As we look ahead to the 2025 Pro Football Hall of Fame class, the list of potential inductees includes an interesting mix of first-year eligible players and returning finalists who have come close in previous years. This class is poised to generate significant debate, as due to overall career length (Kuechly), hot and cold regular season performance vs postseason heroics (Manning) and position (Vinatieri), there are arguments for and against basically all the first year candidates. Add in a list of at least six candidates that have made the final five cut list in the last two years, with Jared Allen making it in 2023 but not 2024, and it shapes up to be an interesting class for sure.
2025 First-Year Hall of Fame Eligibles
- Luke Kuechly: Kuechly, with his seven Pro Bowl selections, five First-Team All-Pro nods, and 2013 Defensive Player of the Year award, leads this year’s list of first-time eligible players. Though his career was cut short by injury, his impact on the field was undeniable, making him a strong contender for first-ballot induction–and the election of Patrick Willis signifies that career length isn’t as big of a deal as some might think.
- Eli Manning: Manning’s Hall of Fame credentials are well-known, with two Super Bowl MVPs and top-10 rankings in passing yards and touchdowns. His postseason heroics, particularly in defeating the Patriots twice, could secure his place in the Hall on his first try.
- Marshawn Lynch: Known for his punishing running style and “Beast Mode” persona, Lynch rushed for over 10,000 yards and 85 touchdowns in his career. His memorable playoff performances, including the iconic “Beast Quake” run, make him a compelling candidate.
- Earl Thomas: A key member of the Seahawks’ “Legion of Boom,” Thomas was a seven-time Pro Bowler and a three-time First-Team All-Pro. His ball-hawking ability and leadership in the secondary played a critical role in Seattle’s Super Bowl XLVIII victory.
- Adam Vinatieri: Vinatieri is arguably the most clutch kicker in NFL history, with four Super Bowl rings and multiple game-winning kicks in the biggest moments. As the NFL’s all-time leading scorer, his induction feels inevitable.
- Terrell Suggs: Suggs, a dominant force on the Ravens’ defense, ranks eighth all-time in sacks with 139 and won Defensive Player of the Year in 2011. His physical style and leadership helped Baltimore secure two Super Bowl titles.
- Travis Frederick: Frederick was a five-time Pro Bowler and a key piece of the Cowboys’ dominant offensive line. His sudden retirement due to illness cut short a promising career, but his impact during his time in the league was significant.
- Darren Sproles: Sproles, one of the most versatile players in NFL history, was a dynamic return specialist, rusher, and receiver. His ability to make plays in multiple phases of the game earned him a spot in the NFL’s All-Decade Team of the 2010s.
Returning Finalists
- Torry Holt: Holt, who was one of the final five candidates eliminated in 2024, remains a top contender for induction. As a key member of the “Greatest Show on Turf,” Holt’s career was defined by consistency and excellence, amassing over 13,000 receiving yards and 74 touchdowns.
- Reggie Wayne: Like Holt, Wayne was also among the final five eliminated in 2024. His connection with Peyton Manning and his clutch performances in big games make him one of the top wide receivers not yet in the Hall.
- Antonio Gates: Gates, the greatest tight end in NFL history in terms of touchdown receptions, was another final 10 finalist in 2024. His athleticism and ability to create mismatches made him a nightmare for defenses and a cornerstone of the Chargers’ offense for years.
- Willie Anderson: Anderson, a four-time Pro Bowler and three-time First-Team All-Pro, was also in the final 10 in 2024. As one of the most dominant right tackles of his era, Anderson’s candidacy continues to gain momentum.
- Darren Woodson: Woodson, a key member of the Cowboys’ defense during their 1990s dynasty, also made it to the final five eliminated in 2024. His physicality and versatility at safety earned him three Super Bowl rings and five Pro Bowl selections.
- Jared Allen: After being in the final 10 in 2023 but not in 2024, Allen remains a strong candidate. With 136 career sacks, Allen was one of the most feared pass rushers of his era, and his consistent production over 12 seasons makes him a likely Hall of Famer.
- Jahri Evans: Evans, a six-time Pro Bowler and four-time First-Team All-Pro, was a dominant force on the Saints’ offensive line. His blocking helped New Orleans to multiple playoff appearances, including their Super Bowl XLIV win.
- Rodney Harrison: Harrison, a hard-hitting safety known for his physical style, was a key part of the Patriots’ dynasty in the early 2000s. With two Super Bowl rings and four All-Pro selections, his candidacy continues to be debated.
- Fred Taylor: Taylor’s career numbers, including nearly 12,000 rushing yards, have kept him in the conversation, though injuries during his career may have impacted his chances. His consistency and explosiveness at running back make him a strong candidate.
- Eric Allen: Allen, with 54 career interceptions and six Pro Bowl selections, was one of the best cornerbacks of his era. His leadership in the secondary and ability to make big plays in critical moments keep him in the discussion for induction.
Semifinalists From 2024
The list of semifinalists cut before the final round of voting in 2024 includes several players who may continue to make a push for the Hall in 2025:
- Steve Smith
- Anquan Boldin
- James Harrison
- Hines Ward
- Ricky Watters
- Vince Wilfork
- Tiki Barber
- London Fletcher
- Eddie George
- Robert Mathis
With another year of no sure thing first year candidates, and a considerable logjam still existing at WR, the 2025 Pro Football Hall of Fame Class debate will undoubtedly be as interesting as the debate for the 2024 class–and that’s just the modern day candidates, as obviously the senior & contributor candidates are also hotly debated.
Leave your comments below on where you think the class debate will head!
Loading ...
I have a feeling this could be a clearing of the backlog of candidates year with possibly no first timers
Possible outcome – although LukeK has a strong resume, will be interesting to see how voters assess his case
Agreed 100% could he have a similar wait to willis time will tell
Travis Frederick 1/5 is a name that will be soon forgotten. You can argue he was on track to be a HOFer but IMO that’s all. He didn’t show the dominance of the only short career Center in the HOF, Dwight Stephenson 4/5. We can’t put every player who shows flashes early in their careers into the HOF. lol Sorry, injuries rob great players of their immortality. If it didn’t Billy Sims would be in the HOF. And it’s ok. :)
I don’t know what to think about Robert Mathis now that his sidekick Freeney is in the HOF. I suppose they can justify keeping him out based on his accolades not measuring up to Freeney but as stated before I had him slightly ahead of him. I would of rather seen neither of them in the HOF than have both in just in the same way Swann and Stallworth.
I don’t think Jim Plunkett should be in the HOF. Is there really that much difference between he and Eli Manning? Put Plunkett in Mannings time or vise versa. I think they are very much the same. I’d favor Plunkett slightly.
I think Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt are products on their system. I know I’ll get pushback. :) I’d take a player like Mark Clayton or Gary Clark over Wayne’s elevated numbers many years as a WR 2 alongside Marvin Harrison.
Believe it or not I’m in full agreement with what all you said about holt and Wayne 100% Tony P my question to you is If you had to decide between Clayton or Clark who would it be and why
Thanks Tony …
im only going to say this 1 time and this will be the only time ill say this during this timeframe i am mainly focused on seniors from the 70s to the 90s while some of you are mainly focused on the super seniors
I think it’s possible we don’t see any first ballot Hall of Famer I think it’ll be primarily a clean up year and we won’t see any first ballot Hall of Famers until Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald in 2026 you know what they say life is full of surprises
Resume of Eli isn’t same as Plunkett – one has 2x SB MVP, pro bowl selections, seasons in top 5 of passing stats and top 10 career passing stats – the other doesn’t
I would agree with Paul- Eli Manning was a better QB than Plunkett. Having said that, I am on the fence with Eli being inducted into the HOF.
You forgot Marshal Yanda. He will for sure make the HOF as a modern candidate.
Yanda is deserving, but being a guard, we will see how long it will take him to be elected. Evans will probably get voted in first, yet you never know?
Despite having Odell Beckham Jr. in five of his last seven seasons with the Giants, Eli Manning led his team to only one playoff berth(2016) while compiling a 39-61 record counting postseason as starter. Not exactly helping his HOF resume but he was clutch in postseason–like Plunkett–has over 120 career starting victories, counting postseason and longevity to help his passing numbers.
Beating Brady in two SBs helps also, but the defense for NY was outstanding. Will it be enough?
Probably so, but he should wait awhile. Those last seven seasons were rough, which is why I don’t support him, but it’s very close. Most QBs would love to win two SBs in nine years.
Brian would you be in favor of a clearing of the backlog in terms of modern era players
Paul may be right about Kuechly getting in first ballot and is deserving but if Willis had to wait, he probably should till next year. Even Gates had to wait, so I see another clearing out this year. The big question is, will Holt or Wayne get their chance this year?
With this era of inflated receiver numbers, more players are reaching the 11,000-14,000 yard milestones, and if they don’t truly separate themselves, hard to determine who is deserving.
Right now alone, active receivers like Keenan Allen, Davante Adams, Mike Evans, DeAndre Hopkins, Julio Jones, Tyreek Hill and Stephon Diggs are adding to over 10,000 yards receiving and when they retire, they will face the same problem as the current list of eligibles.
If Holt, Wayne, Smith or Ward don’t get in this year, Fitzgerald will be the next one elected. Antonio Brown is coming up soon as well, so the voters have a lot to think about. Of the active group for the future, it’s easy to see Julio Jones getting elected, but Evans and Adams far surpass him in TDs, which will help their cases. I feel if Tyreek Hill passes the 2000 yard barrier in a season–whether this year or next–it will help get him elected first ballot, but we shall see?
I see Gates Holt and Allen as “locks” for class of 2025–real questions and potential surprises (as every election has one) lie with slots #4 and 5 with LukeK and returning 2024 final 10 players WAnderson DWoodson in the mix, but also someone among 11-15 from 2024 could jump the queue. Just don’t see opportunity for election by other first ballot candidates or other returning/new semifinalists..
Brian I think Holt and Wayne both get elected clearing the logjam for Fitzgerald to get in next year and Smith becomes a finalist this year and gets elected in the years to come
Here’s what Gary Myers said in response to a tweet saying the voters should meet to discuss the other two cutdowns nominees and semifinalists
The initial list is about 100 candidates that would take a week to discuss discussing the 25 semifinalists would take about 10 hours I think the current setup is perfect
Robert,
Mark Duper was my favorite WR of the duo to watch but Clayton has the better HOF case. That said I’ve come to the realization that neither probably deserves to be in. IMO diminutive players get short shrift no pun intended. lol I could however justify Mark Clayton on the entrance of several other HOFers. If I had to pick one diminutive WR for the HOF it would be Gary Clark oh so slightly over Clayton. When in doubt I like players who have won something. :)
I can envision Plunkett with comparable stats if he played in Eli’s time. What Eli’s stats prove is he played a lot of years in a pass happy League. His regular seasons weren’t anything special.
I said Eli’s regular seasons weren’t special. Probably not accurate. He was good not great and the Giants had several really good seasons. Looking at just all the numbers it’s hard to deny Manning’s entrance into the HOF. But I think most people would agree that it felt like Eli came up short of his potential in a great many years. With 2 SB MVPs we all wanted to crown him for his career. He left us wanting more.
If I picked a smaller receiver for the HOF, it has to be Steve Smith Sr. He was tougher than anyone bigger and has the postseason numbers–and kick/punt return numbers–that surpass other more well known receivers.
I am interested to see if Earl Thomas makes the finalist list this year, along with Jahri Evans. Those two could be dominant at their positions, but Thomas’ career fizzled out once he had problems outside of football.
Today’s announced changes to the voting process are frankly revolutionary. There will undoubtedly be less HOFers moving forward, which appears to have been the intent. The idea that only 3 of 5 nominees from the senior/coach/contributor categories can be elected encourages a repeat of last year’s results: i.e., the exclusion of the contributor nominee and one of the senior nominees. And as concerning as that is, the change to the modern era voting is even more concerns. The Athletic is saying that the cut down votes will be 15 to 10; 10 to 7; and then the top 3 to 5 vote getters from the 7 being elected provided that the candidate receives 80% of the vote. This is essentially going back to the days when Swann, Youngblood, Parcells, Carson, Stephenson, Irving, Hendricks, Al Davis, etc. were voted down in the final vote effectively wasting slots each year and creating the “senior backlog” we all abhor. Simply wild that the board would make this change. I guess we are moving into a new “small hall” era. Deion must be glowing. Wonder how the voters are going to feel–and this is before the new non-voter nomination process is taken into account.
Not quite how I read it Justin I think you and I read it much differently
Robert: How are you viewing it? The NFL.com story is the one mentioning the change in cutdown voting for moderns. Take the following simple hypothetical: 7 candidates and 10 voters with 5 votes each (50 votes total)
Candidate 1 (“Tom Brady” type) gets 10 votes
Candidate 2 (“Aaron Donald type) gets 10 votes
Candidate 3 (“Antonio Gates” type) get 7 votes
Candidates 4-7 split the remaining 23 votes evenly each getting 5 or 6 votes.
Candidates 1 and 2 sail in. Candidate 3 gets in even though he didn’t cross 80% because of the rule that a minimum of 3 are elected each year. Candidates 4-7 wait another year. Two spots are wasted. Think about polarizing candidates like Eli Manning–enough support consistently get him into the final 7, but more than enough critics to keep him below 80% for years potentially wasting a spot year after year after year.
As those of us who frequent this site have repeatedly illustrated, informed individuals can have different opinions when the differences between the candidates are fairly small. Easy to see candidates 3-7 being ranked almost evenly.
in short, I’m confident there will be less HOFers moving forward (which again, the stories state was the point of this change). Everyone can have their own opinion on whether that fact is positive or negative. As a “big hall” guy, I tend to think this is a negative. Interested in everyone else’s opinion.
So, more committees making recommendations just to get shot down by voters? Or do the senior/coach/contributor committees actually vote in the nominations?
I swear some of you love to complain and nitpick every little thing on a daily basis
Robert: I did focus exclusively on the negative. I do like the new screening committees made up of non-voters. I think that will help make sure we don’t have a repeat of Richmond Webb being left off the preliminary ballot multiple times. More voices are a good thing. That said, the rest of the changes are bad from a “big hall” perspective.
I assume your statements means you are a “small hall” person, which is perfectly fine. Lots and lots of people are.
But the PFHOF was already the most exclusive HOF in American pro sports (percentage wise), and these changes make it more exclusive. That isn’t a nitpick. It is highly significant. Some people may like that, including you. I don’t. But of course, no one is actually asking for my opinion. I asked for yours (thank you for providing), and welcome other’s opinions as well.
Nitpick … get a grip Robert, I asked a question. The process doesn’t seem to be too much different but I have to read more.
My bad Brian, I was thinking about older WR’s. Smith has a decent case and could eventually be an example of the 5’9″ snub. :) Like Hines Ward, Smith has a tough guy persona which is admirable. The amount of catches seem a little underwhelming though for the 2000’s. Like Ward only one 100 plus catch season.
I don’t know about the voting. Sounds a little political trying to affect the outcome but still have an appearance of being an open process.
These are huge changes that certainly open up chances for smaller classes and fewer seniors. Adding non-media to the process is welcome opportunity but seems lost when the 50 member (media) selection committee can still decide to focus on players coaches contributors they know because they covered them during their media careers since 2000.not sure collectively the changes make process and outcomes better.
I wouldn’t have a problem with Clayton or Clark but I would make them wait TonyP …
As per voter Frank Cooney, the non-media added as voters to the 9 member senior, coach and contributor committees are:
Seniors-Turney, Wolf; coach-Kirwin, PKing (recently resigned as voter); contributor-Crippen, Czarnecki (recently resigned as voter)
We all have to hope moving forward that the three seniors get nominated at the expense of the coach and contributor nominees … If Kraft were to get voted in for 2025 and Belichick for 2026, that’s only four senior slots out of a possible six, which could happen. Either way, like Justin and Paul explained, despite a shake-up on the committees, voters can still vote these nominations down and recentism can still rule the day. I don’t believe it’s any better Paul, especially if there is pressure to get an owner voted in.
Hopefully, no matter who the five nominees are, the voters will simply vote them in, since the process will go alongside the senior process.
Sorry Super Seniors, you’re chances are put to pasture, unless somehow, the coaches and contributor nominees can be bypassed over the next 6-10 years. Very doubtful …
Class Of 2025 Wishlist
Woodson
Gates
Nalen
Wisniewski ?? (Can a fourth modern make it?)
Lewellen
Wistert
Brito
Prediction
Gates
J Allen
Holt
Kuechly ??
Kraft
Sharpe
K Anderson
I have mixed feelings about the changes
I like having historians and other non media members on the senior coach and contributor committees
Will the nominees semi finalists and finalists continue to be announced same with seniors coaches and contributors
I like coach and contributor being separate again
I don’t like only one senior out of three will be elected
I’m worried this will only increase the senior backlog
I like the waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year
I’ll have to revise my statement when Tom Brady is announced as a Hall of Famer in 2028 at NFL Honors
You can now join your boyhood hero (Joe Montana) your owner (Robert Kraft) your head coach (Bill Belichick) and your tight end (Rob Gronkowski)
The waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year means I’ll see Robert Kraft Bill Belichick and Rob Gronkowski with Gold Jackets when I go to Canton in August 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
I’m going to email the Pro Football Hall of Fame to tell them about my feelings
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever for better or worst
Revised prediction (only because rules and # of slots have changed: LukeK,Gates,Holt,JAllen,DWoodson,SSharpe, MikeH, RKraft
Andy P
Brady and Adam V for 2028?
I hope it’s at least two seniors, Paul
That would be awesome BoKnows34
I feel Kraft, then Belichick–2026, then Wilfork–2027, then Brady, Vinny …
I predict Belichick will coach Philly in 2025, so he may wait …
It won’t be two seniors when there is both a strong coach and a strong contributor among five finalists. Once the committee runs out of strong contributors we would then get two seniors
Boknows I don’t know about Adam Vinatieri he may wait awhile
Brian I don’t think Wilfork’s a Hall of Famer
Paul did you see my comment about my feelings
I think we will be seeing preliminary lists (50)- late September; semifinalists (25)-late November, and finalists (15+5)-late December all announced at those same times for modern, seniors, coaches and contributors
Brian
Swap Wilfork for Gronk in 2027.
Haha … good call BoKnows. Forgot he is eligible and will be first ballot. Hoping Witten would get elected first but its doubtful …
Though it’s a hard site to navigate, interesting, subjective list of top 100 players on the notinthehalloffame website … fan friendly in terms of help ranking players but not a lot of comments that I have seen, unless they were turned off?
Notinthehalloffame Top 30 Players Listed
1) Antonio Gates
2) Luke Kuechly
3) Marshal Yanda
4) LC Greenwood
5) Lavvie Dilweg
6) Torry Holt
7) Roger Craig
8) Earl Thomas
9) Ken Anderson
10) Del Shofner
11) Reggie Wayne
12) Jim Tyrer
13) Terrell Suggs
14) Otis Taylor
15) Maxie Baughan
16) Lemar Parrish
17) Lester Hayes
18) Jared Allen
19) Deron Cherry
20) Ox Emerson
21) Steve Wisniewski
22) Jim Marshall
23) Charlie Conerly
24) Steve Smith Sr
25) Kevin Williams
26) Sterling Sharpe
27) Louis Wright
28) Roman Gabriel
29) Randall Cunningham
30) Tommy Nobis
They rank players to 400 I think but I haven’t gotten that far, takes too much time. Interesting that site founder, Kirk Buchner, created a hypothetical listing of Hall Of Fame classes starting in 1946. Good reads.
Paul why did they reduce the preliminary finalists to 50
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever for better or worst
Andy I don’t know for sure but in past heard voters say 100+ preliminary list was ridiculous and last year it hit 170+ so not surprised Hall decided to reel that in. Seems doubtful moderns, seniors, coaches and contributors have more than 50 in each group who actually deserve and would ever get in.
Paul there are some worthy preliminary finalists that have yet to be semi finalists like John Abraham Jeff Saturday Richmond Webb Kevin Williams Steve Wisniewski Shane Lechler who were those voters and do you agree with me if there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever
It really doesn’t matter about the number of preliminary candidates, the committees just have to make sure a worthy candidate is noted, so a Webb or Berry isn’t mistakenly omitted or left off the ballot. The screening process should be better this year, though many will never get voted in. Submissions by fans deserve to be noted as well, even though they will be eliminated quickly, if the players had no accolades to help advance them.
I feel once Kraft is voted in, the contributor category will continue to slow down and coaches and seniors will get more attention but I also feel that Art Rooney Jr and Murchison get a lot of support but may continue to wait awhile, as I feel they should. The coaches category will also slow down once Holmgren, Shanahan and maybe a Coughlin or Reeves gets voted in but we will see.
I still feel Knox or Schottenheimer we’re just as good but we’re snakebit in postseason.
Another thing about the seniors, we can’t assume the deck will be reshuffled with added or omitted players this year. They will probably just continue to focus on the top 4-6 from last year …
Brian we’ll just see and do you agree with me about what I said about the changes not lasting forever I’m going to email Rick Gosselin and tell him to tell all members of the selection committee and contributor committee to read the book Hole in the Roof so they can learn about Clint Murchison and why he belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame I don’t think he waits awhile I think he gets named the contributor finalist one of these years and elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame hopefully 2028
You should read Hole in the Roof too I have it and it’s great here’s a link
https://www.amazon.com/Hole-Roof-Murchison-Swaim-Paup-sponsored/dp/1648430961
I understand your position, Andy P …
The new screening process could happen before November with 50 being reduced to 25 as semifinalists in November and reduced to 15 finalists in December, if I am not mistaken.
Hopefully, Tony and Andy can put up a post covering this upcoming season as well.
Just wanted to note that Justin’s explanation about the voting process was spot on, and I believe we are going to have years with only 3-4 modern finalist going into the hall. Get ready for huge backlogs moving forward if this structure remains intact for 4 or 5 years.
As per Judge post via talkoffametwo.com on twitter today:
cut to 50 for each group is Sept 30th
cut to 25 for seniors is Oct, moderns is late Nov
I think we can safely assume as per usual, the finalists (now set at 15 moderns, 3 seniors, 1 coach, I contributor) remains late December
– all of these will be announced via official press release from PFHOF
with final selection (election) meeting held in-person in mid January
official announcement of class of 2025 during the NFL Honors Show, live during the Thursday evening before SuperBowl weekend
Bill: I checked with Clark Judge about the possibility of less than 5 moderns being elected, the math means its possible (with 7 its possible 5 don’t get to 80% each), but he seem to think an occasional and random possibility of 4 could happen, still thinks voters will end up electing 5 moderns. BTW the voters weren’t consulted on any of these recent changes and don’t know why some revisions were even needed or made.
When we get to the Top 7 modern era finalists do the voters just select a max of 5 on their ballot?
And similar for the seniors/coach/contributor cutdown rom 5 to 3?
It would a lot simpler just to cut down to 5 modern era as before and 3 seniors/coach/contributor, with a straight Yes/No.
Thanks for the information Paul … we will see if 5 moderns get elected but Justin has a point, certain players–1st ballot–could swallow the votes.
Paul will the finalists still be announced on NFL Network and why weren’t the voters consulted they should have been
Modern process going to a little tricky but once at the final 7 each voter can only select 5 names on their ballots, top 5 over 80% are elected, or could be 3 or 4 if only those numbers get the 80%. Min 3 is required so will be top three even if that includes some below the 80%
for 5 senior coach and contributors there is no vote down, top 3 with 80% are elected or could 1 or 2 if only those get 80% (or 0 if done do).
I would assume NFL network will have announcement show of 20 finalists in late December as been norm for moderns.
I don’t think Wilfork is a HOFer either but he probably will be over Bob Baumhower, Fred Smerlas, Jerry Ball and Casey Hampton. He was a likeable Patriot.
its clear we are are going to see more total classes of 6 and 7 (as max is now 8), that might include more modern classes of 4-which has not been the case in last 15+ elections, just pointing that out as Wilfork seems to me as example as a fringe PFHOF who might not get 80% yes voters if he ever even gets to the stage as a 7 modern candidate finalist…clearly voters will be getting more selective
Paul I hope not we’ll just see what happens
You know what they say life is full of surprises
Changes were intentionally made to increase frequency of smaller classes. 8 and more 6 or 7 so let’s not be surprised when it starts to happen
The math isn’t difficult. Unless there is consensus in the room (or collusion), the classes will undoubtedly be smaller, which means a greater backlog, less candidates cycling through the room, and potential gridlock in a worst case scenario—read Eli Manning.
Paul why would they do that I don’t get it and where did you get this information
Paul any updates on the Eye Test for Two
Plenty of comments online from voters on how these changes will result in smaller classes – Frank Cooney has written extensively about impact from changes and don’t have update on the podcast
Paul I’ve been wondering how come they reduced the waiting period for coaches to one year and why did they separate coaches and contributors again
Justin good to see you back where have you been
there is a lot to wonder about many of these changes (some of which seem to make no sense, were rushed and as we have read were done with little or no consultation with voters)…I think Hall is looking for direct path to finalists round so their cases can be heard by the full selection committee-Kraft and a few other contributors (cause really there are not that many deserving ) and same for BillB, MikeH, MikeS, Andy Reid etc….
would be hilarious if the final 5 presented to voters for class of 2025 included both Bill and Kraft…could very well happen under this system
and as I posted on Twitter (I refuse to call it by their newer stupider name) the more I think about these massive changes and the thought process by the Hall, makes me wonder if a major intent is to create more controversy, debate, outrage and uncertainly over the results-by media and the public but also among the voters, especially their in person election meeting in January- no one knows or can as easily predict the results, and also Hall is catering to the small Hall folks with a system that will have lower max of 8, and clearly years with even fewer selected.
its also a new system plagued with so many flaws, that there will be modifications, perhaps as soon as next year
They will soon run out of worthy contributors and would not be surprised if we eventually go back to a coach/contributor category.
15-10-5 for modern era then straight Yes/No as it was before.
5-3 for seniors, coaches etc then straight Yes/No would be so much better.
I agree, it may be 2 or 3 or 5 years down the road but this new process will again need to be modified as now (but certainly in a few more years) there will be even more deserving seniors left then coaches and far more than contributors (who I could count on one hand at this point). And with 5 tossed in with only 3 elected, those coaches but especially contributors are going to have very strong resumes and convincing cases to poin where 80% of 50 voters would select them over senior players
with this unnecessarily complex new process, and without even consulting many voters (especially long serving ones) is just ripe for correction by the Hall, perhaps as soon as the class of 2026 timeline
I’m sure there will be a few private conversations behind the scenes among the modern era voters on why the final voting process has to be so convoluted and how they were not consulted on the changes. Though I do like the other changes made for having a list of 50 Modern Era instead of a bloated 150 plus, and the transparency of 50 Seniors cut down to 25 and then three.
I do like several of the changes but the cutdown from 10 moderns to 7 finalists and then voters only allowed to vote for 5, who must make 80% plus the forcing 3 seniors + 1 contributor + 1 coach into list of 5 where only 3 can be elected seem convoluted unnecessary steps to me.
BTW I understand although the modern 50 preliminary (also like the process, committee and smaller) will still be made public-end of September, the same lists for senior, coaches and contributors will not be-but all the semifinalist (25) lists will be.
I’ve got a theory they want Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick elected so they can both knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski in 2027 and Tom Brady in 2028 and introduce them at NFL Honors
Paul why not release the preliminary lists for seniors coaches and contributors
Just to be sure, Belichick won’t be eligible till 2026 but I feel he will coach again in the NFC East –Philly or NY–
Here are the the people affiliated with the Patriots who will be elected the next four years
2025-Robert Kraft
2026-Bill Belichick
2027-Rob Gronkowski
2028-Tom Brady
no idea Andy P…but a member of the seniors committee replied to someones twitter message that only the 50 modern preliminary list will be released (late September), first list we will see for the seniors will be the 25+ties at end of October.
and according to Judge and others, unless it gets clarified from the PFHOF, since BillB is not coaching in 2024 season, that will represent his one year/season waiting period, and thus eligible to be considered as coach candidate for class of 2025-would be hilarious if among the 5 finalists where max 3 can be elected, that cases for Kraft and Bill would have to compete head to head (along with the 3 senior finalists)
agree that after the 2025 election, very possible Hall continues to tweet these rules as guessing there will be unforeseen issues plus push by many voters for Hall to better consult and communicate with them about process and possible improvements.
but as long as we have seniors, coaches and contributors fighting it out for only 3 slots (plus given that a senior and coach were not elected by full committee in class of 2024), once process deals with the top few contributors–that path for others will get to be close to impossible as far more deserving, hence higher quality resumes, of seniors and coaches will be finalist-plus 50 voters will often prefer players over non-players..I don’t see it hurting Kraft, BillB, AReid, MikeH, MikeS but other coaches-and especially contributors like Clint Murchison are facing dim prospects for election.
Which I believe was one intended outcome of these new rules-reduce # of PFHOFers elected each year, create better path for coaches (at expense of seniors) and make it very hard for contributors to get elected. Just think of a year where those 5 consist of Ken Anderson, Albert Lewis, Henry Ellard, MikeS, and Murchison – I think we can all agree the contributor will have very hard time getting in other the others (keeping in mind voters are not required to elect 3..could be 2, 1, or even 0
Paul what other coaches face dim chances why do they face dim chances same with contributors like Clint Murchison and what changes seem to make no sense or were rushed
Paul of those five I’d elect Ken Anderson Mike Shanahan and Clint Murchison
If given choice (and they will have one) voters will tend to select players over non-players.
This whole mess seems rushed and not well thought through and lacked any discussions and transparency with the voters. Just watch how quickly Hall moves to fix problems in coming years
Yep, the chances of a Buddy Parker or Buck Shaw getting elected are over, till much farther down the line.
Mike Florio of ProFootballTalk believes that since the election process is beginning during the 2024 season, which won’t officially end till after the Feb SB, that Belichick won’t be eligible, but like you said Paul, it’s up to confirmation from the PFHOF.
I just get a feeling with Kelce retiring and the Eagles defense changing–not to mention an impatient owner in Lurie–if the Eagles don’t go farther in the playoffs, Sirianni could get fired and if Daboll went through the same thing in NY, those openings could happen for Belichick, who wants to break Shula’s record.
I am convinced that once the Cowboys falter–and we know they will–Jones will get rid of McCarthy but won’t hire Belichick, because he wants to stay his own general manager.
2024 Season Thoughts ( Till We Get A Separate Thread)
–Guardian Caps can and will be used over Helmets during the season, could this be Christmas fashion trend?
–The Dolphins extended the contract for boy-wonder HC Mike McDaniels but can this guy get his team to avoid injuries and win when it counts?
They have a great chance to take the division over a weaker Buffalo team but can they finish strong and make the AFC championship game?
Tyreek Hill wants a 2000 yard season but winning in the postseason, has to be the team’s focus. He will already make the HOF.
–Andrews and Likely in Baltimore will be the first tandem of Tight Ends with over 1000 yards receiving.
–I predict the Steelers and Lions will be in the SB. I feel Tomlin can light a fire under Wilson and Detroit will get much better on defense, they just hope their HC don’t make dumb calls on 4th down. I don’t think the Niners under Shanahan can win it all, which is a shame considering their talent.
–Which rookie will be the big splash? Williams could be a star in Chicago but it’s a long year. Could a receiver like Harrison Jr. or Nabers help their teams win? Who will be the big star on defenses?
Sad that Case Keenum in Houston is now on injured reserve. Was hoping he could help the team advance into the playoffs, but it’s Strouds team and can he get even better?
Jeez … didn’t edit my last comments well. Lots of errors … sorry.
Paul when it comes to Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick voters will select them and I agree with you this seems rushed and not well thought through and lacked any discussions and transparency with voters
Brian we’ll just see
One way to look at this is BillB eligible or not for class of 2025, Eli will be eligible and not playing 2024 season is part of his 5 yr waiting period. But I guess we will seen when coach ballot is made public or if Hall (or voters) posts clarification
I hope former HC Dan Reeves enters the HOF soon. Not only a top notch HC but a human being too. His no nonsense approach reminds me a little of Tom Coughlin another HC who should be in the HOF asap.
Tony I agree with you hopefully after Bill Belichick and Mike Holmgren
Not convinced that Reeves has a case as strong as 2x SB winners MikeS and Coughlin, and perhaps he even waits until after Andy Reid is elected.
But with only one coach finalist each year (and no direct path to election), beyond a handful of HC, I suspect many will have hard time competing directly against senior finalists for the 3 slots given that many voters prefer players over coaches. I think this new system actually hurts HC like Reeves, whose chances might improve when (and not if, as it will happen) Hall again tinkers with the election process which many people will occur again in a few years.
Bud Grant 18 years HC 158-96-5 4 SB losses and one time Coach of the year waited 9 years to be a HOFer.
Marv Levy 17 years HC 143-112 4 SB losses Zero AP coach of the year waited 4 years.
Dan Reeves 23 years HC 190-165-2 4 SB losses (took 2 cities) and two time Coach of the year still waiting 21 years .
Can’t tell me media personality doesn’t matter. :)
Those huge SB Denver losses really hurt Reeves resume in eyes of the voters, and his win% is far worse than Grant and Levy…plus let’s remember its only been since 2020 that coaches had direct path to election and even since then its been shared with contributors. Now facing BillB, MikeS, MikeH, TomC (and soon to be Reid)..he’s got a tough path.. but he’s been a finalist so that helps him a lot..I think unless new system changes, if ever a coach finalist it very possible a strong contributor candidate and 2 senior players could keep him out..but only time will tell. Frankly he fairs much better if coaches had direct path to election or alternated every other year with contributors..
Paul what do you mean the new system hurts head coaches what about Bill Belichick he’s going to need no discussion when it’s time to present his case to the Selection Committee Ron Borges the New England representative will just get up and say Bill Belichick and that’ll be it just like what he’ll do with Tom Brady in 2028 when it’s time to present him to the Selection Committee he will just get up and say Tom Brady and that’ll be it
I think this new system only lasts one election the voters will complain to Jim Porter and he’ll have no choice but to change the system again going back to three seniors being elected and combining coaches and contributors again
Belichick is a different case altogether. A slam dunk choice. As will be Andy Reid some day.
The new system will hurt head coaches as they are no longer fast tracked to the final vote. They now have to compete with a very deep Seniors pool for those votes. However I’m sure there will be further changes and one of them will be combining coaches and contributors once again.
Boknows that’s what I said
Brian- Steelers have a lot of warts. I don’t see them as a Super Bowl contender. They will be lucky to even make playoffs. I hate the new HOF voting process. It wasn’t broken.
No system is going to hurt chances for BillB (or Reid) but for many other coaches-whom to date have never been finalist (MikeH, MikeS, Reeves etc..) a new process that makes them compete directly against 3 seniors (players) for election hurts the coaches pool of candidates-for the same reason for decades – prior to 2000- HC had a hard time, including some still waiting, when voters -some have stated this publicly – if faced with choice would select a player over a coach..again that’s not going to be issue for BillB or AReid but for many other HCs who in 2021-2024 had a direct path to elect not against players, now again have thatblock placed in front of them
You’re right Bill, yet I think Wilson will respond. His calf is giving him issues right now, so Fields might see more early action but we will see how the year progresses.
Likely for Baltimore had a great game last night but just couldnt drag his toe to get the possible tying TD. The Chiefs linebacker–I think it was Bolton–rode him just enough to drive him out of bounds and deserves some credit. Jackson should have hit Likely with the TD pass two plays earlier at the corner pylon but missed him. Then he missed a wide open Flowers on the very next play.
Worthy for the Chiefs played well but the Ravens forgot where he was on the easy TD pass. With players missing a lot of preseason action, there will be a lot of sloppy play and cheap TDs this weekend.
The interesting thing about suggesting voters will press the Hall as soon as next year to toss these new changes out and go back to the old system (its possible but seems unlikely for reasons I will explain) is that a major reason these changes were pushed by the Hall was because some voters pressed them on the issue of electing too many each year-as did others in media and likely some current PFHOFers. Point here is that there are no doubt voters who were not heard and do not like these new changes (and we have heard publicly from some of those in recent weeks) yet apparently there are also voters who like a system where only 5-7 are elected each year. What will be interesting over next few years is who the Hall staff will hear from and which groups of voters and loudest voices will prevail-keep new process or toss it out.
Today I think its hard to say which will win out..I suspect minor revisions will happen in next few years, but be assured Hall is not going back to 3 seniors per year and potential for 8 or 9 PFHOFers elected each year. Best we can hope for (in regards to seniors) is not a direct compete with coaches-contributors but 2 seniors per year + annual rotation of one coach-contributor, and system that continues to increase chances that max 5 moderns are not elected each year…thus more classes that look like 4 modern+2 seniors+1 coach/contributor=7 (and still path by which 50 voters do not elect the seniors and coach-contributors each year, giving us classes of 6 on occasion). Hall is not going back to any system in near future with 8 to 9 elected per year.
Its clear we are heading into an era of small Hall, after an era over last decade+ of 7-9 elected per year representing big Hall view. Willing to bet that if we look back in 2035 at a decade of elections, total elected PFHOFers will be less than 2014-2024 total (excluding centennial class).
Sad it say it but more deserving seniors will wait, including more who will not live to see their election-terrible for them and their families but it appears the direction the Hall is going, shocking as it is especially given comments from Porter when he first assumed the job and expressed interest-after discussions with voters-to get more candidates discussed and elected-and even more shocking how within a just few years the view of enough influencers flipped from big Hall back to small Hall. And as we continue to see more long term veteran selection committee members (voters) depart – for example Peter King is no longer a voter – and more of those in late 60s or older (who actually covered and studied the game pre 1990, some back into the 1960s) that committee will quickly become younger and few have interest in electing seniors from before 1990. Yes its great to now have non-media and historians as part of the new processes and on the subcommittees with voting rights that select the senior, coach and contributors finalists-but only 2 among the 9 – will they be enough to influence the other 7 subcommittee members to advance a finalist from pre 1990??
There’s only one person to blame for all this ands it’s the one who started it Deion Sanders why did he have to sound off on the Pro Football Hall of Fame
Deion’s comments likely a factor, but since the 2000 centennial class there have been grumbling from some in the media, including voters that classes were too large..I am just surprised that after listening to the voters after he was appointed in 2022, then getting Hall that year to create rules allowing for 3 seniors and up to 9 total elected each year for 2023-2025…after only two years (apparently after not consulting the entire voting body or even the most experienced long serving like Kaufman and Judge), Porter completely flipped the system to create a process that will cap total at 8 but perhaps even more importantly create a process where smaller classes of 6 or 7 – even 5 – are possible-as stated in the Hall press release on changes.
“With the revisions, a new class could be comprised of four to eight individuals, but with the 80% approval threshold, classes are more likely, statistically, to include five or six members.”
Bizarre switch from large hall view to small hall view (back to how it was from 1963 into early 2000s) in just two years-stunning in fact.
Paul the Centennial Class happened in 2020 I wish they had consulted the voters I’m surprised too that Jim Porter made the switch I bet the voters are upset that they weren’t consulted especially Rick Gosselin Ira Kaufman and Clark Judge what do you like about the changes and what don’t you like about the changes
I like involving non-voters in preparing the initial list of 50 and having non-voters on each of the blue ribbon subcommittees, I don’t like the grouping 5 seniors coach and contributor and only 3 can be elected (hurts seniors), and I think the last vote down for moderns at 7 where its 5 max but more possible its 3 or 4 moderns can be elected-seems like a gimmick to reduce classes while creating problems that deserving moderns split votes and less get elected.
Paul I don’t like the grouping and the last vote down either I think the new system only lasts one election the voters will complain to Jim Porter and he’ll have no choice but to go change the system again going back to three seniors being elected and combing coaches and contributors again why didn’t Jim Porter consult the voters I wish he had do you feel the same way I bet they’re upset they weren’t consulted especially Rick Gosselin Clark Judge and Ira Kaufman
This whole thing feels contrived to intentionally have smaller classes. Very disappointing.
As much as I would like to agree and hope that is the case AndyP…could be that many voters (or loud ones) are one reason election process was changed and willing to bet the ones advocating more for getting more deserving seniors elected are becoming the silent minority whose numbers decline each year (for example Kaufman is no longer on the seniors committee, and Peter King is no longer on the 50 member selection committee-although will serve as non-voter on the coaches BRP).
Oh Bill it is not just contrived to have smaller classes but that is the clear intent and one that that Hall even states on their press release
“With the revisions, a new class could be comprised of four to eight individuals, but with the 80% approval threshold, classes are more likely, statistically, to include five or six members.”
So they fully expect that with each voter only allowed to select 5 from among final 7 moderns, result will end up with fewer than the 5 getting the required 80% (due to vote splitting) and like class of 2024, that the full committee may not select the max 3 among seniors, coach and contributors. Seems pretty apparent if not changes, that the total elected over next few years will be less than those elected last 5 years (excluding the 2020 centennial class) and likely fewer than any five year election block back to the early 2000s when smaller classes were more the norm. At class of 2025 with 6 or 7 would not surprise me one bit.
For the very first time the PFHOF has publicly released a preliminary list of senior candidates for class of 2025 (with 183 names, many I don’t even recognize and likely 120+ who will never even be considered as semi-finalists-but still nice to see where the new senior screening committee is starting with as they now work to get 50 to the new senior BRP (at end of Sept) for them to then start their work to 25 and then 12 semifinalists and their eventual nomination of 3 senior finalists for class of 2025
https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2024/09/183-senior-player-nominees-announced-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2025/
Agreed it’s great to see a preliminary list for the seniors my question is what’s the toughest position for the senior countdown
You can thank me for the nominees list being released I emailed the Pro Football Hall of Fame asking them to release it and they told me my message has been received
Thank you andy p
A very shaky list indeed. Look, I am all for noting players with HOF cases, but it looks like “they”–whoever chooses this list–also just threw darts at a list of names.
Gene Brito, one of the best pass rushers of the 1950s, was left off this list. Lou Rymkus, was listed as a defensive lineman. He might have saw some action there but was accoladed as an offensive tackle.
James Harris was listed as a QB, but John Brodie and John Had weren’t listed …
Despite being the second most prolific receiver of the late 30s and 40s behind Don Hutson, Jim Benton did not make the list.
Gary Clark and Wes Chandler also didn’t make this list but Bob Scarpitto, Homer Jones, Pat Studstill, Bobby Walston and John Taylor did?
Matt Blair didn’t make it as a linebacker, and despite Riley Matheson being a five time All-Pro, didn’t make it as an offensive lineman. Neither did Jim Ray Smith, Russ Washington, Bruno Banducci, Leon Gray or Jim Lachey. Kent Hull didn’t make it at center as well.
Both Cookie Gilchrist and Abner Haynes couldn’t get traction for the AFL. Another great pass rusher, Jim Katcavage failed to make the list but Ben Davidson did? No Coy Bacon or Cedrick Hardman either.
Senior Preliminary List (Non-deserving)
QBs
James Harris
Bobby Hebert
Jeff Hostetler
Ron Jaworski
Doug Williams
Running Backs
Hewitt Dixon
Willie Gallimore
Marv Hubbard
Christian Okoye
Mark Van Eeghen
Sammy Winder
Wide Receivers
Homer Jones
Bob Scarpitto
Pat Studstill
John Taylor
Bobby Walston
Offensive Linemen
Wayne Hawkins
Luis Sharpe
Defensive Linemen
Ray Childress
Ben Davidson
Rosey Grier
Lou Rymkus?
Otis Sistrunk
Bubba Smith
Bill Stanfill
Linebackers
Dan Conners
Matt Mullen
Subjective list of course and many are borderline at best. I can easily substitute alot of these players on the list.
Some positions look shaky I do agree esp at qb if we had every name we wanted we’d be looking at a list of over 200 names and cutting that down to 50 would be impossible
btw Brian W. Most of the guys that I’ve considered to be worthy senior nominees are on this list so I’m not complaining at all
Wayne Hawkins was a great guard for the Raiders but light on accolades. Sweeney, Budde and Talamini–not on the list–were more deserving.
Damn, auto correct … Matt Millen
Budde and Sweeney are on the list
A part of me wonders if something like Bill Simmons’ Pyramid idea would help resolve the conflict between HOFers who want a small hall and writers and fans who want a bigger one. I don’t know if it would work as well in football than in the baseball and basketball contexts he came up with it for given the wide spread of prominence of different positions where offensive linemen are much more anonymous than quarterbacks (to say nothing of the practical concern of effectively remaking and rewriting the whole Hall). But it would allow people to choose different “levels” as the “true” Hall in their minds.
That said, I’m wondering which of these is closest to y’all’s views?
*The Hall should have more players than it currently does.
*There are undeserving players in the Hall, and if you could, you’d take some of them out to make room for the unjustly omitted ones, resulting in the total number not being too far away from where it is now.
*The idea of who “deserves” to be in the Hall is determined in part by who’s already in. If it weren’t for some of the questionable inductions of the past, you wouldn’t be campaigning as hard for certain players to be inducted now.
*There are fewer players in the Hall than deserve to be there, but that’s okay because there should be a high bar to get in. I may really want this player to be in the Hall and think they should be in, but I know some people may disagree.
*There are fewer players in the Hall than deserve to be there, but that’s okay because even before this year’s changes, the way the selection process works, with the hard limit on the number of inductees in each category, ensures some players will have to wait their turn for induction.
Sorry, I meant Talamini
Morgan the thing with the smaller hall thing is more of a modern era thing not a senior thing
Paul do you know when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be announced
One name Brian I’ll add that should have been there is pat swilling other than that I’m satisfied
I think the list they released today has a lot of really great players, many of whom wouldn’t be offensive to me if ever elected (and almost everyone on my personal “wish list” was there) but I also agree with Brian that in addition to some notable omissions, there were some inexplicable inclusions. In particular, Dave Krieg, Hewritt Dixon, Mark van Eeghen, Marv Hubbard, Sammy Winder???, Bob Scarpitto, Pat Studstill, Thom Darden, Don Mosebar and Fred Williamson come to mind. There are more.
Am I crazy, or did they go overboard on the Raiders?
Notable omissions for me include Brito, Benton, Pete Retzlaff, Jerry Smith, Riley Matheson, Jim Ray Smith, Matt Blair, Bob Baumhower, John Hadl, John Brodie.
I thought the single-most ridiculous name on the list was Bobby Hebert.
The most infuriating: Jim Plunkett. He has a lot of support on social media and there are clearly sportswriters and I’m guessing some voters who want him inducted. He has no business in the Hall of Fame.
Was happy to see Billy Howton, Del Shofner and Harold Jackson on the list…and especially Lemar Parrish.
I still think the three most deserving nominees would be super seniors – probably Lewellen, Wistert and Dilweg. But sentimentally I’d rather see guys who are still living: Howton, Parrish and Kunz. My prediction? Plunkett, Banks and Sharpe (in other words, I expect them to screw it up).
There is no way they will ever elect plunkett over ken anderson or banks over other deserving linebacker trust me on that, the one name I will agree with you on Jeff is Sterling Sharpe. I think he is one of the three to get a senior spot the other two well I’m not too sure
Jeff good to see you back where have you been
Why is Cecil Isbell listed as a running back when he mainly a quarterback and Lou Rymkus a defensive lineman when he was mainly a offensive lineman
To answer your question I’m not quite sure why both are listed at different positions
For Andy P … Isbell was a single-wing back who threw the ball, only played five seasons though.
Rymkus may have started out playing on defense but was known as a quality offensive tackle. As a coach, won the the first AFL championship with Houston.
Agree with Jeff, Retzlaff, Jerry Smith and Baumhower should have made the list.
I won’t list 50 Robert, because many of them won’t make the HOF, but if I chose for the HOF, these 25 players–off this unfortunate list–would be my choices …
Vern Lewellen
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Al Wistert
Dick Barwegan
Charlie Conerly
Bill Howton
Jimmy Patton
Del Shofner
Art Powell
Jim Tyrer
Dave Grayson
Dick Schafrath
George Andrie
Jake Scott
Lemar Parrish
Harvey Martin
Bob Kuechenberg
Fred Smerlas
OJ Anderson
Roger Craig
Deron Cherry
Joe Jacoby
Sterling Sharpe
Mike Kenn
Of course Tyrer, Andrie, Smerlas, Howton and older super seniors won’t make the HOF but I chose them anyway. Would love to be surprised.
I would vote Dick Anderson in but injuries will keep him out, so hopefully, Jake Scott will one-day get elected. I like Don Doll and voted him for HOVG but he only played six seasons.
I like alot of players like Albert Lewis, Meador, Browner, Hilgenberg, Mecklenburg, Fortunato, Grantham, Greenwood, Niland, Harold Jackson, and many others, but they missed my Top 25.
My Top 25 Players Not In The HOF …
Tyrer
Wistert
Lewellen
Brito
Patton
Grayson
Martin
Benton
D Anderson
Scott
Matheson
Emerson
Shofner
Katcavage
Cherry
Parrish
JR Smith
Conerly
Powell
Sharpe
Smerlas
Meador
Craig
Jacoby
Howton
I’ll be working on my top 50 and post it on the site within the next week or two
As we have discussed in the past with the 150+ names on the modern candidate preliminary list, this initial step of the election process-although necessary one as it needs to start with a list of candidates-is otherwise somewhat of an useless and uninformative list. Due to the fact that anyone (voter, fans, members of the media etc..) and submit a nomination and the Hall staff does not filter out. Thus you end up with dozens of names that have no chance in getting elected EVER.
So yes its neat for us Hall geeks for the first time to see the full list of seniors being considered but for the election process, the next list (end of Sept) with the non-voter screening committee reducing it to 50 names to be considered by the new reformed senior BRP will give us more insight on the pool.
Robert, I have no problem with Swilling listed, a very gifted pass rusher but Don Meredith over a Riley Matheson?
I get what you’re saying Paul, especially about fan write in votes, but you can’t ignore players with multiple All-Pro designations and importance to team championships. Duane Putnam was ignored as well. We all have our favorites, it’s subjective, but a historian could really help the preliminary process.
Moving on, I am sure the process will be what Robert is advocating, players advancing who mostly played from 1975-1995 and we will see if the committee will still fight for super-seniors, but if they feel the voters in January won’t care for them(1-2 candidates)they will continue with the recentism, which could help get them elected by being more known or seen. A coach, or an owner like Kraft, will get plenty of support.
I goofed up on my Top 25 … I meant to put in Dilweg, but got lost trying to shuffle players in a chronological order thinking I already had him listed. Doesn’t matter, he won’t get elected anyway but many of us thought the same way about Chuck Howley.
Yes clear omissions on the senior (and modern) prelimninary lists are to be directly blamed on all 50 voters as over the summer they get to review two versions of each those lists of 150+ before they are finalized and made public-voters need to review carefully and do their research, make sure to add names (which they are allowed to do) of all deserving candidates.
I have given up on all hope for pre 1960 super seniors, and likely now same for those with careers mostly in the 1960s, and new process makes it only harder as with 3 seniors competing against 1 coach and 1 contributor (especially when those likely finalists in next few years will be BillB, Kraft and other high profile HCs and others), so the senior BRP is really going to make 3 very strong finalists with solid resumes-and likely those who played since 1980s as unfortunately those are the players majority of 50 member selection committee will recognize and more likely to support-sorry but that selection committee is getting younger by the year, most cover league since 1990s and few are true historians of the game-making it really hard to have seniors they aren’t aware of to get considered. Its frustrating and sad but current reality of the process, and I don’t think Hall will suddenly reverse its path next year to immediately fix the flawed new process, we are looking at an era of smaller classes- 5 or 6 total now going to be common with 1 senior, at best 2 in some elections.
And following the Hall senior elections closely since early 2000s, and unlike Dilweg, myself and others never through the same way about Chuck Howley (never would get elected), especially since we had some insight from the senior election process before 2023, although not public, that Howley and not Dilweg, was a serious contender and topic of much consideration each election year by the seniors committee.
Looking at the semifinalist list of 31 players from last year for seniors, I not only feel most of the same players will be back, but others may be left off this year, especially if voters continue to go recent.
In Jeopardy?
Powell
Wistert
Conerly
Isbell
Three of four will probably not make it, unless there are ties. It PAINS me to write this. It’s also doubtful that a surprise out of the 50, happens.
Don Van Natta Jr wrote an article for ESPN about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41073940/the-secret-history-robert-kraft-hall-fame-quest
I agree with you, Brian (sadly). I dont think there’s any appetite even for players who played prior to the 70s. If I can allow myself a little bit of optimism…maybe Wistert will stay in the mix after making it pretty far last year. Maybe there’s an appetite to eventually give him his chance, but if so he might be the only one. Of those four, Wistert has the best case. I can see them shelving Powell after getting nixed last year. I have trouble going to the mat for Isbell and Conerly.
Given the changes to the bylaws, I have a feeling only one of these 183 names is making it through this year. I’m struggling with it. I’m OK breaking up contributors and coaches, but I’m not OK with fewer seniors being elected which is what’s going to happen. I feel the hall is for players first, coaches second, contributors a distant third (just my opinion), and I think the hall’s biggest problem is the player backlog. Seems like they’re looking at it and deciding their problem is that there aren’t enough coaches and owners in there and they’re just guaranteeing the backlog gets bigger. Disappointing development.
That documentary on the Patriots might hurt Kraft but I still think he has the support to get in this year. I definitely feel supporters for him thwarted the chances of Parker last January. We will see. If two seniors were to get elected at his expense, it won’t hurt my feelings one bit.
So far, Belichick isn’t exactly helping the numbers on the MNF Manning cast but with so many people watching on phones, computers and bars, restaurants, who really knows the viewing numbers? It would be funny if he gets voted into the Hall before Kraft but I feel he will be coaching next year.
same here brian if we get kraft and two seniors id be ok with that Btw heres my cut down to 50
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Ed Budde
Maxie Baughan
Bill Bergey
Larry Brown (RB)
Joey Browner
Gary Collins
Charlie Conerly
Roger Craig
Nolan Cromwell
John David Crow
Lavern Dilweg
Boyd Dowler
Ox Emerson
Chuck Foreman
Bill Fralic
Roman Gabriel
Larry Grantham
Dave Grayson
L.C.Greenwood
Pat Harder
Billy Howton
Cecil Isbell
Harold Jackson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Harvey Martin
Clay Matthews Jr
Eddie Meador
Stanley Morgan
Tommy Nobis
Bill Osmanski
Jimmy Patton
Lemar Parrish
Art Powell
Dick Schafrath
Sterling Sharpe
Jake Scott
Tom Sestak
Walt Sweeney
Del Shofner
Pat Swilling
Lionel Taylor
Otis Taylor
Everson Walls
Al Wistert
Louis Wright
Good list Robert … maybe some of these players can settle into a queue for the future but I feel the queue set in 2023 will continue with few interruptions after McMichael got elected.
Another thing about these committees and voters; they could simply keep momentum going for a player that just missed on their last year of modern eligibility–Lewis–and try to keep a spot warm for them as first year seniors but we shall see. Is it enough to disrupt the queue?
The list is now 182 Sean Landeta was originally among the nominees but was removed he played until 2005 someone must have been asleep
Robert no Verne Lewellen no Joe Jacoby no Billy White Shoes Johnson no Jim Marshall no Karl Mecklenberg
Heres the thing andy i mainly focused on all decade players and those 5 you listed would be the five that just missed but i wouldnt mind if they got in eventually
Robert oh sorry about that then well Billy White Shoes Johnson was All Decade
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Ed Budde
Maxie Baughan
Bill Bergey
Larry Brown (RB)
Joey Browner
Gary Collins
Charlie Conerly
Roger Craig
Nolan Cromwell
John David Crow
Lavern Dilweg
Boyd Dowler
Ox Emerson
Chuck Foreman
Bill Fralic
Larry Grantham
Dave Grayson
L.C.Greenwood
Pat Harder
Billy Howton
Cecil Isbell
Harold Jackson
Billy “White Shoes Johnson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Harvey Martin
Clay Matthews Jr
Eddie Meador
Stanley Morgan
Tommy Nobis
Bill Osmanski
Jimmy Patton
Lemar Parrish
Art Powell
Dick Schafrath
Sterling Sharpe
Jake Scott
Tom Sestak
Walt Sweeney
Del Shofner
Lionel Taylor
Otis Taylor
Everson Walls
Al Wistert
Louis Wright
Appreciate the info Andy P on white shoes
Turns out on the list i just posted I only had 49 names so I added joe Jacoby for a even 50
Deion’s comments were geared towards modern era players not the seniors, this will be the last time I bring up this particular thought on Deion
BTW the Updated List
1. Dick Anderson
2. Ken Anderson
3. Ed Budde
4. Maxie Baughan
5. Bill Bergey
6. Larry Brown (RB)
7. Joey Browner
8. Gary Collins
9. Charlie Conerly
10. Roger Craig
11. Nolan Cromwell
12. John David Crow
13. Lavern Dilweg
14. Boyd Dowler
15. Ox Emerson
16. Chuck Foreman
17. Bill Fralic
18. Larry Grantham
19. Dave Grayson
20. L.C.Greenwood
21. Pat Harder
22. Billy Howton
23. Cecil Isbell
24. Harold Jackson
25. Joe Jacoby
26. Billy “White Shoes Johnson
27. Mike Kenn
28. Bob Kuechenberg
29. George Kunz
30. Albert Lewis
31. Harvey Martin
32. Clay Matthews Jr
33. Eddie Meador
34. Stanley Morgan
35. Tommy Nobis
36. Bill Osmanski
37. Jimmy Patton
38. Lemar Parrish
39. Art Powell
40. Dick Schafrath
41. Sterling Sharpe
42. Jake Scott
43. Tom Sestak
44. Walt Sweeney
45. Del Shofner
46. Lionel Taylor
47. Otis Taylor
48. Everson Walls
49. Al Wistert
50. Louis Wright
If we ever get back to assured 2 or 3 seniors elected a year (seems very likely) I have decided to keep my seniors list at top 15 which likely realistically represents about a decade of elections or 1 or at best 2 in some years-and of course doesn’t include other moderns who will fall into seniors pool-and going to be more of them if 3 or 4 moderns are more common elections. I simply no longer see value in a list of seniors longer in number than 15
1. WR Sterling Sharpe (F2023-F6,F2024)
2. RB Roger Craig (F2024-F6)
3. LB Maxie Baughan(F2023,F2024)
4. CB/S Eddie Meador (F2023,F2024-F6)
5. QB Ken Anderson (F2023,F2024-F6)
6. G Bob Kuechenberg (F2023-F6)
7. CB Albert Lewis (F2024)
8. LB Tommy Nobis (F2023)
9. OT Al Wistert (F2024)***
10. OT Joe Jacoby (F2024)
11. F Otis Taylor (F2024)
12. F Lavvie Dilweg ***
13. G Ox Emerson ***
14. CB Everson Walls (F2023)
15. DB Jimmy Patton
Well one thing about all these changes is that we really will not know how it plays out this year..making predictions very challenging..and our annual prediction contest suddenly very interesting
and no rush with your prediction yet, as has been usual timing, I will call for and collect submissions in early January once 20 finalists are announced and before selection committee meets
RIP
Joe Schmidt
A great MLB and winning coach for Detroit
Joe Schmidt might be the most underrated player (in the eyes of people today) in pro football history. For me, he sneaks past Barry as the greatest Lion of all time. Terrible that the modern fan has no idea who he was.
and was oldest living player in PFHOF (age 92), the honor now goes to Raymond Berry (91), with Marv Levy the oldest current PFHOFer (99)
Paul did you see my comments about when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be released what do you think about the article about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
Here’s the thing paul I agree with your final 15 100% most of the guys in your final 15 are in mine
Should I read the comments I’ve gotten so far as “some modern era inductees don’t deserve to be in, but even without them, there are senior candidates that should be in”? I actually don’t have a problem with there being fewer inductees from before the 50s or 60s when the game was a lot less popular and hadn’t rounded into its final form yet. Right now ~93 of the 323 players in the Hall started their careers before 1955, which seems about right to me – half as many in the first four decades of the NFL than in the succeeding decades, so about 2/7ths. (This attitude may reflect the influence of Simmons, who would prefer to almost completely ignore the history of the NBA before Bill Russell came into the league, on my thinking.)
I read that piece about Kraft. I think he deserves to be in the Hall, but considering contributors have no guidelines for when they can be inducted and often get inducted while still active owners, I don’t particularly care when it happens. What pissed me off, though, was that apparently the number one mark against Kraft was that some voters think he knew more about Spygate than has come out. Let’s leave aside the lack of evidence for this; these people served on the combined coach/contributor committee, so how many of them would have voted to induct Bill Belichick on the first ballot under the old rules? I’m going to guess most if not all of them. So how can these people hold Spygate against Kraft but not Belichick, the one who actually did the spying? Belichick might not be inducted when he becomes eligible, if only because the reduction to a one-year wait was made without consulting voters and they’ll probably be reticent to induct Belichick when he still wants to coach again, but if he gets in before Kraft I don’t want to hear that it’s because of Spygate.
Paul did you see my comments about when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be released
….my understanding is that we will not see those preliminary lists; late Sept or Oct, we will see their semifinalist lists which will consist of coach (12) and contributors (20), those BRP do not have the new screening process or committees that modern and senior players now have.
what do you think about the article about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
none of it surprises me, doubt the lobbying is unique to just him nor would it impact his chances for election or sour his case in the eyes of the voters, all of those efforts overlapped with class of 2023 election cycle when I understand it took a extra tiebreaker between Coryell and Kraft. Under the new system contributor has a direct path to finalist-clearly he is the top contender..guessing once presented and discussed at the January selection meeting he has a real good chance of among 3 from 5 that can be elected.
(from a source-NOT a current voter-who has seen the recently approved new election rules)
next steps
-by end of Sept-release of modern preliminary list (150+??)….modern election timeline is same as in years past;
-during Oct-release of list of screened 50 seniors
-sept or Oct-lists of 12 coach and 20 contributor semi-finalist lists (those preliminary lists not made public, no screening committee, those two BRP panel vote to create their semi-finalists
– -each of the three BRP to reduce to their 9 semi-finalists by votes (Oct) and then each BRP meet to select their finalists (Nov/Dec)… (all these names to be made public, dates TBD)
note that schedule of press release of names at each stage is decided by the Hall (and not set or known in advance), plus its first time for all these new processes and steps, so very possible some dates end up later….BUT
all finalists will be announced last week of Dec/first week Jan….with meeting of 50 member selection committee in-person, mid Jan
I didn’t see Tommy Nobis on your top 25 list Brian. I have to think he’ll get in soon with the momentum growing for his election. This is a FB post from Joe Carmack that says it all.
Nobis joined the Falcons for their inaugural season in 1966. That season, he won the league’s NFL Rookie of the Year, was voted to the Pro Bowland amassed 294 combined tackles which still stands today as the team’s all-time single-season record, and is unofficially the most tackles ever credited to one player, in a season, in NFL history. In eleven professional seasons he led the Falcons in tackles nine times, went to five Pro Bowls (one in 1972 after two knee surgeries), was named All-Pro twice and was chosen for the NFL’s “All-Decade Team” for the 1960s. Miami Dolphins great, running back Larry Csonka commented, “I’d rather play against Dick Butkus than Nobis,”.
* First-team All-Pro (1967)
* Second-team All-Pro (1968)
* 5× Pro Bowl (1966–1968, 1970, 1972)
* NFL Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
* Atlanta Falcons Ring of Honor
Nobis was a great player but overrated for me as well. He simply got hurt alot but showed toughness and kept hanging on. I just dont feel he should have been All-Decade. Howley should have gotten that designation but Nobis got a lot of publicity off a great rookie season. Is he worthy of the HOF? Absolutely but I still feel others were just as good if not better. He has to wait because he was on a bad team but he was a tackling machine just like undersized Jessie Tuggle.
Good call Morgan … the spygate and sideline taping, filming sessions should have no bearing on Kraft’s case for the HOF. Every team had done these things but the Patriots–ordered by Belichick–were just more aggressive about it and got caught . We will see if this is the year Kraft gets elected. In a weird way, this ESPN article seems like a further endorsement but we shall see.
As for the HOF, I am more bigger Hall myself because less than 3% of all players throughout the history of the NFL have gotten voted in. The bar has been set lower however, but once the players are voted in–despite campaigns, social media endorsements and what-not–thats it.
Thanks for the updated information Paul.
Once again, the Dolphins get dominated by the Bills. I still hope Tua will play again but leading with his head after a run wasnt too smart. Yes, he was diagnosed with a concussion but I also hope it was more of a neck sprain but a scary situation nonetheless. Everyone says he should retire but QBs from the past had alot of concussions as well and recovered. I think he will be back, but we will see if the Dolphins let him. Alot of money riding on this, though his health and future have to come first.
Just for the record tony p. Nobis is in my final 25 and final 12
To answer your question Brian either baughan or howley should have been all 60s
Paul I don’t think you know this but a handwritten letter from Bill Walsh to Don Coryell helped him become the contributor finalist
https://fullpresscoverage.com/2022/08/25/what-did-bill-walsh-have-to-do-with-coryells-hall-nomination-plenty/
Paul didn’t you forget the modern era preliminary list won’t be 150 plus anymore it’s now 50
thanks for the reminder about the modern list being down to 50 Andy,, also im thinking that the senior committee will focus more on the offensive side after going mainly defensive the previous two years
Robert we’ll just see
That’s incorrect Andy – just like there was a 150+ senior preliminary list (which a screening committee will now reduce to 50 to provide to voters) we will see same for moderns – what I posted came directly from the revised PFHOF election bylaws.
This new voting process could be beneficial to modern candidates considered first ballot choices but some great players will have to wait. If Kuechly were to wait, he will be dealing with Brees, Fitz and Witten next year. How long will it take for Gore, Thomas or Yanda? Will Eli or Rivers have to wait awhile? Maybe five can still get elected for 2025-2026 but it will get intriguing. Voters cant just be team homers, they have to really try to pick the most deserving players or a backlog will get crazy like Justin said …
If more classes consist of just 4 (or occasionally ally 3) per year, then yes we will begin see more frequent and long backlogs of modern candidates, but apparently Hall doesn’t care
In order, predict which brothers enter the HOF 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. from these great brother combinations:
Eli and Peyton Manning
Shannon and Sterling Sharpe
TJ and JJ Watt
Travis and Jason Kelce
Bruce and Clay Matthews T
Tiki and Ronde Barber.
Maybe you don’t think all will make it? Care to rank the combinations?
Paul do you mean modern era classes???
Yes
gotcha thanks for the clarification
Sterling will join his brother this year … the next duo will be the Kelce brothers.
I have sterling as one of my 3 senior nominees Brian the other two I’m not sure
My only thought is about the 2 other seniors is that their BRP better bring two very solid contenders as they likely facing BillB and Kraft for two slots for election
For example, Art Powell would not have been senior finalist in this new election system as there simply would have been no way he gets elected (even with direct path to election when all 3 seniors were discussed and voted on individually and just needed yes/no, the 50 selectors rejected his case), so any player with a sniff of weakness to his case-and Powell had several-is going to get in over coach and contributor. So senior BRP need to bring their best of best cases forward, players since 1980s with all pro selections, all decade team, SBs..and perhaps because he came so close as modern candidate recently and selectors are aware of his case- perhaps Albert Lewis. If Senior BRP takes a flyer on someone who jumps from not semi-finalist in 2023/2024 its a risky move….heck they should bring forward remaining post 1980 era finalists from 2023/2024 if intent of the Senior BRP is to give those players the best chances of getting any seniors elected.
If serious about their efforts, the Senior BRP should be considering three finalists from a list of: Sharpe,Craig,KAnderson,JJacoby,LHayes,BobK,ALewis,EWalls,OAnderson,CMatthews,Ellard,Nobis (do I think all these are the top deserving senior PFHOFers, nope not all of them…do I think they have been chances at election, yes..
Do you mean if belichick stays out if coaching for 2025 and is eligible for the 2026 election
Apparently since BillB isn’t coaching in 2024 he’s eligible for class of 2025, look at this way as Eli is eligible after 5 year waiting period that includes 2024 season. Unless Hall clarifies (and to date they have chosen not to), he’s eligible and we will see in next month or so when Coach semifinalists are announced.
From The AP: Bill Belichick could be eligible to be selected for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2026 instead of 2029 following significant changes made to the selection process.
The Hall of Fame announced the new rules that were approved by the Board of Directors on Friday. They go into effect immediately, including reducing the waiting period for coaches to be considered from five years out of the game to one year.
That would make six-time Super Bowl-winning head coach Belichick eligible to be selected for the 2026 class after he parted ways with the New England Patriots after last season.
From Pro Football Talk :
Belichick won’t be eligible for the Class of 2025 because the selection process has already begun
Neither of those sources have confirmed with PFHOF, and Hall hasn’t made clarification while actual voters are suggesting he is. selection of the coaches candidates started in summer and he’s not coaching in 2024 which would be his one year waiting period.
From Clark Judge in recent Talk of Hall posted story about next coaches in PFHOF “ The new changes mean that unless Belichick returns to coaching this season – and he’s currently out of the NFL – he becomes eligible for the Class of 2025. ”
Two of my three senior nominees paul I’m pretty sure on that being Ken Anderson and Sterling Sharpe the third one is the one baffling me to no end
I wish they hadn’t changed the voting process I’d wish they kept the original voting process instead I like forming screening committees and having historians and non voting members on the senior coach and contributor committees and having coaches and contributors separate again and the waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year I’d wish they added those instead of changing the voting process I’m worried this will only increase the senior backlog
Andy the only way i could see that happening would be if we would only electoral say 3 modern a year
Robert see what happening
its clear that backlog of seniors will increase with likely only 1 or 2 per year (compared to chances for 3 last two years) and the having voters only vote for 5 of 7 modern finalists and those electing needing 80% from the 50 member selection committee will result in elections with 3 or 4 moderns, hence we will start to see classes of 7 or even 6 (compared to recent 8 or 9) very soon. All of which means more backlogs.
Here’s a hum-dinger of a trivia question. Who are the two HOF QB’s who went to the University of Texas to play for the Longhorns but never played a down for them?
just checked in with Clark Judge and yes the current ongoing work by the coaches BRP has included BillB as a nominee on their preliminary list for class of 2025 as he’s not currently coaching in 2024 which would be his one year waiting period.
And coaches prelim list is NOT made public or screened by a separate committee, coaches BRP comes up with their own list of candidates, first public announcement we will see about coaches process (late this month or in October) are the 12 semi-finalists.