As we look ahead to the 2025 Pro Football Hall of Fame class, the list of potential inductees includes an interesting mix of first-year eligible players and returning finalists who have come close in previous years. This class is poised to generate significant debate, as due to overall career length (Kuechly), hot and cold regular season performance vs postseason heroics (Manning) and position (Vinatieri), there are arguments for and against basically all the first year candidates. Add in a list of at least six candidates that have made the final five cut list in the last two years, with Jared Allen making it in 2023 but not 2024, and it shapes up to be an interesting class for sure.
2025 First-Year Hall of Fame Eligibles
- Luke Kuechly: Kuechly, with his seven Pro Bowl selections, five First-Team All-Pro nods, and 2013 Defensive Player of the Year award, leads this year’s list of first-time eligible players. Though his career was cut short by injury, his impact on the field was undeniable, making him a strong contender for first-ballot induction–and the election of Patrick Willis signifies that career length isn’t as big of a deal as some might think.
- Eli Manning: Manning’s Hall of Fame credentials are well-known, with two Super Bowl MVPs and top-10 rankings in passing yards and touchdowns. His postseason heroics, particularly in defeating the Patriots twice, could secure his place in the Hall on his first try.
- Marshawn Lynch: Known for his punishing running style and “Beast Mode” persona, Lynch rushed for over 10,000 yards and 85 touchdowns in his career. His memorable playoff performances, including the iconic “Beast Quake” run, make him a compelling candidate.
- Earl Thomas: A key member of the Seahawks’ “Legion of Boom,” Thomas was a seven-time Pro Bowler and a three-time First-Team All-Pro. His ball-hawking ability and leadership in the secondary played a critical role in Seattle’s Super Bowl XLVIII victory.
- Adam Vinatieri: Vinatieri is arguably the most clutch kicker in NFL history, with four Super Bowl rings and multiple game-winning kicks in the biggest moments. As the NFL’s all-time leading scorer, his induction feels inevitable.
- Terrell Suggs: Suggs, a dominant force on the Ravens’ defense, ranks eighth all-time in sacks with 139 and won Defensive Player of the Year in 2011. His physical style and leadership helped Baltimore secure two Super Bowl titles.
- Travis Frederick: Frederick was a five-time Pro Bowler and a key piece of the Cowboys’ dominant offensive line. His sudden retirement due to illness cut short a promising career, but his impact during his time in the league was significant.
- Darren Sproles: Sproles, one of the most versatile players in NFL history, was a dynamic return specialist, rusher, and receiver. His ability to make plays in multiple phases of the game earned him a spot in the NFL’s All-Decade Team of the 2010s.
Returning Finalists
- Torry Holt: Holt, who was one of the final five candidates eliminated in 2024, remains a top contender for induction. As a key member of the “Greatest Show on Turf,” Holt’s career was defined by consistency and excellence, amassing over 13,000 receiving yards and 74 touchdowns.
- Reggie Wayne: Like Holt, Wayne was also among the final five eliminated in 2024. His connection with Peyton Manning and his clutch performances in big games make him one of the top wide receivers not yet in the Hall.
- Antonio Gates: Gates, the greatest tight end in NFL history in terms of touchdown receptions, was another final 10 finalist in 2024. His athleticism and ability to create mismatches made him a nightmare for defenses and a cornerstone of the Chargers’ offense for years.
- Willie Anderson: Anderson, a four-time Pro Bowler and three-time First-Team All-Pro, was also in the final 10 in 2024. As one of the most dominant right tackles of his era, Anderson’s candidacy continues to gain momentum.
- Darren Woodson: Woodson, a key member of the Cowboys’ defense during their 1990s dynasty, also made it to the final five eliminated in 2024. His physicality and versatility at safety earned him three Super Bowl rings and five Pro Bowl selections.
- Jared Allen: After being in the final 10 in 2023 but not in 2024, Allen remains a strong candidate. With 136 career sacks, Allen was one of the most feared pass rushers of his era, and his consistent production over 12 seasons makes him a likely Hall of Famer.
- Jahri Evans: Evans, a six-time Pro Bowler and four-time First-Team All-Pro, was a dominant force on the Saints’ offensive line. His blocking helped New Orleans to multiple playoff appearances, including their Super Bowl XLIV win.
- Rodney Harrison: Harrison, a hard-hitting safety known for his physical style, was a key part of the Patriots’ dynasty in the early 2000s. With two Super Bowl rings and four All-Pro selections, his candidacy continues to be debated.
- Fred Taylor: Taylor’s career numbers, including nearly 12,000 rushing yards, have kept him in the conversation, though injuries during his career may have impacted his chances. His consistency and explosiveness at running back make him a strong candidate.
- Eric Allen: Allen, with 54 career interceptions and six Pro Bowl selections, was one of the best cornerbacks of his era. His leadership in the secondary and ability to make big plays in critical moments keep him in the discussion for induction.
Semifinalists From 2024
The list of semifinalists cut before the final round of voting in 2024 includes several players who may continue to make a push for the Hall in 2025:
- Steve Smith
- Anquan Boldin
- James Harrison
- Hines Ward
- Ricky Watters
- Vince Wilfork
- Tiki Barber
- London Fletcher
- Eddie George
- Robert Mathis
With another year of no sure thing first year candidates, and a considerable logjam still existing at WR, the 2025 Pro Football Hall of Fame Class debate will undoubtedly be as interesting as the debate for the 2024 class–and that’s just the modern day candidates, as obviously the senior & contributor candidates are also hotly debated.
Leave your comments below on where you think the class debate will head!
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I have a feeling this could be a clearing of the backlog of candidates year with possibly no first timers
Possible outcome – although LukeK has a strong resume, will be interesting to see how voters assess his case
Agreed 100% could he have a similar wait to willis time will tell
Travis Frederick 1/5 is a name that will be soon forgotten. You can argue he was on track to be a HOFer but IMO that’s all. He didn’t show the dominance of the only short career Center in the HOF, Dwight Stephenson 4/5. We can’t put every player who shows flashes early in their careers into the HOF. lol Sorry, injuries rob great players of their immortality. If it didn’t Billy Sims would be in the HOF. And it’s ok. :)
I don’t know what to think about Robert Mathis now that his sidekick Freeney is in the HOF. I suppose they can justify keeping him out based on his accolades not measuring up to Freeney but as stated before I had him slightly ahead of him. I would of rather seen neither of them in the HOF than have both in just in the same way Swann and Stallworth.
I don’t think Jim Plunkett should be in the HOF. Is there really that much difference between he and Eli Manning? Put Plunkett in Mannings time or vise versa. I think they are very much the same. I’d favor Plunkett slightly.
I think Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt are products on their system. I know I’ll get pushback. :) I’d take a player like Mark Clayton or Gary Clark over Wayne’s elevated numbers many years as a WR 2 alongside Marvin Harrison.
Believe it or not I’m in full agreement with what all you said about holt and Wayne 100% Tony P my question to you is If you had to decide between Clayton or Clark who would it be and why
Thanks Tony …
im only going to say this 1 time and this will be the only time ill say this during this timeframe i am mainly focused on seniors from the 70s to the 90s while some of you are mainly focused on the super seniors
I think it’s possible we don’t see any first ballot Hall of Famer I think it’ll be primarily a clean up year and we won’t see any first ballot Hall of Famers until Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald in 2026 you know what they say life is full of surprises
Resume of Eli isn’t same as Plunkett – one has 2x SB MVP, pro bowl selections, seasons in top 5 of passing stats and top 10 career passing stats – the other doesn’t
I would agree with Paul- Eli Manning was a better QB than Plunkett. Having said that, I am on the fence with Eli being inducted into the HOF.
You forgot Marshal Yanda. He will for sure make the HOF as a modern candidate.
Yanda is deserving, but being a guard, we will see how long it will take him to be elected. Evans will probably get voted in first, yet you never know?
Despite having Odell Beckham Jr. in five of his last seven seasons with the Giants, Eli Manning led his team to only one playoff berth(2016) while compiling a 39-61 record counting postseason as starter. Not exactly helping his HOF resume but he was clutch in postseason–like Plunkett–has over 120 career starting victories, counting postseason and longevity to help his passing numbers.
Beating Brady in two SBs helps also, but the defense for NY was outstanding. Will it be enough?
Probably so, but he should wait awhile. Those last seven seasons were rough, which is why I don’t support him, but it’s very close. Most QBs would love to win two SBs in nine years.
Brian would you be in favor of a clearing of the backlog in terms of modern era players
Paul may be right about Kuechly getting in first ballot and is deserving but if Willis had to wait, he probably should till next year. Even Gates had to wait, so I see another clearing out this year. The big question is, will Holt or Wayne get their chance this year?
With this era of inflated receiver numbers, more players are reaching the 11,000-14,000 yard milestones, and if they don’t truly separate themselves, hard to determine who is deserving.
Right now alone, active receivers like Keenan Allen, Davante Adams, Mike Evans, DeAndre Hopkins, Julio Jones, Tyreek Hill and Stephon Diggs are adding to over 10,000 yards receiving and when they retire, they will face the same problem as the current list of eligibles.
If Holt, Wayne, Smith or Ward don’t get in this year, Fitzgerald will be the next one elected. Antonio Brown is coming up soon as well, so the voters have a lot to think about. Of the active group for the future, it’s easy to see Julio Jones getting elected, but Evans and Adams far surpass him in TDs, which will help their cases. I feel if Tyreek Hill passes the 2000 yard barrier in a season–whether this year or next–it will help get him elected first ballot, but we shall see?
I see Gates Holt and Allen as “locks” for class of 2025–real questions and potential surprises (as every election has one) lie with slots #4 and 5 with LukeK and returning 2024 final 10 players WAnderson DWoodson in the mix, but also someone among 11-15 from 2024 could jump the queue. Just don’t see opportunity for election by other first ballot candidates or other returning/new semifinalists..
Brian I think Holt and Wayne both get elected clearing the logjam for Fitzgerald to get in next year and Smith becomes a finalist this year and gets elected in the years to come
Here’s what Gary Myers said in response to a tweet saying the voters should meet to discuss the other two cutdowns nominees and semifinalists
The initial list is about 100 candidates that would take a week to discuss discussing the 25 semifinalists would take about 10 hours I think the current setup is perfect
Robert,
Mark Duper was my favorite WR of the duo to watch but Clayton has the better HOF case. That said I’ve come to the realization that neither probably deserves to be in. IMO diminutive players get short shrift no pun intended. lol I could however justify Mark Clayton on the entrance of several other HOFers. If I had to pick one diminutive WR for the HOF it would be Gary Clark oh so slightly over Clayton. When in doubt I like players who have won something. :)
I can envision Plunkett with comparable stats if he played in Eli’s time. What Eli’s stats prove is he played a lot of years in a pass happy League. His regular seasons weren’t anything special.
I said Eli’s regular seasons weren’t special. Probably not accurate. He was good not great and the Giants had several really good seasons. Looking at just all the numbers it’s hard to deny Manning’s entrance into the HOF. But I think most people would agree that it felt like Eli came up short of his potential in a great many years. With 2 SB MVPs we all wanted to crown him for his career. He left us wanting more.
If I picked a smaller receiver for the HOF, it has to be Steve Smith Sr. He was tougher than anyone bigger and has the postseason numbers–and kick/punt return numbers–that surpass other more well known receivers.
I am interested to see if Earl Thomas makes the finalist list this year, along with Jahri Evans. Those two could be dominant at their positions, but Thomas’ career fizzled out once he had problems outside of football.
Today’s announced changes to the voting process are frankly revolutionary. There will undoubtedly be less HOFers moving forward, which appears to have been the intent. The idea that only 3 of 5 nominees from the senior/coach/contributor categories can be elected encourages a repeat of last year’s results: i.e., the exclusion of the contributor nominee and one of the senior nominees. And as concerning as that is, the change to the modern era voting is even more concerns. The Athletic is saying that the cut down votes will be 15 to 10; 10 to 7; and then the top 3 to 5 vote getters from the 7 being elected provided that the candidate receives 80% of the vote. This is essentially going back to the days when Swann, Youngblood, Parcells, Carson, Stephenson, Irving, Hendricks, Al Davis, etc. were voted down in the final vote effectively wasting slots each year and creating the “senior backlog” we all abhor. Simply wild that the board would make this change. I guess we are moving into a new “small hall” era. Deion must be glowing. Wonder how the voters are going to feel–and this is before the new non-voter nomination process is taken into account.
Not quite how I read it Justin I think you and I read it much differently
Robert: How are you viewing it? The NFL.com story is the one mentioning the change in cutdown voting for moderns. Take the following simple hypothetical: 7 candidates and 10 voters with 5 votes each (50 votes total)
Candidate 1 (“Tom Brady” type) gets 10 votes
Candidate 2 (“Aaron Donald type) gets 10 votes
Candidate 3 (“Antonio Gates” type) get 7 votes
Candidates 4-7 split the remaining 23 votes evenly each getting 5 or 6 votes.
Candidates 1 and 2 sail in. Candidate 3 gets in even though he didn’t cross 80% because of the rule that a minimum of 3 are elected each year. Candidates 4-7 wait another year. Two spots are wasted. Think about polarizing candidates like Eli Manning–enough support consistently get him into the final 7, but more than enough critics to keep him below 80% for years potentially wasting a spot year after year after year.
As those of us who frequent this site have repeatedly illustrated, informed individuals can have different opinions when the differences between the candidates are fairly small. Easy to see candidates 3-7 being ranked almost evenly.
in short, I’m confident there will be less HOFers moving forward (which again, the stories state was the point of this change). Everyone can have their own opinion on whether that fact is positive or negative. As a “big hall” guy, I tend to think this is a negative. Interested in everyone else’s opinion.
So, more committees making recommendations just to get shot down by voters? Or do the senior/coach/contributor committees actually vote in the nominations?
I swear some of you love to complain and nitpick every little thing on a daily basis
Robert: I did focus exclusively on the negative. I do like the new screening committees made up of non-voters. I think that will help make sure we don’t have a repeat of Richmond Webb being left off the preliminary ballot multiple times. More voices are a good thing. That said, the rest of the changes are bad from a “big hall” perspective.
I assume your statements means you are a “small hall” person, which is perfectly fine. Lots and lots of people are.
But the PFHOF was already the most exclusive HOF in American pro sports (percentage wise), and these changes make it more exclusive. That isn’t a nitpick. It is highly significant. Some people may like that, including you. I don’t. But of course, no one is actually asking for my opinion. I asked for yours (thank you for providing), and welcome other’s opinions as well.
Nitpick … get a grip Robert, I asked a question. The process doesn’t seem to be too much different but I have to read more.
My bad Brian, I was thinking about older WR’s. Smith has a decent case and could eventually be an example of the 5’9″ snub. :) Like Hines Ward, Smith has a tough guy persona which is admirable. The amount of catches seem a little underwhelming though for the 2000’s. Like Ward only one 100 plus catch season.
I don’t know about the voting. Sounds a little political trying to affect the outcome but still have an appearance of being an open process.
These are huge changes that certainly open up chances for smaller classes and fewer seniors. Adding non-media to the process is welcome opportunity but seems lost when the 50 member (media) selection committee can still decide to focus on players coaches contributors they know because they covered them during their media careers since 2000.not sure collectively the changes make process and outcomes better.
I wouldn’t have a problem with Clayton or Clark but I would make them wait TonyP …
As per voter Frank Cooney, the non-media added as voters to the 9 member senior, coach and contributor committees are:
Seniors-Turney, Wolf; coach-Kirwin, PKing (recently resigned as voter); contributor-Crippen, Czarnecki (recently resigned as voter)
We all have to hope moving forward that the three seniors get nominated at the expense of the coach and contributor nominees … If Kraft were to get voted in for 2025 and Belichick for 2026, that’s only four senior slots out of a possible six, which could happen. Either way, like Justin and Paul explained, despite a shake-up on the committees, voters can still vote these nominations down and recentism can still rule the day. I don’t believe it’s any better Paul, especially if there is pressure to get an owner voted in.
Hopefully, no matter who the five nominees are, the voters will simply vote them in, since the process will go alongside the senior process.
Sorry Super Seniors, you’re chances are put to pasture, unless somehow, the coaches and contributor nominees can be bypassed over the next 6-10 years. Very doubtful …
Class Of 2025 Wishlist
Woodson
Gates
Nalen
Wisniewski ?? (Can a fourth modern make it?)
Lewellen
Wistert
Brito
Prediction
Gates
J Allen
Holt
Kuechly ??
Kraft
Sharpe
K Anderson
I have mixed feelings about the changes
I like having historians and other non media members on the senior coach and contributor committees
Will the nominees semi finalists and finalists continue to be announced same with seniors coaches and contributors
I like coach and contributor being separate again
I don’t like only one senior out of three will be elected
I’m worried this will only increase the senior backlog
I like the waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year
I’ll have to revise my statement when Tom Brady is announced as a Hall of Famer in 2028 at NFL Honors
You can now join your boyhood hero (Joe Montana) your owner (Robert Kraft) your head coach (Bill Belichick) and your tight end (Rob Gronkowski)
The waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year means I’ll see Robert Kraft Bill Belichick and Rob Gronkowski with Gold Jackets when I go to Canton in August 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
I’m going to email the Pro Football Hall of Fame to tell them about my feelings
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever for better or worst
Revised prediction (only because rules and # of slots have changed: LukeK,Gates,Holt,JAllen,DWoodson,SSharpe, MikeH, RKraft
Andy P
Brady and Adam V for 2028?
I hope it’s at least two seniors, Paul
That would be awesome BoKnows34
I feel Kraft, then Belichick–2026, then Wilfork–2027, then Brady, Vinny …
I predict Belichick will coach Philly in 2025, so he may wait …
It won’t be two seniors when there is both a strong coach and a strong contributor among five finalists. Once the committee runs out of strong contributors we would then get two seniors
Boknows I don’t know about Adam Vinatieri he may wait awhile
Brian I don’t think Wilfork’s a Hall of Famer
Paul did you see my comment about my feelings
I think we will be seeing preliminary lists (50)- late September; semifinalists (25)-late November, and finalists (15+5)-late December all announced at those same times for modern, seniors, coaches and contributors
Brian
Swap Wilfork for Gronk in 2027.
Haha … good call BoKnows. Forgot he is eligible and will be first ballot. Hoping Witten would get elected first but its doubtful …
Though it’s a hard site to navigate, interesting, subjective list of top 100 players on the notinthehalloffame website … fan friendly in terms of help ranking players but not a lot of comments that I have seen, unless they were turned off?
Notinthehalloffame Top 30 Players Listed
1) Antonio Gates
2) Luke Kuechly
3) Marshal Yanda
4) LC Greenwood
5) Lavvie Dilweg
6) Torry Holt
7) Roger Craig
8) Earl Thomas
9) Ken Anderson
10) Del Shofner
11) Reggie Wayne
12) Jim Tyrer
13) Terrell Suggs
14) Otis Taylor
15) Maxie Baughan
16) Lemar Parrish
17) Lester Hayes
18) Jared Allen
19) Deron Cherry
20) Ox Emerson
21) Steve Wisniewski
22) Jim Marshall
23) Charlie Conerly
24) Steve Smith Sr
25) Kevin Williams
26) Sterling Sharpe
27) Louis Wright
28) Roman Gabriel
29) Randall Cunningham
30) Tommy Nobis
They rank players to 400 I think but I haven’t gotten that far, takes too much time. Interesting that site founder, Kirk Buchner, created a hypothetical listing of Hall Of Fame classes starting in 1946. Good reads.
Paul why did they reduce the preliminary finalists to 50
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever
If there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever for better or worst
Andy I don’t know for sure but in past heard voters say 100+ preliminary list was ridiculous and last year it hit 170+ so not surprised Hall decided to reel that in. Seems doubtful moderns, seniors, coaches and contributors have more than 50 in each group who actually deserve and would ever get in.
Paul there are some worthy preliminary finalists that have yet to be semi finalists like John Abraham Jeff Saturday Richmond Webb Kevin Williams Steve Wisniewski Shane Lechler who were those voters and do you agree with me if there’s one thing we know the changes won’t last forever
It really doesn’t matter about the number of preliminary candidates, the committees just have to make sure a worthy candidate is noted, so a Webb or Berry isn’t mistakenly omitted or left off the ballot. The screening process should be better this year, though many will never get voted in. Submissions by fans deserve to be noted as well, even though they will be eliminated quickly, if the players had no accolades to help advance them.
I feel once Kraft is voted in, the contributor category will continue to slow down and coaches and seniors will get more attention but I also feel that Art Rooney Jr and Murchison get a lot of support but may continue to wait awhile, as I feel they should. The coaches category will also slow down once Holmgren, Shanahan and maybe a Coughlin or Reeves gets voted in but we will see.
I still feel Knox or Schottenheimer we’re just as good but we’re snakebit in postseason.
Another thing about the seniors, we can’t assume the deck will be reshuffled with added or omitted players this year. They will probably just continue to focus on the top 4-6 from last year …
Brian we’ll just see and do you agree with me about what I said about the changes not lasting forever I’m going to email Rick Gosselin and tell him to tell all members of the selection committee and contributor committee to read the book Hole in the Roof so they can learn about Clint Murchison and why he belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame I don’t think he waits awhile I think he gets named the contributor finalist one of these years and elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame hopefully 2028
You should read Hole in the Roof too I have it and it’s great here’s a link
https://www.amazon.com/Hole-Roof-Murchison-Swaim-Paup-sponsored/dp/1648430961
I understand your position, Andy P …
The new screening process could happen before November with 50 being reduced to 25 as semifinalists in November and reduced to 15 finalists in December, if I am not mistaken.
Hopefully, Tony and Andy can put up a post covering this upcoming season as well.
Just wanted to note that Justin’s explanation about the voting process was spot on, and I believe we are going to have years with only 3-4 modern finalist going into the hall. Get ready for huge backlogs moving forward if this structure remains intact for 4 or 5 years.
As per Judge post via talkoffametwo.com on twitter today:
cut to 50 for each group is Sept 30th
cut to 25 for seniors is Oct, moderns is late Nov
I think we can safely assume as per usual, the finalists (now set at 15 moderns, 3 seniors, 1 coach, I contributor) remains late December
– all of these will be announced via official press release from PFHOF
with final selection (election) meeting held in-person in mid January
official announcement of class of 2025 during the NFL Honors Show, live during the Thursday evening before SuperBowl weekend
Bill: I checked with Clark Judge about the possibility of less than 5 moderns being elected, the math means its possible (with 7 its possible 5 don’t get to 80% each), but he seem to think an occasional and random possibility of 4 could happen, still thinks voters will end up electing 5 moderns. BTW the voters weren’t consulted on any of these recent changes and don’t know why some revisions were even needed or made.
When we get to the Top 7 modern era finalists do the voters just select a max of 5 on their ballot?
And similar for the seniors/coach/contributor cutdown rom 5 to 3?
It would a lot simpler just to cut down to 5 modern era as before and 3 seniors/coach/contributor, with a straight Yes/No.
Thanks for the information Paul … we will see if 5 moderns get elected but Justin has a point, certain players–1st ballot–could swallow the votes.
Paul will the finalists still be announced on NFL Network and why weren’t the voters consulted they should have been
Modern process going to a little tricky but once at the final 7 each voter can only select 5 names on their ballots, top 5 over 80% are elected, or could be 3 or 4 if only those numbers get the 80%. Min 3 is required so will be top three even if that includes some below the 80%
for 5 senior coach and contributors there is no vote down, top 3 with 80% are elected or could 1 or 2 if only those get 80% (or 0 if done do).
I would assume NFL network will have announcement show of 20 finalists in late December as been norm for moderns.
I don’t think Wilfork is a HOFer either but he probably will be over Bob Baumhower, Fred Smerlas, Jerry Ball and Casey Hampton. He was a likeable Patriot.
its clear we are are going to see more total classes of 6 and 7 (as max is now 8), that might include more modern classes of 4-which has not been the case in last 15+ elections, just pointing that out as Wilfork seems to me as example as a fringe PFHOF who might not get 80% yes voters if he ever even gets to the stage as a 7 modern candidate finalist…clearly voters will be getting more selective
Paul I hope not we’ll just see what happens
You know what they say life is full of surprises
Changes were intentionally made to increase frequency of smaller classes. 8 and more 6 or 7 so let’s not be surprised when it starts to happen
The math isn’t difficult. Unless there is consensus in the room (or collusion), the classes will undoubtedly be smaller, which means a greater backlog, less candidates cycling through the room, and potential gridlock in a worst case scenario—read Eli Manning.
Paul why would they do that I don’t get it and where did you get this information
Paul any updates on the Eye Test for Two
Plenty of comments online from voters on how these changes will result in smaller classes – Frank Cooney has written extensively about impact from changes and don’t have update on the podcast
Paul I’ve been wondering how come they reduced the waiting period for coaches to one year and why did they separate coaches and contributors again
Justin good to see you back where have you been
there is a lot to wonder about many of these changes (some of which seem to make no sense, were rushed and as we have read were done with little or no consultation with voters)…I think Hall is looking for direct path to finalists round so their cases can be heard by the full selection committee-Kraft and a few other contributors (cause really there are not that many deserving ) and same for BillB, MikeH, MikeS, Andy Reid etc….
would be hilarious if the final 5 presented to voters for class of 2025 included both Bill and Kraft…could very well happen under this system
and as I posted on Twitter (I refuse to call it by their newer stupider name) the more I think about these massive changes and the thought process by the Hall, makes me wonder if a major intent is to create more controversy, debate, outrage and uncertainly over the results-by media and the public but also among the voters, especially their in person election meeting in January- no one knows or can as easily predict the results, and also Hall is catering to the small Hall folks with a system that will have lower max of 8, and clearly years with even fewer selected.
its also a new system plagued with so many flaws, that there will be modifications, perhaps as soon as next year
They will soon run out of worthy contributors and would not be surprised if we eventually go back to a coach/contributor category.
15-10-5 for modern era then straight Yes/No as it was before.
5-3 for seniors, coaches etc then straight Yes/No would be so much better.
I agree, it may be 2 or 3 or 5 years down the road but this new process will again need to be modified as now (but certainly in a few more years) there will be even more deserving seniors left then coaches and far more than contributors (who I could count on one hand at this point). And with 5 tossed in with only 3 elected, those coaches but especially contributors are going to have very strong resumes and convincing cases to poin where 80% of 50 voters would select them over senior players
with this unnecessarily complex new process, and without even consulting many voters (especially long serving ones) is just ripe for correction by the Hall, perhaps as soon as the class of 2026 timeline
I’m sure there will be a few private conversations behind the scenes among the modern era voters on why the final voting process has to be so convoluted and how they were not consulted on the changes. Though I do like the other changes made for having a list of 50 Modern Era instead of a bloated 150 plus, and the transparency of 50 Seniors cut down to 25 and then three.
I do like several of the changes but the cutdown from 10 moderns to 7 finalists and then voters only allowed to vote for 5, who must make 80% plus the forcing 3 seniors + 1 contributor + 1 coach into list of 5 where only 3 can be elected seem convoluted unnecessary steps to me.
BTW I understand although the modern 50 preliminary (also like the process, committee and smaller) will still be made public-end of September, the same lists for senior, coaches and contributors will not be-but all the semifinalist (25) lists will be.
I’ve got a theory they want Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick elected so they can both knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski in 2027 and Tom Brady in 2028 and introduce them at NFL Honors
Paul why not release the preliminary lists for seniors coaches and contributors
Just to be sure, Belichick won’t be eligible till 2026 but I feel he will coach again in the NFC East –Philly or NY–
Here are the the people affiliated with the Patriots who will be elected the next four years
2025-Robert Kraft
2026-Bill Belichick
2027-Rob Gronkowski
2028-Tom Brady
no idea Andy P…but a member of the seniors committee replied to someones twitter message that only the 50 modern preliminary list will be released (late September), first list we will see for the seniors will be the 25+ties at end of October.
and according to Judge and others, unless it gets clarified from the PFHOF, since BillB is not coaching in 2024 season, that will represent his one year/season waiting period, and thus eligible to be considered as coach candidate for class of 2025-would be hilarious if among the 5 finalists where max 3 can be elected, that cases for Kraft and Bill would have to compete head to head (along with the 3 senior finalists)
agree that after the 2025 election, very possible Hall continues to tweet these rules as guessing there will be unforeseen issues plus push by many voters for Hall to better consult and communicate with them about process and possible improvements.
but as long as we have seniors, coaches and contributors fighting it out for only 3 slots (plus given that a senior and coach were not elected by full committee in class of 2024), once process deals with the top few contributors–that path for others will get to be close to impossible as far more deserving, hence higher quality resumes, of seniors and coaches will be finalist-plus 50 voters will often prefer players over non-players..I don’t see it hurting Kraft, BillB, AReid, MikeH, MikeS but other coaches-and especially contributors like Clint Murchison are facing dim prospects for election.
Which I believe was one intended outcome of these new rules-reduce # of PFHOFers elected each year, create better path for coaches (at expense of seniors) and make it very hard for contributors to get elected. Just think of a year where those 5 consist of Ken Anderson, Albert Lewis, Henry Ellard, MikeS, and Murchison – I think we can all agree the contributor will have very hard time getting in other the others (keeping in mind voters are not required to elect 3..could be 2, 1, or even 0
Paul what other coaches face dim chances why do they face dim chances same with contributors like Clint Murchison and what changes seem to make no sense or were rushed
Paul of those five I’d elect Ken Anderson Mike Shanahan and Clint Murchison
If given choice (and they will have one) voters will tend to select players over non-players.
This whole mess seems rushed and not well thought through and lacked any discussions and transparency with the voters. Just watch how quickly Hall moves to fix problems in coming years
Yep, the chances of a Buddy Parker or Buck Shaw getting elected are over, till much farther down the line.
Mike Florio of ProFootballTalk believes that since the election process is beginning during the 2024 season, which won’t officially end till after the Feb SB, that Belichick won’t be eligible, but like you said Paul, it’s up to confirmation from the PFHOF.
I just get a feeling with Kelce retiring and the Eagles defense changing–not to mention an impatient owner in Lurie–if the Eagles don’t go farther in the playoffs, Sirianni could get fired and if Daboll went through the same thing in NY, those openings could happen for Belichick, who wants to break Shula’s record.
I am convinced that once the Cowboys falter–and we know they will–Jones will get rid of McCarthy but won’t hire Belichick, because he wants to stay his own general manager.
2024 Season Thoughts ( Till We Get A Separate Thread)
–Guardian Caps can and will be used over Helmets during the season, could this be Christmas fashion trend?
–The Dolphins extended the contract for boy-wonder HC Mike McDaniels but can this guy get his team to avoid injuries and win when it counts?
They have a great chance to take the division over a weaker Buffalo team but can they finish strong and make the AFC championship game?
Tyreek Hill wants a 2000 yard season but winning in the postseason, has to be the team’s focus. He will already make the HOF.
–Andrews and Likely in Baltimore will be the first tandem of Tight Ends with over 1000 yards receiving.
–I predict the Steelers and Lions will be in the SB. I feel Tomlin can light a fire under Wilson and Detroit will get much better on defense, they just hope their HC don’t make dumb calls on 4th down. I don’t think the Niners under Shanahan can win it all, which is a shame considering their talent.
–Which rookie will be the big splash? Williams could be a star in Chicago but it’s a long year. Could a receiver like Harrison Jr. or Nabers help their teams win? Who will be the big star on defenses?
Sad that Case Keenum in Houston is now on injured reserve. Was hoping he could help the team advance into the playoffs, but it’s Strouds team and can he get even better?
Jeez … didn’t edit my last comments well. Lots of errors … sorry.
Paul when it comes to Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick voters will select them and I agree with you this seems rushed and not well thought through and lacked any discussions and transparency with voters
Brian we’ll just see
One way to look at this is BillB eligible or not for class of 2025, Eli will be eligible and not playing 2024 season is part of his 5 yr waiting period. But I guess we will seen when coach ballot is made public or if Hall (or voters) posts clarification
I hope former HC Dan Reeves enters the HOF soon. Not only a top notch HC but a human being too. His no nonsense approach reminds me a little of Tom Coughlin another HC who should be in the HOF asap.
Tony I agree with you hopefully after Bill Belichick and Mike Holmgren
Not convinced that Reeves has a case as strong as 2x SB winners MikeS and Coughlin, and perhaps he even waits until after Andy Reid is elected.
But with only one coach finalist each year (and no direct path to election), beyond a handful of HC, I suspect many will have hard time competing directly against senior finalists for the 3 slots given that many voters prefer players over coaches. I think this new system actually hurts HC like Reeves, whose chances might improve when (and not if, as it will happen) Hall again tinkers with the election process which many people will occur again in a few years.
Bud Grant 18 years HC 158-96-5 4 SB losses and one time Coach of the year waited 9 years to be a HOFer.
Marv Levy 17 years HC 143-112 4 SB losses Zero AP coach of the year waited 4 years.
Dan Reeves 23 years HC 190-165-2 4 SB losses (took 2 cities) and two time Coach of the year still waiting 21 years .
Can’t tell me media personality doesn’t matter. :)
Those huge SB Denver losses really hurt Reeves resume in eyes of the voters, and his win% is far worse than Grant and Levy…plus let’s remember its only been since 2020 that coaches had direct path to election and even since then its been shared with contributors. Now facing BillB, MikeS, MikeH, TomC (and soon to be Reid)..he’s got a tough path.. but he’s been a finalist so that helps him a lot..I think unless new system changes, if ever a coach finalist it very possible a strong contributor candidate and 2 senior players could keep him out..but only time will tell. Frankly he fairs much better if coaches had direct path to election or alternated every other year with contributors..
Paul what do you mean the new system hurts head coaches what about Bill Belichick he’s going to need no discussion when it’s time to present his case to the Selection Committee Ron Borges the New England representative will just get up and say Bill Belichick and that’ll be it just like what he’ll do with Tom Brady in 2028 when it’s time to present him to the Selection Committee he will just get up and say Tom Brady and that’ll be it
I think this new system only lasts one election the voters will complain to Jim Porter and he’ll have no choice but to change the system again going back to three seniors being elected and combining coaches and contributors again
Belichick is a different case altogether. A slam dunk choice. As will be Andy Reid some day.
The new system will hurt head coaches as they are no longer fast tracked to the final vote. They now have to compete with a very deep Seniors pool for those votes. However I’m sure there will be further changes and one of them will be combining coaches and contributors once again.
Boknows that’s what I said
Brian- Steelers have a lot of warts. I don’t see them as a Super Bowl contender. They will be lucky to even make playoffs. I hate the new HOF voting process. It wasn’t broken.
No system is going to hurt chances for BillB (or Reid) but for many other coaches-whom to date have never been finalist (MikeH, MikeS, Reeves etc..) a new process that makes them compete directly against 3 seniors (players) for election hurts the coaches pool of candidates-for the same reason for decades – prior to 2000- HC had a hard time, including some still waiting, when voters -some have stated this publicly – if faced with choice would select a player over a coach..again that’s not going to be issue for BillB or AReid but for many other HCs who in 2021-2024 had a direct path to elect not against players, now again have thatblock placed in front of them
You’re right Bill, yet I think Wilson will respond. His calf is giving him issues right now, so Fields might see more early action but we will see how the year progresses.
Likely for Baltimore had a great game last night but just couldnt drag his toe to get the possible tying TD. The Chiefs linebacker–I think it was Bolton–rode him just enough to drive him out of bounds and deserves some credit. Jackson should have hit Likely with the TD pass two plays earlier at the corner pylon but missed him. Then he missed a wide open Flowers on the very next play.
Worthy for the Chiefs played well but the Ravens forgot where he was on the easy TD pass. With players missing a lot of preseason action, there will be a lot of sloppy play and cheap TDs this weekend.
The interesting thing about suggesting voters will press the Hall as soon as next year to toss these new changes out and go back to the old system (its possible but seems unlikely for reasons I will explain) is that a major reason these changes were pushed by the Hall was because some voters pressed them on the issue of electing too many each year-as did others in media and likely some current PFHOFers. Point here is that there are no doubt voters who were not heard and do not like these new changes (and we have heard publicly from some of those in recent weeks) yet apparently there are also voters who like a system where only 5-7 are elected each year. What will be interesting over next few years is who the Hall staff will hear from and which groups of voters and loudest voices will prevail-keep new process or toss it out.
Today I think its hard to say which will win out..I suspect minor revisions will happen in next few years, but be assured Hall is not going back to 3 seniors per year and potential for 8 or 9 PFHOFers elected each year. Best we can hope for (in regards to seniors) is not a direct compete with coaches-contributors but 2 seniors per year + annual rotation of one coach-contributor, and system that continues to increase chances that max 5 moderns are not elected each year…thus more classes that look like 4 modern+2 seniors+1 coach/contributor=7 (and still path by which 50 voters do not elect the seniors and coach-contributors each year, giving us classes of 6 on occasion). Hall is not going back to any system in near future with 8 to 9 elected per year.
Its clear we are heading into an era of small Hall, after an era over last decade+ of 7-9 elected per year representing big Hall view. Willing to bet that if we look back in 2035 at a decade of elections, total elected PFHOFers will be less than 2014-2024 total (excluding centennial class).
Sad it say it but more deserving seniors will wait, including more who will not live to see their election-terrible for them and their families but it appears the direction the Hall is going, shocking as it is especially given comments from Porter when he first assumed the job and expressed interest-after discussions with voters-to get more candidates discussed and elected-and even more shocking how within a just few years the view of enough influencers flipped from big Hall back to small Hall. And as we continue to see more long term veteran selection committee members (voters) depart – for example Peter King is no longer a voter – and more of those in late 60s or older (who actually covered and studied the game pre 1990, some back into the 1960s) that committee will quickly become younger and few have interest in electing seniors from before 1990. Yes its great to now have non-media and historians as part of the new processes and on the subcommittees with voting rights that select the senior, coach and contributors finalists-but only 2 among the 9 – will they be enough to influence the other 7 subcommittee members to advance a finalist from pre 1990??
There’s only one person to blame for all this ands it’s the one who started it Deion Sanders why did he have to sound off on the Pro Football Hall of Fame
Deion’s comments likely a factor, but since the 2000 centennial class there have been grumbling from some in the media, including voters that classes were too large..I am just surprised that after listening to the voters after he was appointed in 2022, then getting Hall that year to create rules allowing for 3 seniors and up to 9 total elected each year for 2023-2025…after only two years (apparently after not consulting the entire voting body or even the most experienced long serving like Kaufman and Judge), Porter completely flipped the system to create a process that will cap total at 8 but perhaps even more importantly create a process where smaller classes of 6 or 7 – even 5 – are possible-as stated in the Hall press release on changes.
“With the revisions, a new class could be comprised of four to eight individuals, but with the 80% approval threshold, classes are more likely, statistically, to include five or six members.”
Bizarre switch from large hall view to small hall view (back to how it was from 1963 into early 2000s) in just two years-stunning in fact.
Paul the Centennial Class happened in 2020 I wish they had consulted the voters I’m surprised too that Jim Porter made the switch I bet the voters are upset that they weren’t consulted especially Rick Gosselin Ira Kaufman and Clark Judge what do you like about the changes and what don’t you like about the changes
I like involving non-voters in preparing the initial list of 50 and having non-voters on each of the blue ribbon subcommittees, I don’t like the grouping 5 seniors coach and contributor and only 3 can be elected (hurts seniors), and I think the last vote down for moderns at 7 where its 5 max but more possible its 3 or 4 moderns can be elected-seems like a gimmick to reduce classes while creating problems that deserving moderns split votes and less get elected.
Paul I don’t like the grouping and the last vote down either I think the new system only lasts one election the voters will complain to Jim Porter and he’ll have no choice but to go change the system again going back to three seniors being elected and combing coaches and contributors again why didn’t Jim Porter consult the voters I wish he had do you feel the same way I bet they’re upset they weren’t consulted especially Rick Gosselin Clark Judge and Ira Kaufman
This whole thing feels contrived to intentionally have smaller classes. Very disappointing.
As much as I would like to agree and hope that is the case AndyP…could be that many voters (or loud ones) are one reason election process was changed and willing to bet the ones advocating more for getting more deserving seniors elected are becoming the silent minority whose numbers decline each year (for example Kaufman is no longer on the seniors committee, and Peter King is no longer on the 50 member selection committee-although will serve as non-voter on the coaches BRP).
Oh Bill it is not just contrived to have smaller classes but that is the clear intent and one that that Hall even states on their press release
“With the revisions, a new class could be comprised of four to eight individuals, but with the 80% approval threshold, classes are more likely, statistically, to include five or six members.”
So they fully expect that with each voter only allowed to select 5 from among final 7 moderns, result will end up with fewer than the 5 getting the required 80% (due to vote splitting) and like class of 2024, that the full committee may not select the max 3 among seniors, coach and contributors. Seems pretty apparent if not changes, that the total elected over next few years will be less than those elected last 5 years (excluding the 2020 centennial class) and likely fewer than any five year election block back to the early 2000s when smaller classes were more the norm. At class of 2025 with 6 or 7 would not surprise me one bit.
For the very first time the PFHOF has publicly released a preliminary list of senior candidates for class of 2025 (with 183 names, many I don’t even recognize and likely 120+ who will never even be considered as semi-finalists-but still nice to see where the new senior screening committee is starting with as they now work to get 50 to the new senior BRP (at end of Sept) for them to then start their work to 25 and then 12 semifinalists and their eventual nomination of 3 senior finalists for class of 2025
https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2024/09/183-senior-player-nominees-announced-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2025/
Agreed it’s great to see a preliminary list for the seniors my question is what’s the toughest position for the senior countdown
You can thank me for the nominees list being released I emailed the Pro Football Hall of Fame asking them to release it and they told me my message has been received
Thank you andy p
A very shaky list indeed. Look, I am all for noting players with HOF cases, but it looks like “they”–whoever chooses this list–also just threw darts at a list of names.
Gene Brito, one of the best pass rushers of the 1950s, was left off this list. Lou Rymkus, was listed as a defensive lineman. He might have saw some action there but was accoladed as an offensive tackle.
James Harris was listed as a QB, but John Brodie and John Had weren’t listed …
Despite being the second most prolific receiver of the late 30s and 40s behind Don Hutson, Jim Benton did not make the list.
Gary Clark and Wes Chandler also didn’t make this list but Bob Scarpitto, Homer Jones, Pat Studstill, Bobby Walston and John Taylor did?
Matt Blair didn’t make it as a linebacker, and despite Riley Matheson being a five time All-Pro, didn’t make it as an offensive lineman. Neither did Jim Ray Smith, Russ Washington, Bruno Banducci, Leon Gray or Jim Lachey. Kent Hull didn’t make it at center as well.
Both Cookie Gilchrist and Abner Haynes couldn’t get traction for the AFL. Another great pass rusher, Jim Katcavage failed to make the list but Ben Davidson did? No Coy Bacon or Cedrick Hardman either.
Senior Preliminary List (Non-deserving)
QBs
James Harris
Bobby Hebert
Jeff Hostetler
Ron Jaworski
Doug Williams
Running Backs
Hewitt Dixon
Willie Gallimore
Marv Hubbard
Christian Okoye
Mark Van Eeghen
Sammy Winder
Wide Receivers
Homer Jones
Bob Scarpitto
Pat Studstill
John Taylor
Bobby Walston
Offensive Linemen
Wayne Hawkins
Luis Sharpe
Defensive Linemen
Ray Childress
Ben Davidson
Rosey Grier
Lou Rymkus?
Otis Sistrunk
Bubba Smith
Bill Stanfill
Linebackers
Dan Conners
Matt Mullen
Subjective list of course and many are borderline at best. I can easily substitute alot of these players on the list.
Some positions look shaky I do agree esp at qb if we had every name we wanted we’d be looking at a list of over 200 names and cutting that down to 50 would be impossible
btw Brian W. Most of the guys that I’ve considered to be worthy senior nominees are on this list so I’m not complaining at all
Wayne Hawkins was a great guard for the Raiders but light on accolades. Sweeney, Budde and Talamini–not on the list–were more deserving.
Damn, auto correct … Matt Millen
Budde and Sweeney are on the list
A part of me wonders if something like Bill Simmons’ Pyramid idea would help resolve the conflict between HOFers who want a small hall and writers and fans who want a bigger one. I don’t know if it would work as well in football than in the baseball and basketball contexts he came up with it for given the wide spread of prominence of different positions where offensive linemen are much more anonymous than quarterbacks (to say nothing of the practical concern of effectively remaking and rewriting the whole Hall). But it would allow people to choose different “levels” as the “true” Hall in their minds.
That said, I’m wondering which of these is closest to y’all’s views?
*The Hall should have more players than it currently does.
*There are undeserving players in the Hall, and if you could, you’d take some of them out to make room for the unjustly omitted ones, resulting in the total number not being too far away from where it is now.
*The idea of who “deserves” to be in the Hall is determined in part by who’s already in. If it weren’t for some of the questionable inductions of the past, you wouldn’t be campaigning as hard for certain players to be inducted now.
*There are fewer players in the Hall than deserve to be there, but that’s okay because there should be a high bar to get in. I may really want this player to be in the Hall and think they should be in, but I know some people may disagree.
*There are fewer players in the Hall than deserve to be there, but that’s okay because even before this year’s changes, the way the selection process works, with the hard limit on the number of inductees in each category, ensures some players will have to wait their turn for induction.
Sorry, I meant Talamini
Morgan the thing with the smaller hall thing is more of a modern era thing not a senior thing
Paul do you know when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be announced
One name Brian I’ll add that should have been there is pat swilling other than that I’m satisfied
I think the list they released today has a lot of really great players, many of whom wouldn’t be offensive to me if ever elected (and almost everyone on my personal “wish list” was there) but I also agree with Brian that in addition to some notable omissions, there were some inexplicable inclusions. In particular, Dave Krieg, Hewritt Dixon, Mark van Eeghen, Marv Hubbard, Sammy Winder???, Bob Scarpitto, Pat Studstill, Thom Darden, Don Mosebar and Fred Williamson come to mind. There are more.
Am I crazy, or did they go overboard on the Raiders?
Notable omissions for me include Brito, Benton, Pete Retzlaff, Jerry Smith, Riley Matheson, Jim Ray Smith, Matt Blair, Bob Baumhower, John Hadl, John Brodie.
I thought the single-most ridiculous name on the list was Bobby Hebert.
The most infuriating: Jim Plunkett. He has a lot of support on social media and there are clearly sportswriters and I’m guessing some voters who want him inducted. He has no business in the Hall of Fame.
Was happy to see Billy Howton, Del Shofner and Harold Jackson on the list…and especially Lemar Parrish.
I still think the three most deserving nominees would be super seniors – probably Lewellen, Wistert and Dilweg. But sentimentally I’d rather see guys who are still living: Howton, Parrish and Kunz. My prediction? Plunkett, Banks and Sharpe (in other words, I expect them to screw it up).
There is no way they will ever elect plunkett over ken anderson or banks over other deserving linebacker trust me on that, the one name I will agree with you on Jeff is Sterling Sharpe. I think he is one of the three to get a senior spot the other two well I’m not too sure
Jeff good to see you back where have you been
Why is Cecil Isbell listed as a running back when he mainly a quarterback and Lou Rymkus a defensive lineman when he was mainly a offensive lineman
To answer your question I’m not quite sure why both are listed at different positions
For Andy P … Isbell was a single-wing back who threw the ball, only played five seasons though.
Rymkus may have started out playing on defense but was known as a quality offensive tackle. As a coach, won the the first AFL championship with Houston.
Agree with Jeff, Retzlaff, Jerry Smith and Baumhower should have made the list.
I won’t list 50 Robert, because many of them won’t make the HOF, but if I chose for the HOF, these 25 players–off this unfortunate list–would be my choices …
Vern Lewellen
Lavvie Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Al Wistert
Dick Barwegan
Charlie Conerly
Bill Howton
Jimmy Patton
Del Shofner
Art Powell
Jim Tyrer
Dave Grayson
Dick Schafrath
George Andrie
Jake Scott
Lemar Parrish
Harvey Martin
Bob Kuechenberg
Fred Smerlas
OJ Anderson
Roger Craig
Deron Cherry
Joe Jacoby
Sterling Sharpe
Mike Kenn
Of course Tyrer, Andrie, Smerlas, Howton and older super seniors won’t make the HOF but I chose them anyway. Would love to be surprised.
I would vote Dick Anderson in but injuries will keep him out, so hopefully, Jake Scott will one-day get elected. I like Don Doll and voted him for HOVG but he only played six seasons.
I like alot of players like Albert Lewis, Meador, Browner, Hilgenberg, Mecklenburg, Fortunato, Grantham, Greenwood, Niland, Harold Jackson, and many others, but they missed my Top 25.
My Top 25 Players Not In The HOF …
Tyrer
Wistert
Lewellen
Brito
Patton
Grayson
Martin
Benton
D Anderson
Scott
Matheson
Emerson
Shofner
Katcavage
Cherry
Parrish
JR Smith
Conerly
Powell
Sharpe
Smerlas
Meador
Craig
Jacoby
Howton
I’ll be working on my top 50 and post it on the site within the next week or two
As we have discussed in the past with the 150+ names on the modern candidate preliminary list, this initial step of the election process-although necessary one as it needs to start with a list of candidates-is otherwise somewhat of an useless and uninformative list. Due to the fact that anyone (voter, fans, members of the media etc..) and submit a nomination and the Hall staff does not filter out. Thus you end up with dozens of names that have no chance in getting elected EVER.
So yes its neat for us Hall geeks for the first time to see the full list of seniors being considered but for the election process, the next list (end of Sept) with the non-voter screening committee reducing it to 50 names to be considered by the new reformed senior BRP will give us more insight on the pool.
Robert, I have no problem with Swilling listed, a very gifted pass rusher but Don Meredith over a Riley Matheson?
I get what you’re saying Paul, especially about fan write in votes, but you can’t ignore players with multiple All-Pro designations and importance to team championships. Duane Putnam was ignored as well. We all have our favorites, it’s subjective, but a historian could really help the preliminary process.
Moving on, I am sure the process will be what Robert is advocating, players advancing who mostly played from 1975-1995 and we will see if the committee will still fight for super-seniors, but if they feel the voters in January won’t care for them(1-2 candidates)they will continue with the recentism, which could help get them elected by being more known or seen. A coach, or an owner like Kraft, will get plenty of support.
I goofed up on my Top 25 … I meant to put in Dilweg, but got lost trying to shuffle players in a chronological order thinking I already had him listed. Doesn’t matter, he won’t get elected anyway but many of us thought the same way about Chuck Howley.
Yes clear omissions on the senior (and modern) prelimninary lists are to be directly blamed on all 50 voters as over the summer they get to review two versions of each those lists of 150+ before they are finalized and made public-voters need to review carefully and do their research, make sure to add names (which they are allowed to do) of all deserving candidates.
I have given up on all hope for pre 1960 super seniors, and likely now same for those with careers mostly in the 1960s, and new process makes it only harder as with 3 seniors competing against 1 coach and 1 contributor (especially when those likely finalists in next few years will be BillB, Kraft and other high profile HCs and others), so the senior BRP is really going to make 3 very strong finalists with solid resumes-and likely those who played since 1980s as unfortunately those are the players majority of 50 member selection committee will recognize and more likely to support-sorry but that selection committee is getting younger by the year, most cover league since 1990s and few are true historians of the game-making it really hard to have seniors they aren’t aware of to get considered. Its frustrating and sad but current reality of the process, and I don’t think Hall will suddenly reverse its path next year to immediately fix the flawed new process, we are looking at an era of smaller classes- 5 or 6 total now going to be common with 1 senior, at best 2 in some elections.
And following the Hall senior elections closely since early 2000s, and unlike Dilweg, myself and others never through the same way about Chuck Howley (never would get elected), especially since we had some insight from the senior election process before 2023, although not public, that Howley and not Dilweg, was a serious contender and topic of much consideration each election year by the seniors committee.
Looking at the semifinalist list of 31 players from last year for seniors, I not only feel most of the same players will be back, but others may be left off this year, especially if voters continue to go recent.
In Jeopardy?
Powell
Wistert
Conerly
Isbell
Three of four will probably not make it, unless there are ties. It PAINS me to write this. It’s also doubtful that a surprise out of the 50, happens.
Don Van Natta Jr wrote an article for ESPN about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41073940/the-secret-history-robert-kraft-hall-fame-quest
I agree with you, Brian (sadly). I dont think there’s any appetite even for players who played prior to the 70s. If I can allow myself a little bit of optimism…maybe Wistert will stay in the mix after making it pretty far last year. Maybe there’s an appetite to eventually give him his chance, but if so he might be the only one. Of those four, Wistert has the best case. I can see them shelving Powell after getting nixed last year. I have trouble going to the mat for Isbell and Conerly.
Given the changes to the bylaws, I have a feeling only one of these 183 names is making it through this year. I’m struggling with it. I’m OK breaking up contributors and coaches, but I’m not OK with fewer seniors being elected which is what’s going to happen. I feel the hall is for players first, coaches second, contributors a distant third (just my opinion), and I think the hall’s biggest problem is the player backlog. Seems like they’re looking at it and deciding their problem is that there aren’t enough coaches and owners in there and they’re just guaranteeing the backlog gets bigger. Disappointing development.
That documentary on the Patriots might hurt Kraft but I still think he has the support to get in this year. I definitely feel supporters for him thwarted the chances of Parker last January. We will see. If two seniors were to get elected at his expense, it won’t hurt my feelings one bit.
So far, Belichick isn’t exactly helping the numbers on the MNF Manning cast but with so many people watching on phones, computers and bars, restaurants, who really knows the viewing numbers? It would be funny if he gets voted into the Hall before Kraft but I feel he will be coaching next year.
same here brian if we get kraft and two seniors id be ok with that Btw heres my cut down to 50
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Ed Budde
Maxie Baughan
Bill Bergey
Larry Brown (RB)
Joey Browner
Gary Collins
Charlie Conerly
Roger Craig
Nolan Cromwell
John David Crow
Lavern Dilweg
Boyd Dowler
Ox Emerson
Chuck Foreman
Bill Fralic
Roman Gabriel
Larry Grantham
Dave Grayson
L.C.Greenwood
Pat Harder
Billy Howton
Cecil Isbell
Harold Jackson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Harvey Martin
Clay Matthews Jr
Eddie Meador
Stanley Morgan
Tommy Nobis
Bill Osmanski
Jimmy Patton
Lemar Parrish
Art Powell
Dick Schafrath
Sterling Sharpe
Jake Scott
Tom Sestak
Walt Sweeney
Del Shofner
Pat Swilling
Lionel Taylor
Otis Taylor
Everson Walls
Al Wistert
Louis Wright
Good list Robert … maybe some of these players can settle into a queue for the future but I feel the queue set in 2023 will continue with few interruptions after McMichael got elected.
Another thing about these committees and voters; they could simply keep momentum going for a player that just missed on their last year of modern eligibility–Lewis–and try to keep a spot warm for them as first year seniors but we shall see. Is it enough to disrupt the queue?
The list is now 182 Sean Landeta was originally among the nominees but was removed he played until 2005 someone must have been asleep
Robert no Verne Lewellen no Joe Jacoby no Billy White Shoes Johnson no Jim Marshall no Karl Mecklenberg
Heres the thing andy i mainly focused on all decade players and those 5 you listed would be the five that just missed but i wouldnt mind if they got in eventually
Robert oh sorry about that then well Billy White Shoes Johnson was All Decade
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Ed Budde
Maxie Baughan
Bill Bergey
Larry Brown (RB)
Joey Browner
Gary Collins
Charlie Conerly
Roger Craig
Nolan Cromwell
John David Crow
Lavern Dilweg
Boyd Dowler
Ox Emerson
Chuck Foreman
Bill Fralic
Larry Grantham
Dave Grayson
L.C.Greenwood
Pat Harder
Billy Howton
Cecil Isbell
Harold Jackson
Billy “White Shoes Johnson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Harvey Martin
Clay Matthews Jr
Eddie Meador
Stanley Morgan
Tommy Nobis
Bill Osmanski
Jimmy Patton
Lemar Parrish
Art Powell
Dick Schafrath
Sterling Sharpe
Jake Scott
Tom Sestak
Walt Sweeney
Del Shofner
Lionel Taylor
Otis Taylor
Everson Walls
Al Wistert
Louis Wright
Appreciate the info Andy P on white shoes
Turns out on the list i just posted I only had 49 names so I added joe Jacoby for a even 50
Deion’s comments were geared towards modern era players not the seniors, this will be the last time I bring up this particular thought on Deion
BTW the Updated List
1. Dick Anderson
2. Ken Anderson
3. Ed Budde
4. Maxie Baughan
5. Bill Bergey
6. Larry Brown (RB)
7. Joey Browner
8. Gary Collins
9. Charlie Conerly
10. Roger Craig
11. Nolan Cromwell
12. John David Crow
13. Lavern Dilweg
14. Boyd Dowler
15. Ox Emerson
16. Chuck Foreman
17. Bill Fralic
18. Larry Grantham
19. Dave Grayson
20. L.C.Greenwood
21. Pat Harder
22. Billy Howton
23. Cecil Isbell
24. Harold Jackson
25. Joe Jacoby
26. Billy “White Shoes Johnson
27. Mike Kenn
28. Bob Kuechenberg
29. George Kunz
30. Albert Lewis
31. Harvey Martin
32. Clay Matthews Jr
33. Eddie Meador
34. Stanley Morgan
35. Tommy Nobis
36. Bill Osmanski
37. Jimmy Patton
38. Lemar Parrish
39. Art Powell
40. Dick Schafrath
41. Sterling Sharpe
42. Jake Scott
43. Tom Sestak
44. Walt Sweeney
45. Del Shofner
46. Lionel Taylor
47. Otis Taylor
48. Everson Walls
49. Al Wistert
50. Louis Wright
If we ever get back to assured 2 or 3 seniors elected a year (seems very likely) I have decided to keep my seniors list at top 15 which likely realistically represents about a decade of elections or 1 or at best 2 in some years-and of course doesn’t include other moderns who will fall into seniors pool-and going to be more of them if 3 or 4 moderns are more common elections. I simply no longer see value in a list of seniors longer in number than 15
1. WR Sterling Sharpe (F2023-F6,F2024)
2. RB Roger Craig (F2024-F6)
3. LB Maxie Baughan(F2023,F2024)
4. CB/S Eddie Meador (F2023,F2024-F6)
5. QB Ken Anderson (F2023,F2024-F6)
6. G Bob Kuechenberg (F2023-F6)
7. CB Albert Lewis (F2024)
8. LB Tommy Nobis (F2023)
9. OT Al Wistert (F2024)***
10. OT Joe Jacoby (F2024)
11. F Otis Taylor (F2024)
12. F Lavvie Dilweg ***
13. G Ox Emerson ***
14. CB Everson Walls (F2023)
15. DB Jimmy Patton
Well one thing about all these changes is that we really will not know how it plays out this year..making predictions very challenging..and our annual prediction contest suddenly very interesting
and no rush with your prediction yet, as has been usual timing, I will call for and collect submissions in early January once 20 finalists are announced and before selection committee meets
RIP
Joe Schmidt
A great MLB and winning coach for Detroit
Joe Schmidt might be the most underrated player (in the eyes of people today) in pro football history. For me, he sneaks past Barry as the greatest Lion of all time. Terrible that the modern fan has no idea who he was.
and was oldest living player in PFHOF (age 92), the honor now goes to Raymond Berry (91), with Marv Levy the oldest current PFHOFer (99)
Paul did you see my comments about when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be released what do you think about the article about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
Here’s the thing paul I agree with your final 15 100% most of the guys in your final 15 are in mine
Should I read the comments I’ve gotten so far as “some modern era inductees don’t deserve to be in, but even without them, there are senior candidates that should be in”? I actually don’t have a problem with there being fewer inductees from before the 50s or 60s when the game was a lot less popular and hadn’t rounded into its final form yet. Right now ~93 of the 323 players in the Hall started their careers before 1955, which seems about right to me – half as many in the first four decades of the NFL than in the succeeding decades, so about 2/7ths. (This attitude may reflect the influence of Simmons, who would prefer to almost completely ignore the history of the NBA before Bill Russell came into the league, on my thinking.)
I read that piece about Kraft. I think he deserves to be in the Hall, but considering contributors have no guidelines for when they can be inducted and often get inducted while still active owners, I don’t particularly care when it happens. What pissed me off, though, was that apparently the number one mark against Kraft was that some voters think he knew more about Spygate than has come out. Let’s leave aside the lack of evidence for this; these people served on the combined coach/contributor committee, so how many of them would have voted to induct Bill Belichick on the first ballot under the old rules? I’m going to guess most if not all of them. So how can these people hold Spygate against Kraft but not Belichick, the one who actually did the spying? Belichick might not be inducted when he becomes eligible, if only because the reduction to a one-year wait was made without consulting voters and they’ll probably be reticent to induct Belichick when he still wants to coach again, but if he gets in before Kraft I don’t want to hear that it’s because of Spygate.
Paul did you see my comments about when the coach and contributor nominees and modern era nominees will be released
….my understanding is that we will not see those preliminary lists; late Sept or Oct, we will see their semifinalist lists which will consist of coach (12) and contributors (20), those BRP do not have the new screening process or committees that modern and senior players now have.
what do you think about the article about Robert Kraft’s Hall of Fame quest
none of it surprises me, doubt the lobbying is unique to just him nor would it impact his chances for election or sour his case in the eyes of the voters, all of those efforts overlapped with class of 2023 election cycle when I understand it took a extra tiebreaker between Coryell and Kraft. Under the new system contributor has a direct path to finalist-clearly he is the top contender..guessing once presented and discussed at the January selection meeting he has a real good chance of among 3 from 5 that can be elected.
(from a source-NOT a current voter-who has seen the recently approved new election rules)
next steps
-by end of Sept-release of modern preliminary list (150+??)….modern election timeline is same as in years past;
-during Oct-release of list of screened 50 seniors
-sept or Oct-lists of 12 coach and 20 contributor semi-finalist lists (those preliminary lists not made public, no screening committee, those two BRP panel vote to create their semi-finalists
– -each of the three BRP to reduce to their 9 semi-finalists by votes (Oct) and then each BRP meet to select their finalists (Nov/Dec)… (all these names to be made public, dates TBD)
note that schedule of press release of names at each stage is decided by the Hall (and not set or known in advance), plus its first time for all these new processes and steps, so very possible some dates end up later….BUT
all finalists will be announced last week of Dec/first week Jan….with meeting of 50 member selection committee in-person, mid Jan
I didn’t see Tommy Nobis on your top 25 list Brian. I have to think he’ll get in soon with the momentum growing for his election. This is a FB post from Joe Carmack that says it all.
Nobis joined the Falcons for their inaugural season in 1966. That season, he won the league’s NFL Rookie of the Year, was voted to the Pro Bowland amassed 294 combined tackles which still stands today as the team’s all-time single-season record, and is unofficially the most tackles ever credited to one player, in a season, in NFL history. In eleven professional seasons he led the Falcons in tackles nine times, went to five Pro Bowls (one in 1972 after two knee surgeries), was named All-Pro twice and was chosen for the NFL’s “All-Decade Team” for the 1960s. Miami Dolphins great, running back Larry Csonka commented, “I’d rather play against Dick Butkus than Nobis,”.
* First-team All-Pro (1967)
* Second-team All-Pro (1968)
* 5× Pro Bowl (1966–1968, 1970, 1972)
* NFL Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
* Atlanta Falcons Ring of Honor
Nobis was a great player but overrated for me as well. He simply got hurt alot but showed toughness and kept hanging on. I just dont feel he should have been All-Decade. Howley should have gotten that designation but Nobis got a lot of publicity off a great rookie season. Is he worthy of the HOF? Absolutely but I still feel others were just as good if not better. He has to wait because he was on a bad team but he was a tackling machine just like undersized Jessie Tuggle.
Good call Morgan … the spygate and sideline taping, filming sessions should have no bearing on Kraft’s case for the HOF. Every team had done these things but the Patriots–ordered by Belichick–were just more aggressive about it and got caught . We will see if this is the year Kraft gets elected. In a weird way, this ESPN article seems like a further endorsement but we shall see.
As for the HOF, I am more bigger Hall myself because less than 3% of all players throughout the history of the NFL have gotten voted in. The bar has been set lower however, but once the players are voted in–despite campaigns, social media endorsements and what-not–thats it.
Thanks for the updated information Paul.
Once again, the Dolphins get dominated by the Bills. I still hope Tua will play again but leading with his head after a run wasnt too smart. Yes, he was diagnosed with a concussion but I also hope it was more of a neck sprain but a scary situation nonetheless. Everyone says he should retire but QBs from the past had alot of concussions as well and recovered. I think he will be back, but we will see if the Dolphins let him. Alot of money riding on this, though his health and future have to come first.
Just for the record tony p. Nobis is in my final 25 and final 12
To answer your question Brian either baughan or howley should have been all 60s
Paul I don’t think you know this but a handwritten letter from Bill Walsh to Don Coryell helped him become the contributor finalist
https://fullpresscoverage.com/2022/08/25/what-did-bill-walsh-have-to-do-with-coryells-hall-nomination-plenty/
Paul didn’t you forget the modern era preliminary list won’t be 150 plus anymore it’s now 50
thanks for the reminder about the modern list being down to 50 Andy,, also im thinking that the senior committee will focus more on the offensive side after going mainly defensive the previous two years
Robert we’ll just see
That’s incorrect Andy – just like there was a 150+ senior preliminary list (which a screening committee will now reduce to 50 to provide to voters) we will see same for moderns – what I posted came directly from the revised PFHOF election bylaws.
This new voting process could be beneficial to modern candidates considered first ballot choices but some great players will have to wait. If Kuechly were to wait, he will be dealing with Brees, Fitz and Witten next year. How long will it take for Gore, Thomas or Yanda? Will Eli or Rivers have to wait awhile? Maybe five can still get elected for 2025-2026 but it will get intriguing. Voters cant just be team homers, they have to really try to pick the most deserving players or a backlog will get crazy like Justin said …
If more classes consist of just 4 (or occasionally ally 3) per year, then yes we will begin see more frequent and long backlogs of modern candidates, but apparently Hall doesn’t care
In order, predict which brothers enter the HOF 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. from these great brother combinations:
Eli and Peyton Manning
Shannon and Sterling Sharpe
TJ and JJ Watt
Travis and Jason Kelce
Bruce and Clay Matthews T
Tiki and Ronde Barber.
Maybe you don’t think all will make it? Care to rank the combinations?
Paul do you mean modern era classes???
Yes
gotcha thanks for the clarification
Sterling will join his brother this year … the next duo will be the Kelce brothers.
I have sterling as one of my 3 senior nominees Brian the other two I’m not sure
My only thought is about the 2 other seniors is that their BRP better bring two very solid contenders as they likely facing BillB and Kraft for two slots for election
For example, Art Powell would not have been senior finalist in this new election system as there simply would have been no way he gets elected (even with direct path to election when all 3 seniors were discussed and voted on individually and just needed yes/no, the 50 selectors rejected his case), so any player with a sniff of weakness to his case-and Powell had several-is going to get in over coach and contributor. So senior BRP need to bring their best of best cases forward, players since 1980s with all pro selections, all decade team, SBs..and perhaps because he came so close as modern candidate recently and selectors are aware of his case- perhaps Albert Lewis. If Senior BRP takes a flyer on someone who jumps from not semi-finalist in 2023/2024 its a risky move….heck they should bring forward remaining post 1980 era finalists from 2023/2024 if intent of the Senior BRP is to give those players the best chances of getting any seniors elected.
If serious about their efforts, the Senior BRP should be considering three finalists from a list of: Sharpe,Craig,KAnderson,JJacoby,LHayes,BobK,ALewis,EWalls,OAnderson,CMatthews,Ellard,Nobis (do I think all these are the top deserving senior PFHOFers, nope not all of them…do I think they have been chances at election, yes..
Do you mean if belichick stays out if coaching for 2025 and is eligible for the 2026 election
Apparently since BillB isn’t coaching in 2024 he’s eligible for class of 2025, look at this way as Eli is eligible after 5 year waiting period that includes 2024 season. Unless Hall clarifies (and to date they have chosen not to), he’s eligible and we will see in next month or so when Coach semifinalists are announced.
From The AP: Bill Belichick could be eligible to be selected for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2026 instead of 2029 following significant changes made to the selection process.
The Hall of Fame announced the new rules that were approved by the Board of Directors on Friday. They go into effect immediately, including reducing the waiting period for coaches to be considered from five years out of the game to one year.
That would make six-time Super Bowl-winning head coach Belichick eligible to be selected for the 2026 class after he parted ways with the New England Patriots after last season.
From Pro Football Talk :
Belichick won’t be eligible for the Class of 2025 because the selection process has already begun
Neither of those sources have confirmed with PFHOF, and Hall hasn’t made clarification while actual voters are suggesting he is. selection of the coaches candidates started in summer and he’s not coaching in 2024 which would be his one year waiting period.
From Clark Judge in recent Talk of Hall posted story about next coaches in PFHOF “ The new changes mean that unless Belichick returns to coaching this season – and he’s currently out of the NFL – he becomes eligible for the Class of 2025. ”
Two of my three senior nominees paul I’m pretty sure on that being Ken Anderson and Sterling Sharpe the third one is the one baffling me to no end
I wish they hadn’t changed the voting process I’d wish they kept the original voting process instead I like forming screening committees and having historians and non voting members on the senior coach and contributor committees and having coaches and contributors separate again and the waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year I’d wish they added those instead of changing the voting process I’m worried this will only increase the senior backlog
Andy the only way i could see that happening would be if we would only electoral say 3 modern a year
Robert see what happening
its clear that backlog of seniors will increase with likely only 1 or 2 per year (compared to chances for 3 last two years) and the having voters only vote for 5 of 7 modern finalists and those electing needing 80% from the 50 member selection committee will result in elections with 3 or 4 moderns, hence we will start to see classes of 7 or even 6 (compared to recent 8 or 9) very soon. All of which means more backlogs.
Here’s a hum-dinger of a trivia question. Who are the two HOF QB’s who went to the University of Texas to play for the Longhorns but never played a down for them?
just checked in with Clark Judge and yes the current ongoing work by the coaches BRP has included BillB as a nominee on their preliminary list for class of 2025 as he’s not currently coaching in 2024 which would be his one year waiting period.
And coaches prelim list is NOT made public or screened by a separate committee, coaches BRP comes up with their own list of candidates, first public announcement we will see about coaches process (late this month or in October) are the 12 semi-finalists.
Ok appreciate the clarification on belichick Paul wasn’t too sure
No problem as it’s confusing especially since Hall hasn’t officially confirmed
gotcha and paul might have given a clue as to who my three senior nominees would be Ken Anderson Roger Craig Sterling Sharpe
mine would be the same Robert, and if the Seniors BRP is smart about a strategy to best position their finalists against a coach and a contributor-these would be three very solid picks…but alas given what we have seen last two elections (and yea I know BRP is now 9 with two new non-media/non-voters members) still can’t help shake the notion that they will still include a wildcard-who we can’t predict-in their final 3 even though that finalist would be doomed against the likes of BillB/MikeH or Kraft.
agreed paul the wildcard could be well shall we say the most interesting of the three i will agree there is there a possible scenario in which belichick could get rejected the first time btw appreciate the feedback
Why the Pro Football Hall of Fame wasn’t founded until 1963 I have no idea
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert no being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
Honestly andy p I had that same exact thought like you did why didn’t the Hall start earlier
I think I have a theory on why it took so long for a Pro Football Hall Of Fame.
Yes, an exciting sport but it took awhile to be sold on the public who still favored college football and major league baseball. Many pro teams struggled for a long time and then the NFL had to worry about gambling scandals, WWII and rival leagues in Canada and the AAFC. By the early 50s, teams finally embraced the T Formation, which turned the QB into the most important player on the field, as well as the coach on the field and the league started to gain more momentum. Television was still new and the league was actually threatened by it because they felt it would take away from game attendance, so they adopted a black-out rule.
When the Colts beat the Giants for the 1958 NFL Championship, in the first overtime game, the drama was tailor made for television. Bert Bell felt the sport truly arrived, and he was right. Fans embraced the sport more than ever, which is why a new league with new millionaire owners, decided to challenge the NFL in 1960.
By 1963, the NFL owners, finally making record profits–helped by lucrative television deals–decided to start and build a Hall Of Fame. It was to honor great players and coaches with the support of the community of Canton, Ohio but the owners also wanted future recognition for themselves, which is why so many got elected in the first eight years. Yes, the fans, media, historians and families of these great players and coaches, have this HOF, that we continue to honor, visit and write about, to this day … but dont think team owners and future team owners, wont want to join this Hall for themselves as well.
I really have no problem with the first team owners being in the HOF, which should include Ralph Hay and maybe someone who has been forgotten, after all, they built the sport as well as the Hall Of Fame itself. But I simply dont believe that EVERY team owner should be inducted. It really should be about the players and coaches who truly built this sport into the juggernaut it has become.
Being a cynical older fan however, and seeing where the league is going … Gosh, I hope I am wrong … I think the League will do away with tackle football –for flag–by 2040.
The modern preliminary list is out with 167 names this year …
yep..next is the new screening committee getting to list of 50(+ties), by mid Oct, full selection committee then starts their work (same steps as in recent past)..semifinalist moderns to 25 (+ties) by end of Nov…15 finalists by late Dec….in-person meeting in mid Jan, all 15 presented and debated followed by voting rounds to 10 and then 7*new, final step is voters each can vote for max 5….up to 5 can be elected if they get 80%…but increasingly likely due to vote splits at that stage we could only see 3 or 4 moderns elected into the class
“Why the Pro Football Hall of Fame wasn’t founded until 1963 I have no idea ”
I am part of effort by a group where we restarted the PFHOF elections as if Hall opened in 1940s, to date we have re-elected classes up to 1965.
Will try and find link to share on the results
I saw them off notinthehalloffame … good project that I support as well.
My semifinalists
Eli Manning
Antonio Gates
Willie Anderson
Marshal Yanda
Jared Allen
Luke Kechly
Terrell Suggs
Eric Allen
Jahri Evans
Torry Holt
Adam Vinatieri
Darren Woodson
Rodney Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Hines Ward
Steve Smith Sr
Fred Taylor
Tiki Barber
Steve Wisniewski
John Abraham
Kevin Williams
James Harrison
Shaun Alexander
Ricky Watters
Nick Mangold
Surprised Anquon Boldin didn’t make the ballot. Wonder why?
Boldin is listed …
Paul why did they add reducing the preliminary nominees from 100 plus to 50 then reducing it to 25 semifinalists
The PFHOF website only listed 17 of the 21 WRs omitting Anquan Boldin, Donald Driver, Antonio Freeman and Irving Fryar. That’s the list Brad probably saw and thought Boldin didn’t make the cut.
im mainly focused on senior nominees for the near future can anyone blame me
Sorry. Yes correct. I was referring to the website. I would take off Shaun Alexander, who I think deserves to be inducted one day. Boldin is for sure getting the semi nod.
Justin Smith was also left off of the HOF’s list but does appear on the list posted by Clark Judge, and that’s harder to figure out how it happened than someone misclicking and deleting all the wideouts alphabetically before Torry Holt.
On the Hall of Fame not having been founded earlier, I was going to point out that professional baseball dates back to the 1870s yet the baseball Hall of Fame wasn’t founded until 1936 and didn’t open until 1939, but the baseball Hall kind of invented the concept of a Hall of Fame so that’s not necessarily determinative, and the basketball and hockey Halls of Fame were founded at relatively early points in their respective sports’ development, with the first classes being named in 1959 and 1945 respectively. By that standard maybe a 1940s establishment date (or even earlier!) isn’t so unreasonable. On the other hand, most other sports didn’t start building Halls of Fame until the 1970s or later, and there still isn’t one for worldwide (as opposed to country- or continent-specific) soccer; even the College Football Hall of Fame wasn’t founded until 1951 despite college football’s popularity in those days.
“Paul why did they add reducing the preliminary nominees from 100 plus to 50 then reducing it to 25 semifinalists”
Honesty I think it was to create a role for non-writers who not are current voters and others including PFHOFers, former coaches and GMs to have a voice in the selection of the class as those are the individuals who will be on the screening committees
i could be wrong paul but hasnt the coaches eligiblity rule been inconsistent
Morgan – good spot on Justin Smith. The PFHOF website is not just clumsy looking but sloppy too when it comes to accuracy.
you are correct Robert, Don Shula was elected after only one year out of coaching, situation with Bill Parcells in 2003 when he was a finalist only to return to coaching right before the annual election meeting had PFHOF move it to 5 yr waiting period
Appreciate the info paul wasn’t too sure was that the year in which parcels was almost elected but he got back into coaching
Paul why did they add during the final vote for election cutting the finalists from 15 to 10 to 7 to 5
7 to 5 is an attempt to reduce the chances of max 5 modern elected as when you give the 50 voters the requirement to select only 5 out of 7 and the final 5 still needs 80% the math associated with votes split among the 7 increases chances that only 3 or 4 are elected – Hall wants smaller classes and this is one way to get them
Paul we’ll just see what happens
I think Jim Porter is trying to make the Pro Football Hall of Fame the way it was when he was a kid he’s trying to make it nostalgic again according to the media guide he has loved the Pro Football Hall of Fame as long as he has know his ABCs as a boy growing up in Canton he looked forward to sitting on a lawn chair and watching a new class of Hall of Famers be enshrined far more than he did to opening gifts on Christmas morning
I love Jim Porter and I love some of these changes but not all
He may have those fond memories but reality is that the Hall (and associated Village) is a multi million business needing millions in annual revenues to operate, it’s never going back to smaller more intimate ceremonies. Even Porter realizes this as Hall is even more corporate revenue expanding organization than it was before he became President. And shockingly after just two years he’s been influenced by some voters and current PFHOFer to flip from larger more inclusive Hall to a smaller more exclusive Hall -being many deserving will wait much longer and more will die before elections. As to a system where math indicates increasing possibility of modern classes less than 5, we just need to refer to the statement in the Hall press release about changes to election process that refers to that possibility
From PFHOF press release “With the revisions, a new class could be comprised of four to eight individuals, but with the 80% approval threshold, classes are more likely, statistically, to include five or six members.“
i think the main reason for the changes and this is just me was that mainly the voters could decide on say 3 or 4 modern era guys and were forced to pick 5 i might be in the minority but im in favor of the changes for a whole host of reasons which id rather not get into on here
Robert I’d like to hear them
I think they made the changes because they want Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick to get elected first so they both can knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski in 2027 and Tom Brady in 2028 and introduce them at NFL Honors
That’s a bit of a stretch andy based on 4 guys,like I said previously I’m not getting into those reasons right now
RIP the great Mercury Morris one half of the first RB duo to rush for 1,000 each. Without him the 1972 Dolphins wouldn’t have a Perfect Season.
Porter has bought into the idea from some voters and some PFHOFers that’s it’s become too easy to get into the Hall – it’s why the changes were made – it’s that simple and evident. I don’t think anyone really cares who’s knocking on whose door years from now. All four would elected one day soon so Hall already knows NE fans will be in canton soon to spend their $$$$$$$$
Robert bit of a stretch what do you mean and sorry I asked you to explain why you were in favor of the changes
Paul too easy to get into the Pro Football Hall of Fame what do you mean
ever since the centennial classes, and then with a class of 9 elected in 2023, there have been vocal detractors of the big Hall…sure Deion has been perhaps the loudest and most well known of those, but he’s far from the only one…many have questioned several of the enshrined in recent years. Clark Judge has acknowledged that the changes are an intent of the Hall to raise the bar and make it harder to get elected and that classes of 6 or 7 are going to more common.
As to the changes I like the role of a non-voter screening committee, adding non-voters to the BRPs, separation of coaches and contributors…what I hate is the gimmick of having 7 modern finalists and asking each of the 50 voters to select only 5 on their final ballots, where 80% required is going to make it harder to elect 5 moderns (and just push those not elected onto the following years ballot), and really hate having seniors, coaches and contributors compete against one another. Instead of electing a total of 4+ of those, I would be satisfied with 2 seniors per year, and rotate between 1 coach 1 contributor every other year, gets max class of 5+2+1 = 8…heck even reduce modern max to 4 is one prefers max class of 7…but creating a system that will result in classes of 6 only pushes more deserving candidates to the following year ballots, denies deserving candidates, some to old age or even death before elected
Paul me too I don’t like it too i wish they hadn’t changed the voting process I’d wish they kept the original voting process instead I like forming screening committees and having historians and non voting members on the senior coach and contributor committees and having coaches and contributors separate again and the waiting period for coaches being reduced to one year I’d wish they added those instead of changing the voting process I’m worried this will only increase the senior backlog
You know the old saying if it ain’t broke don’t fix it
agreed as it will most certainty increase the senior backlog significantly..and not just the seniors already in there..but very likely that over time with fewer moderns elected-and resulting more moderns waiting longer for election..its only going to push more of them into seniors pool as moderns run out of eligibility..we can all hope that in next few years Hall sees results and realizes the fault with their messing of the process and makes some reasonable adjustments, but until we see that…..yes the process, outcomes and the Hall will be tarnished in my view by these decisions
Paul I hope so too what adjustments would you like to see
Andy one change I really like is them separating the coaches and contributors instead of lumping them into 1 category
As long as we still get 1-2 seniors per year depending who the coach and contributor nominees are you won’t hear much complaining from me
For the record I still stand by my thinking that they will mainly stick to a 1970-95 time frame in terms of seniors
Andy as to what adjustments I would like to see-look up thread for a post I made yesterday at 829am
Paul let’s wait and see how it goes before we rush to those conclusions
Guys it’s been fun to talk on here for over a decade plus but now it’s time for me to say goodbye and get off this site for mainly my health and sanity
no intent to rush to conclusions, but statements from the Hall and a few voters certainly suggest that class of 2025 will look much different in terms of size of class compared to what we have seen lately-certainly will be interesting to see how this process works and the results next Feb-but I doubt very much that most fans and us Hall followers are going to be very happy with outcome.
Too bad to see you leave Robert..and why one’s health and sanity is tied to this site or any other social media interaction is odd as its not important stuff-should just be fun and engaging debates, conversations and sharing ideas and information
but I get the need to take breaks on occasion, perhaps you might come back one day in future
I’m not entirely leaving zone blitz I’m just waiting on the hall to list the cutdowns in both the modern era and senior categories, once those cutdowns are released each time ill be posting on the site , posting on here daily without a updated list and such was getting monotonous for me.
Robert I understand see you then
Sorry used my email
Robert I understand see you then
Paul I don’t see a thread where is it
Haha … The Greatest will be back after the 50 moderns are announced. Will be interesting to see the 25 semifinalists. Some big names could be left off …
for AndyP
As to the changes I like the role of a non-voter screening committee, adding non-voters to the BRPs, separation of coaches and contributors…what I hate is the gimmick of having 7 modern finalists and asking each of the 50 voters to select only 5 on their final ballots, where 80% required is going to make it harder to elect 5 moderns (and just push those not elected onto the following years ballot), and really hate having seniors, coaches and contributors compete against one another.
Instead of electing a total of 4+ of those, I would be satisfied with 2 seniors per year, and rotate between 1 coach 1 contributor every other year, gets max class of 5+2+1 = 8…heck even reduce modern max to 4 is one prefers max class of 7…but creating a system that will result in classes of 6 only pushes more deserving candidates to the following year ballots, denies deserving candidates, some to old age or even death before elected
Paul what about the thread you mentioned
I just reposted it – at this point I don’t know what you are asking about
Paul sorry if I asked I thought you meant a post here on ZoneBlitz I’ve now realized what you meant I should have looked carefully I didn’t mean to upset you
I guess the modern cutdown will happen tonight or tomorrow?
Season notes — Chiefs and Vikings are still unbeaten, Seahawks could join them tonight. Bengals finally win but the Jags and Rams still cant get a win. Will the Titans get off the schnied?
Hard for the Chiefs to three-peat with injuries to Rice, Brown and Pacheco but we will see. Its unacceptable in my view for Lawrence to get paid that crazy amount of money and lose nine games in a row … the talent is there but in fairness, they had wins against the Dolphins and Texans but the Jags defense relented. Nix for Denver wins a game with 60 yrds passing on 25 attempts. Dan Marino must be rolling his eyes
Sorry, but King Henry will make the HOF. Too many observers and voters will remember his power running, vicious stiffarms and speed for a man his size. His 87 yrd TD run was the longest in Ravens history. He should get to 100 regular season TDs next week.
The Steelers lost to an old nemesis in Joe Flacco for Indy.
Too bad the Browns still dont have him …
the revised Hall election bylaws indicate the screening committee members are to submit their ballots (50 choices) by Sept 30th – no idea if that timeline has worked or needed to be extended, but it does not list when those list of 50 senior candidates and 50 modern candidates are released by Hall, could be this week or in near future. So we have no idea when they are made public, and of course Hall never provides schedule of press releases or gives advance notice…they will just appear one day….. (of note we will not see any preliminary list of coach and contributor names-those two respective BRP will only release their respective semi-finalists-some time in October or November before they meet to select their 2025 finalists)
Appreciate the information about the selection process paul in terms of the 50 seniors i could see a majority of players who played between 1970-95 with hopefully some pre 1970’s players
will be interesting to see how both screening committees-as new to the process (and each committee having non-voters as members: PFHOFers, former GMs, coaches etc.. and we don’ currently know who they are) approach the task and what the 50 lists look like….
exactly will be very very interesting to see how those lists turn out w
Robert good to see you back I thought you left for awhile
I was just waiting for certain things to happen and we’ll here I am
Going forward andy I’ll be mainly posting thoughts on seniors instead of moderns
Robert what certain things were you waiting for to happen how come you’ll be mainly posting thoughts on seniors instead of moderns will you still post about moderns and do you still agree with me that next year could be a clean up year and we won’t see any first ballot Hall of Famers
1. Waiting for the cutdowns to happen so I can post here more frequently
2. Posting on here without an updated list is kind of tedious
3. I’m more focused on seniors because I’d like to see a few of them get in before they pass
4. This year most likely is a clean up year in terms of inductees considering next year you have Brees Fitzgerald and Witten eligible
given the new step of 7 modern finalists and voters to select their 5-will be real interesting to see how many get elected 5? 4? only 3? due to split votes and which final 7 players are impacted by split votes? 1st ballot guys-are there voters wanting fewer 1st ballot, higher standard, does that hurt Luke ? repeat finalists that have yet to get enough support-will that continue and some still don’t get in this time?
And all of these unknowns plus only 3 slots for 5 seniors coach contributor is going to make predictions much harder and far more uncertainty leading up until the official announcement on NFL Honors show the Thursday before SB
going to be very interesting……
That’s why paul I’m not making any predictions just waiting to see how it goes
The screening committee’s list of seniors is out: https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2024/10/60-seniors-advance-in-voting-process-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2025/ Massive tie for the last spot makes me wonder if the committee is big enough.
quick rough count reveals 39/60 played since 1970, 29/60 had at least one season in 1980s-not surprising but actually more 1960 and a few pre’60 made this cutdown then I thought would..and of course going from 182 to 50+ties you are going to see some familiar names drop off especially AFL and pre 1970 candidates who have supporters among those interested in pro football history and PFHOF elections. The next list from new 9 member senior BRP (7 voters + 2 non-voters) of 23 semi-finalists to be released late Oct/early Nov should give us better indication of candidates of interest (then we get 9 finalists, with that BRP selecting 3 senior finalists – names released late December)
25(+ties) semi-finalists is next step for Senior BRP
Got 34/60 Right did not expect that I’ll admit. 3 of my super seniors Emerson Isbell and Wistert are still in the running which way will they go with the seniors like paul said I have no idea
It is only the first year, but the new procedure didn’t seem to make much difference. All of the 29 candidates not elected from last year’s semifinalists list are in the final 60. To my eyes, the new procedure only added another “date on the calendar,” “a new list for candidates and families to anticipate,” and “a new list for us to demand.” I’m not sure what I expected, but I thought there would be greater variety from last year (i.e., some of the less distinguished semifinalists would have been replaced with others). Of course, that can still happen when (if?) the list of 25 is released. My biggest omissions were Sweeney, Sestak, Lewellen, and Dilweg. Nice to see O’Neal, Parrish, and Cherry, three guys that the committee just forgot to address.
Damn, just noticed no Karl Mecklenburg. That is another bummer. Position-less player probably hurt by the need to categorize players by position group.
Sheesh, of the 25 I was hoping to make it, 11 got eliminated including Dilweg, Lewellen, Schafrath, Scott, Grayson, Patton, Shofner, Barwegan, Howton, Andrie and Smerlas.
At least Dick Anderson and Ralph Neely advanced, though they wont get elected.
Just some thoughts
1. I got 34/60 right would have been 34/50 if not for the ties
2. Three of my Super Seniors Made it Through Emerson Isbell Wistert
3. Very Very Shocked that Jim Tyrer made it through the next round for a whole host of reasons
I’ll post my final 30 in the next day or two
My bad … Schafrath advanced. The queue is already set however. It wont change much from last year. Ties are what will keep some players on the list of 25-30.
Can Emerson, Isbell, Conerly, Wistert and Powell move forward?
Only Billy Johnson or Tasker for special teams. Can they advance after the election of Hester?
I have all four advancing to the final 25-30 Brian in fact heres my final 30 the last two names that it came down to for number 30 were Jim Tyrer and Joe Fortunato
Dick Anderson
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Bill Bergey
Larry Brown (RB)
Ed Budde
Deron Cherry
Charlie Conerly
Roger Craig
Boyd Dowler
Ox Emerson
Chuck Foreman
Larry Grantham
L.C. Greenwood
Lester Hayes
Cecil Isbell
Joe Jacoby
Billy “White Shoes” Johnson
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Albert Lewis
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Lemar Parrish
Art Powell
Sterling Sharpe
Jim Tyrer
Everson Walls
Al Wistert
We will see … the queue is set. We are stuck with candidates like Isbell, Banks, Morgan and others … not excited till the final 9 …
one other thing i might add is the reason that neely and schafrath might not make it to the next round is look who they are up against Budde Jacoby Kuechenberg Kunz Tyrer Wistert
There is no way that Banks will make the final group considering the competiton at linebacker Baughan Bergey Fortunato Lee Roy Jordan Matthews Jr Nobis
I doubt Jordan, Bergey or Fortunato make the 25-30 Robert.
Baughan, Nobis, Banks and Matthews are ahead of them in the queue. The only real shakeup since 2023 has been McMichael and Powell. Another break-through would be great but we will see …
Why post a final 30 when next round is 25?
Just wanted to give my self a little buffer paul just in case of ties you never know
ahhhh thats a sound smart strategy-I will do same, here are my predictions (25+ties)…
QUARTERBACKS (1): Ken Anderson
RUNNING BACKS (5): Ottis Anderson, Larry Brown, Roger Craig, Chuck Foreman, Cecil Isbell
WIDE RECEIVERS/TIGHT ENDS (5): Mark Clayton, Henry Ellard, Art Powell, Sterling Sharpe, Otis Taylor.
OFFENSIVE LINEMEN (6): Ox Emerson, Chris Hinton, Joe Jacoby, Bob Kuechenberg, George Kunz, Al Wistert.
DEFENSIVE LINEMEN (4): L.C. Greenwood, Jim Marshall, Harvey Martin, Leslie O’Neal
LINEBACKERS (4): Carl Banks, Maxie Baughan, Clay Matthews Jr., Tommy Nobis
DEFENSIVE BACKS (4): Lester Hayes, Albert Lewis, Eddie Meador, Everson Walls.
SPECIAL TEAMS (1): Steve Tasker.
I’m enjoying he regular updates this year with lists for prelims and top 50+. It keeps the news and discussion ticking along at a good pace,
Paul, your list is almost identical to mine except I doubt Emerson hangs in. I think Morgan will be there instead of Powell and Ellard (I can see Powell taking a back seat after last year) and I think Plunkett makes the cut (because there has to be something inexplicable).
That’s my prediction. My hope, based on who’s left, is:
Ken Anderson
Larry Brown
Roger Craig
Chuck Foreman
Tank Younger
White Shoes
Harold Jackson
Sterling Sharpe
Ox Emerson
Chris Hinton
Joe Jacoby
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Jim Tyrer
Al Wistert
LC Greenwood
Maxie Baughan
Larry Grantham
Clay Matthews
Tommy Nobis
Lester Hayes
Albert Lewis
Eddie Meador
Lemar Parrish
Im in agreement with jeff in terms of emerson hanging in there its going to be tough for him as a super senior to be in the running considering the number of modern offensive linemen also up for consideration, im also thinking that jeff might be on to something in terms of powell taking a back seat to another wr in the queue could that receiver be either Jackson or Morgan or perhaps someone like say mark clayton
Question for the chat if Jim Tyrer somehow makes the next cut how will you react
I’m sure I missed some players but here are a few shorter careers that deserve consideration IMO. Dolphin players come to mind because they hit the injury wall after 5 really good years.
Jake Scott
Dick Anderson
Larry Brown
Bill Stanfill
Mark Gastineau
Rick Upchurch
William Andrews
Bob Baumhower
Jack Tatum
Billy Sims
Shaun Alexander
Keith Jackson
Goose Gonsoulin
Dante Hall
Mercury Morris
Looking at players with decent stats very few have played less than 10 years. Players are playing for a long time now if they are good. They stay in better shape with diet I suppose and injuries are dealt with better. It’s a little harder to judge HOF worthiness with so many good numbers at the skill positions.
What do we think about Brandon Marshall or Demaryius Thomas HOF chances? I guess Antonio Brown is another Terrell Owens for the HOF? I wonder if he’ll have his own ceremony? LOL
I really like the human joystick Dante Hall with his 6 punt return TD’s and 6 kick off return TD’s to follow Hester.
In terms of Dolphins players Tony P. I completely agree on the following players Anderson Baumhower Scott Stanfill non dolphin player that I agree on is Gastineau
Like Ray Guy making the PFHOF (2014) as a punter and some suggesting it will open doors for others-it hasn’t as no one has come close since, I suspect voters will be happy they elected one KR/PR (the GOAT) and I suspect very slim prospects for any more as voters will simply say “hey look we elected one”
voters are not going to elect 10+ WRs from post 2000 era so only way Brandon Marshall or Demaryius Thomas ever get in the PFHOF is to buy a ticket.
Thanks for the comments. Could be right about the greatest returner. Hall was really special if they ever look again. Maybe they will think it opens the door too much.
I think Brandon Marshall 1/6 with four 10 plus TD seasons could find his way in down the road. He was one of the better WR’s with size at 6’5″. Good at fighting for the ball.
We have great WRs from 1960s 1970s 1980s still not in PFHOF, Marshall has no chance, never viewed as top 3 WR in league during his era..very soon the 2000s-2020 WRs will be elected, likely 8+ of them and he will be buried in a pool of better players including more recent WRs. He was a very good WR with a few great seasons but lacks the season/career stats and accomplishments to ever be considered.
Off the top of my head Paul here are some of those senior receivers you were talking about
Mark Clayton
Gary Collins
Henry Ellard
Charlie Hennigan
Billy Howton
Harold Jackson
Stanley Morgan
Art Powell
Pete Retzlaff
Del Shofner
Jerry Smith
Lionel Taylor
We will see if these first year players(due to ties) from last year stay in the queue …
Conerly?
Brown
Wistert?
Banks
Powell?
Ellard
Tasker?
Ottis Anderson
Albert Lewis
Could a Foreman, Emerson or someone new replace any these players? The semifinalist list of 20 players from 2023 should remain in place but we will see …
I’ll answer it this way Brian
Albert Lewis- Stays in the queue
Al Wistert- Stays in the queue
Art Powell- could be replaced by either Harold Jackson , , ,Stanley Morgan, or even Mark Clayton
Charlie Conerly- Stays but could be replaced by either Gabriel or Kemp
Henry Ellard- should stay in the queue
Larry Brown : Stays in
OX Emerson: I don’t think there will be three super seniors on the final 25 my guess is the two Super seniors that advance will be Isbell and Wistert
Ottis Anderson- could be replaced by Chuck Foreman
Steve Tasker- Stays in the queue
for first time we have a seniors selection committee (aka now called BRP) with 2 non-voters as members-out of 9 total-and those non-voters get a vote in selecting the senior finalists, not so sure it has much influence at 25 and 9 stage (as done via mail-in voters) but once BRB meets next month to select its 3 from the 9 finalists will those new voices/voters at the table make a difference.
also this new language in the PFHOF election bylaw are “interesting” additions…
“Off the field or away from the game contributions and/or situations (positive or negative) are not to be considered, and Selectors are prohibited from including them in presentations or discussion. If a Selector violates the above rule, he/she would be warned, and if repeated would be prohibited from further comments during the meeting and a possible future removal from the Selection Committee.”
“Refrain from any pre-meeting collusion that attempts to secure votes for a candidate or candidates in a quid pro quo manner.”
Question for Paul could that language in the voting help a candidate for example Jim Tyrer
It wont help Tyrer Robert, but it could possibly give Powell and Parker another chance? I still believe pre-meeting collusion will/could happen Paul, especially involving Robert Kraft but we will see …
Yeah, I dont believe three super-seniors advance either but hope Wistert can keep momentum going. Clayton and Morgan are already in the queue Robert but maybe Ellard or Jackson could replace Powell?
Other than Dilweg, who got replaced by Wistert, could any other semifinalist from 2023 miss the cut for 2025?
Paul where did you find this out from
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again the only chance Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert have of getting into the Pro Football Hall of Fame is a special election for pre 60s candidates with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
I hope this new rule doesn’t affect Robert Kraft i would love to see him with a Gold Jacket when I go to Canton in 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
Appreciate the clarification on Tyrer Brian wasn’t completely sure in his case
To answer your question I’m thinking there’s a possibility that Powell could be replaced by a guy who you and I have campaigned for Harold Jackson
I’m not sure they will go back to Powell even with the changes this soon
we should see 50 list of moderns very soon, also senior BRP working quickly to vote on their 25+ties senior semi-finalist ballot (don’t have update on senior or contributors process-expect announcement of their 9 finalists each, next month)..but will be a furry of press releases between now and end of November when finalist ballot of 20 (15 moderns+3 seniors+1coach+1contributor) will need to have those respective ballots submitted to Hall, announcement of those 20 in late December. So at least here we should have plenty to discuss with multiple announcements in coming weeks.
I have copy of the revised PFHOF election bylaws (where that statement was lifted from)
Very possible new senior process provides opportunity for Tyrer-but drop from 60+ to 25+ties to 9 finalists will be tough for all the seniors. Especially pre 1970 candidates and also for AFL players-again its sad and unfortunately but its the reality of how 50 member selection committee members look at seniors.
I would be shocked (and it would be stupid move by senior BRP) to bring Powell back as one of 9 finalists when they already know case does not have support of the full committee-that very short sighted and disappointing but its the reality. Same goes for coaches committee and Parker. Remember 3 seniors+1coach+1contributor will need to compete for max 3 slots-those committees need to bring strong fresh convincing cases to the full committee, not rehash debates just held during the previous election meeting. I feel very bad for what happened to Parker and Powell as I am sure members of those committees are..but can’t see them looking to revisit that debate and hope for difficult outcome. Perhaps one day they both return but one year later seems to raw and early to do so.
And you are right the Hall can’t control or oversee, conversations among committee members and voters over the months as the various stages of ballots and voting occurs, could very well be coordinated efforts to advance certain candidates..but Hall is also clearly addressing the issues that apparently arose at the 50 person selection committee last January where off the field issues were actually raised and discussed, that destroyed the chances for Buddy Parker. Hall also has oversight and runs the meetings of each BRP when they present and discuss their 9 finalists (mid Nov) and can certainly control what is said and done in those meetings to select their respective finalists.
I think the new rules and process creates an even clearer path for Kraft to be elected in class of 2025, we already know he has been among the top 3 coach/contributor candidates in recent years so clearly he will be one of the 9 finalists to be presented and considered by the contributor BRP-and very good chance he is their finalist.
In terms of powell paul i dont have him making it to the final 9 for the reasons you listed it would be wayyyy too soon in terms of him getting another chance, my final 9 right now is a work in progress and is in a wait and see approach
my personal timeline on seniors is a rather complicated one and would take me quite a while to explain on here
not sure if others here are aware of Substack app/website, but voter Frank Cooney, plus Mike Tanier (often comments on PFHOF) have content found there (you can access summaries with limited ability to comment via free access)….Cooney is currently pushing out a series of detailed articles with some in depth details on 2024 voting (…for example, that many of the 50 voters were no even aware of the case for Powell as they came into that election meeting not even reading the materials sent to them by the Hall who prepared a package for all finalists) and also the 2025 process..could be of interest to many regulars here..
Appreciate the Info paul did not know that BTW my final 9 will mainly consist of players who played from the 70s to the 90s
Here’s what Peter King said in FMIA in response to a question from Jack Silverstein about why he didn’t vote for Art Powell
Good question. I should have explained. I think a receiver from the early AFL days, with some significant questions about the level of talent on teams throughout the league, needs to have a longer career than eight years (as a receiver). His stats were impressive in those eight seasons (478 catches, 8,015 yards, 81 TDs). Twice an AFL first-team all-pro in eight seasons … His case didn’t scream Hall of Fame to me.
Paul that explains why Art Powell wasn’t elected I bet that’s why Buddy Parker also wasn’t elected
I might be in the minority but im in agree with peter king on his reasoning 100% 8 years seems way way too short for me and probably some other voters thought the same if he would have done it over a decade then i think he would have been voted in
Andy P. and others to Answer your question as to why i differ in terms of seniors than you guys is im of the logic that the time for the pre 1960s has passed and to try to catch up at this point would be fruitless in terms of seniors id like to see get in i set a time frame 1970-2000 but i also make exceptions for seniors who started their careers in the early 60s and ended their careers by 1979
The only evidence one needs to look at in regards how the 50 member selection committee (voters) and perhaps even some members of the senior committee view pre 1960 candidates is look at the senior finalists since the centennial class (of special note are the pre 1960s considered for that class that remain unelected). I would love to support and place a hand full among my top deserving senior but why bother or advocate for when the voters simply don’t care about them, are not willing to listen to cases made as finalists and seems like unwilling to even review their nomination materials in advance of the election meeting or simply take the finalists recommended by the seniors committee (who have spent months and series of ballots to go from dozens of candidates to a few finalists)
Voters not knowing or even reading about certain nominated players? Doesnt surprise me at all. With these guys, it has nothing to do with the history of the game. Its all about their beat assignments–and homerism. Until more voters are bonafide football historians, it will never change.
Like I said earlier there seems to be a divide between the seniors I want and the seniors you guys want. You guys want to a extent 1960s and earlier and I want 1970s onward
but thats ok its healthy for us to have two different timelines in terms of seniors we want
I have four pre 1960 in my top ten seniors – the rest are post 1970
Who are you pre 1960s seniors paul I’m guessing Conerly
Emerson Isbell Wistert?
Dilweg Emerson Wistert Lewellen
the only pre 1950s senior in my final 9 is wistert and thats bascially it
The Super Bowl is coming back to Atlanta in 2028 I’ll be attending NFL Honors to see Tom Brady announced as a first ballot Hall of Famer along with JJ Watt and the rest of the Class of 2028
I don’t think it’ll be long before Jim Porter and the Pro Football Hall of Fame comes to their senses and realizes what are we doing it’s it’s obvious the new process is keeping way too many seniors out and the voters and public have decided they like the old process better so let’s go back to it
I think one reason they made the change is because they don’t want anymore big induction ceremonies
It’s likely one minor factor but from what I can gather the biggest push was from loud voters and PFHOFers that too many were getting elected and large classes watering down the Hall. Although I agree Hall will likely revise the new process in near future but we won’t be getting 3 seniors a year or 8/9 member classes and no large special senior classes any time soon – could be many years if at all.
Paul Curious question in terms of seniors which positions do you see the toughest cutdowns in the cutdown from 60-25, im thinking offensive linemen and Linebackers
Robert: might be the DBs. I’d be comfortable with all 8 being elected eventually and the list doesn’t even include Louis Wright…
Agreed 100% Justin so many deserving db’s from the bunch the one from that group I hope advances soon is deron cherry
I would agree-when I did my cutdown to 50 those were the toughest groups-suspect same for voters getting to 25+ties
BTW no idea of the specific date-but next step in revised election process timeline is public release of names of 50 moderns from their screening committee-we could get that announcement any day now..
The list of the 25 contributor nominees
K.S. “Bud” Adams, Roone Arledge, Chris Berman, Howard Cosell, Otho Davis, John Facenda, Mike Giddings, Ralph Hay, Frank “Bucko” Kilroy, Don Klosterman, Eddie Kotal, Robert Kraft, Virginia McCaskey, Rich McKay, John McVay, Art Modell, Lee Remmel, Eddie Robinson, Art Rooney Jr., Jerry Seeman, Seymour Siwoff, Amy Trask, Jim Tunney, Doug Williams and John Wooten
Yep, Doug Williams the QB but no Jack Vainisi, Bernie Parrish, Tony Razzano or Dick Haley.
Kraft will get elected but at least Ralph Hay is still hanging on.
Sorry Andy P, no Murchison this time but another Rooney advances …
I still hope Byron Donzis, makes this list. His invention helped thousands of players avoid injuries.
when only 9 people are submitting ballots with 20 names (from an initial list of 47), the result can be ties (20-25 in this case) as only one vote can get a candidate on this list–result is names that are weird and odd, have no chance of ever elected. I recall in 2023 or 2024 election process, when one voter saw the than list of 25+ coach/contributors list he felt than that perhaps only 1/2 of that list were deserving of the honor.
Agreed some names on that list are rather baffling I will admit
BTW tiny piece of advice for BW complaining all the time is not healthy at all
I’m going to give my thoughts about the contributors
I continue to be baffled by the lack of respect for Clint Murchison the Cowboys founder and original owner
I can’t believe Virginia Halas McCaskey made the contributors semi finalists again over Clint Murchison I mean what has she done that’s Hall of Fame worthy other than two NFC championships and a Super Bowl championship with one of the greatest teams with one of the greatest defenses ever I think it was a longevity thing she turned 100 last January Clint Murchison did more than she did he was the founder and original owner of the Dallas Cowboys built Texas Stadium hired Tom Landry Tex Schramm and Gil Brandt a risk taker game changer 20 consecutive winning seasons 15 seasons with 10 or more wins 17 playoff appearances 5 Super Bowl appearances and two Super Bowl Championships he deserves to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame more than her
I found it ironic that Howard Cosell is among the finalists considering he’s never won the Pete Rozelle Award
This is a list with some weird names who have no chance of getting elected
Like before I’m going with Robert Kraft
Some of these names are shall we say baffling : Arledge Berman Cosell Facenda
BTW Brian Disregard my last post to you I didn’t see it till after I saw the list my apologies
Eddie Robinson on this list is … how shall I say it nicely …. ridiculous
just like several other names on that list paul mainly the media names
What’s wrong with Eddie Robinson
honestly andy i have zero idea
Robert what do you mean I’m confused
Eddie Robinson was a great college coach and great person, and no disrespect is intended to him, but what does any of that relate to being a contributor to pro football that warrants a Gold Jacket..sure he sent many players to the NFL but so did many other coaches, should Nick Saban be elected to PFHOF has he has over 40+ first rd NFL draft picks.
Frankly the mess that this list is actually harms the process and could very well led to Hall further reducing contributors (after electors to select Kraft and few others) which would then hurt the others on this list who truly are deserving-several whom have been semi-finalists repeatedly . Slots 20-25 represent ties-which when only 9 people are submitting semifinalist ballots of 20 names, means it likely only takes 1 vote to get in as a tie. That’s a screwed up process.
I recall a comment made by a voter during the 2023 or 2024 election cycle when they saw the list of contributor semifinalists (at that time combined with coaches) that of the 25+ at that time the voter felt perhaps 1/2 deserved consideration. I am not necessarily referring to (or opposed) media types. Plus in this new system where 1 contributor finalist needs to fight it out with 1 coach and 3 seniors, it would be idiotic for the contributors BRP to select most of these folks as their finalist only to see it laughed out of the room by the full 50 member selection committee when considering what we hope the other BRPs due-bring their best finalists to the room in January.
BTW here are the semi finalists for coaches: Bill Arnsparger, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Alex Gibbs, Mike Holmgren, Chuck Knox, Richie Petitbon, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer, George Seifert, Mike Shanahan and Clark Shaughnessy
No Belichick despite being eligible. Regardless of what the bylaws say, voters still don’t want to induct coaches who might still return to coaching.
Why is this list 12 names when yesterday’s contributor list was 20 plus ties?
Simple Reason Morgan the panel most likely believes belichick will be coaching again next year which pushes his election back
There is still confusion–even on the PFRA site–about the eligibility of Belichick. Ken Crippen feels he is not eligible until 2026 due to the season going until after Feb, but the HOF site feels he is eligible now? Which is it, or did the committee get it wrong?
No Parker as well, but three assistants and Jeff Fisher?
I’m going to give my thoughts about the coaches
I’m shocked Bill Belichick is not on the list I’m confused when he’s eligible is it this year or next year
I’m also shocked Pete Carroll is not on the list too
If Buddy Parker a pre 60s coach wasn’t elected then imagine what would happen if Clark Shaughnessy another pre 60s coach was the finalist he wouldn’t be elected because he coached a long time ago and a lot of voters don’t know who he is and the selection committee as Rick Gosselin said is getting younger not older
I’m surprised Jeff Fisher made the list
I’m surprised there’s three assistant coaches on the list I thought it was only for head coaches
I wonder if there’s assistant coaches on the list why not Monte Kiffin too
I’m going with Mike Holmgren
Ken Crippen is right Brian , Belichick is not eligible until 2026 due to the season ending in february ,
The new rules set different numbers of semifinalists for coaches and contributors, and yep seem Hall clarified that Bill and Pete had to use 2025 as their one year waiting period (as will all future retired coaches) – that timing was of much confusion in media and even by voters in recent months but now everyone is clear on eligibility
Gotcha thanks for the clarification Paul
One additional thought i have is that could the voters not elect a coach until belichick is eligible just some food for thought
Perhaps they don’t elect a coach but I don’t think it would be an intended strategy to not elect one until BillB is eligible plus let’s remember there remains chance he returns to coaching in 2025
meaning it could be 3+more years before BillB is done coaching for good and eligible, in meantime under current rules the coaches BRP will nominate one finalist each year..do we think the full 50 member selection committee would refuse to elect any coach over those years and wait for Bill? Would not be willing to consider cases for MikeH, MikeS, TomC???? Its almost like saying voters will not elect Brees or BenR until Brady is elected first (which at least in the case of Brees seems very unlikely as clearly he is most likely first ballot in 2026). And I suspect same for BenR in 2027-but stronger bet on first ballot would be Brees
Appreciate the feedback paul agreed with all you said 100% most likely the coaches nominated for the coach spot in the next three years will be Coughlin Holmgren Shanahan in terms of Rothlisberger a 2029 induction is not out of the question
Robert we’ll just see you know what they say life is full of surprises
one other thing ill add and this is something Paul alluded to a while back or so the senior nominating comm must come up with three great seniors to go up against the contributor nominee (Most likley Kraft) and the coaching nominee (either Holmgren , Coughlin Shanahan)
https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2024/10/31-seniors-remain-in-consideration-for-hall%E2%80%99s-class-of-2025-after-second-reduction-vote/
Yep, I figured between 25-30 and we get 31. Emerson, Grantham, Younger, Foreman and Martin make the semi list this year. I have to look for some left off, like Clayton and Ellard.
Clayton, Ellard, Brown, Hinton and Tasker cant stay in the queue … Billy Johnson survived, which surprised me and Wistert, Isbell, Conerly, Powell and now Emerson survive amongst players from 50s going back.
I got 24/31 right bw did not expect that to be honest
Same number of “semi-finalists” as last year. List very similar.
Removed: (1) Gradishar (elected); (2) McMichael (elected); (3) Larry Brown; (4) Mark Clayton; (5) Henry Ellard; (6) Chris Hinton; and (7) Steve Tasker.
Ellard seems like the biggest miss to me. Sneaky great player. Played in “dead ball” era with a particularly “dead ball” team. Enjoyed watching his last few years in Washington.
Added: (1) Ox Emerson; (2) Chuck Foreman; (3) Larry Grantham; (4) Harvey Martin; (5) Jim Plunkett; (6) Jim Tyrer; and (7) Tank Younger.
While I was expecting greater variety, I think this year’s list compares favorably with last year’s list. Brown/Foreman are very similar to me. Tyler has to have one of the most (if not the most) impressive resumes, and without his personal tragedies would have been elected a long time ago. I’ve come around on Martin thanks to Turney. Long time supporter of Grantham. Emerson is an obvious upgrade, but I don’t know enough about Younger to have an opinion either way (that said PFR had him on their 1950’s all-decade team). That leaves Plunkett as the only addition that I consider a net negative.
These would be my cut to 9: Craig, Jacoby, Kuechenberg, Lewis, Meador, Powell, Sharpe, Tyrer, and Wistert.
im not even going to attempt a final 9 prediction because it could go so many different ways and every time i try to come up with a final 9 my head starts to hurt
Good job Justin, I didnt list Tyrer or Plunkett because I dont feel they will stay in the queue very long but we will see?
I guess they felt Eli Manning’s case needed a comparable argument but Raiders Nation has to be pleased, somewhat.
I still cant see why Banks keeps staying in the queue? Could be great for a season or two but doesnt have the consistency or statistics to compare to a Wilbur Marshall, Matt Blair, Seth Joyner or even Isaiah Robertson. Younger is a super-senior, who was known for playing great as a linebacker as much as a running back, though he is listed at RB. Towler his teammate, I felt was a better runner, and was comparable to Motley in his prime. Shorter career though.
Disappointed Brown and Ellard couldnt stay in the queue.
My cutdown to nine players would be …
Wistert
Emerson
Conerly
Powell
Grantham
Meador
Tyrer
Martin
Sharpe
Prediction
Anderson
Craig
Isbell
Baughan
Nobis
Lewis
Sharpe
Meador
Lewis
Prediction … Jacoby. Listed Lewis twice …
one thing i will add is that if tyrer makes the final 9 i would be shocked and very very surprised
I am not sure who it will be but we likely need to prepare for 1 or even 2 shocking names in the final 9 seniors-just feels that way to me.
My cutdown to nine players would be …
Wistert
Emerson
Craig
K Anderson
Meador
Tyrer
Sharpe
Baughan
Jacoby
Prediction
Anderson
Craig
Baughan
Lewis
Sharpe
Meador
Lewis
Jacoby
Wistert
With ties 25-31 (7 total) and only 9 people voting, when we wonder why some players appear in that list the math shows that with all those ties it could be just one voter selecting a player that puts them into list among the ties. But the real test of wider support for a senior candidate comes with 9 voters selecting 9 finalists where rules do not allow for a tie-hence one voter for a candidate will not be enough to get them on that list.
That’s the main reason paul I’m not doing a final 9 due to what you said could happen with many surprises, honestly we may have 1 super senior or zero super seniors
The modern cutdown list to 50 came out. Not too many surprises so far but have to look at it closer.
Disappointed Nalen didnt make the cut. Neither did Sproles, who is hurt with Hester being elected.
Brian, I recall White Shoes’ case as a senior finalist happened the same year after Hester was first a finalist…would you say a senior like White Shoes’ case might have been helped by Hester’s rise in support?
I’ll reveal 5 of my 9 Baughan Jacoby Kuechenberg Meador Nobis
No huge surprises. Nice to see Emerson advance. Disappointed that Harold Jackson and especially Lemar Parrish can’t get more traction. Tyrer was a hall of fame player but he’s obviously complicated and I’m a little surprised he’s gotten this far. I like seeing Younger in there even though he’s borderline at best as a player and probably wont go farther – really significant figure in my opinion. I think I’d rather have Larry Brown over Foreman.
Tough choice but if I were picking, my final nine would might be Emerson, Wistert, Jacoby, Kenn, White Shoes, Kunz, Meador, Baughan and Kooch.
I’ll stick with my original prediction for the final three: Plunkett, Banks and Sharpe. One out of three gets elected along with five moderns plus Robert Kraft and whoever the coach is (Shanahan?). The other two get in eventually. Expectations very low for this whole thing.
Jeff there is no way in the world that plunkett will be in the final 9 considering since 1972 they have only elected two senior quarterbacks Benny Friedman (2005) Ken Stabler (2016) i doubt they will even put banks in the final 9 due to the fact you still have deserving defensive players in the pool such as Baughan Lewis Matthews Nobis
I hope you’re right, Robert, but I think some of these voters are a different breed and don’t think about this the way you and I and others on this forum might. I mean, I would sure hope they wouldn’t put Plunkett and Banks in there above so many other better players…but there’s plenty of homerism, not a lot of context…and it does seem like social media campaigns from fans have some impact. I’ve seen a lot of pro-Plunkett takes in the past few years, and now here he is in the final 25, leap-frogging much better players. Same with Banks. I hope I’m wrong but I wont be surprised if both end up in the hall.
Plunkett in my opinion has no business being on this list or anywhere near it, and he would really lower the bar. If a QB makes it, I hope it’s Anderson.
Anyway…there are a few others on the list I have some trouble with but I can get behind most of them and some of them are great. I just hope one of the more deserving guys makes it. I’d love to see someone like George Kunz break through while he’s still alive.
Jeff Heres my final 9 what do you think
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Roger Craig
Joe Jacoby
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Sterling Sharpe
John – White Shoes has never been a finalist
Hypothetical question : if Jim Tyrer made the final 9 how would you guys react
Re: Tyrer, I would be supportive. His family forgave. We know so much more about CTE. Could be a great opportunity to raise awareness of all forms of mental illness.
couldnt agree more justin it could be a great great opportunity for mental illness awarness
Thats the thing John … If Billy Johnson advances to the Final 9, maybe Hester’s election could help him but we will have to see how far he gets? I dont think these voters would make it happen because like Jack Silverstein said, Hester was the ceiling for them. Sproles not only has 19,000 yards all-purpose, but was good enough to replace LaDainian Tomlinson and Reggie Bush on rosters and cant even make a Top 50 semifinalist list for moderns.
Brian i have him just missing the final 9 it was really really close it came down to him and George Kunz i went with Kunz because like Jack said Hester was the ceiling for these voters and will be that way for a while .
In terms of super seniors we might get between 1 and 2 Super Seniors or we could end up with none which is the outcome i have predicted and known for quite some time
The 50 Modern-Era Players who remain eligible for election with the Class of 2025 are:
(*-indicates Finalist for the Class of 2024. Underline indicates first year of eligibility.)
QUARTERBACKS (2): Eli Manning, Steve McNair
RUNNING BACKS (6): Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Eddie George, Marshawn Lynch, Fred Taylor*, Ricky Watters
WIDE RECEIVERS (6): Anquan Boldin, Torry Holt*, Jimmy Smith, Steve Smith Sr., Hines Ward, Reggie Wayne*
TIGHT ENDS (2): Ben Coates, Antonio Gates*
OFFENSIVE LINEMEN (12): Willie Anderson* (T), Lomas Brown (T), Ruben Brown (G), Jahri Evans* (G), Olin Kreutz (C), Logan Mankins (G), Jeff Saturday (C), Joe Staley (T), Richmond Webb (T), Erik Williams (T), Steve Wisniewski (G), Marshal Yanda (G)
DEFENSIVE LINEMEN (8): John Abraham (DE also LB), Jared Allen* (DE), Robert Mathis (DE), Haloti Ngata (DT), Simeon Rice (DE), Neil Smith (DE), Vince Wilfork (DT/NT), Kevin Williams (DT)
LINEBACKERS (5): Cornelius Bennett, London Fletcher, James Harrison, Luke Kuechly, Terrell Suggs
DEFENSIVE BACKS (6): Eric Allen* (CB), Kam Chancellor (S), Rodney Harrison* (S), Earl Thomas (S), Troy Vincent (CB), Darren Woodson* (S)
SPECIAL TEAMS (3): Gary Anderson (K), Brian Mitchell (KR/PR also RB), Adam Vinatieri (K)
If any kicker was deserving of first ballot its Vinny, but he may have to wait till 2028 – 2029?
Robert, I like your final 9 just fine! I’d be pleased with that. I think the ones I have trouble getting behind are Banks, Isbell (great player, but career length is an issue), Otis Taylor and especially Plunkett, who I dont think should be anywhere near this close. I also struggle with Jim Marshall – some good arguments for, but maybe better arguments against. I think I lean no on him and that’s kind of tough – I’ve known about him since I was a very young fan and have plenty of admiration for him. I suppose I’m a bit of a coin flip on Morgan, Conerly, Martin, and Walls.
On Tyrer, I guess if you’re strictly by the book, nothing should matter except for what he did on the field, and he was definitely a hall of fame player. But that’s always been a little unrealistic (Darren Sharper was a hall of fame caliber player too, but no one wants any part of that). I suppose the wishes of the family count for something and they seem to have leaned toward forgiveness (I read somewhere that some info came to light that strongly suggests he had CTE). I think I would be OK with it but it’s probably something the NFL wants to avoid.
On Billy White Shoes: special teams players are kinda difficult to assess, at least for me. I dont think there should be a ton of them in the hall, but I think there should be some (arguably more than four). I thought Hester’s election might help Billy advance. I think it’s the records he held at the end of his career and maybe more importantly the honors that do it for me: three pro bowls/all-pros (not bad for a returner), not one but two all-decade teams (one first team, and it’s the second decade), 75th anniversary all-time team (only one not in the hall), 100th anniversary all time team. Plus comeback player of the year – maybe the only specialist to win that award? That’s pretty great stuff. I also think he has the “fame” part down – really popular and iconic figure. I’ve always liked him and his HOF case has grown on me over the years.
Jeff : appreciate the feedback a whole lot ,and your 100% right based on numbers Otis Taylor should be nowhere this close to getting into the hall based on the Lack of big time numbers worthy for the hall and I would rather see wrestling like Morgan or Sharpe advance to the final of
than Taylor.
In terms of Marshall he’s one I’ve gone back and forth on over the years but based on too many reasons I’d rather not get Into on here I’d like see him get the honor before he passes on
If there are any senior qbs that will get in this year it will not be plunkett it will most likely be Ken Anderson
One other thing I’ll add Jeff is that players like Isbell wistert Emerson there time to be elected has come and gone that’s why I didn’t put any of them in my final 9
Robert not unless there’s a special election for pre 60s candidates
If the Pro Football Hall of Fame were to have a special election for pre 60s candidates the obvious first I’d elect would be Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert the next three would be Ward Cuff George Christensen and Joe Kopcha Chris Willis says in his book the NFL’s 60 Minute Men: All Time Greats of the Two Way Player Era, 1920-1945 all seven of them belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame I recommend reading I’ll put a link to it below he also says Jack McBride Red Dunn Ed Danowski Charley Brock Glenn Presnell and Father Lumpkin have resumes worthy of discussion Lou Rymkus would be another Charlie Conerly Joe Fortunato Billy Howton and Marshall Goldberg would be a few others I don’t know how many I would elect I would elect all of them if I could
https://www.amazon.com/NFLs-60-Minute-Men-All-Time-1920-1945/dp/1476691320
thats what i was implying as the only way for those pre 60’s guys to get in would be like you said andy a special election
and unfortunately given the recent changes to the election process, which Hall has clearly stated will increase chances of classes smaller than the 8 max, including fewer seniors each election….the intent is to be more selective and elect smaller # of PFHOFers and as a result at least for the foreseeable future there will be no small class of super seniors
which is why for those reasons you mentioned paul i didnt go for any super seniors just players who played mainly in the 70s and 80s in my final nine
Paul why do you think they waited until 1963 to found the Pro Football Hall of Fame
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame Buddy Parker too
Not sure, seemed like until locals in Canton took up the cause, there had not been any move to create one. Perhaps because it was not really until 1958 NFL Championship game did pro football gain a foothold as a national sport in the US, for decades college football was more popular, and baseball by far the most important in US
i think the toughest position in the next cutdown for seniors in my op is offensive linemen so many deserving but only a couple of spots could we get a couple of surprises from that group
upcoming announcements remaining (through to end of Nov):
BRB finalists (9 each): Seniors, Coaches, Contributors
modern 25+ties
December
BRB finalists: Seniors (3), Coaches (1), Contributors(1)
modern 15 finalists
Thank you as always Paul for the Information I’ll be back on the site for each announcement
no problem-see you then!! and yea that ‘s four more separate announcements in November alone!
My prediction for seniors coaches and contributors
Seniors
Ken Anderson
Maxie Baughan
Roger Craig
Joe Jacoby
Bob Kuechenberg
Jim Marshall
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Sterling Sharpe
Coaches
Tom Coughlin
Jeff Fisher
Mike Holmgren
Chuck Knox
Dan Reeves
Marty Schottenheimer
George Seifert
Mike Shanahan
Clark Shaugnessy
Contributors
Bud Adams
Roone Arledge
Mike Giddings
Ralph Hay
Bucko Kilroy
Eddie Kotal
Robert Kraft
Seymour Siwoff
John Wooten
My prediction for the Modern-Era semifinalists
Eric Allen
Jared Allen
Willie Anderson
Tiki Barber
Anquan Boldin
Jahri Evans
London Fletcher
Antonio Gates
Eddie George
James Harrison
Rodney Harrison
Torry Holt
Luke Kuechly
Eli Manning
Robert Mathis
Terrell Suggs
Steve Smith Sr
Adam Vinateri
Hines Ward
Reggie Wayne
Richmond Webb
Kevin Williams
Steve Wiesnewski
Darren Woodson
Marshal Yanda
apparently ballots for all four of these next steps have been sent out to the respective groups of voters/BRP members.. look for announcements of results throughout November (Hall has no set advance schedule for release of those announcements-at least not publicly known one…they will simply arrive when they arrive)
Probably one per week.
9 contributor semi-finalists announced today:
K.S. “Bud” Adams,Ralph Hay,Frank “Bucko” Kilroy,Robert Kraft,Art Modell,Art Rooney Jr.,Seymour Siwoff, Doug Williams, John Wooten.
The Hall’s nine-member contributor committee will meet virtually on Nov. 12 and choose one finalist ( to be considered for one of five election slots when the PFHOF selection committees meets in person in early Jan. to elect the class of 2025
– Kraft has been among last few considered as finalist last four elections making him the clear favorite for class of 2025 contributor finalist
My thoughts about the contributor semi finalists
I think Bud Adams belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame but how is that he makes the list and Clint Murchison can’t even make the list
I don’t want to see Art Modell in the Pro Football Hall of Fame because Cleveland would riot if he got in
I’m surprised Doug Williams made the list
As usual I’m going with Robert Kraft
Paul how did you find out the date they’ll be meeting
Paul just read the Talk of Fame article which had the date in it sorry if I asked
Andy for Reasons that are already known to the public and the public has known for quite sometime i doubt seriously they would ever nominate Bud Adams or Art Modell for a whole host of reasons like i said at the beginning, one name that really baffles me and i imagine the rest of the group is Doug Williams as a contributor nominee i would have rather seen someone else over him to begin with, i would rather have seen Jack Vainisi or Lloyd Wells over him
Most Likely we get Kraft as the contributor nominee or we could get a surprise nominee such as Rooney Jr Ralph Hay or even Bucko Kilroy
After Kraft and Hayes I really don’t have strong feelings about any of the others – any would fine, none that I would bang the table for (and yea even BRP member Clarke Judge stated today that Williams is odd choice)
Paul do you mean Ralph Hay
Robert whole host of reasons what do you mean I hope that doesn’t happen with Clint Murchison if and when he comes up
opps..yea topo there…obviously I meant Ralph Hay. As to chances for Murchison it seems for that BRP he falls behind other owners, perhaps one day in future he makes their 25 semi-finalist list but right now seems like Kraft, Adams, Modell are the moderns higher in their queue. Plus after Kraft I wonder whether the BRP and full selection committee may be interested in moving on to non-owners, including several of the GMs/scouts already in that queue.
BRP list includes 4 of 9 return from the 12 coach-contributor semifinalists from 2023 and 5 from 2024 semi-finalists-these four were on both lists-Kilroy,Kraft,Rooney Jr,Wooten…plus Hay,Kilroy,Siwoff,Adams were 2020 finalists (those are only years we have lists of those considered for election as contributor)…queue there?
and released today:
The nine Semifinalists in the Coach category this year are: Bill Arnsparger, Tom Coughlin, Mike Holmgren, Chuck Knox, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer, George Seifert, Mike Shanahan and Clark Shaughnessy.
Paul that’s why they need to read the book Hole in the Roof so they can learn about Clint Murchison and why he belongs in the Pro Football Hall of Fame I emailed Rick Gosselin to tell all members of the selection committee and contributor committee to read Hole in the Roof and he told me the committee all got copies of the book I have it and it’s great you should read it too as a Cowboys fan I’ll put a link to it below
https://www.amazon.com/Hole-Roof-Murchison-Swaim-Paup-sponsored/dp/1648430961
You’ll be pleased to hear this it’s because of my mission to get Clint Murchison in the Pro Football Hall of Fame that I have developed a passion for the Dallas Cowboys
You might be right on a contributors queue, Paul … wouldnt it be great if Kilroy got voted in over Kraft this year?
Be like having another senior nominee …
Could Williams be the darkhorse candidate?
I’d rather see another senior go in over a coach like Brian said but if I had to pick a coach I’ll go Holmgren
Robert me too
When I see public comments (twice in last few days) from Clark Judge, voter and member of contributors BRP, question how Williams is even eligible it tells me his case is likely dead on arrival
agreed 100% Paul why he was nominated as a contributor is something i still havent figured out to be honest would have rather seen Jack Vainisi , Lloyd Wells or Ed Kotal make the final 9 or as in vainisi’s case i would have rather seen him nominated over Williams
Robert me too I still can’t figure it out either
Andy P : Murchison would have been a much better choice on the contributor list than doug williams
I got 8/9 of the coaches I missed on Bill Arnsparger I had Jeff Fisher
I read those from TOFTWO, Paul and feel Williams doesnt need to be anywhere near the HOF in either category. Yes, he inspired young black players, so did Joe Gilliam, Warren Moon, James Harris and Marlin Briscoe. Winning a SB doesnt give you a special status for enshrinement. Meanwhile he vaults ahead of Vainisi, Kotal, Haley, Wells and others who have been mentioned with the contributor category since the beginning. Its all racial politics in my view, which should help out Lloyd Wells, if anyone because he inspired so many black high school and college players to reach for professional football.
I think Williams will have very hard time advancing as the BRP contributor finalist-for reasons we have expressed but also voters are very aware of the new rules and election process that places the contributor in direct competition with the coach and 3 seniors for just 3 slots-which is going to force each of those 3 BRPs advance their very best candidates as finalist to have any chance of election, since it’s no longer just a need to convince 80% of 50 voters to elect your candidate with direct path to election.
Brian he and Virginia Halas McCaskey vaulted over Clint Murchison who did much more than them
Robert totally I would have liked to have seen him over Virginia Halas McCaskey and Doug Williams
Whats really sad Andy P, was that I used to be a passionate Cowboys’ fan but Jerry Jones just wore me down. This team is just a circus now, with fans going on player-celebrity tours.
It wont get better as they could go 3-5 this weekend with Parsons still out of the line-up. McCarthy is a lame-duck coach and its doubtful that JJ would bring in Belichick. I feel the team will make a run for Ben Johnson from Detroit next year but we will see what happens. Sure, the team could make a run and try to get in the postseason but it wont be easy with Philly and Washington battling for the division, though there is still lots of football to be played.
I know Parsons should have gotten paid this past summer but I hope he doesnt stay out from injury too long. He has been a top athlete and you still hope he can come in and have another strong finish. With a DT leading the NFL in sacks, he could still be a top pass rusher when he gets back.
Brian what does that have to do with Clint Murchison being vaulted by Virginia Halas McCaskey and Doug Williams but I understand your feelings I think Bill Belichick should just call it a career and spend time with his family and doing football stuff off the field
Agreed with you Andy P. 100% time for bill belichick to call it a career
I talked about following then unfollowing the Cowboys.
I dont care about Murchison, McCaskey or Williams.
None of them are worthy of enshrinement.
Belichick wants to coach and break Shula’s victories record.
Pure and simple.
Would you Agree Brian that it has to be the right team for Belichick to come back and coach and also have a chance to break Shula’s Record
I still think it will be Philly or the Giants. Philly is playing well but can they keep it going? The first year coaches struggles have been documented well in an ESPN article.
Sorry Robert, I meant Belichick going to either team. I just commented Andy on you saying you have a passion for the Cowboys. I used too … its draining, haha.
Brian I get it now but what makes Murchison not worthy I’m not trying to start an argument but I don’t agree with you I get he was hands off and just wrote checks but he did more than that which I’ve already mentioned I’ve listed what he did I agree with you about Virginia Halas McCaskey and Doug Williams as for Bill Belichick we’ll just see you know what they say life is full of surprises I hope want to see him with a gold jacket when I go to Canton in 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
from Cowboys fan since 1977……Cowboys Suck, Go Lions!!
(and I think Murchison is deserving, but not losing much sleep over lack of interest has case appears to have..not a hill I am looking to die on..besides, more and more, besides Kraft and a handful of the GM/scouts, I really don’t care much about more contributors, even more so now where electing them could very well cost a more deserving senior or coach their election).
No offense intended but I can easy think of 5 or 6 other current semi-finalist contributors and perhaps dozen+ seniors I would prefer over Murchison
and guessing we get the senior 9 semi-finalists this week
Paul I respect your opinion we’ll just see what happens in the years to come are you no longer a Cowboys fan did you see my post saying it’s because of my mission to get Clint Murchison in the Pro Football Hall of Fame that I have developed a passion for the Dallas Cowboys
Not Hall of Fame related
I have autism and attention deficit disorder just so everyone knows
I’m thinking with the final 9 we get a couple of surprises none of them involve banks or Plunkett being in the final 9
Not abandoning Dallas but I live not far from Michigan so don’t see a problem pulling for Lions this season and their historical path to SB. Yea great to see Murchison and your interest just seems since centennial class interest in his candidacy has stalled out – I suspect one issue is that among the then senior committee and now that BRB he simply doesn’t have a strong advocate which in this process is essential
I could see Lewis and Matthews Jr as semifinalists
Seems like Anderson Sharpe Craig Meador Baughan should be there
i could see those two names too paul as semifinalists so with the 5 you mentioned and the two added we are at Anderson Baughan Craig Lewis Matthews Jr Meador Sharpe now it could come down to the last two spots which i could see going to two offensive linemen which two i dont know
Paul there is one person who might be a big supporter on the BRB John McClain I’m going to email him to tell him why Clint Murchison belongs I don’t know why Clint Murchison wasn’t elected as part of the Centennial Class maybe the Blue Ribbon Panel felt it was more important to focus on one of the faces of NFL Films a commissioner and a GM I recommend reading Hole in the Roof and checking out this website
https://www.clintmurchisonjr.com/
I hope that after Robert Kraft gets elected the contributor committee addresses Clint Murchison and he gets elected in 2028
I won’t rest until Clint Murchison gets into the Pro Football Hall of Fame
What other contributors belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame
The Pro Football Hall of Fame has a Wide Receiver logjam and that’s not going to get easier with Larry Fitzgerald coming in 2026
I think Holt gets elected this year (voters are starting to work through that queue) and suspect Fitz will be 1st ballot in 2026..but yes backlog of WR will continue for some time as unless voters elect 1 out of 5 modern every year (seems unlikely given other players from other positions arriving on ballot in next few years but likelihood new process ends up with fewer modern on occasion)
As to other contributors that belong in Hall…simply starting with current finalists I would say Ralph Hay, Frank “Bucko” Kilroy, Robert Kraft, John Wooten..plus others who have been considered in recent years-Eddie Kotal, Rich McKay, John McVay-perhaps a few others.
Admittedly my focus in on GM/Scouts and less on media types and others-I would not be complete adverse to seeing some of them elected one day but not before others I mentioned here-and with max of 1 per year (often could be 0 elected), even my queue is looking at taking likely decade+ unless election rules change to make their path more predictable.
Rich McKay is overrated and one of the reasons why the League is too network friendly–watering down defense–he did however, help change the fortunes of the Bucs and Falcons and deserves some credit but not enough for election. Blank chose him over Bill Belichick, which shows his power within the organization.
John McVay is interesting but more an administator for the 49ers as a liason to Walsh and DeBartolo. Razzano was the personnel man who brought great talent to the team and has a better contributing case than McVay, I believe.
I have those conditions myself, Andy P and understand your passion for players and Murchison. I just feel that only the original team owners–Hay included–and certain trendsetting owners like Hunt and Davis deserve enshrinement. I dont necessarily agree with Kraft either but the Patriots dynasty was undeniable, thanks to different people as well. The person you need to email is Rick Gosselin and read his website. He has always advocated for Murchison.
Youre probably right Paul, on the final nine seniors but I would love for a new addition like Martin, Foreman or someone else to shake up the queue.
We could see a surprising 1 or 2 “new” seniors among the 9 finalists
The one new name id like to see on the final 9 is a player that brian and i agree on 100% and that is Harvey Martin
I like his case-just not sure its best resume among those looking at the final 9-and if we are talking about perhaps 1 or 2 final slots for a new candidate, I am also not certain he’s the most deserving…he has a PFHOF resume worth considering, just that in this group and looking at a queue for final 9 I just don’t see him in it.
agreed paul 100% you hit it on the head completly about harvey martin and i have one zero objections to what you said about him one name you did mention that could be in the final 9 is Clay Matthews JRQmna
Paul I think both Holt and Wayne get elected clearing the logjam for Fitzgerald to get in next year and Smith becomes a finalist this year and gets elected in the years to come
Brian I actually have emailed Rick Gosselin a lot and read his website check out this article he wrote about Clint Murchison
https://rickgosselin.com/state-your-case-clint-murchison/
Thanks Andy but I have already read that State Your Case, which is convincing. If you notice, I commented on the State Your Case for Jack Vainisi, who oversaw the first NFL football-only stadium which became Lambeau Field.
Ill ask this question BW if Jack Vainisi did not pass before the start of the lombardi dynasty and was around to help out with lombardis drafts would he already be in the hall?
I believe so Robert … though success would have given Lombardi more a hand in personnel decisions which Vainisi would have gladly shared. They both worked well together and knew that they were scrutinized for being Italian. Had he not hired Vince, we can only speculate what Lombardi’s coaching career would have been like? His volatile nature made the other owners wary. Just think, Charlie Conerly and Jack Vainisi helped make Lombardi the true legend that he is but they arent good enough–yet–to make the HOF.
I think the case for Vainisi has been delayed because so much of the 60s era Packers centers around Lombardi, plus for decades contributors had no direct path to election and when they did more recent/current well-known GMs were elected first while his resume has largely been forgotten by voters and the committee-only recently pushed by historians in the know.
100% agreed Paul you hit the nail on the head
Youre right Paul, but if voters think Virginia McCaskey, Doug Williams, Art Rooney Jr, Eddie Robinson? and others have a better case than Vainisi, I would sure like to hear it …
Ill agree with you brian on McCaskey Robinson and Williams Rooney Not as much for a variety of reasons
Brian I agree with you too
Remember Brian we are talking about just 9 members of the BRP, unfortunately with that small number, just of one of those nine could get a candidate among the many multiple ties for semi-finalist. And then perhaps only takes 2 to get one as a finalist. It why for the BRP I am not so sure the 25++++++ semi-finalist lists are really that helpful in understanding logic behind those included. I am again reminded when in recent past a member of the then coaches-contributor committee looked at the 2023 (or 2024?) semi-finalist list and publicly stated that in his view (might have been Judge) only 12 or so were even worth considering. And its likely even worse now with the standalone contributors semi-finalist of 25..that pool simply is not that deep and one vote gets some weird selections-that likely will never advance. Mark my words now, in the next 2-3 years once we get the few top coaches and contributors elected, Hall will again revise process by likely only giving one coach a slot a year, and alternate so next election its just one contributor.
Whats ironic about Vainisi is, he could have drafted Jim Brown over Paul Hornung but he wanted the Golden Boy to win over the fans as a QB. Had Brown came in, maybe the team does better–they still need to decide on Starr–maybe not, but then if they did, there is no Lombardi or Hornung, who became Hall Of Fame performers. Lombardi knew when he got hired that players didnt want to play for GB, so it was easier for him to find guys that loved the game and were willing to sacrifice for team goals. Luckily, Vainisi brought in so much talent, that Lombardi could let go of players, that would be stars somewhere else, like Timmy Brown.
Paul we’ll just see
I hope the selection committee hasn’t gotten younger enough they reject Clint Murchison like they did with Buddy Parker and you know how much I would hate for that to happen
Frankly with a 50 member selection committee getting younger and younger every year plus contributor needing to compete with coach and 3 seniors for just 3 slots I don’t hold out much hope for most recent contributor semifinalists to be ekected, just a few -and let’s remember new election process is intentionally designed to reduce total number of elected PFHOFers – contributors will really be impacted by that outcome
It why I suspect when it comes to coaches and contributors (and also likely to seniors) the more recent and more familiar/popular names among those candidates and finalists will have a huge advantage over others considered by each BRP and even more so by the 50 member selection committee. Its not right nor perhaps fair, but its likely the case
Paul we’ll just see you know what they say life is full of surprises
a surprise to me andy would be one of these three seniors not making the final 9 Maxie Baughan Eddie Meador Tommy Nobis
Robert me too but we’ll just see what happens I’d love to see all three of them in the Pro Football Hall of Fame especially Tommy Nobis you want know something about Tommy Nobis not only was he a great football player but off the field he was an ever better human being he formed a job center that helps people with special needs like me
https://tommynobiscenter.org/
Under current rules I am very pessimistic about chances for other coaches and contributors expect top well known and recent candidates – and for seniors it’s perhaps about a dozen – the prospects for all the others are very slim
Paul like who
Of the 2025 finalists Coaches with SB win and contributors as owners, GM, scouts have best changes next decade. As to seniors, the 9 finalists (when announced and perhaps 5 or 6 more….
Paul do you mean chances
Ahhhhh yeaaa
Curious question Paul are you still sticking with anderson Craig and Sharpe as your three senior nominees because I might be changing my mind on one of them
Sal Paolantonio was on a Commanders podcast I listen to regularly. It was mentioned in passing that the Contributor Committee is meeting today to discuss the nine finalists. Given the audience, Sal mentioned that he was eager to hear the case for Doug Williams. I am too. While I’m not yet convinced about his roll as a contributor, I am convinced that he never really got a fair shot at the HOF as a player. Admittedly injuries too their toll, but TB’s ownership was ridiculous in the way they treated him. Without any form of free agency, Williams was forced to go to USFL just to get a reasonable salary. Without that giant hiatus in his career, who knows what his career numbers might have been. He did go the NFC Championship game in his second season. Therefore, maybe there should be a place in the HOF for a guy like Williams. If you need a parallel, look at Red Grange. His career numbers are less than stellar. In fact, after his early injuries, he was a much much better defensive player than runner. But no one can seriously contest his importance to pro football. Maybe WIlliams falls into a similar category.
I was also pretty intrigued by a lot of the “outside the box” names on the original contributor list. For example, to me personally, Chris Berman is as important to my love of pro football as John Madden. Yeah, I know Madden was inducted as a coach, but even at the time, the video game and his announcing career were widely discussed as contributing factors. With Berman, I’m the perfect age for NFL Primetime. I can still remember how revolutionary the show was. I learned about all then-28 franchises as Berman narrated mini-movie highlight reels of each and every game, including his widely adopted nicknames for numerous players. I understand that those older will say the same thing about Howard Cosell, and that is completely legitimate too. Similar to both Sabols, Berman greatly contributed to the growth of pro football, which should be considered in the contributor category. As a Washington fan, I love Bobby Beathard and think he absolutely belongs in the Hall. But, he didn’t really “change” or “grow” the game. Neither did Polian, Wolf, or any other GM. They were just excellent talent evaluators that produced numerous winning teams. Berman and Cosell allowed those GMs to do their jobs by bringing in millions of viewers and billions of dollars. There should be a play in the bust room for them too.
Robert: guess I would stick with Sharpe Anderson and Craig, but likely never get all three predictions correct as really hard to get into the minds of 9 members of that BRP…
plus with the new election process there has been an interesting strategy suggested by some (not by any voters that I am aware of)… have 1 or 2 very strong senior candidates and 1 weak one..the idea being that when the 50 voters look at the 3 seniors 1 contributors 1 coach can the senior BRP “game the system” by positioning 1 or 2 of their guys and not risk split votes across the 3 finalists and risk 1 or none elected…lets say its MikeH, Kraft, Craig,Sharpe,Anderson..max 3 and need 80% (but thats a max not a min) so with 150 total votes (3x50voters) and one needs 40 votes to be elected…what if Kraft gets 45, MikeH gets 44, leaving 61 votes for the seniors split for example Sharpe 38, Anderson 16 and Craig 7. So maybe Seniors BRP advances Sharpe (44), Matthews Jr (10) and Plunkett (7) … Its just a theory but one that the new rules make possible (vote splits across the 5 finalists and less than 3 are elected).
The other concerning aspect of the new process is what if there are 3 very deserving seniors, but due to vote splits and the coach and contributor what happens to the 1 or 2 seniors not elected–would the BRP continue to advocate their cases and advance again for 2026 or do they move on to other seniors not yet discussed by full committee.
Update: results of 9 senior and 25+ moderns should be released in coming weeks.
I respect your opinion Justin, but I dont agree about Doug Williams. This matter was discussed on the PFRA site. I hope youre on there. Williams–or his agent–asked for too much money from the Bucs, and they refused. He was trying to be the highest paid QB but didnt have the production to back it up. Yes, we all know Culverhouse was a terrible owner but Williams could have stayed in Tampa. He wanted 600,000 but the Bucs offered 400,000 which was still more than the top QBs. Even in the USFL, Williams didnt stand out.
Like I stated before, Williams had a great arm but could be erratic as well. Accuracy has been an issue with many QBs, not just black or white and Williams never met his potential as a QB till he replaced Schroeder at the end of the 1987 season. He became starter in 1988 but flopped. His career simply wasnt good enough for the HOF and I dont think he did enough post-career for contributor election.
Whether he is elected or not, Williams owes his career to Joe Gibbs, who first wanted and developed him in Tampa and then got him for the Redskins.
Paul: Your thought experiment is a concerning reality. I’ve also been thinking about what will (or should) happen to the inevitable senior, coach, and contributor candidates that are not elected. There is only one reason not to renominate them the next year–a new, more worthy candidate becoming available. It isn’t an up or down vote after all. That said, I think there is a very real threat that the year someone is nominated will make a huge impact on whether that someone is elected. In effect, election at the final stage of the senior/contributor/coach categories has become a measure of “relative” worthiness (among each other) rather than based on an objective standard of worthiness (i.e., yes or no). This is a big difference from years past.
Justin what’s the name of the podcast and what do you think about Clint Murchison as a Hall of Famer he’s more deserving than Virginia Halas McCaskey and Doug Williams
As usual I’m going with Robert Kraft I would love to see him with a Gold Jacket when I got to Canton in 2028 for Tom Brady’s Hall of Fame induction
Contributor BRP met today to select its 2025 finalist-no idea when Hall will announce…Coach BRP meets Nov 19th to select theirs…Senior BRP have submitted their ballots for 9 semi-finalists-do not know when that list will be released or when they meet to select their 3 finalists-except Hall expects all these selections to be complete by end of Nov. So we will soon get answers to many of our questions, and only 2 months until election meeting and just under 3 months until announcement of results on NFL Honors show the Thursday evening before Chiefs and Lions meet in SB….
Paul: I’m sticking with Anderson Craig and Sharpe also but like Andy keeps saying we could get a surprise
Good Morning, Everyone! Hi Paul! Looking forward to chatting with everyone about the HOF on this site now that the X is done. Seniors I do think will be be Anderson, Craig and Sharpe. Coach Holmgren. Mr. Kraft and my class of moderns would be Luke K, Jared Allen, Torri Holt, Antonio Gates and Willie Anderson. Woodson and Allen also ones to watch for IMO.
Solid picks Robert but yep we can expect at least one surprise.
Meanwhile we still wait for 9 senior finalists and 25+ties modern candidates to be announced …..