer? I think so.
I’d have to agree with paul
I watched the Sunday night game against the Patriots. He seemed so uninterested this year. More than likely a HOFamer. I wouldn’t be shocked if he waited a year or two.
As to BenR a wait of a 1-2 yrs not unreasonable, will depend on others on ballot especially big name players especially QBs. Is this last year for Brees, how much longer for Brady? Could be last year for Eli (although he will certainly have a longer wait for election) what about Rivers? Very possible all five of these QBs appear on ballot within few years of each other.
Hey guys…we haven’t forgotten or abandoned you–at least not intentionally. Unfortunately, the reality of having a couple kids in youth sports, combined with my brother having younger kids, means we’ve had a lot less time to follow HOF stuff over the last couple years–and it gets covered so much that other than you guys the regulars, we don’t see a ton of traffic to the site.
We are working on a 2020 HOF post, though–we’ll try to get it published this week…apologies for the delay.
thanks tony, and I get the busy life issues, just looks like there are 10-12 regulars here, and so updating with a 2020 post-especially given the major changes in the election process for next year, would be timely and useful and continue to draw regulars and perhaps a few others. I have not found other blogs or websites (that are public and easy to join and access) that focus on the Hall elections. Some debate and regular posters appear on Twitter but this is a valued community and forum so you hosting remains valued and appreciated.
Sorry Tony, nothing against you personally you seem like a nice guy but the busy with life excuse is really weak. With even a little passion for having the website one would expect more than an article every 6 or 7 months and only after we shame you for it. IMO none of your regulars, which I’m amazed you still have, care about weekly NFL predictions. Seems like a little self indulgence on you and Andy’s part when you do so little else. Not saying it doesn’t take effort but you can get predictions every where you look. Most of us want to talk HOF and I for one like to talk about changes to the game and a few current stories. Paul seems very knowledgeable and I remember he offered to write some articles. If you were serious about the website you should of let him do that. Not sure he is still willing? Someone should take up the slack if you’re going to keep the site going. This place needs a shot energy! Sincerely Yours, Anthony Parslow
I would be happy to contribute fresh posts if our hosts would welcome the assistance
Thanks Paul, I just sent you an email.
@TonyP – You’ve obviously got every right to your opinion on my reasons for not posting more here, and I’m not going to block anyone for expressing them (so long as they’re not offensive, personal attacks, etc). While you may thnk it’s a weak excuse, I am going to take time with my wife & kids, and working on my business, over producing content for this site every single time–unless somehow this site turned into something that actually produced enough revenue that it could start to become something of a job. There’s been no signs of that yet–in fact, we’ve lost money keeping it live through the years, trying some new things to generate content.
Maybe the picks & bets posts are a bit self indulgent–but they’re also pretty easy for us to produce, and the whole site is pretty self indulgent. It was never intended to be a HOF only site–we stumbled into it when I wrote a post when upset that Randall McDaniel was snubbed, and ended up doing a prediction post. The first couple years we ended up getting spikes in traffic around the announcement–but as the HOF became a bigger and bigger deal, and more and more people started writing about it, those spikes dwindled. When we started producing HOF content, I knew next to nothing about the process–my picks were pure speculation. Now today…I know slightly more–but they’re still largely pure speculation.
Andy and I have had many talks over the last few years about whether to continue with ZB, and what it should be if we do. We’ve talked about turning it (or at least the HOF part) into more of a forum site, rather than a blog–although I’m not sure if that would attract any more traffic. but would give you guys more control over producing threads you want to see.
In the meantime, we’re not planning on shutting the site down anytime soon, and we’ll do our best to start producing some more content–we’ve discussed a handful of players that are probably worthy of their own posts, based on recent events in the league–and it sounds like Paul may be producing some articles as well (if anyone else wants in, just let me know–tony(at)zoneblitz.com). But unfortunately I make no promises that we’re going to start producing significant content beyond what we do today, at least in the near term. If that doesn’t work for you…
Tony, it wasn’t meant to be a personal attack on you or Andy just my honest opinion trying to put myself in your place. Keeping it 100 to a fault I suppose. lol I do understand months go by very fast when there are other responsibilities. Especially if illness is involved maybe you’ve been dealing with that? That said, I would make a point of getting something out on the site at least every 3rd month. I don’t think this group expects much more, I know I don’t in the offseason. The passion is clearly here as we carry on discussions without new topics. I guess it’s the fact we add comment after comment on the same story and it feels like the site has been abandoned. That’s my last comment on the subject. God’s peace to all! Anthony
I have exchanged emails with Tony and Andy and expressed my willingness to start some new posts, going to work on my first one this weekend to send them to post up on the Class of 2020 election process. Seems to me that there is a topic worth having fresh new post for as there is enough news and activity on that topic now and in the coming months, specially with all the special changes this year, to keep us busy through to election results in February 2020. May also pitch in a few other Hall related topics, or save those until the PFHOF “off season” from Feb-August. Glad to take ideas from others and thanks to Tony and Andy for letting pitch in. At least like to see perhaps 4-5 new topics each year, especially at the key steps and news throughout election cycle, if anything to avoid single topic gathering 100s of posts.
That’s great Paul! Thank you, and Andy and Tony for allowing. A couple obvious stories: one going into the NFL Draft who we think are the best college player prospects available. and what Pro Team should get who especially QB and can reflect on past Draft results including this Draft aftermath. That’s always a good discussion for about a month. Another is when training camp starts a couple months later, who we think will be the improved NFL Teams through the Draft and trades and prediction of upcoming season finish. Also possibly could pick one rule change if controversial to talk about and contrast today’s game to the past. Good for a few arguments on toughness of the game. This year the pass interference replay has been a disaster! All we need are a several good opinion stories to keep some interest in slow months than up to readers to expand conversation. Need to promote Zoneblitz when ever we go to other sites as a good place for conversation. I know you have everything HOF topic covered. :)
Maybe a tribute to former NFL great – very good players lost during the year ?
Antonio Brown released by the Patriots. He is a HOFer, but if he joins another team this year, that’ll make 4 teams in 2 years. That could really hurt his chances for a quick induction.
I was thinking the same thing Brad. Actually 3 teams in 6 months so far. 11 days with premier organization in NFL is a really bad look. If he goes out looking like a nut job maybe not real long if he can rehabilitate image. if he turns out to be a sexual offender than could a real long time.
He just tweeted saying he won’t play anymore. We will see but if he does retire, he’ll be eligible in 2025.
fresh new topic posted here….
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2019/09/25/selecting-the-class-of-2020/
I still can’t believe Asante Samuel isn’t on this list of over 120 eligible players ! The guy did everything but intercept Eli Manning in the SB. Will he continue to be punished for not making that interception ? The guy has over 50, not to mention postseason, interceptions. He deserves to be on this list.
Sorry guys, posted in the wrong thread about Samuel being on the preliminary HOF list…just keeping this great thread alive. Thanks Andy, Paul, Anthony and Tony !!