Announcement day has arrived, we’re less than 12 hours from knowing who has made the cut. I’m not sure if we’ll find out which of the 15 finalists make the cut to 10 in advance of the 5:30 announcement show or not, but hopefully you’ll check back with us here for more discussion around this year’s class.
And, of course, our Class of 2013 predictions, which we promise will be posted a lot sooner than November this time around.
Below are the final 2012 hall of fame class predictions that we’ve been able to scrape from the comments–let me know (tony(at)zoneblitz.com or in the comments section) if you’d like to be added to the list…
| Zoneblitz | Martin | Dawson | Roaf | Reed | Parcells | Stanfel | Butler |
| Billy | Martin | Dawson | Carter | Reed | Haley | Stanfel | Butler |
| Brad | Martin | Dawson | Roaf | Reed | Kennedy | Stanfel | Butler |
| Paul | Martin | Dawson | Roaf | Reed | Kennedy | Stanfel | Butler |
| BSLO | Martin | Dawson | Parcells | Reed | Kennedy | Stanfel | Butler |
| Robert Ewing | Martin | Doleman | Roaf | Reed | Haley | Butler | |
| Chris | Martin | Dawson | Doleman | Reed | Kennedy | Stanfel | Butler |
| boknows34 | Martin | Dawson | Roaf | Reed | Kennedy | Stanfel | Butler |
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Cut down from 15 to 10 is announced during the selection show which starts at 530p EST
I’m with Brad and Paul.
Martin, Dawson, Roaf, Reed, Kennedy, Stanfel, Butler is my prediction. If there’s a surprise I think it might be Eddie D.
Can you please add me to the list Tony. Much appreciated.
Oh well I got five right
Butler, Dawson, Doleman, Kennedy, Martin and Roaf is the Class of 2012.
Stanfel got snubbed.
I haven’t been here for awhile. :) Congrats to Brad for getting in his favorite Jet player in. :) Or would that be Mrs. Kraft’s player, RIP. It’s all politics, right LOL! Roaf was another no-brainer pick.
But sorry, the rest make me want to puke!!! Not because they don’t maybe deserve it SOMEDAY but because some better choices IMO have been getting the shaft for decades. Maybe they should have a more open process like baseball. At least you’d have a measuring stick as too how far your favorite player must go.
Most of the guys they chose feel like hall of fringe picks to me. I’d like to know how their election evolved. Maybe we wouldn’t want to know. LOL!!
I just thought it was time to cool it for these guys. Possibly they got lucky that the Committee has no interest to look back past a certian point? Any who, without strong first time selections, I thought for sure this would be the year to revisit the older folks that have strong support in their communities.
Everyone knows some of the ones I’m talking about. What, no Wide Reciever again?? Why keep wasting their time on Brown, Reed, and Carter? What about Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch, Carmichael, Harold Jackson, Stanley Morgan, Mark Bros or Rod Smith to name a few. I can think of a few Raiders of Super Bowls past too. I’d put Roger Craig in the HOF in a heartbeat. He redefined the RB position which led to the Thurman Thomas’s and Marshall Faulks’. One hell of a hard running shifty player. Actually at about the same time, James Brooks was much the same but built like a scatback but had great durability and toughness. Two guys before Craig that had power, catching ability and breakaway moves were Chuck Foreman and Chuck Muncie. Both great IMO and trendsetters. Neither given the recognition these rightly deserve.
Oh, and you don’t think that if Steeler’s owner Art Rooney Jr. died this year that a Steelers player wouldn’t of made it to the Hall . Oh ya, they got their usual one plus one in the HOF this year so who knows. While Al Davis’s fresh body rolls in his grave. “They just keep giving me the business” he’s saying. And what about players Al’s nemisis the great Orange Crush Defenses?
Give me a break. Get over the damn Fifties already too!! Put in Chiefs great, Johnny Robinson and Jerry Kramer and you can forget the Sixties too, until they expand the choices enough to give fair representation to other decades. Those two decades are so over-picked it’s become boorish to me.
So it’s one more year of HOF disenchantment for me and I assume a few others that grew up in the 1970’s.
Tony, Good hearing from you. Thanks for coming back. I too am curious about some of these selections. I don’t think any of the guys who got in are necessarily undeserving, but I do think some of the guys who got left out were more deserving than those who got in. I hope to ask around a bit on that. Don’t know if I’ll learn anything or not.
Hope you keep stopping by.
Tony #2, a thought or two here:
–I actually thought all five modern era candidates were most deserving. I don’t see them as “fringe.” But the committee’s inability to clear out the WR logjam is a problem.
–many of the names you’re recommending are Senior eligible only. And I very much thought both 50s era Senior this time should have been elected. Jack Butler rightly was, but Dick Stanfel got screwed. And they’re not the only 50s players who should be in: Stanfel, Jimmy Patton, Bobby Dillon, Mac Speedie, Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Duane Putnam, Dick Barwegan, and Gene Brito belong, too, for starters. Not to mention Al Wistert and Riley Matheson from the 40s, and Lavvie Dilweg, Verne Lewellen, and Duke Slater from the 20s. And several 60s players besides Johnny Robinson and Jerry Kramer should be in: Chuck Howley, Maxie Baughan, Joe Fortunato, Larry Grantham, Tommy Davis, Ed Budde, Walt Sweeney, Del Shofner, Dick Schafrath, and Jim Tyrer should also be in, among others. And of course I can get on board with some (but not all) of your 70s names: Pearson, Branch, Carmichael, and Jackson for sure, but guys like Cliff Branch, Lemar Parrish, Randy Gradishar, and Robert Brazile also.
Bachslunch, I respect your football knowledge, especially regarding the older generations of players. I believe I sent a letter of support for Butler and some of the others you named. My only quip is that the number of 50’s and 60’s players far exceeds other decades. I know it’s a crying shame that so many players will be dead and buried by the time they make the HOF.
How about we make a list of the Top Ten players we think are most deserving of being in the HOF immediately? If we could come to an agreement we could send a letter to the HOF suggest immediate entrance. That would be interesting. I’m not sure if we could agree though. LOL!
A top ten list of those not in Canton? I would be open to that. For modern era, Carter, Brown, Reed and Shields have to be at the top.
For the Seniors, this is whom I would put in my top ten:
#1 Johnny Robinson
#2 Al Wistert
#3 Jerry Kramer
#4 Chuck Howley
#5 Randy Gradishar
#6 Maxie Baughan
#7 Robert Brazile
#8 Ed Meador
#9 Walt Sweeney
#10 George Kunz
Honorable Mentions: Dick Schafrath, Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Cliff Branch and Bobby Dillon.
In my opinion, nominating any of those two seniors from my top ten list would be a huge step forward in cleaning up the logjam.
Tony: I applaud your passion and interest however such a letter directly to the HOF will make no difference. The HOF has bylaws and procedures in place for the election of HOFers in which there exists a selection committee of 44 people who review and vote on the election, the actual HOF and its staff have no input into the election process. We could easy work on a list of deserving modern and senior candidates and send to all the 44 voters as a means of impressing them our recommendations, but keep in mind these voters (whose names and affiliations appear right on the HOF website) each get hundreds of such letters every year.
Lets remember if there are say 20 deserving senior candidates, only two can be nominated each year – so if we assume that list does not change with additional inclusions it will take at least 10 years to clean up that backlog.
And as to the modern candidates, we have 10 finalists from this year and lets say we add another 5 deserving new candidates each year; with the selection of five per year it will take years to clean up that backlog. For example if we add 5 in 2013 to the 10 remaining 2012 finalists selecting 5 per year will take three years (2013-2015) to get them elected, meantime another 15 become eligible. Ugggggg it is a terrible cycle to be in.
The basic problem is the number game: 5+2 slots each year; 15+20 deserving players each year.
Well there is reform like I suggested in another post.
Or, if you wish to join me, I will be sending emails to the Senior Committee campaigning for Robinson and Wistert. If you have any other ideas, you could campaign to the seniors but those two are my biggest priorities.
There really have been many great articles, discussions and lists on Zoneblitz through the years. And I particularly enjoy a good list. LOL
So I went back into my oldie moldy archive to retrieve names of great players. What I found was a list of deserving HOF to be players compiled with the input of the Zoneblitz participants be used Senior Committee to consider for the HOF. I wonder if we still feel the same way? Maybe some of y’all never did like some players on the list? I know I would never support Floyd Little or Dick LeBeau or Jack Butler.
I misspoke regarding Butler. He did not get my support in the letter. I have that list too. Any way this is a good list to make a Top Ten list from and I’m posting so the names remain in our minds.
THE NFL SENIOR LIST
OFFENSE
RT – Al Wistert 4/1/40’s
RG – Walt Sweeney 2/9/60’s-70’s
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s
RG – Dick Stanfel 5/5/50’s
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
LT – Winston Hill 0/8/60/70’s
QB – John Brodie 1/2/60-70’s
QB – Darle Lamonica 2/4/60’s
RB – Floyd Little 1/5/60’s-70’s
RE – Billy Wilson 1/6/50’s
E – Billy Howton 2/4/50’s-60’s
SE – Pete Retzlaff 1/5/60’s
WR – Otis Taylor 2/3/60’s-70’s
WR – Harold Carmichael 0/4/70’s
WR – Drew Pearson 3/3/70’s
WR – Harold Jackson 1/5/70’s-80’s
LE – Mac Speedie 3/2/40’s-50’s
LE – Lavvie Dilweg 5/0/20’s-30’s
DEFENSE
RDE – Harvey Martin 1/4/70’s-80’s
RDE – Jim Marshall 0/2/60’s-70’s
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s
LDE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s
LDE – Gene Brito 3/5/50’s
ROLB – Robert Brazile 2/7/70’s-80’s
RLB – Chris Hanburger 4/9/60’s-70’s
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s
RILB – Randy Gradishar 2/7/70’s-80’s *
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s
LLB – Joe Fortunato 3/5/50’s-60’s
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
DB – Jack Butler 3/4/50’s
CB/R – Abe Woodson 2/5/60’s
CB – Dick Lebeau 0/3/60’s
LCB – Lemar Parrish 1/8/70’s
LCB – Erich Barnes 1/6/60’s
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s
SS/FS – Dick Anderson 2/3/70’s
SS/FS – Jake Scott 2/5/70’s
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s
I’m in support of a Nose Guard/Tackle one day making it into the HOF. There importance has been greatly overlooked IMO. I believe Curly Culp was the first ever in the Chief’s 3-4 Defense. Any NT deserving of the HOF?
They say a player should be in the HOF if the story of football would be significantly diminished without mentioning that players name.
Top Ten to the HOF
Johnny Robinson – best team of the AFL; 35-1record when he has an int
Jerry Kramer- best team of the NFL-1960’s; great professional; made the lead block for Starr in the Ice Bowl.
Billy Kilmer- a remarkable story; important part of the Redskins Over-the -hill Gangs success in the 1970’s; Part of a great rivalry with the Dallas Cowboys.
Drew Pearson- Star WR for America’s Team through the 1970’s; caught the famous “Hail Mary” pass vs Vikings in playoffs.
Cliff Branch- Thrilling star WR for Al Davis’s highly successful Oakland Raiders; exemplified Al’s philosopy of going deep on Offense.
Randy Gradishar- LB and original member of the Denver Broncos “Orange Crush” Defense; a great athlete and a tackling machine. Many time Pro Bowler
Jim Marshall – Undersized Minnesota Viking DE; was the Iron Man with an incredible streak of 302 consecutive games played; key member of one of the best Defenses of the day, “Purple People Eaters”. Had infamous run the wrong way . Many sacks and fumble recoveries.
Mick Tinglehoff – Best Center of the 1960’s; never missed a game in his 240 game career for the Minnesota Vikings. 6 time Pro Bowler and 5 time All-Pro; anchored the line for 4 Super Bowl teams.
Al Wistert – the words of Kyle? “A two-way tackle, he was also the captain of the Eagles teams that won back-to-back titles in ‘48 and ‘49. He was first or second team All Pro in all but his rookie year, and certainly would have made more Pro Bowls if only they had started playing them before his next to last season. He is on the 1940’s All Decade Team, and only one other Tackle from that team (George Connor who played mostly on the 50’s) has been enshrined. Finally, he was one of the pioneers of the shoulder block, which today has completely replaced the cross-body block. ”
Harvey “Too Mean” Martin – Star player along with HOFer Randy White of the Dallas Cowboys’, “Doomsday Day,” in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. The DE was Co-MVP with DT White who devasted the Denver Broncos in the 1977 Super Bowl. He was an intimidating sack machine. Off the field the Dallas icon was of the nicer men you could meet. RIP. He led Dallas to 3 straight NFC Championship games in the 1980’s. Famous in Texas for the “Don’t Mess with Texas” ad where he picked up 55 gallon drum with one arm.
“Billy Kilmer- a remarkable story; important part of the Redskins Over-the -hill Gangs success in the 1970?s; Part of a great rivalry with the Dallas Cowboys.”
I don’t know about this one. I am ok with letting quarterbacks in who didn’t win a Super Bowl. However, Kilmer went to just one Pro Bowl, two All Pros and the stats could be better. Only six more touchdowns than interceptions.
I would think John Brodie, Daryle Lamonica and Ken Anderson have much better arguments.
Good points Corey. Can’t disagree. I actually prefer John Brodie of this group. But I thought if all things considered equal (all were top QB’s for a period of time) Kilmer’s rise to fame (story) was the most intriging. Kilmer was a journeyman for losing teams for so long before he becomes this really good QB on an over the hill team led by an eccentric HOF Coach in George Allen. And than he’s a major part this huge rivalry.
Heck, the guy was so gritty and competitive that was willing to play at RB just to get on the field. Honestly as much as I’d like to see these QB’s make it, I only see Anderson getting in the HOF along with some QB’s not mention named Jim Plunkett and Phil Simms.
” I only see Anderson getting in the HOF along with some QB’s not mention named Jim Plunkett and Phil Simms.”
I would prefer if Jim Plunkett was kept out of Canton. The argument starts and ends, at least in my opinion, with the two rings.
He had a career 52.5% completion percentage, 198 INT, 164 TD. Not one Pro Bowl and Not one All Pro team.
Come on guys! I know there are a lot Plunkett supporters. LOL! Plunkett career was night and day. It would be like if David Carr came back to lead a team to 2 Super Bowls. It just doesn’t happen. Plunk was so much fun to watch. He was a great QB for periods of his career. No doubt he’s a close call for the HOF. IMO as close as Kurt Warner.
Kurt Warner has four Pro Bowls, two All Pro selections, two NFL MVP’s, the top three passing performances in Super Bowl history. Made passing yards in a single playoff campaign. Warner has a way higher completion percentage and QB rating. Not to mention, Warner actually threw more touchdowns than interceptions in his career.
I respect your opinion if that is what you believe; but I am just stating mine as well, and in my opinion Kurt Warner is many miles ahead of Jim Plunkett in terms of being worthy of a bust in Canton.
Corey,
Yes, I do believe in my opinion. LOL I don’t know about miles? Do you agree with anything else I said? Can you at least admit that you enjoyed watching some of Plunkett’s games. :)
Good points about Warner’s achievements but who care’s about stats between these two players? I got one, Super Bowl wins, Plunkett 2 Warner 1. Other than an aging Cliff Branch I can’t even remember Plunkett’s WR Corp. How good were the WR’s Warner played with? Maybe 3 HOFers not counting stud Anquan Boldin. :)
As a Raiders fan even I can admit Jim Plunkett is simply not a HOFer and I agree with Corey that Warner is miles ahead in terms of being worthy of Canton. If there is one Raider that should be in the HOF but isn’t I’d vote for Cliff Branch.
Kurt Warner was an undrafted grocery bagger. And for him to accomplish what Corey said, is unreal. Yes Kurt’s career was up and down, but Jim’s wasn’t(just A LITTLE sarcasm), but when Kurt played, he was as good as any QB. Start naming players who are eligible for the HOF that have two league MVPs and aren’t in. Because you can’t. Yes after he started from 1999-2001, he didn’t fair well in 2002 and 2003. Is it Kurt’s fault the Giants went with Eli after he went 5-4 vs Eli’s 1-6? I don’t think so. Anyway, when did Jim ever have MVP type seasons? If you consider a season of 20 TD’s and 18 Int’s to be a MVP type season, than he had one. Kurt also has 100 TD passes for two different teams. Jim doesn’t even have more than 80 for any of the 3 teams he played for. I understand they are completely different eras. I am just adding that to show how “funny” it is that we are even having a debate on who was better.
“Corey,
Yes, I do believe in my opinion. LOL I don’t know about miles? Do you agree with anything else I said? Can you at least admit that you enjoyed watching some of Plunkett’s games.”
Plunkett was before my time. I am 20. He retired in 1986, five years before my birth in 1991.
“Good points about Warner’s achievements but who care’s about stats between these two players? I got one, Super Bowl wins, Plunkett 2 Warner 1. Other than an aging Cliff Branch I can’t even remember Plunkett’s WR Corp. How good were the WR’s Warner played with? Maybe 3 HOFers not counting stud Anquan Boldin”
It’s a team effort. So both of them have Super Bowl MVP’s. Keep in mind so do Doug Williams and Mark Rypien. Super Bowl MVP, while a nice achievement, doesn’t warrant a bust in Canton by itself. Fran Tarkenton said it best when he said that quarterbacks don’t win championships. Teams win championships.
I agree with BoKnows that Cliff Branch should be in and I also support Ray Guy.
I thank Brad also for backing up my point.
I support Shane Lechler over Ray Guy as the better candidate and IMO the better punter . But that is not down grading Ray Guy at all. He should be in. I just think Shane is incredible.
You get no argument from me as far as Lechler being H.O.F. worthy is concerned.
Hard to find any pure special teams player who has a better candidacy. If he punts at least 2 more seasons and he can get 2nd team twice or one first, than his resume to me will be hard for the Hall to pass up.
Tony P., I for one think if “they” say “a player should be in the HOF if the story of football would be significantly diminished without mentioning that players name,” they’re full of it. Two reasons:
–who is writing this so-called “history?” It may be in-depth, sketchy, or biased, and I’m uncomfortable endorsing this approach as a result.
–regardless, I think it’s going to be a challenge to “write the story” of U.S. pro football without mentioning Jay Berwanger, Alan Ameche, or Doug Williams. Do any of these three belong in the HoF? I don’t see why.
Of your list of players, I’m on board with several but not all as HoF worthy — the ones I’m not are Billy Kilmer, Jim Marshall, and Harvey Martin.
As far as a HoF deserving nose tackle, my thought is that Fred Smerlas with postseason honors of 3(1AP)/5/none might have the best argument. Curley Culp’s 1(1AP)/6/none has one more pro bowl but two fewer 1st team all pro selections, so I’d place him next in line.
randy grandshiar should be a senior nominee for 2013, we need more linebackers!!!!
I would be accepting of Gradishar as a Senior Nominee.
Bachs, why are you not on board with Jim Marshall? Is it the two Pro Bowls? Is it the wrong way play? The Vikings ended up winning that game.
He was a true iron man and he recovered more fumbles than anybody in history.
I think Marshall suffers a few issues: no all pro selections (and only 2 pro bowls), there are already two other DL Vikings (Eller and Page) in HOF and Marshall did not play well in the four SB losses.
Corey, Paul touches on many of the issues I have with Jim Marshall. In 20 years, Marshall went to only two pro bowls and was named a 1st team all pro zero times by any organization. A 0/2/none postseason profile would be by far the worst of any HoF d-linemen were Marshall elected, worse even than Fred Dean’s 2(2AP)/4/none and Richard Dent’s 2(1AP)/4/none. Marshall was not even the best DE on his own team most of his career — Carl Eller was. And he was generally no better than the third-best d-lineman on his own team, after Eller and Alan Page. He is credited with 126 sacks and 30 fumble recoveries in his career, but that averages out to about 6 sacks and 1.5 fumble recoveries per season — not exactly earth-shattering. Marshall also reportedly did not play well in the postseason, though I can’t corroborate that as I haven’t seen film on this.
I don’t hold Marshall’s wrong-way run against him. I’m sure every HoF player had a screw-up at some point.
Folks who compare Marshall’s long consecutive game streak to that of Cal Ripken, Jr’s and say that’s therefore enough of an argument to get Marshall in the Pro Football HoF conveniently ignore that Ripken’s career was at HoF level with or without his streak. Marshall has nothing else besides this, and in fact a better comparison from baseball would be Everett Scott, who also had a hugely long consecutive game streak and was a good player but no HoF-er.
And Vikes fans who whine about Marshall not being in the HoF while ignoring Mick Tingelhoff really puzzle me. Tingelhoff has a fine profile of 7(5AP)/6/none and a consecutive game streak nearly as long as Marshall’s. Tingelhoff is the player such folks should be outraged about here.
The way I see it: Somebody is either a Hall of Famer or they aren’t. I don’t support Gary Larsen for the Hall but I am a Marshall supporter.
Also, Marshall may not have played well in the four Super Bowls but that doesn’t stop me from not supporting him.
I would put both Marshall and Tingelhoff in, for the record. Then again, I cannot speak for Vikings fans, since I am a Bears fan.
Corey: In my view (and I suspect shared by the majority of voters) Marshall is not a HOFer.
Corey, I guess the question to ask is: why do you support Jim Marshall for the HoF?
More than just the iron man streak.
He recovered more fumbles than anybody else in NFL history.
If it is true that he has 126 sacks in his career that is also a very strong argument and considering the era that he played in I would say that is impressive.
He was somebody who was a really good pass rusher and led the Vikings in sacks in their first six years in the NFL. It seems to me that he wasn’t really a compiler but rather he was really good over a long period of time.