139 Comments

1. Brian wolf on February 6, 2025 at 11:18 pm

   Due to the voting … Witten has no chance getting in first ballot next year, but I knew that. Happy for the inducted players but this was kinda ridiculous.

   Time to end the contributor category. Classes need at least six players and/or coaches.

   Porter had a chance to see 9 seniors get elected between 2023-2025. Instead it was 6 and two were popular defensive tackles from heavy media centers. Where will senior voting go from here?

2. Andy p on February 6, 2025 at 11:54 pm

   My thoughts

   I got 3/4

   I expected a class of 8 instead we got a class of 4

   I knew this new process wouldn’t work

   I was right when I said Ralph Hay wouldn’t be elected and I can’t believe Maxie Baughan wasn’t elected either Rick Gosselin was right the selection committee has gotten younger not older I just hope this doesn’t happen to Clint Murchison and you know how much I would hate for to happen

   I can’t believe Jim Tyrer didn’t make it also also granted what he did was wrong but he was suffering from CTE

   I’m shocked Mike Holmgren didn’t make it

   I’m glad Sterling Sharpe can join his brother in Canton

   I’m surprised Eric Allen made it but I’m still happy for him

   The wide receiver logjam is now going to be bigger with Larry Fitzgerald coming in 2026

   I was right when I said this could be a clean up and we won’t see any first ballot Hall of Famers

   I’m starting to have seconds thoughts about going to Canton in 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction if this is the way it’s going to be from now on I don’t like it

   I can’t believe the voters weren’t consulted

   I bet Jim Porter’s wife and daughters are furious with him because of this

   If this doesn’t make the voters complain to Jim Porter I don’t what does

   We should all bombard the Pro Football Hall of Fame with emails asking them to change the process

3. Andy p on February 6, 2025 at 11:57 pm

   This is all Deion Sanders fault if hadn’t sounded off on the Pro Football Hall of Fame none of this would have happened

4. Brian wolf on February 7, 2025 at 5:37 am

   It wasnt Sanders fault. There were negative pundits going back to the Centennial Class. I cynically said at that time that putting in more seniors was a trade-off to get Tagliabue and Kraft elected and Kraft still cant make it.

   Too many players simply fell through the cracks and rather than correcting wrongs, the HOF decided to add more non-players/coaches. Recentism and media campaigns on the part of voters and advocates, didnt help the matter, which is why we get yesterdays result.

   I predict we will see at least two more small classes before they change the procedures for election again. Lets face it, controversy brings more media attention for the HOF, who milk it for all its worth with and for television.

   In a strange way, Eric Allen getting elected made it seem like two seniors getting elected because his eligibility was closing fast but that didnt help a deserving, Maxie Baughan.

5. Jeff on February 7, 2025 at 9:13 am

   It’s a strong class – all four deserving, just a missed opportunity. I though Woodson had a better chance than Eric Allen but maybe it was a case of who’s closer to the senior abyss. Good thinking, if so. If these rules stay in place, the logjams are going to pile up, the senior pool is going to get much larger and we’re going to see a lot of really deserving players fail to get in.

   I think the fact that Holmgren didn’t make it is probably a head-scratcher for a lot of voters. Personally, I think he’s deserving but I wouldnt be heartbroken if he never made it – I feel like they’ve watered down the coaching wing a bit. That said, it seemed like a lot of voters viewed him as a total lock, and pretty much a rubber stamp. Maybe they didn’t quite understand the impact of the rule change (and I hope they loudly complain about it).

6. Paul on February 7, 2025 at 9:43 am

   Congrats to all 4 – its a great honor and all are deserving, but smallest class since 2005 is only going to make it harder for others on current ballot, and when we add 2-3 more likely 1st ballot each of the next three years-the math of getting even from remaining 2025 finalist to eventual election just got a lot harder plus attempt thoughts of seeing players like Webb and Watters-running out of time as moderns-getting from semi-finalist to finalist next few years-forget it.

   Just look at potential 2026 modern semi-finalists to see how hard the math is…lets say all 22 from 2025 return, then we add Brees,Fitz,Rivers,Witten,Gore, Pouncy..that would equal 29 semi-finalists in 2026, sure we could and likely will get ties but still thats horrible math for the chances for many on that list.. And if we go one step further and look at potential final 15 for 2026..12 return leaving only 3 slots for those 6 new first ballot (and there are no ties allowed at 115 finalist stage)-good luck there, not saying all 6 are new finalists but enough will be to kick out a returning 2025 finalist.

   I do think the Board over corrected (and yes was not just Deion but he was the most profile with repeated calls to reduce class sizes, so yea I have no problem calling him our for that)

   And what I am reading from some voters is anger and definite look to pressure Hall Board to at least increase min of moderns to 4, perhaps some but less to increase others from 1 min to 2 min-but will have to wait and see. And publicly voters are going to be careful not to go to hard on the Hall.

   And thanks again for all this discussion, all your great comments and inputs to the board here over the last year as we prepared for 2025 election. Lets take a few more days on here to process all the results and consider implications for 2026, and then like the Spring forecasting Groundhogs of last weekend, we can return to our hibernation during our spring/summer offseason only to stick our heads back up in September to start it all over again!

7. Paul on February 7, 2025 at 11:53 am

   and ponder this…. here is just one fictional timeline of how 3 moderns per year vs 4 per year could look 2026-2028 (note one can move some around, debate order, add others etc…. none of these are intended as true predictions..as only point here is look at the logjam continuing with 3 per year creates)..and one could certainly also model what continuing with 5 moderns per year would have done…waits for non 1st ballot locks that may have been 3-5+ years now looking more like 7+

   Future elections scenarios 2026-29

   If stays at min 3 modern per year

   2026 Brees/Fitz/LukeK

   2027 Gronk/AP/Holt

   2028 Brady/Watt/Woodson

   2029 Donald/JKelce/BenR

   If changes to min 4 modern per year

   2026 Brees/Fitz/LukeK/AdamV

   2027 Gronk/AP/Holt/WAnderson

   2028 Brady/Watt/Woodson/Yanda

   2029 Donald/JKelce/BenR/Sherman

8. Brian wolf on February 7, 2025 at 12:25 pm

   Good job Paul … they are committing to cinch players, not queues for now. Yet you cant let players like Witten, Big Ben, Gore, Thomas, etc sit for long …

9. Paul on February 7, 2025 at 12:45 pm

   yea but 3 a year (and even if Hall amends to min 4 modern per year-which I suspect they will eventually agree to), those you name Brian are going to wait longer… would have been 3-5 years, now more likely 7+..just a reality those of interested in Hall and advocate for candidates need to adjust to..and the chances for the likes of Webb, Watters etc…current/recent additions to semi-finalists (and others running out of time and need to get to that stage as start)-are doomed to senior pool. heck Woodson is in the final 10 queue again this election but with 7 others-instead of 5, has three years left as modern and going to be real tight for voters to get him in, even though I suspect like EAllen they are are of his timeline and would look to push him through by 2028

10. justin on February 7, 2025 at 2:32 pm

    Paul: Well said about taking some time and writing our thoughts. As I’ve done in past years, I’ll be writing a summary of my thoughts on the whole year soon, but not today. Right now, I’ll just note that I love the four person class–all wonderful additions to the HOF. But, there are now at least two “missing” HOFers amount Kuechly, Vinatieri, Holt, and Anderson (my guesses are Vinatieri and Holt, but it could honestly be any of the four). The Hall should admit its mistake and then expand the next two classes to have a minimum of six moderns to make up for these lost slots and then revert back to five going forward. I’ll explain and elaborate on my thinking and proposal soon as I have a compromise in mind that should make both “small hall” and “large hall” camps happy. Just need to think it through a little more.

11. Brian wolf on February 7, 2025 at 5:09 pm

    We will see Paul … like Justin said, they will revert back to five moderns sooner rather than later. I feel by the time Brady is inducted.

12. Boknows on February 7, 2025 at 5:47 pm

    They need to admit this mistake right now and revert back next year.

13. Andy p on February 7, 2025 at 7:25 pm

    Boknows totally

14. Andy p on February 7, 2025 at 7:27 pm

    Does anyone else agree with me we need to bombard the Pro Football Hall of Fame with emails asking them to change the process

15. Boknows on February 7, 2025 at 11:21 pm

    How about 15 down to 8 then a ballot to choose 5 with the top 4/5 gaining election regardless of vote totals. Let’s be honest. Anyone in the Top 10 has historically been elected eventually.

    Same for Seniors and coaches etc. Top 2 or 3 from 5 should be automatically elected.

    They’ve created these new committees and out of all three elected just one candidate. What a waste of time. These committees have already carefully selected their candidates as worthy.

    One thing also is much smaller classes will mean smaller crowds and that will hurt local businesses in Canton especially hotels and restaurants.

16. justin on February 8, 2025 at 1:39 pm

    Like many others, I am deeply disappointed by the (entirely predictable) results of the Hall’s new voting procedures, but I’m not sure the “sky is falling” sentiments of some on the internet are entirely fair. There were always going to be growing pains with any new system, and it is incumbent on the voters to change their voting patterns if they are unhappy with the results. There is nothing wrong with a voter saying, for example, “it is now time that we as a panel prioritize Torry Holt so that in the future we can get to Willie Anderson and Reggie Wayne.” This is the exact same as the old “respect the queue” refrain.

    Before getting to my “solution,” I think it is important to remember the “old days” when the electorate rarely elected a full slate of candidates. I can’t emphasize enough that it was very, very rare. Back then, the last “up or down” vote was anything put a rubber stamp. Candidates were often voted down by what Dr. Z termed “the silent assassins,” voters who never expressed any reservations about a candidate but still failed to vote for him when the “up or down” vote occurred. Think of this as the football equivalent of the idiot (or idiots) who failed to vote for Jeter and Ichiro out of some misplaced belief that it disrespects Babe Ruth to have a unanimous Baseball HOFer. These “silent assassins” believed that they were keeping the Hall “exclusive,” but they were simple delaying the inevitable (except for poor Bob Kuechenberg) and creating the seniors backlog that ironically seems to be one the driving forces behind the year’s new misplaced voting procedures.

    While partial lists have been floating in articles this week, here is what my research indicates as a complete list of the candidates who failed to be elected after progressing to the final “up or down” vote: Dante Lavelli (2), Joe Schmidt, Night Train Lane, Jim Taylor, Rosie Brown, Tony Morabito, Jim Ringo (2), Weeb Ewbank (2), Willie Davis, Clark Shaughnessy, Paul Hornung (2), Don Maynard (2), Pete Rozelle (2), Doug Atkins, Sid Gillman, Joe Namath (2), Willie Lanier, Fran Tarkenton (2), Len Dawson, Bob Griese (2), Art Shell, Ted Hendricks, John Mackey, Al Davis, Charlie Joyner, Tom Mack, Jackie Smith, Dan Dierdorf (2), Dwight Stephenson (3), Mike Haynes, Lynn Swann (3), Ozzie Newsome, Dan Rooney, Howie Long, Jack Youngblood, Bill Parcells, Bob Kuechenberg, Harry Carson (2), Rayfield Wright, Michael Irvin, and Paul Tagliabue.

    Read that list again. Arguably the two best CBs (at least before Deion), the greatest TE, numerous members of the 1960s Packers, the greatest center (three times!), and at least nine members of the 100th Anniversary Team (including some who were elected unanimously). What a waste! Think of all the HOFers we are missing because some electors somehow thought someone like Joe Schmidt wasn’t a HOFer despite his 2 NFL championships, 8 first team all pros, and 10 pro bowls! And remember, this wasn’t a matter of prioritizing another player over Schmidt (or any of the others), but voting them down when it was a simple “up or down” vote.

    No one wants to go back to that era of HOF voting. But I think there are some individuals who believe the influx of seniors (again largely a product of the above wasted slots) and the “automatic” five-moderns-a-year has cheapened the Hall. Let me be crystal clear that I’m not one of those people. I’m a “big hall” guy. I love that Sam Mills is a HOFer while acknowledging that he is a nuanced candidate. But that doesn’t mean that I think everyone should be a HOFer, including some HOFers (although some of the individuals I’ve been most skeptical of have become some of the best ambassadors for the game, league, and Hall). Importantly, I recognize that reasonable minds can disagree, and different viewpoints should be weighed and considered. Afterall, if I believe, as a “big hall” guy, that there are some questionable HOFers, I recognize that “small hall” guys have significant concerns. And while we can never make everyone happy as to the results, there are procedural changes that can (and should) be implemented.

    Therefore, I’ve come up with the following modified system for the modern candidates that I think addresses the legitimate concerns of the “small hall” guys, while encouraging the election of worthy HOFers as soon as reasonably possible:

    1) Continue the screening committee (which did seem to resurrect worthy candidates);
    2) Continue to have the 25 (plus ties) semifinalists lists;
    3) Continue to have 15 finalists (although I would go back to allowing ties to get in the room);
    4) Continue to have the individual presentations for each candidate;
    5) After each presentation have a “up or down” vote (i.e., is this candidate a HOFer caliber player);
    6) After all 15 presentations, reveal those candidates who received 80% (or whatever percentage you want) of the “up or down” vote;
    7) If 15 to 11 candidates received the necessary 80%, election continues as it used to with reductions to 10, then 5, and the final 5 being HOFers;
    8) If 10 to 6 candidates received the necessary 80%, election continues with a reduction vote to 5, and the final 5 being HOFers;
    9) If 5 or less candidates received the necessary 80%, then the election is concluded with the remaining candidates being HOFers (with perhaps a minimum number of three or four).

    I don’t realistically think that the “up or down” vote will ever result in less than five candidates being elected, but if it did, so be it.

    I advocate for this procedure for a number of reasons.

    First, it eliminates the possibility of a “tyranny of the minority” situation where a candidate with a strong minority following progresses to the final 5 under the old system and is elected because the entire electorate is disinclined to vote down a “final 5.” In short, the criticism of the “automatic” five per year is gone.

    Second, it eliminates the mathematical problem inherent in the current system’s vote for 5 of 7 (with 80% needed). I might be wrong, but I don’t actually believe that any of the votes in this year’s final 7 was a “nay” for any candidate. It was instead a “preference” for someone else. Any of the final 7 would have been a worthy HOF. Therefore, Holt, Anderson, Kuechly, and Vinatieri weren’t “voted down,” they just weren’t preferred compared to Eric Allen, Jared Allen, and Gates (after the potential use of tiebreakers no less). My revised system already guarantees that the final 15, 7, 5, whatever have survived an “up or down” vote of 80%. From that point, it is simply a matter of “ordering” the candidates to find out who gets in this year and who waits for a future year. This system also eliminates relativism—meaning a “weak” candidate doesn’t get in because the ballot is “weak.” Each candidate is initially vetted individually, not compared to his fellow candidates.

    Third, this system also allows voters to vote their conscience without fear of “wasting” a final 5 spot. If there are complaints about the modern election, I believe it is that voters were unwilling for the prior 17 years to go back to the “old days” of voting down a final 5. In fact, in at least one year, the final 5 “up or down” vote didn’t even occur. My revised system guarantees that every candidate survives an initial “up or down” vote before the winnowing or prioritization process begins. And each voter can treat the “up or down” vote however he or she wants. For example, if they want to apply a higher standard to “first ballot” guys, so be it. If they want to prioritize one player per position, that is their right. In effect, this system borrows the best aspects of Baseball’s HOF selection process by adopting a single “up or down” vote for each candidate (subject to Baseball’s 10 votes per year limit), while keeping the best aspect of Football’s (the election meeting and accompanying discussions). And of course, the votes don’t need to be static year to year. Voters can and should change their mind if presented with new information. As an exercise, I went ahead and voted on this year’s finalists (remember I’m a “big hall” guy, but I also decided that I would only vote “yes” for first ballot guys that I thought should be worthy of that perceived “honor”):

    My 10 yes’s in 2025: Eric Allen, Jared Allen, Willie Anderson, Jahri Evans, Antonio Gates, Torry Holt, Steve Smith, Terrell Suggs, Reggie Wayne, and Darren Woodson.
    My 5 no’s in 2025: Luke Kuechley, Eli Manning, Fred Taylor, Adam Vinatieri, and Marshal Yanda.

    Fourth, this system could have the additional consequence of cycling guys through the room—a common complaint of some on the panel. In short, all electors will know which of the guys they support don’t have sufficiently wide appeal to ever be elected (i.e., anyone eliminated in the first “up or down” vote). This doesn’t necessarily mean that an elector should abandon those candidates, but it does mean that he or she needs to better explain their support. And if they can’t, then he or she should shift their support to another candidate who has broader appeal.

    With regard to the non-moderns, the same system could be used. However, unless the same non-moderns are nominated year over year, any system that makes voters choose between highly qualified candidates is a serious problem. Consider the following hypothetical group for 2026—seniors: Albert Lewis, Lester Hayes, Bob Kuechenberg; coach: Belichick; contributor: Kraft. All three of these seniors are worthy of the HOF but even under my proposed system two could fail to gain election because they were up against one of the three greatest coaches of all time and an incredibly powerful owner. Yet, if the same three seniors were nominated against Holmgren and Hay from this year or a hypothetical Dan Reeves and Bud Adams from a future year, all three would likely be elected under my system. The solution to this problem is very difficult. The year a non-modern is nominated should not be outcome determinative of whether that non-modern is elected. Instead, each non-modern candidate should stand on his (or her) own record. But unless candidates are renominated each year by their committees, the hall is literally pitting potential HOFers against each other (not entirely unlike Deion’s “upper” room idea). Like Holt, Anderson, Kuechly, and Vinatieri, this year’s non-moderns weren’t necessarily “voted down,” they were simply not preferred. The one benefit of my procedure would be that the committees would be informed (based on who survived the initial “up or down” vote) which of their nominees had enough support to potentially be elected.

    Finally, without some change to the non-modern election process, the senior committee would be better served to either decline to nominate a third candidate or nominate someone so obviously unqualified that he would not receive any of the precious votes necessary to get to 80%. Any process that encourages such obviously disingenuous gamesmanship is fundamentally flawed and should be strapped immediately. A potential solution would be the following: any nominee that survives the 80% initial vote is automatically renominated for the next year’s pool of five. But I’d prefer they do something like Baseballs eras committee with set schedules. For example, in years ending with “0” or “5” there would be one senior and one contributor nominated; in years ending with “2,” “4,” “7,” and “9” there would be one senior and one coach nominated; in years ending with “1,” “3,” “6,” and “8” there would be two seniors resulting in the following elections for the next decade:

    2025 – 1 senior / 1 contributor
    2026 – 2 seniors
    2027 – 1 senior / 1 coach
    2028 – 2 seniors
    2029 – 1 senior / 1 coach
    2030 – 1 senior / 1 contributor
    2031 – 2 seniors
    2032 – 1 senior / 1 coach
    2033 – 2 seniors
    2034 – 1 senior / 1 coach

    Such a ten year cycle could result in up to 14 seniors, 4 coaches, and 2 contributors. That feels about right with the backlogs. That said, there is no way the Hall could go a decade without changing its voting procedures—for better or worse.

    Welcome an

17. justin on February 8, 2025 at 1:40 pm

    Welcome any thoughts and feedback

18. Andy p on February 8, 2025 at 10:46 pm

    I’m happy for Eric Allen Jared Allen Antonio Gates and Sterling Sharpe but I’d feel better if Torry Holt Darren Woodson and Mike Holmgren were part of the class

    Look on the bright side we’ll have a fast induction ceremony

    I hope all the voters complain to Jim Porter and he has no choice but to go back to the old process

19. Brian wolf on February 8, 2025 at 11:29 pm

    It works out well for Vinny and Kuechly who dont have to worry about upcoming players like Pouncey, Witten, Gore and others bumping them out of the automatic, top 7 finalist queue …

20. Bill on February 9, 2025 at 7:50 am

    I believe they will revert back after another 2 cycles. Three years of complaints would do it.

21. Paul on February 9, 2025 at 12:53 pm

    One of the fundamental issues here is that Board likely forced Porter to create rules to cause smaller classes..as President, and also the Board, for a non-profit 501c(3) they have fiduciary responsibility to ensure the PFHOF is financially viable…one of both didn’t consider or think though fully (in both cases, that’s morally and ethically wrong) revenue impact smaller class would have on Hall as enshrinement week tickets events remains a significant source of their revenues.

    Second, Porter and the Hall staff failed in their duty and responsibility to at least consult with the voters before changes went to the Board, and when approved needed to communicate will all votes the new rules, provide them copies or summaries, offer virtual meeting to discuss BEFORE initial voting process started, yet none of that was done. We have public comments from some voters before the election meeting unaware of impact of changes, they found out during meeting, and we have others making public comments after the announcement surprised about outcome (only 3+1 elected) and angry about outcome but also not even aware in advance of that possibility.

    Voters need to complain en masse directly to the Board about need for course correction, and once Board sees financial impact with smaller class=fewer paid attendees=less revenue, be more aware of their duties and if Porter and Hall staff did not take the time and effort to be aware of the new math and communicate that to the Board when new rules were proposed to them at August Board meeting (that several others on social media pointed out soon after rules were announced, was not that hard to see a class of just 4 was coming) some working for Hall, perhaps even Porter, needs to be fired.

    And we have been over this again and again, but bears repeating here… there is no going back to 8+ member classes with 3 seniors or any other reset of the categories anytime soon..Hall made decision that especially the centennial class and then followed by nine elected in 2023 was step to fair in terms of giving the honor significance and value and being exclusive-and yes from a few voters (who support seniors) it was the large number of seniors that got some PFHOFers, voters and others in media focused on too large classes.

    But yes I think we will get a course correction, best we could hope for would be mins of 4(5)+2 and that in place for class of 2026-but may not come that soon or may simply be to increase moderns to 4. Thats the likely solution, doubt Hall would look at anything more structured, complex or gets to 7+ class with 2+seniors/coach/contributor. Its just not in the cards folks.

    and for now (assuming rules are not changed for class of 2026) it looks like some interesting outcomes for semi-finalists, finalists and those elected-as unlike 2025 we will have strong contenders-two in fact-for first ballot…math still likely does not get us to 4 moderns, so its going to be Brees, Fitz + one of LukeK/AdamV/WAnderson…. enjoy!

22. Brian wolf on February 9, 2025 at 3:18 pm

    Like you said Paul, there is no reason why there cant be six inductees and Justin had a lot of sound suggestions for the future voting. Send that in writing to the Atlantic, Justin! This HOF seems to rewrite the rules and procedures every two years and 2027 wont be any different. Only this time there will be a backlash about Patriots getting elected with Belichick, Gronk and Brady, who I feel all will be first ballot, while Kraft gets even more bitter.

    It seems like every year we all get excited for the big induction announcements only to be disappointed once they get here. Are we too fickle as subjective football fans or just disappointed that voters cant or wont do a better job? Even when Howley FINALLY got elected, I was underwhelmed by Riley and Klecko, who had great careers. I guess we all have to be content with the guys we wanted to get elected, but every time I think about Jones, Tagliabue, Bowlen, DeBartolo, Beathard, Polian and other non-players getting voted in, in burns me inside that a deserving player didnt get those opportunities. No wonder we dont hear from Bachslunch, Rasputin, Corey and BSLO anymore. Fans get frustrated …

23. Brian wolf on February 9, 2025 at 4:35 pm

    Picking the Eagles tonight 30-24 over KC …

    DeVonta Smith MVP

    The Jets are moving on from Rodgers. Could the Vikings try to replace Darnold with him? Will any team try to obtain him, or will he retire?

24. Andy p on February 9, 2025 at 4:49 pm

    I bet the voters are already complaining to Jim Porter

    I’ll just say this running the Pro Football Hall of Fame isn’t easy nor is the National Baseball Hall of Fame

    Jim Porter and the board have the power to fix this and they most certainly should

25. Andy p on February 9, 2025 at 4:55 pm

    Brian when it’s time to present Bill Belichick and Tom Brady to the selection committee Ron Borges the New England representative will just get up and say Bill Belichick in 2026 and Tom Brady in 2028 and that’ll be it

26. Tony - Zoneblitz on February 9, 2025 at 6:00 pm

    @Brian – No, the Vikings will not replace Darnold with Rodgers. At least they better not. Trolling them with Favre was fun. Rodgers…no thanks.

27. Brian wolf on February 9, 2025 at 7:45 pm

    Haha … I understand Tony but everyone thinks O’Connell can revive any career. Favre did take them to the NFC Championship game but Rodgers will ask for too much anyway.

    Youre right, Andy P, these obvious choices, including Gronk, will keep the inductees low until changes happen again.

    Class Of 2026

    Wishlist

    Woodson
    Brees
    Kuechly
    Witten
    Belichick
    Wistert

    Prediction

    Brees
    Fitz
    Vinatieri
    Belichick
    K Anderson

28. Boknows on February 9, 2025 at 9:29 pm

    Brian – I’d swap Anderson for Kraft and hope they add at least a 6th name with another player (modern or senior).

    Dominant performance by the Eagles. Congrats!!

29. Brian wolf on February 9, 2025 at 9:38 pm

    Yep, a new champion and Hurts and Fangio helped redeem the team from their 2023 collapse. The Chiefs offensive line was man-handled.

    Can the Chiefs get back next year?
    We will see how they respond.

30. Andy p on February 9, 2025 at 11:28 pm

    Clark Judge wrote this article for Talk of Fame saying the Pro Football Hall of Fame should get rid of the contributor category

    https://talkoffametwo.com/nfl/hall-of-fame-class-2025

    How are Robert Kraft and Clint Murchison going to elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame if the Pro Football Hall of Fame gets rid of the contributor category

31. Andy p on February 9, 2025 at 11:29 pm

    I have no clue what Jim Porter and the board were thinking when they made these changes

32. Andy p on February 10, 2025 at 2:01 am

    If you go to the page listing the voters for the Pro Football Hall of Fame you’ll see a section saying at large open I emailed the Pro Football Hall of Fame asking if I could take it I told them I study film do research and know the game and I’m not a journalist or writer but I’m an expert they responded asking me for some background which I did they asked for a resume which I told them I had but it was outdated I told them what a did I’m a greeter for the Atlanta Braves and I work at a wine and spirits when I’m not working there I’m a football expert and my knowledge of football is outstanding they didn’t respond so I’ll take that as a no I’d be a good voter though

33. Boknows on February 10, 2025 at 3:16 am

    Barkley broke two of Terrel Davis’ records.

    Most rushing yards season (incl playoffs) 2,504 (2,476)
    Most scrimmage yads season (incl playoffs) 2,857 (2,762)

34. Paul on February 10, 2025 at 9:33 am

    Since when did combined regular season+playoff stats become a thing??? Seems like a recent media creation and not official NFL record stat.

    AndyP its pretty clear that the Board (having heard from Deion and others) wanted smaller classes, unfortunately seems like no one at Hall considered the math implications from the new process they created before it was enacted. There is a group who fill classes of 8+ have diluted the honor (unfortunately for us much of that concern focused on large number of seniors elected since 2020)…they won the PR battle with the Hall, over many of the voters who had no say but many high profile voters including Tony Dungy are pushing back-lets hope we get course correction even if just one more modern slot, it would help moving more to election and lesson the modern and senior backlogs.

    As to contributors, its not that Judge is against them but he does raise a good point-why continue to have as standalone category if the full committee isn’t interested in electing any-its a wasted slot that could help a deserving senior among the 5.

35. Brian wolf on February 10, 2025 at 9:58 am

    Whether official record or not, Barkley has had the best one-year free agency season in NFL History.
    His season actually goes beyond statistics, because he not only helped a team win it all but proved that the veteran running back in general has value, depending upon the player himself, rather than his age.

    Derrick Henry had an amazing season himself, despite being 31 years of age, yet will only average 8 million dollars on his deal. The position is more important than people think and once a back proves himself, he deserves his second or even third payday. Its actually nice for Barkley to take the headlines from a QB these days.

    The Eagles defensive line did a great job last night. Josh Sweat should have been MVP but Hurts ran the offense well. His only mistake came on the interception where the center let Bolton come in unblocked to hit him as he threw the ball.Hurts has to love this victory after last years thumping by the Bucs in the playoffs.

36. Paul on February 10, 2025 at 10:32 am

    not denying his great season–just seems like a media construct that I first noticed (and others online commented on) with Cooper Kupp a few seasons ago

    and yea its a copycat league, look for teams to again build the lines and not be as unwilling to pick a RB in first round if its a high need

37. Andy p on February 11, 2025 at 1:34 am

    I can’t believe we waited months and this is the class we got don’t get me wrong I’m happy for Eric Allen Jared Allen Antonio Gates Sterling Sharpe but I can’t believe there was only 4 it should have been 7 with Torry Holt Darren Woodson and Mike Holmgren joining them

    It is so abundantly that this is not going to work it’s been clear for a while for me But now the voters are coming around there are no excuses why the Pro Football Hall of Fame to go back to the old process

    Bring it back bring it back

38. Andy p on February 11, 2025 at 1:35 am

    We should all picket in front of the Pro Football Hall of Fame asking them to change the process

39. Brian wolf on February 11, 2025 at 9:56 am

    I admire your passion and having the balls to apply for the HOF itself, Andy P–though it wouldnt be for a voting position–but this stuff is really no big deal. Fans and historians have been rolling with the changes for years now. Back in 2010, when I was trying to find ways to influence voting for the Hall, I had no idea that this site, PFJ, TalkOfFame Network and PFRA, even excisted, and was happy these sites let me join and comment. When I first got on this site around 2019, I couldnt believe all the impassioned fans and commenters that knew everything about the HOF and voting process. I learned alot from these guys, and miss hearing from a lot of commenters that had been on here since like, 2008. I feel once their subjective players and choices made the Hall, and for some … didnt, they let go and realized there is more to life, and we just adjust to changes.

    NFL football has been a part of my life since I was ten years old. I guess as the sport “evolves” I still hold onto its past and history through these sites and rooting for players and coaches to make this Hall Of Fame. Hopefully, I can visit again, when I missed my chance with Chuck Howley’s election. Its hard to ever let it go, despite aging, jobs and relationships …

40. Brian wolf on February 11, 2025 at 10:02 am

    Exsisted … my bad.

41. yt on February 11, 2025 at 1:57 pm

    For the past 2 years the hall rejected the 2 best candidates Parker and Hay. It seems that Canton looks to Cooperstown for it’s inspiration in not electing the person responsible for putting their hall in their respective locations. The only problem is Cooperstown didn’t put in Abner Doubleday because his “accomplishment” is a myth, and Hay’s was critical to football

42. Brian wolf on February 11, 2025 at 2:55 pm

    I still cant understand why Baughan and Holmgren werent elected? You figured everyone could agree on one if not both but maybe Tyrer or Hay took away necessary votes? Were they then lumped with the moderns after the cutdown to three? Who were those three?

43. Paul on February 11, 2025 at 3:25 pm

    5 seniors/coach/contributor are presented and voted on separately with min 1 and max 3 (not sure what you mean by lumped together with moderns???) its likely the math that causes Baughan and Holmgrem to fail to hit the required 80%-due to vote splitting.

    Could Like this>>

    49 voters x 3 names on their ballot= 147 total votes, need 40 for 80%

    Sharpe 45+elected
    Holmgren 38
    Baughan 34
    Tyrer 18
    Hay 12

    Basically strong support for a 2nd senior candidate can pull votes from the coach candidate (or other way..strong coach/contributor can draw voters from deserving 2nd senior-yet neither get to min 40 needed to be elected.

    That “math” (if not changed) likely means 1 out of group of 5 will be elected in future years. For example 5 ballot for class of 2026 could look like 3 seniors, BillB and RKraft..could look like:

    (lets assuming full committee of 50 x 3 -150 votes)

    BillB 48
    RKraft 40
    Senior1 32
    Senior2 15
    Senior3 15

44. Andy p on February 11, 2025 at 7:52 pm

    Brian what do you mean it wouldn’t be for a voting position and this stuff is no big deal

45. Jeff on February 11, 2025 at 8:03 pm

    Thanks, Paul – I hope the voters are seeing the vote-splitting issue as a bug that needs fixing. The board must have seen it as a feature, thinking that if a senior isn’t “elite” enough to get 80% of a split vote, then he shouldn’t be in. I think it stinks to high heaven. We’ll be lucky to get one senior elected per year, and there’s a good chance that in years like next year, there won’t be a single senior in the class.

    I didn’t think there was much of a chance that Hay would be elected (although he should have been). But a player like Maxie Baughan getting rolled over drives me up the wall – if you’re not going to elect a guy like that, then why have senior nominees? In any prior year, Baughan would’ve been a shoe-in regardless of recency bias. Even voters who knew little about him probably would’ve voted for him on the merits after hearing his case, and his (extremely strong) case had never been heard in that meeting. The rules changed and the rug got pulled out from under him and it’ll be the same story from now on.

    It’s frustrating as someone who enjoys NFL history and has viewed the Hall of Fame as a special place since visiting with my father as a kid way back in the 80s. Even as far back as the 90s I didn’t understand why there were so many classes with only 4-5 people and so many great players (in a sport with so many positions and eras) that weren’t in. For every brief step forward they take to seemingly improve work on the backlog, they quickly take two steps back and make it worse. I feel like if they hadn’t added that silly contributor category in 2015 and just kept the status quo, we would have been better off.

46. Andy p on February 11, 2025 at 10:51 pm

    Jeff silly contributor category I don’t agree with that then how would Bill Polian Ron Wolf Eddie DeBartolo Jerry Jones Bobby Beathard Pat Bowlen Steve Sabol Paul Tagliabue George Young and Bill Nunn have gotten in and how are Robert Kraft and Clint Murchison supposed to get in if there’s no contributor category how would we have better off with no contributor category

47. Brian wolf on February 12, 2025 at 8:52 am

    Like you already know Andy P, the voters are media members that cover the teams. Unless you cover a team for a newspaper or outlet in Atlanta, and can get a voter credential, you can only do a write-in vote to the HOF. Thats why most voters are loyal to players on their beats or watch. Most simply dont know or care about NFL history. Only the players they have seen. Thats why its no big deal, its too subjective a process, whether fair or not. On the PFRA as a member, you can vote and be a part of the HOVG election process, but even that can be frustrating. I feel my voting helped get Tony Latone elected however, and I am proud of that.

    I also feel if enough people do write-in votes to the HOF, it keeps a candidate from being forgottenly left off a preliminary list, which still helps their chances but until more historians with integrity are a part of the January HOF voting process, more recent candidates will have their chance over deserving players from decades ago.

    To answer your question about contributors, they have to be part of the nomination voting process like they were before 2014. Same as coaches, based on being part of the ballot like players. The contributor category was created to get more owners and executives elected. Most didnt play or coach and need to wait like any other player.

48. Paul on February 12, 2025 at 10:40 am

    I suspect contributors will not disappear but folded in with coaches (may be one compromise to get min 4 moderns or min 2 seniors set while keeping classes to 6 or 7 max (no more 8 or 9).

    Plus there are national media on the PFHOF selection committee (who are not market based) and increasingly as national and local sports media declines-fewer covering NFL-the rise of online/social media/podcast types are increasing, more are of those are voters…BUT they all have decade plus writing and reporting about the NFL as professional careers…..the real needed shift, and I suspect its coming soon, is to add non-media/historians to the 50 member committee.

49. Boknows on February 12, 2025 at 12:50 pm

    It’s crazy you need 80% approval while competing with other candidates whereas before it was a straight 80% yes or no as a standalone vote. It’s totally unbalanced.

    If they are going to keep this system then the 80% figure must be reduced to something more realistic. Just choosing the top 4/15 for modems and 2/5 for seniors/coaches/contributors by total votes would also be improvement from this year’s fiasco if they are persistent in reducing class sizes.

50. Paul on February 12, 2025 at 2:29 pm

    yea its possible that another easy fix is to drop min vote% required to 75 or 70% while keeping 5 max modern and 3 max others…one of those maths could do better to ensure class of 4+2

51. Boknows on February 12, 2025 at 4:50 pm

    We’ll never know but someone will know what percentage the 4th and 5th placed modern era candidate received.

52. Paul on February 12, 2025 at 5:00 pm

    Well yea the accounting firm that collects ballots (and perhaps Hall President) but no else knows

53. Andy p on February 12, 2025 at 7:50 pm

    Brian I know that I daydream about being a Pro Football Hall of Fame voter

54. Brian wolf on February 12, 2025 at 10:07 pm

    Haha … I do too Andy P. We all wish we could get our favorites voted in.
    I used to want to write for the Tennessean or ESPN for the Titans but I never had the credentials and experience in journalism–not to mention the connections–to get the job. I should have went more for it when I was younger, I dabbled in screenplay writing as well, but the bills had to get paid. That and keeping a damn car running … haha

55. Andy p on February 13, 2025 at 4:40 pm

    I’ve never been angry with the Pro Football Hall of Fame but I am now

56. Andy p on February 13, 2025 at 4:44 pm

    If the old process had been in place Torry Holt Darren Woodson and Mike Holmgren would have been elected

57. Andy p on February 13, 2025 at 4:44 pm

    It’s official the changes were a mistake you don’t treat people like this

58. Boknows on February 13, 2025 at 6:35 pm

    Woodson would not have been elected this time. He didn’t make the cut down to 7. Under the old system he’d have a great chance in 2026 with Eric Allen no longer splitting the DB vote.

59. Paul on February 13, 2025 at 8:25 pm

    I suspect Woodson is looking at 2027 or 2028 (last year as modern)

60. Boknows on February 13, 2025 at 9:29 pm

    Seeing how much of a late push was given to Eric Allen, I think that actually bodes well for Woodson’s chances.

61. Andy p on February 14, 2025 at 1:24 am

    I’ve made my decision unless the Pro Football Hall of Fame changes the process I’m not going to Canton in 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction you don’t treat people like this

62. Andy p on February 14, 2025 at 1:25 am

    Paul I know there’s no simple answer to this but why do you think the Pro Football Hall of Fame is struggling financially you mentioned it on Twitter or X

63. Paul on February 14, 2025 at 7:29 am

    I don’t think I stated the PFHOF was struggling financially-was just pointing out that revenues from paid ticketed events during enshrinement week is very important to their operations and fewer enshrined is going to mean fewer attendees and less revenue. Was just surprised why perhaps this wasn’t a stronger consideration by the Hall board in their decision to elect small classes. As the Hall has relatively small annual profit margin. It could be the financial impact of smaller class this year could influence change of heart by the Board

64. Paul on February 14, 2025 at 9:20 am

    And yes it’s complicated. Hall was once a very small scale enterprise and operations – for its initial four decades. They have since increased ticketed events, leasing space, hosting events, youth HS college football games etc… to move beyond just entrance ticket sales and enshrinement events (which also have expanded plus increased prices) as revenue sources Then failed effort to create Hall Village as a PFHOF led projects (they couldn’t raise funds so a few years ago that entire development project was taken over by outside entity – who themselves are struggling to finance completion of recent aspects of the Village Project – but at least now the actual PFHOF doesn’t have financial liability tied to Village). Also several years ago the NFL gave direct cash influx to support Hall operations and Hall has also secured several large donations (example Ralph Wilson family and owners of Saints -hence renaming of stadium). So they have diversified activities that generate revenue but worth noting they are still a relatively small financial operation, not really flush with cash reserves and run close to a balanced annual budget. None is problematic in terms of future survival but worth dismissing suggestions often made that Hall makes huge profit or that they receive sustained annual or frequent cash from NFL

65. Brian wolf on February 14, 2025 at 10:12 am

    You have to go Andy P. Once Brady is in –and it will be a huge speech and event like Peyton Manning’s induction–you will be fired up knowing Belichick, Gronk and possibly even Vinny or Kraft, will already be enshrined.

    I actually hope Witten and Woodson go in together, but I hope to visit again soon for either player.

    Could Rodgers be inducted in 2030?
    Not sure he is coming back, unless maybe a team like SF or Minn gives him a shot? I wonder if he would go to the Giants or Steelers? Would he go to the Colts in a weaker division?

66. Paul on February 14, 2025 at 10:52 am

    I project Woodson for 2027/2028..projecting Witten to 2030 or beyond (as will wait until after Gronk is first ballot in 2027, and 2028 (with Brady/Watt,carryover from other 2025-2027 finalists) would be tight fit for Witten if we are still talking just 2-4 modern slots.
    But does make a huge difference is we start to see 4 modern rather than 3 per year.

    NOT predictions (as some names can be moved around to different years, perhaps few others in mix) but just shows a timeline of outcomes where 3 per year looks a lot different if 4 per year, as current returning final 10 is a solid group but going to take a while to just get them elected, then add the 1st ballot locks….and fight among voters around Eli case could take several years to resolve..again all of this would be much different if 5 moderns per year was an option but seems very unlikely to me that in the next several years Board will revert back to that

    Future elections scenarios 2026-29

    If stays at min 3 modern per year

    2026 Brees/Fitz/LukeK

    2027 Gronk/AP/Holt

    2028 Brady/Watt/Woodson

    2029 Donald/JKelce/BenR

    If changes to min 4 modern per year

    2026 Brees/Fitz/LukeK/AdamV

    2027 Gronk/AP/Holt/WAnderson

    2028 Brady/Watt/Woodson/Yanda

    2029 Donald/JKelce/BenR/Sherman

67. Paul on February 14, 2025 at 10:56 am

    Oh just wanted to wrap up my previous financial tread with comment that even with smaller classes (that unless we are talking Tom Brady) that will likely see fewer paid attendees at the many paid ticket events during enshrinement week, I am not suggesting that Hall will go bankrupt, just that finances and revenues may be more challenging.

68. Andy p on February 14, 2025 at 7:38 pm

    Brian you right and I will I got time to think about it

69. Andy p on February 14, 2025 at 7:41 pm

    Does anyone else agree with me you don’t treat people like this

70. Boknows on February 14, 2025 at 7:55 pm

    The whole Canton economy would be affected.

71. Brian wolf on February 15, 2025 at 12:09 pm

    Alot of rumblings as well about this election on TOFTWO articles. John Turney discussed the shock and silence of the other journalists at the NFL Awards presentation in New Orleans. In an exercise with a panel on picking potentially two more modern candidates for this recent class, Clark Judge pointed out the math, when five of those jury members picked Kuechly, but couldnt get an 80% approval rate.

    The voters have themselves to blame. Justin pointed it out four months ago, there had to be a sort of pre-vote collusion for there to be more players chosen. With all the scattered votes, only the minimum required got voted in. Justin proved the math simply wasnt going to add up but these guys didnt seem to know or cared.

    You really cant be mad at the HOF itself, Andy P. They make changes all the time but the voters should have been more aware about the ramifications of their voting. Like Paul said, they probably cant, or wont, collude during the process but they could have at least figured the math better so at least a fourth member could have gotten a concentrated election, rather than everyone being so subjective with other candidates.

    Other than the four who werent elected, the queue really doesnt matter now, with another batch of players coming up very soon. Maybe the voters will understand the math –and possibly, pre-vote collusion–better next year?

72. Boknows on February 15, 2025 at 3:03 pm

    Disagree Brian. It should not be left to collusion to get candidates elected when the voting system is rotten. The blame here rests solely with the HOF and not the voters.

73. Paul on February 15, 2025 at 3:21 pm

    I agree with Boknows as it was Hall set new rules and perhaps even worst didn’t explain new rules and potential impact to voters – hence voters shock and outrage with results. And strongly disagree voters should have engaged in collusion before submitting ballots – suggestions that was common in past and wasn’t right then as it also creates back selections. And going forward it’s up to Hall to fix and not voters to find way to work around rules to ensure more are elected

74. Andy p on February 15, 2025 at 7:38 pm

    Brian well I am you don’t treat people like this

75. Andy p on February 15, 2025 at 7:39 pm

    Boknows totally I agree with you

76. Brian wolf on February 16, 2025 at 11:59 am

    I understand. Still, you would think that after five months, these voters would understand the seriousness of the math involved and pick the players with the BEST cases?

    Does Eric Allen have a better case than Kuechly, Yanda, Evans or Holt?

    Does Vinatieri as a kicker, over anybody in the top 7?

    I simply feel that many voters still tried to honor the queue–which is understandable–rather than go with the most deserving candidates that might have gotten four elected.
    With 15 finalists though, not a lot of margin for error.

77. Paul on February 16, 2025 at 12:18 pm

    It was appalling the many voters were completely unaware of the implications of the new election process math-it became apparent in social media posts from them in the weeks leading up to the meeting (for example Gary Myers), they somehow assumed that 4 or even 5 moderns could be elected.

    The best cases (lets say three and give Gates his election) from EAllen, JAllen, LukeK,AdamK,Holt,Woodson,Yanda, Evans is a very subjective decision by 49 individual voters, is the same case every year and we and others can debate the best 4 or 5 as we do every year. And yes honor the queue has been a stead fast approach for voters for decades-none of us should be surprised. You and I (and others here) might disagree on the top 4 or 5 (this year top 3) but like every year everyone in top 10 is deserving and most have flaws on their resumes. There simply is no way (never been one) to get the voters to agree on the top candidates, just rules in past allowed for 5 finalists-that in final step they simply endorsed (all would get 80% on last voter)-so it was the process not the voters that got to final 5 -who we and others often disagreed with. 49 voters are going to have wide ranging views on the top 5 or 4 or 3-thats just the way it is and always will be-differences of opinions.

    I do think the voters should have been more aware of the math (likely only 3 moderns get elected) but you assume 49 voters would all agree on those 3 moderns…hence of the 7 finalists its likely at least 5 got votes but splitting of voters means 2 fell short of 80%. Its a crappy process, but not one we can expect or think 49 voters will fix by agreeing to only for 4 of 7 so 4 get 80%….. but for the Hall who created this mess to fix-easy to do: either increase min to 4 or lower % so more likely 4 can be elected.

    Bottom like is that you have misguided expectations (and fail to look at past elections for evidence) to expect voters when given a final group of 10 or in this case 7, to agree to final 5 or in this case 3. Its the process that get the results of a certain #, previous it was 5…now its 3 or 4.

78. Andy p on February 16, 2025 at 4:29 pm

    Paul well said

79. Andy p on February 16, 2025 at 4:31 pm

    Why didn’t the Pro Football Hall of Fame consult with the voters I emailed Rick Gosselin asking if he and the others were upset they weren’t consulted and this is what he told me

    It’s their process. We have no say in it. We can only operate under the ground rules they give us.

80. Boknows on February 17, 2025 at 1:48 am

    While I would not have Eric Allen in my Top 3 among the 15 finalists, anyone who made the cut to 10 then 7 is a deserved HOFer. I have no issue in pushing him forward of others in the queue who arguably had a better case. It’s the not first time we’ve seen that recently (Sam Mills).

    I’m sure it is mentioned in discussion that a candidate is very close to the end of their eligibility. And the voters understand what is meant when that point is raised. Not collusion.but more a gentle reminder we need to act now before it’s too late.

    Woodson and Holt should hopefully also get that push.

81. Paul on February 17, 2025 at 9:39 am

    Yes Rick is right but its interesting that when Porter started in 2022 one of the first things he did was consult with voters, which led to his proposal accepted by Board to have 3 seniors per year 2023-2025, only to flip entirely on that view just two years later-and not even consult the voters. At the very least Hall should have provided all voters full copy of the new election rules, summary of those and host informational meeting to go over them-before class of 2025 election cycle started in late summer last year. They failed in that responsibility to inform the voters, its not about their authority as Hall to set rules, its their failure to communicate those changes. I suspect we now all know why Hall had no interest in being clear with voters about the election changes (would have been widespread outrage, like we are reading post election)

82. Paul on February 17, 2025 at 9:49 am

    there are no rules that prohibit during the finalist presentations to mention the number of years left on modern ballot-we have seen that benefit other finalists and clearly was a factor for EAllen, who jumped from final 15 in 2024 (not in final 10) to election this year. Same will certainly benefit current 2025 final 10 Woodson-last ballot as modern is 2028, and also eventually 2025 final 7 Holt (who has nine more years as Modern-he’s getting in 2027 or 2028). Not sure its going to help Watters (2026) and Webb (2027) as we saw with Albert Lewis, making final 15 your last year on ballot is not path to election, both are going to find it really hard to mafe 2026 final 15 which with the returning 12 and adding Brees Fitz Witten and likely Gore is going to be hard for others to get in that group

83. Paul on February 17, 2025 at 12:09 pm

    Judge just posted story on Talk of Fame Two how the new election process hurts modern candidates like Webb from getting elected-in fact, even making finalist step

84. Andy p on February 17, 2025 at 4:37 pm

    I’m so angry with the Pro Football Hall of Fame I feel like a volcano about to erupt it doesn’t help that I have autism

85. Andy p on February 17, 2025 at 4:38 pm

    Paul why do you think the Pro Football Hall of Fame didn’t consult with the voters

86. Paul on February 17, 2025 at 4:58 pm

    I don’t know AndyP…if I had to speculate it was that Porter knew many would be angry, and strongly disagree, so to save himself from that situation he just avoided them and took to the Board…I think what is just as unprofessional is “hiding” the resulting implications from the voters, not clearly communicating the changes and impacts to all the voters, before voting cycle even began-if I was a voter the no consultation would be upsetting, the lack of subsequent communication on impacts is insulting.

    And lets remember there are currently only 49 voters, because someone resigned after the annual Board meeting during August enshrinement week in Canton (where they appoint new voters) and after the election rules were changed—-think about that for a moment……very interesting and possible intention timing to resign.

    I suspect this has causes a huge divide between many voters and Porter, Hall staff and Board

87. Andy p on February 17, 2025 at 7:33 pm

    Paul I hope so and I bet even his wife and daughters are furious with him because of this you don’t treat people like this I emailed the Pro Football Hall of Fame asking to take that voting spot see my comment from February 10

88. Paul on February 18, 2025 at 12:17 pm

    Andy P only active members of the sports media (cover NFL) can be considered for selection committee membership.

    its unfortunate to see finalists nominated but not elected-the four from the seniors/coach/committee were not the only or first finalists (including 2025 modern finalists) not elected, happens most election years-especially for moderns but also has occurred for seniors/coaches/contributors (think of the large number of centennial class finalists not elected in 2020-some still have not).

    When you have finalists-every HOF does-every election you are going to have disappointed candidates/family members/teammates etc. as they are not all elected… just nature of the process

89. Brian wolf on February 18, 2025 at 1:07 pm

    Its still ironic and unfortunate as well that rather than having Eli Manning throw a wrench into the voting, it was Vinatieri.

    Look, he is a deserving candidate and will be elected but Top 7 on first ballot? Many people might have expected that but the players downvoted from #8-15 have to be incredulous … lets hope its at least four elected next year, because if automatic top 7 continue to make the finalist list, it wont be long before his election anyway.

90. Paul on February 18, 2025 at 2:22 pm

    electing 3 and not 5 certainly has its impact, but don’t really see much compared to previous process with the final 10 cut down to 5..just means going to take a few more elections to get the current final 10 all elected…but really is an impact to those running out of time as modern finalists (Woodson) and other current and future semi-finalists who don’t move quickly to finalists as may stick there much longer and risk election as modern
    If it takes a few more elections to get 2025 first ballot guys in (AdamV, LukeK, Eli) not much impact to them. I have no issue with AdamV in final 7 for 2025, and if he had been elected would have also been fine by me-member of the NFL 100th anniversary team-says it all there….with these new rules their are candidates to be worried about but many others whose impact is few years delay

91. Andy p on February 18, 2025 at 4:27 pm

    Paul I know that thought Joel Bussert isn’t a member of the media I’d still be a good voter though I daydream about being a Pro Football Hall of Fame voter and do you agree with me that you don’t treat people like this I’m so angry with the Pro Football Hall of Fame I feel like a volcano about to erupt it doesn’t help that I have autism this has got to change

92. Paul on February 18, 2025 at 9:05 pm

    Process has never been fair – Howley waited decades while his dementia advanced to point by time elected he wasn’t full aware.

    Take a deep breath and relax as we can’t change a thing here nor do elections impact our lives. One needs to accept results, yes discuss and complain but keep everything in perspective-more so in a country and world that is madness

93. Andy p on February 19, 2025 at 1:29 am

    Frank Cooley said in his latest article for Hall of Football the voters had a lengthy Zoom meeting with officials from the Pro Football Hall of Fame and several more are planned for the near future hope they change the process again he also comes up with some suggestions

94. Paul on February 19, 2025 at 7:38 am

    Yea so it’s great to hear that unlike last year the Hall is having conversations with voters acknowledging process needs to be fixed and wiling to have ongoing discussions around ideas to do so, interesting to see what they come up with but seems very likely that increases minimums are possible

95. Brian wolf on February 19, 2025 at 12:46 pm

    Yep, in the same Cooney article, he talks about collusion, where a certain voter, tried to get other voters not to vote for a certain candidate, which is Tyrer. Was this guy kicked out for violating rules? Were any of the guys last year that brought racism in the discussions of Parker and Powell? Are these guys even qualified if they cant follow their own rules? Like I have been saying, Andy, life is too short to get worked up about this stuff.

    If anything, whether we like it or not, the Hall may be trying to even classes out after 8-9 member classes. What was really galling was having three classes that had two or more contributors in 2015, 2019 and 2020–with three members, though Young at least coached as an assistant–thats seven players that could have been elected, that werent.

    Since the 1970 HOF Class, there have been 17 other classes that have consisted of four people or less. In 1997, 2000 and 2010, nepotism crept into the HOF as Wellington Mara, Dan Rooney and Steve Sabol joined their fathers as Tony mentioned, into being elected.

    Imagine going to see Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Howie Long and Dave Wilcox get elected, and up there on stage with them is Dan Rooney … barf!

96. Brian wolf on February 19, 2025 at 12:50 pm

    Sorry, Steve Sabol was elected in 2020 with the Centennial Class. I loved what he did for NFL Films but felt his father was enough for the HOF …

97. Andy p on February 19, 2025 at 4:57 pm

    Here’s the latest Talk of Fame asking what changes you would make to the voting process

    https://talkoffametwo.com/judge-and-jury/hall-of-fame-voting-changes

    What would you do

    Here’s what I would if I was president of the Pro Football Hall of Fame which obviously I’m not

    Have a special election for pre 60s candidates with voters like Clark Judge and Rick Gosselin and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen

    Go back to the old voting process

    Have more transparency

    Let the public view the meetings but without comments

98. Paul on February 19, 2025 at 4:58 pm

    Cooney is referring to Bill Polian and to my knowledge only 2 voters left selection committee in 2024 both on good terms (and were reappointed as non voters on BRPs)

99. Paul on February 19, 2025 at 5:11 pm

    Andyp following from that story, lets stick to their rules ONLY ONE CHANGE?

    (and I have many ideas as you do)..but if just one I would say…set class minimums at 4 modern+2 senior+1 coach/contributor (rotate each year) as for me the most fundamental fix needed with these rules is get back to more deserving candidates elected each year..and I am willing to concede 8 and 9 member classes are too large…if it means no classes of just 4 or 5

100. Andy p on February 19, 2025 at 7:47 pm

     Paul the two voters who left were John Czarnecki and Peter King can I heard your other ideas what do you think of my other ideas I’m saying if I could make more than one change

101. Boknows on February 20, 2025 at 12:56 am

     I like the 4-2-1 suggestion. A class of 7 feels about right. Just elect the Top 4 modern era vote getters from a cutdown of 7.

     I would also like to see the seniors and coaches/contributors elected directly by each special committee who are better qualified to make a judgment. Leave the discussion for the 15 modern era finalists to the 50 voters in mid January,

102. Paul on February 20, 2025 at 9:40 am

     other ideas…I have many
     1) 50 voters need to include mix of former players, GMs, coaches, historians-lets say 20%; also every voter has 3 yr term, rotates off next 3 yr cycle but can then rejoin next cycle, stagger 3 yr terms so every year we get 1/3 change in voters from year before, new ideas fresh perspectives each year
     2) mandatory 2 hr virtual meeting before voters submit their ballot for 25 semi-finalists (you do not attend you don’t get to vote), just to discuss any modern candidates voters would like to highlight-no need for formal presentations, allow each voter (if they would like to) to discuss a deserving candidate needing attention and awareness of the voters. e.g end of modern ballot guys
     3) BRPs need to increase from current 9 to say 15, also 3 yr terms, stagger terms so 1/3 change every election-brings new mix and fresh ideas each election-give BRPs set slots and allow direct election into PFHOF, no need to bring to full committee to present and vote on (since vast majority of 50 member selection committee don’t care about those candidates have limited interest or understanding of the pre 2000 history of NFL
     4) as alternative to #3 for seniors, empower an one time committee of 9-12 historians, give then set # of election slots for pre1990 seniors (lets say 10) review all the recent senior finalists and let the special committee elect a special one time only class of those pre 1990 seniors-then moving forward in normal annual elections, seniors will only be pool of those since 1990-get one slot per election..in other words one final fair review and vote of older seniors and move on from that group/era forever

103. Brian wolf on February 20, 2025 at 11:51 am

     My change would be to go back to five moderns and two seniors, period. Eliminate the contributor category and have coaches or deserving executives go through the usual process before 2014. If theyre no-brainer candidates like Reid or Belichick, they can be nominated like modern players. If theyre older coaches or executives like Buck Shaw, Jack Vainisi or Eddie Kotal, they can be nominated like the seniors. This HOF needs to go back to being about players and coaches.

104. Paul on February 20, 2025 at 2:45 pm

     in the coming weeks and months we will no doubt here more about discussions between voters and the Hall, including plenty of idea and suggestions, which is great and look forward to seeing how that proceeds..in the spirit of that let me share this from voter Eugene Frenette in story he posted earlier today..(and these insights are very helpful and appreciated as in recent years, and now even more so, to have more voters speak out about process-to extend they are willing and able to:

     “Speaking with a half-dozen voters, all of whom preferred to talk anonymously, there’s a feeling of overwhelming disappointment, and certainly some anger, about the changes in voting protocol that made it look like they were shortchanging the careers of HOF finalists. ”

     “This year, we had so much ammunition that should have gotten more people in the Hall of Fame,” said one voter, who has been part of the 49-member electorate for over a decade. “I was shocked that [coach nominee] Mike Holmgren and [wide receiver] Torry Holt didn’t get in.

     “I’d say the majority of voters are very disappointed how this went down and we’re going to have a call about it.”

     “nother voter was livid about deliberating on a Zoom call for eight-plus hours, discussing the 15 modern-era finalists and five senior players/coach/contributor finalists, yet resulting in only three and one, respectively, getting into Canton.

     “What makes me upset is it makes us look as voters that we didn’t think more than three modern era candidates were worthy of election,” he said. “That’s not the case.”

     It’ll be interesting to see whether the voter pushback results in the HOF Board of Directors calling an audible when it comes time to vote on the Class of 2026. ”

     “One voter highly critical of the voting change says it’s almost a guarantee that future HOF classes will not reach the maximum number because there’s too many qualified candidates.

     Another reason this change is misguided is football, by virtue of 22 starting positions, has more HOF-worthy candidates than other sports. It should be putting a greater number of players in Canton, not less.

     “We’ve got so many guys backed up that are worthy of getting in and it’s only going to get worse now,” the voter said. “I would be curious to find out who thought this would be a good idea. This rule change doesn’t make any sense to me.

     “I could have predicted this [reduced class] would happen because when you get good candidates, the vote is going to get split. We were agonizing every year just trying to get it down to five [finalists].”

     “Many voters I’ve known for decades have expressed how gut-wrenching it is for them just to whittle 15 finalists to 10, then 5. Now the change in voting for five of seven finalists — and not knowing how many or who gets in because the HOF doesn’t tell them — makes it even more agonizing.

     “They didn’t need to change anything,” said one voter. “Just give it to the top five vote-getters. There’s never going to be a shortage where you don’t have five deserving candidates.

     “Smaller classes are absolutely going to happen because more deserving guys are going to be backlogged. If 80 percent is the standard, less guys will get in every year.”

     Some have speculated the HOF is concerned about voting results, which voters are supposed to keep secret, getting out and that’s why this new format was adopted. Others believe current HOF members influenced the Board of Directors to make entry more exclusive, but HOF spokesman Rich Desrosiers denied that was the reason for the voting change. ”

     and note this last statement….

     So the question becomes this: will the HOF revert back to the old voting protocol that practically ensures a maximum five modern era candidates are elected, or will the current bylaws stay in place for the foreseeable future?

     “With this change and having only one year to look at how the results transpired, it’s more likely this system will stay in place for one more year,” Desrosiers said. “

105. Paul on February 20, 2025 at 3:37 pm

     correction: Eugene Frenette is NOT a voter, but insights and quotes from his story were from several voters he contacted

106. Andy p on February 20, 2025 at 4:47 pm

     Here’s the article

     https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/columns/gene-frenette/2025/02/19/pro-football-hall-of-fame-changes-harder-entry-fred-taylor-tom-coughlin-gene-frenette/78972356007/

107. Andy p on February 20, 2025 at 4:47 pm

     Paul what do you think about this have more transparency

108. Paul on February 20, 2025 at 5:24 pm

     Not opposed but not really sure it improves outcomes

109. Boknows on February 20, 2025 at 5:45 pm

     Zach Martin retires. The first potential candidate for 2030.

110. Andy p on February 20, 2025 at 7:47 pm

     Paul what do you mean it doesn’t improves outcome

111. Paul on February 20, 2025 at 9:20 pm

     Let’s say we had a lot more transparency during class of 2025 election – would it have changed outcome?

112. Andy p on February 20, 2025 at 10:51 pm

     Paul I don’t know what are you trying to say

113. Paul on February 21, 2025 at 7:00 am

     So what do you mean where you say transparency?

114. Paul on February 21, 2025 at 12:37 pm

     I guess what I am saying Andy P is that transparency is great, just doubt that it improves the results

115. Brian wolf on February 23, 2025 at 1:55 pm

     Has Julio Jones officially retired from the NFL? According to nfl.com and profootballreference.com, he is still considered active? Would he be eligible for the HOF in 2029 or 2030?

     Antonio Brown will be eligible for the Hall soon as well, with Kelce also possibly retiring … going to get pretty hairy by the 2030 election. Holt and Wayne may not make it.

116. Paul on February 23, 2025 at 3:30 pm

     Jones didn’t play in 2024 which would make him eligible for class of 2029 as hall doesn’t use retirement “date”, announcements or filing paperwork with league, it’s simply starts clock on last season not on 53 man regular season roster

117. Paul on February 23, 2025 at 3:33 pm

     Zack Martin has given us our first class of 2030 first ballot candidate – agreed very possible Chiefs look to release JKelce in coming weeks (could restructure last year of his deal but perhaps time for them to move on as his production and health are quickly declining)

118. Paul on February 23, 2025 at 3:34 pm

     Holt has several years left on modern ballot, was in final 7 and after waiting until Fitz is elected in 2026 – he’s next in – very likely 2027 or 2028.

119. Brian wolf on February 24, 2025 at 1:59 pm

     Thanks Paul … looking at his last roster spot which was Eagles but hopefully, Jones wont try to come back.
     He probably wont be first ballot anyway but Martin should be first ballot for 2030 but we will see the leftovers from the voting period. I see the moderns going back to five candidates by at least 2028.

     First Ballot Picks Looking Ahead

     2026 — Brees, Fitz* Belichick
     2027 — Gronk, Peterson
     2028 — Brady, Watt*
     2029 — Donald JKelce* Jones*
     2030 — Martin* Rodgers? Kelce? Miller?

     * Might not make 1st ballot induction

     Other notables by 2030

     Witten
     Gore
     Brown
     Sherman
     P Peterson
     Pouncey
     Big Ben
     Jordan?
     T Smith?

     Haha … gonna be a mess! The HOF needs to correct the voting quickly

120. Paul on February 24, 2025 at 2:22 pm

     Hall does not want large classes of 7 or 8..I don’t see any return to 5 moderns anytime in future, its more likely 4+2 = 6 that we might see by 2027… thats the small hall vs large hall compromise

     As to future elections and first ballots…

     2026 — Brees, Fitz, Belichick (voter have already indicated strong support for all three
     2027 — Gronk, Peterson (seem lock)
     2028 — Brady, Watt* (both lock)
     2029 — Donald JKelce (both already have support from voters)… Jones-very unlikely..looks like slot here for Eli/BenR
     2030 — Martin* Rodgers? Kelce? Miller?…will not get four, lots depends on whether last three have teams interested, will not know for a few months…my guess is that Rodgers will find a home as some team will take a flyer on him, KC will soon need to make decision on Kelce due to deadlines for 2025 bonus, I suspect Miller is done…

121. Andy p on February 24, 2025 at 4:41 pm

     Paul you want to know something out of all the Wide Receivers on the 1970s 1980s 1990s and 2000s All Decade Team Torry Holt is the only one not in

122. Andy p on February 24, 2025 at 4:52 pm

     Here’s Clark Judge’s recent article on Talk of Fame saying what the Pro Football Hall of Fame got right with the vote

     https://talkoffametwo.com/nfl/pro-football-vote-2025-class

123. Paul on February 25, 2025 at 2:22 pm

     Jason Peters officially retires, was not on active roster during 2024 season so would be first eligible for class of 2029-not likely to be 1st ballot, but has strong case for eventual election with profile of 2(4)/9/SB/all decade

124. Paul on February 25, 2025 at 2:45 pm

     While T Kelce announced he’s coming back for 2025 and Chiefs looking to rework his current contract with 2025 as final year (likely add 1-2 dead years to spread cap hit) as they have March 15 deadline to pay $11m bonus..does not seem they are considering releasing for cap savings in 2025…removes him from our class of 2030 contenders list…still waiting on Rodgers outcome-may not come for a while, Jets will pre-designate as June release allowing him to talk to other teams..but will any be interested, seems like someone likely will as always one looking for vet QB thinking he puts them over the top…..

125. Paul on February 26, 2025 at 3:44 pm

     LAR, NYG,LVR,MIN, PIT,CLE,TEN,IND all seem to be teams in need of QB, not saying Rodgers is a fit for all as some will look at draft and options via TA/trade (Stafford)..but once that “music” stops it does seem if he wants to continue to play, seems he does, he likely has a place somwhere. Oddsmakers are suggesting LAR (after Stafford likely trade), LVR (twin with Sanders), PITT (seems unlikely fit to me) and IND (one year play/mentor role) as most likely.

     Only real point here is that seems very unlikely he’s going to be a class of 2030 first ballot PFHOF contender

126. Paul on February 27, 2025 at 12:30 pm

     and if Rodgers and JKelce return in 2025, it would make Zack Martin the only first ballot for class of 2030 with real chance at 1st ballot elected…unless Von Miller??? Other eventual PFHOFs will likely be first eligible for 2030 not none likely elected 1st ballot

127. Marie on February 27, 2025 at 1:57 pm

     My way to early Class of 2026, based on a call of ONLY 6: Drew Brees, Torry Holt, Larry Fitzgerald, Luke Kuechly, Bill Belichick and Ken Anderson.

     So 4 moderns plus 1 Senior and 1 Coach. I do agree with you, Paul, I think the day of 7 or 8 classes are gone. If only 4 get in again next year, I expect war with the voters, but I do not think they will adjust anything until at least the Class of 2027, give it one more year.

128. Paul on February 27, 2025 at 2:50 pm

     at present I don’t see any result for class of 2026 that gets us 4 modern + 2, as its still the same math that got us just 3+1 for 2025..and if BillB plus Kraft are finalists, there is ZERO hope for any senior as not enough voters to get 3 of 5 elected.. and if by some miracle voters figure out a way to gather enough votes to get 4 modern its hard to believe it would include 2 WRs..seems very likely Fritz will force Holt to wait until 2027.

129. Robert ewing on March 3, 2025 at 2:58 pm

     Most likely it will depend on who the nominees are in the senior coach and contributor categories

     Like I said a while back see more seniors elected who played between the 70s and the 90s

130. Andy p on March 3, 2025 at 4:48 pm

     Robert good to see you back I thought you quit I noticed your Facebook account is gone did you see my feelings about the class

131. Robert on March 3, 2025 at 7:14 pm

     Yes I did andy and I want to set the record straight on a few things

     1. I dont think it had to do with deion sanders as much as people think most likely think I think there were years in which it was hard for voters to select 5 guys it just seems to me that they picked 5 names some deserving some not deserving

     2. Even if the old voting was in place I doubt tyrer would have gotten in for a whole host of reasons

     3. What exactly does Porters family have to do with HOF elections

     4. I believe the time for electing pre 60s players has come and gone and they need to start getting seniors in whi played between the 70s and 90s

132. Andy p on March 3, 2025 at 7:56 pm

     Robert let me explain what Porter’s family has to do with the election I bet they’ve heard the complaints too

133. Robert ewing on March 4, 2025 at 1:00 am

     Andy did you see this: https://talkoffametwo.com/nfl/hall-of-fame-voting-changes I’d be OK with this

134. Andy p on March 4, 2025 at 2:01 am

     Robert yes I did see it I check talk of fame everyday

135. Paul on March 4, 2025 at 9:30 am

     “Robert let me explain what Porter’s family has to do with the election I bet they’ve heard the complaints too”

     Let’s not assume anything about his family, in fact out of respect for their privacy let’s keep them out of our conversations, and ignore/push back on anything we see on social media that refers to them

     And Robert, it has a lot to do with Deion who made numerous and strategic comments regarding Hall elections and size of classes repeatedly since 2020-its naive to thinks his frequent public comments on various sports media outlets, interviews, podcasts and on social media were not a factor-in fact impact has been mentioned by numerous voters, he was not the only one but in terms of high profile public repeated comments he clearly had influence towards hall changing the rules.

     and I am not even sure what this means “I think there were years in which it was hard for voters to select 5 guys it just seems to me that they picked 5 names some deserving some not deserving “… all 50 voters always had the opportunity to vote no for anyone in the final 5 modern where they needed 80%..clearly majority of voters did not have issue with the final 5 modern in recent elections (while over the years, including class of 2024, they certainly used their decisions not to vote for seniors, coaches and contributors who in some years were not elected as as standalone candidates did not achieve 80% from full committee)

136. Robert ewing on March 4, 2025 at 1:58 pm

     I’ll stick to my opinions and leave it there

137. Paul on March 4, 2025 at 4:34 pm

     We can disagree on the order (some getting in before others) but frankly when it comes to the modern finalists elected in recent years I can’t think of one who was not deserving..could have some waited longer, sure…but that’s a different debate (order)

     Love to the the case made for any recent modern PFHOFer elected that shows they were not deserving of the honor-ever

138. Brian wolf on March 5, 2025 at 4:24 pm

     Sorry Paul, but I dont think Sam Mills, Steve Atwater, Kurt Warner, Devin Hester and Bryant Young were deserving.

     I am happy for their families but felt they were just short. Very close though, because they all had great careers. Subjective choices but there are many players I would put in over them.

139. Paul on March 6, 2025 at 6:56 pm

     Well Atwater, Bryant, Hester have multiple all pro plus all decade (Hester also on NFL 100th anniversary team) and Warner had 2x MVP plus went to 3 SBs with two different teams and has SB MVP – so they certainly match up with resumes of other PFHOFers