Not sure how many of you are on Twitter at all (follow us at @zoneblitzcom [Andy] and @toneblitz [Me]…although it tends to skew more fantasy football there), but stumbled across a tweet earlier tonight that interested me in a couple ways:
Frank Gore ?
Jamaal Charles ? https://t.co/y9tljTPFmM— PFF (@PFF) May 25, 2020
First is the content itself–Gore vs Charles…not really a heads up that I would have ever considered, mostly because I never considered Charles to be that level of player. Don’t get me wrong–he was a great player (that I think may have won me a fantasy football championship or two), but for such a short period of time.
While there are some short term career running backs in Canton, I don’t feel like Charles reached the bar of Gale Sayers (who admittedly may not be elected today, but in his time was apparently considered a revolutionary back) or Terrell Davis, who cracked the 2,000 yard mark AND led his team to two Super Bowl wins.
He played 11 seasons in the NFL, but was only four times did he start more than 10 games (although defining a starting RB isn’t always that easy), cracked the 1,000 yard rushing mark five times, and finished his career with over 10,000 all-purpose yards.
Gore has been discussed several times here–although amazingly enough, we’ve apparently never given him his own “Should Frank Gore Make the Hall of Fame” post…which might tell you something.
The more I look at it…the premise of the article is kind of ridiculous–I hadn’t even read the full article before I started writing this, and while it’s obvious that they’re trying to give an example of “Longetivity” vs. “Peak Performance”–but in choosing Charles, they kind of missed the mark, given that Gore’s best season (his second season in 2006, a full two years before Charles was drafted) Gore put up 2,160 all-purpose yards with 1,695 on the ground–a full 180 yards ahead of Charles’ peak season of 1,980 from 2013.
It’s true, Charles did it in a lot fewer touches–329 vs 373–and Charles had two seasons over 1,900 total yards, whereas Gore’s second highest season was 1,538. But to argue that Charles’ peak was high enough to warrant Hall of Fame selection…when Charles wasn’t even leading the league in yardage when he was at his peak, and only led the league in rushing TDs once (with 12)…just falls flat.
But the second thing that the article got me thinking about actually has to do with the Hall of Fame selection process. I think we would all agree that the current process has some flaws in it–not the least of which (in my eyes) comes down to trusting the opinions of a bunch of sports writers, when some of the sports writers that I’ve seen on the list over the years frankly aren’t that good (with their writing, their impartiality, or their sports takes).
But what about people who work at companies like Pro Football Focus, who seemingly have made serious in roads in their acceptance into the NFL media circles, with some announcers (albeit mostly Cris Collinsworth, who I didn’t realize is apparently the majority owner of the company). They do an amazing job breaking the game down into analytics & grades–although their grading process draws plenty of criticism as well.
As the game heads even more towards an analytics based approach–much like baseball–are we going to start to include things like career PFF rating (or similar services from other companies) into our decisions of who is Hall of Fame worthy? Should some of the top analysts from these companies be given a say in who gets in, as some of the writers roll off the list of voters? (Maybe some have already? I haven’t checked the list in a while).
I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t–just curious what the community thinks…about Gore vs. Charles AND about how analytics may play a role in future HOF selections.
Photo by Mike Morbeck
Personally I have never been opposed to different views and expertise on the selection committee, including analytics, former players, GMs or scouts, as long as no view becomes too dominate and there remains a mix of expertise and experience represented. And to be clear no one lacks impartiality and that includes folks at PFF. Ratings are driven by data (which BTW we really only have for recent players) and in the case of many positions, like OL, is still very subjective in terms of measures and how they are built into a ratings system.
I tend to agree that Charles does not have the highest or longest peak that would warrant election. As I have said over and over again, TD was a special unique case, he was not the model for electing every other short peak career, his accomplishments made him deserving and others simply can not match that. As to Gore, I don’t see how the voters, or anyone else for that matter, can overlook 15,000+ rushing yards that includes nine 1,000 yr seasons (only 3 others have that many or more). Not saying Gore is 1st ballot, but he’s getting in one day.
I think pretty much everyone here was opposed to Jamal Charles being a HOFer. For me Charles aligns more with Sayers than Davis as a talent and career. He just needed a little more. Another couple years or the ST success of Sayers. Too bad he could stay healthy. What I really wish is he had stayed at UT for his senior year and won the Heisman Trophy. He certainly was capable after 18 TD’s and 1,600 yards in his Junior year. He only got drafted in the 3rd round.
The other Longhorn Priest Holmes is more like TD IMO and he probably falls a little short because of under use early one. Actually IMO he was an over achiever. I never saw his success coming out of college .It’s a credit to his hard work.
A damn shame we can’t get one Longhorn RB in the HOF out of these great running backs: Eric Metcalf, Ricky Williams, Cedric Benson, Priest Holmes and Jamal Charles.
A little hard for me to appreciate Frank Gore because he feels like one of the least sexy HOF RB’s ever. Lol! Probably because his calling card never was his moves per se and he started out with bad 49er teams not getting a ton of exposure. He was often described as a lunch pail RB. He had goo speed but it was his strength, toughness and in the end his durability that’s going to get him to Canton. He’s very HOF deserving, so get his bust ready I predict he’ll be in within 5 years of eligibility.
Frank Gore wasnt the exciting runner Charles, Holmes or Chris Johnson was.
He was gifted running between the tackles, a poor mans version of Emmitt Smith.
His postseason numbers is why I believe he should be in the HOF …
He was instrumental in helping get the 49ers to three straight NFC Championship Games and his three postseason games in the 2012/13 SB run were excellent …
His numbers in Indy would have been better if Luck would have stayed healthy on the field.
Its really hard to predict the next runners getting into the Hall.
Many had great careers but couldnt get beyond 12,000 yards rushing but some were excellent receivers as well, including Craig, Watters, Brooks, Barber, Holmes, Walker, and others … I hope OJ Anderson gets his due some day …
So I’m thinking Frank Gore has had a HOF career without without being clear cut HOF talent . That’s probably splitting hairs somewhat but I wonder how many other players we can name like him, who if they didn’t play more than 10 years wouldn’t be in the HOF?
John Riggins and Charlie Joiner come to my mind. Riggins maybe shouldn’t because he’s a bit of an enigma. lol He actually showed he was a HOF talent in the last half of his career. The young Riggins may of got distracted by the Big Apple or just was on a crappy team? lol Maybe Priest Holmes is similar as a late show off but he won’t make HOF.
My biggest issue with Joiner being in the HOF are the other WR’s not in. He only waited 4 years. He wasn’t what I’d consider a high profile WR. Certainly one of the better ones but not even the best on his own Team some years. I do think he’s a HOFer though.
James Lofton is another one that kind of snuck up on me. I guess I wasn’t paying enough attention when he was with Green Bay.
Anyone else stand out who wouldn’t be in the HOF if they didn’t stretch out their career?
I think of Terrell Owens …
He stayed in such great shape and avoided injuries, that he played forever, accumulating statistics but was a cancer on every team.
His hands were suspect, but he was probably the most physical WR ever running with the ball in his hands. He absolutely refused to be tackled, which is why he is in the HOF …
There is no way Art Monk makes the Hall without his long career. Tall and smooth, but he had other good teammate receivers as well.
Andre Reed … He was great going over the middle but would not be in, had he not played a long time. He and Jim Kelly are joined at the hip.
Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin. Both I feel are Hall Of Famers because defenders knew they were coming but both had a lot of average seasons running with the ball and Martin despite excellent talent, never showed up but one game in the postseason. I will never understand why Bill Parcels did not give him the ball 40 times in the SB against Green Bay, the dumbest coaching of his career. Instead, he puts the game in Bledsoes hands and he throws four interceptions that kills their chance at winning.
Fred Biletnikoff as well. Great receiver, who had great hands and postseason numbers but had NO speed and just average statistics with a long career. He proves that postseason numbers and a SB, should help a player get into the HOF. George Sauer Jr of the Jets is just like him but retired after just six seasons. If he had played with Namath like Fred did with Lamonica and Stabler, he would have been elected as well.
John Henry Johnson is another player who benefitted from a long career but wasnt as good as his running back teammates with the 49ers …
I still dont understand how Floyd Little got elected ? A tough, smaller running back like Gore but no championship and average statistics … there is no way he should be in over OJ Anderson, Don Perkins, Ricky Watters, Eddie George, Priest Holmes, Corey Dillon, Roger Craig, James Brooks and other deserving, but debatable running backs.
I hope TonyP you also read Talkoffame network on SI/Maven site.
A lot of good articles on potential AFL players getting into the HOF someday …
Paul doesn’t believe many players should get in due to injuries and short careers, and I agree but I believe at least seven have legitimate cases …
I believe these players should get in the Hall
Jim Tyrer
Walt Sweeney
Art Powell
Dave Grayson
Ed Budde
Tom Sestak
Cookie Gilchrist … due to Canada/AFL career
Abner Haynes … Super close due to blackballing from KC
Gino Cappelletti also has a case for being the All-Time AFL scorer as well …
Paul liked Larry Grantham as well, though I prefer Haynes with his big-play ability …
No I haven’t been to the site for a while but will check it out. I guess I tend to agree with Paul. i tend to de-value the AFL stars of the first half of the decade. Maybe I need to read up on and can be swayed on a couple of those guys.
Another RB who benefited from a long career was Marcus Allen. Actually I was a little surprised when he made the HOF because I wasn’t aware of the numbers he accumulated. Like John Riggins he was a money player around the goal line scoring lots of TD’s. If you just look at the year to year numbers he doesn’t stand out as much as OJ Anderson or some others at the start of their careers for all the talent he had. His SB performance put him on the map and he had one great rushing garnered. He got a ton of good media for being one of the most productive RB’s over 30 years old. Plus he got sympathy for the years in Al Davis’ doghouse. He only had two !,000 yd seasons by my 16 game standard.
If Bettis retired at 10 year mark he’s probably still a HOFer at 2/5 with 4.0 career avg . He’s a close call IMO even with extra two years but in the end the TD’s garner HOF attention. He had some shake and bake when he broke into the League so talent was there.
Curtis Martin had even better talent and only played 10 years . It sure seemed like he played longer. Maybe because his game changed so much. He was 3 yds and a cloud of dust at the end and did it very well. Martin had nine 1,000 yd seasons by my 16 game standard. He had a really great RB career. I think he was the most dedicated of all the guys named too.
Even George Rodgers was better than Floyd Little and he was out of shape. lol Little was good and a bit of an over achiever for his time when great RB’s were hard to come by. Denver fans got him in I don’t know what the problem is with Mr. Orange Crush Randy Gradishar? He deserved it more than Robert Brazile in my estimation.
Here are some stats:
Stat
Randy Gradishar 5/7 y 10, g 145, t 2,049, int. 20, sacks 20.5, fr 13, dpoy 1
,
Mike Singletary 8/10 y 12, g 179, t 1,488, int. 7, sacks 19, fr 12, dpoy 2
Brian Urlacher 4/8 y 13, g 182, t 1,353, int. 22, sacks 41.5, fr 15, dpoy 1
Ray Lewis 7/13 y 17, g 228, t 2,061, int. 31, sacks 41.5, fr 20, dpoy 2
Gradishar should have gotten in before a number of linebackers including overrated Singletary, who couldnt cover and Urlacher, who had bad instincts against the run.
I felt Harry Carson and Les Richter were overrated as well, while Carl Banks and Wilbur Marshall were more complete and underrated.
Lots of one dimensional pass rushing linebackers are in the Hall as well, which is insulting to a compete linebacker like Gradishar as well.
He needs to get in soon however, because if more Broncos get in, fatigue will set in and he might miss his chance but he should be next.
We havent gotten word yet, on yearly multiple seniors but I believe by next year, he and Pearson or Wistert will get in …
Marcus Allen was on pace for a 4th 1,000 rushing season in 1982. The problem is the 1982 NFL strike. He was on pace to have one of the best rookie seasons of all time for a running back.
Marcus in just 9 games had 11 rushing touchdowns and another 3 touchdowns receiving. Marcus averaged 77.4 yards per game in 1982. Marcus Allen as rookie had 1,098 receiving and rushing yards combined in just 9 games.
As far as James Lofton goes, he had 6 1,000 yard seasons. The 1982 NFL strike prevented him from getting a 7th 1,000 receiving season. He averaged 77.3 yards per game in 1982.
The 1987 NFL strike had about 15 percent of all NFLPA players cross the Picket line. James Lofton was not one of them.
James Lofton missed 4 games as a result including the 1 game every NFL player missed that season. He averaged 73.3 yards per game in 1987. That cost James another 1,000 yard receiving yard season.
Those 2 NFL strikes cost Lofton the 800 reception mark and being 8th of all time in Receiving yards. Lofton has has 14,004 receiving yards, but the 2 strikes cost him over 800 receiving yards. Those games missed due to strike prevented him from being ahead of Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Steve Smith.
Those 2 strikes preventing 2 1,000 receiving yard seasons from happening did hurt James Lofton’s legacy on the field because 8 1,000 receiving yard seasons in a career was a big deal in his time. James lofton in his era was one of the best deep threats as a wide receiver as his career 18.3 yards per reception showed.
Lofton was fast and gifted … every time I watched Jerry Rice, he reminded me of a slower version of Lofton. The Raiders wasted his talents and he should have won a SB with the Bills but Kelly struggled in all of the games.
Marcus Allen was gifted too … his running, catching, and blocking was superior, his only fault was fumbling at inopportune times …
If Mike Ditka never coached a game after his stint with the Chicago Bears 106 – 62- 0 should the two -time Coach of the Year be in the HOF as a HC ?
With what George Seifert 114-62 did as a DC and two- time SB winning HC, I wonder why he isn’t in the HOF? He should be IMO.
I think Jimmy Johnson 80-64 is the the first and last HOF HC with under 100 wins. I was never a supporter of his. Not going to argue against but his record shows the importance of popularity and winning the big ones.
Ditka is certainly worthy of consideration (although I doubt he will be) and yes Seifert is deserving, and he’s not in yet as traditionally it has been very hard for coaches to get in over players, if the Hall were to combine coaches with contributors (or give them their own category) he certainly would be among the favorites. And with Johnson you need to consider all his accomplishments including the role he played in drafting and developing a team that would win 3 SBs in four years, it was noted by the voters.
And yes I tend to be careful in my consideration of short playing careers, for me with so many deserving candidates with outstanding careers of some length, the standard for short career candidates simply needs to be high in my opinion.
Who was responsible for getting Charles Haley and Deion Sanders? The addition of Deion to the Team I thought was huge. They needed to extra juice at that time. Feels like when the Bulls got Dennis Rodman to me.
Only 22 Head Coaches in HOF after 100 years. I guess it’s about right. I can only think of one HC who’s really being snubbed at this point and his name is Dan Reeves. It’s been said there’s too much emphasis on winning one game . I would say that’s the case with Dan Reeves.
I do think it’s really important to get to that one game though. I’m having a hard time squaring that thought with my belief that there should be a place for Marty Schottenheimer and Chuck Knox in the HOF. I would imaging others are torn with the idea too, that’s why they haven’t been inducted yet. Can’t tell me that both those guys weren’t on the level of Tony Dungy. Well I suppose you can lol but neither had one of the best QB’s in NFL history.
What do we think about Dick Vermeil turning three teams into winners, one of which the Rams, he did in Jimmy Johnson fashion? One could argue, that Team had the potential to have the same sort of success the Cowboys had in the 90’s. I still don’t understand why Vermeil left the Rams only to join then Chiefs after a year off. Maybe running everything was too much pressure?
I feel Schottenheimer should have gotten in before Cowher. Cowher inherited a talented team from Noll and just added good talent as he went along. Marty had to build teams in Cleveland, KC and SD and had all of them competitive for a SB but never had the right QB … He should have had Rivers lead him to a SB but got fired before that could happen. I dont know if the Chargers could have gotten by NE though. Kosar was good but needed a team effort and Montana chose to retire.
Knox also never had a QB to lead him to the promise land. He probably wished he would have developed and kept Jaworski but hindsight is 20/20 … His teams were tough and consistent though …
I dont believe Ditka was a HOF coach and Seifert inherited a talented team from Walsh.
He got Sanders to help him win a championship but made mistakes in getting rid of Lott, Haley, Craig and Montana … very close call on the HOF. I still cant believe he got fired after 1996 but losing to the Packers frustrated DeBartolo …
Shanahan deserves to be in the Hall as well, though switching from Plummer to Cutler at QB was a mistake. Cutler played his best football in Denver but they couldnt win consistently, and that cost Shanahan his job.
Reeves did a great job too but got lucky as well. He inherited a talented team from Red Miller, especially on defence but couldnt build the offensive line and running game that Elway needed. Shanahan knew this immediately when he went back to Denver but Reeves did well with Atlanta and New York. Its hard to believe he never had back to back playoff years with Atlanta …
Vermeil has a case but falls short. Yes he had that dream season in 1999/00 but never won with the Rams beforehand. He wore his teams out but loved his players. He should have won it all in 80/81 but his team was just too wore out from the playoffs to handle the Raiders, who were on a mission with Plunkett.
Couldn’t you say say a lot of HOF coach’s got lucky, when it comes to QB’s? We still don’t know where Belichek would be without Brady? Whre would Shula be without Unitas, Griese and then Marino falling into his lap? How about Dungy if the he did not get set up with Manning? Of course there are a number of scenarios where coach’s develop QB’s, (Gibbs and Walsh come to mind.) But don’t think you an decide if a coach should enter the HOF based on how good his QB was. You need to either have a very good winning pct. or you need to have SB success.
I agree with Bill, and again it is worth mentioning again that the voting process works against electing coaches. Voters themselves have stated publicly many times that if given a choice between a deserving coach as a finalist or a player, in the majority of cases players are favored by voters. That factor alone explains why many deserving coaches are still not in. The BRP provided an opportunity to elect two, and certainly their choices are worthy of debate, but regardless of which two there would still be others not yet elected.
Only solution is to combine coaches with contributors or give coaches their own category, steps many voters have advocated for but to date no action has been taken by the Hall Board to address that (or even decide/announce number of seniors or contributors to be elected in 2021). Board met last week, and usually also meets during enshrinement week in early August, either opportunity will need to address election process for 2021 which if falls back to normal schedule would include senior and contributor finalist announcements by end of August. Within last several months David Baker has also hinted at possible changes to election process and schedule, so about about 2021 elections remains uncertain and could in fact be much different, for coaches as well as players and contributors.
Brian- i know you wrote this post awhile ago but I agree that Wilbur Marshal and Randy Gradishar are underrated and both should be in the hall. I also agree that Harry Carson was slightly overrated. Actually his best season were when the Giants were terrible and he made a lot of down field tackles. But one place I would argue with you is “Lot of one dimensional linebackers in the hall.” I assume you are reffering to “rush linebackers.” there are actually only 4 rush backers in the hall 1. Lawrence Taylor 2. Andre Tippet 3. Rickey jackson 4. and Kevin Greene. That is 4 out of 29 modern linebackers in the hall. Plus LT and Tippett were actually very good vs the run and Jackson was better than average for a rushbacker. I think I could make the argument that only one linebacker in the hall is one dimensional and that is Kevin Greene.
Youre right Bill …
I actually thought theyre were more including Derrick Thomas but the Hall does try to recognize pash rushers which helps Tippett and Greene, though they were outstanding getting to the QB. Pass rushing helped Ted Hendricks get into the Hall as well but he made plays all the time.
Some linebackers, that were great in pass coverage still dont get their due like Don Shinnick, Stan White, Lee Roy Jordan and the biggest snub of all, Chuck Howley …
I can’t believe I forgot Derrick Thomas…good call. I would love to see Chuck Howley in the hall as well as Karl Mecklinburg but only after Gradishar gets in.
I always bring up Lee Roy Jordan 1/5 because I thought he was such a great all around MLB and did it so well late into his career. His Pro Football career AV of 123 which is certainly strong enough to qualify among the better LB’s in history. Nine time Pro Bowler Harry Carson’s AV is not as high, maybe because he has only 11 ints which is very low even for a LB. Isiah Robertson was a better OLB than Carson IMO. Bill’s right about Carson being better early. He was the only bright spot for the Giants for a few years along with a couple other Defensive players. I thought DE George Martin was good and Brad Van Pelt 0/5 was very good. Notice I said “very good” like I viewed Carson. lol
This is the NFL All 80’s Decade Team LB’s –
Mike Singletary
Lawrence Taylor
Ted Hendricks 2/4
Jack Lambert 4/4
Andre Tippett 2/5
John Anderson 0/0
Carl Banks1/1
The zero time pro bowler John Anderson made the list but HOFer Harry Carson 0/7, Karl Meckenburg 3/4 did not. Anderson was clearly under valued through the 80’s by whomever decided pro bowl selections. But was he that much under valued? Kind of tells you what the Hall of Fame or whomever makes list thought about Carson and Meckenburg . I wonder what changed for Carson? It clearly hasn’t for Mecklenburg and I’m not sure it should. He is the definition of a on the fence guy IMO.
Didn’t the Redskins have any good LB’s in the 1980’s? lol
ESPN is reporting that 2020 PFHOF game and enshrinement events are being postponed until August 2021
Mecklenburg should be voted in as well but after Gradishar … made way too many plays, especially in the postseason.
Rewatched a Denver divisional playoff win against the Patriots from 1986.
Elway’s first playoff win. He hurt his ankle and had to gut it out against a tough NE team.
Tony Eason sucked for the Patriots. I still cant believe he was drafted ahead of Marino.
Despite a bad ankle, Elways wins, setting up the next game in Cleveland, known as “The Drive” …
I just wanted to comment on something lol since the thread everyone is commenting on won’t load properly for more than a week. I have gone anywhere. :) .
Charles was a greater threat and more exciting player. IMO had HOF talent. But I think his career just falls short of HOF as much as I hate as a Longhorn fan. Gore gets in even though not sure if he was HOF talent like Charles but lasted for ever like a Marcus Allen.
Haha … arguing for Dick Anderson for the HOF blew up the thread. Maybe Tony, Andy and Paul got tired of my comments …
I thought for sure I was black-balled! Haha
I think the matrix hiccuped
Stuck in neutral again!! I know I didn’t say anything bad this time. Haha
I just went to one of these websites that rank who were the best athletes of the players who wore a certain jersey number. I looked at number 33 and they had Larry Bird number one. LOL They had Tony Dorsett number 10 and 23 people didn’t think he was a good athlete. Gotta be kidding. They must of been Eagles fans. :)
RIP ex-Texas Longhorn great RB Jim Bertelson. He played 5 years with the Rams in the early 1970’s and had a nose for the goal line. Rushed for 871 yards in his best season.
It aint Iggle fans … Dorsett had his only 200 yard game against them …
It should be Gradishar getting the next senior nomination for the HOF -Pro Football Journal pushing him hard recently- but I wouldnt be upset if Dilweg, Lewellen or Wistert get voted in. Doubtful it will be another receiver, like Branch, or a safety. Can Ken Riley seal the deal ? QB Anderson will be intriguing as well but I doubt it.
I can get behind Gradishar as the next pick along with Howley. I wonder when the last time the Senior Committee selected someone who played pre-1950?
I did some research and was it Mack Speedie and Ed Sprinkle in 2020 but that wasn’t the traditional Committee. Before that it appears to be Fritz Pollard in 2005 a great Black player from the 1920’s. And before that 1975. I think the 20’s are done unless they choose another Black player. Can’t remember the name of the Guard I support that Halas said was so good.
I guess if I could support Wistert over the other two players but that’s weak. There’s already a Tackle, Center and Guard from his Eagle’s team in the HOF. Having three players from the same OL has to be really rare. A fourth I doubt has ever happened or will.
Wistert played well on defense as well. Doubtful an offensive skill position gets in but who knows ? Could be new voters …
Yup, who really knows? lol I think it’s time to come up with a new thread. :)
I was thinking that a new thread in early August would give everyone chance to discuss class of 2022 senior, coach and contributor who will be selected in late August and also set us up for modern class election process that starts with preliminary list in September?
I would be willing to create the content, and I guess no reason we could set up before August……….
I concur with paul 100% on that