Well a year has passed and it has included plenty of anticipation and discussion over the Class of 2020 – with a special amount of focus associated with the Centennial Class. After years of debating over senior candidates and hoping for a larger group of said seniors to be elected, we finally got our wish. Yet the results were disappointing to many of us. We should reflect on the fact that 10 seniors (along with three contributors and two coaches) along with five modern-era candidates were elected in a class of 20 for 2020.
Last month has seen plenty of follow-up posts and comments about the results and even our first annual prediction contest! Thanks everyone for their continued input and posts in keeping the debates and discussion fresh and updated.
So, perhaps now is a time to move on to 2021 and the future. We know the next few years will again see deserving modern candidates, including some likely first-ballot selections, along with seniors, coaches and contributors worthy of consideration. What has yet to be determined (or officially announced) by the Hall is whether or not they will stick with the recent system under which they have rotated between one senior and two contributor candidates and vice versa.
Also of interest is whether coaches will still be considered with contributors or will be given a category of their own. Rumors and speculation has suggested that we will have two seniors, one contributor and one coach candidate each year, but we are still waiting on a decision by the Hall. There is no known timetable for an announcement of their plans.
If we anticipate that the election schedule will resume back to its normal timeframe we would expect the senior, contributor and coach finalists to be nominated by their respective committees in mid/late August, with modern preliminary candidates following in late September. That latter group of modern-era candidates would be whittled to semifinalists in late November and finalists in January, with Selection Saturday remaining the day before Super Bowl LV in Tampa on February 7.
There have been some suggestions that the Hall may be looking at possible changes to the election process, but no confirmation of what that may mean in terms of details.
So, over the next several months, we’ll continue to look into discussing, both under this post and in specifically dedicated posts, a few topics, including these (but feel free to suggest others in the comments):
- What will be the impact of the Centennial Class be moving forward? Will those not-elected be the focus of deliberation by seniors, contributors/coaches committees for future election?
- Will the number of first-ballot elections continue to be debated as the number is increasingly a significant part of the modern five candidate slots?
- How will voters address continued backlogs now still existing at OL and WR, and soon to be at QB?
- Is the class total limit of eight sufficient? Should it be increased? Or, as Deion Sanders recently suggested, is the Hall already getting to “big” or “watered down”?
- Will all-decade players (including the yet to be announced Team of the 2010s) continue to be fast-tracked to election?
Let the debates and discussions continue.
Great Overview Paul …
Yeah, we might get some decisions and answers from the HOF voters and committees including the 2010-2019 All Decade team by the time Trump is reelected.
Not really sure what should happen with an every other year rotation between coaches and contributors. It may not happen because most of the deserving candidates would get in rather quickly unless logically, great assistant coaches/ coordinators and great personnel/head scouts can get elected as well.
As long as two seniors per year are elected, I will be happy because there are many that are worthy.
Thanks ! And contributors includes GMs and scouts while thinking coaches will expand to assistant coaches, should be plenty of deserving candidates, speculation actually that Hall will go with 5 moderns 2 seniors 1 coach 1 contributor each election but will have to wait for official decisions by Hall Board , likely not until summer
Clark Judge posted interesting Talk of Fame column on chances for Calvin Johnson as first ballot PFHOFer in 2021 (hint: I don’t think he will be, and that will be surprise and shock to many and huge topic next February, that is my prediction). He also mentioned voters have first draft of the 2021 preliminary list so if you have someone who has been left off now is time to let a voter or Hall know to add them as this list will go through several drafts before final preliminary list is released in September.
Yeah, to many players with excellent careers were left off the preliminary vote for 2020 …
Like I commented on TOFN/Maven … these guys I feel, should also be on the 2021 Preliminary List
OT Matt Light
CB Asante Samuel
NT Ted Washington
DT Kevin Williams
OG Nate Newton
DE Clyde Simmons
RB Warrick Dunn
DT Henry Thomas
SS Carnell Lake
OC Mark Stepnoski
LB Hardy Nickerson
OT Tarik Glenn
OC Tom Nalen
CB Mark Collins
FS Eugene Robinson
OG Ruben Brown
CB Antione Winfield
LB Greg Lloyd
LB Joey Porter
SS Bill Bates
TE Mark Bavaro … senior ?
DE Leonard Marshall
CB James Hasty
FS Kevin Ross
OG Dave Szott
OT John Alt
DE Jacob Green …senior ?
Leonard Marshall has also dropped into the Seniors pool.
I’d say from that list Kevin Williams has the best chance of being eventually selected and he’s also a first time eligible for 2021.
Early prediction:
Peyton Manning
Charles Woodson
Tony Boselli
Alan Faneca
John Lynch
2022:
Demarcus Ware
Calvin Johnson
LeRoy Butler
Richard Seymour
Holt, Wayne or Zach Thomas
To some degree not being left off the preliminary list is reflection a player lacking qualifications to be considered, for me unless player has at least multiple all pro selections or other significant season/career/playoff stats or awards, it is not really a serious omission for them to left off. Not sure if very good or excellent careers should be the bar, perhaps outstanding would be a better distinction to make. Is it really an issue or terrible mistake that CB James Hasty, OT Matt Light, SS Carnell Lake etc… are not on the preliminary list???
There are a few guys on Brian’s list that were multiple Pro Bowlers and/or All Pros. Just to name a few:
Nate Newton; 6 Pro Bowls and 2 time first team All Pro.
Warrick Dunn finished with over 15,000 yards from scrimmage.
Clyde Simmons had 121.5 sacks.
Maybe not HOFers but I think their careers deserve a nomination. Leslie O’Neal, Corey Dillon and Richmond Webb were previous snubs who wouldn’t look out of place as semi finalists.
I was not suggesting all his names were not worthy, just making a more broader comment that there is likely a line or bar that should be reached before suggesting an omission is a concern, clearly Newton, Dunn, Simmons, O’Neal, Dillon and Webb all clear that bar. And it is odd under an open nominating process how frequent we see deserving candidates left off, but truth of the matter is if you starting listing players with one all pro and or 2+ more pro bowl selections that list could be 200+ and include 100+ who would never be elected.
Oh but its okay for Jeff Garcia, Boomer Esiason, Jake Delhomme, Mike Alstott, Maurice Jones Drew, Jeff Hostetler, Lorenzo Neal, Casey Hampton, Clinton Portis and others ?
C’mon Paul …
Where did I say it was OK for those players? My whole and only point is that an open preliminary list can led to some odd inclusions and even more so weird exclusions, and that there should be no concern over omission of any player without decent qualifications. More of the focus should be on those clearly deserving (Webb, O’Neal, Corey Dillon) to make sure they get on the ballot and NONE on the likes of Jeff Garcia, Jake Delhomme, Jeff Hostetler,
Thats my point its subjective, just like pro bowl nominations. Many of the players I listed could and should have had more All Pro, Pro Bowl selections but they played in eras that had many great players …
Well you have to start and end somehow or you have a list of 200+ and it’s not way to go back and address elections of all pro and pro bowl results from decades ago. Why bother worrying about players whose case is a few pro bowls and one all pro selection where clearly they are never getting elected, I just don’t see the point or worthwhile effort. As I said repeatedly the true mistakes are the players that clearly should be on list and ensure they are included
Youre right Paul but its a preliminary list, so at least if there are more players on it, the less likely someone will be forgotten or left out, like Leslie O Neil nearly was …
How do you leave off Asante Samuel when the guy had nearly 60 career interceptions, counting postseason, and ten return TDs and two championships ?
Samuel is an example of what I am taking about, needs effort to make sure he’s on the list . Plenty of others like examples I posted earlier don’t warrant the effort
Thanks for mentioning LT Richmond Webb, Paul. Tony Bosselli dominates the discussion. As I’ve said before, Bruce Smith said he was the best he ever went up against. A pretty solid endorsement to have. for Webb. He was a great player from Texas A&M.
Webb is one of those players whose omission in the discussion and any advancement in the election process is an odd one to me, just seems like OL who are not first team all decade team members, get lost and not much serious consideration and that includes 2nd team OL
That’s the thing about Matt Light … he should have had more accolades but NE’s offensive linemen never get enough credit. Somebody had to block for Tom Brady to be almost everybody’s GOAT. Especially, his blind side, while Mankins was a mauler at guard.
Light played in five SBs with three championships, blocking well for the Patriot running backs as well but cant make a preliminary list ? Webb like Tarik Glenn, were outstanding pass blockers but so-so run blocking, though Glenn did help James win three rushing titles. All three have cases, but offensive linemen will never get their due.
The San Diego Chargers of the early 80s had at least three Hall eligible linemen but like Jacoby, Kenn, Kunz, Young, Gray and others, just cant get any momentum.
This a post from a poster named RickD on FinHeaven.com and he might be right. People were actually arguing at the time Bruce Smith didn’t deserve to be on 1st ballot. lol One poster stated Webb owned Smith. Not sure that’s entirely accurate. Webb had the look at 6’6″ 325 lbs of an all-world talent. He stuck out like a sore thumb. lol
Jan 31, 2009
I’m the biggest dolphin fan there is, but I have to tell you that Bruce Smith was absolutely a first ballot hall of fame player and Richmond Webb absolutely is not a hall of fame player. Webb was a little on the overrated side. Dan Marino made him, and everyone else on the offensive line for that matter, look better than they actually were. Richmond Webb was better than average in pass protection and looked week and sometimes lazy as a run blocker. Webb was a good player, not a great player.
I wonder, with the speed of the game if Teams run to the outside much to where a Tackle can be that impressive in run blocking?
As some of y’all know, I like to say 1,000 rushing yards was the gold standard when their were 14 game seasons. That averages out to be 71.43 yards a game. lol Since 1978, when they went to 16 game seasons until the year 2002 guess how many Miami Dolphin running backs met that standard? One!!! In 1978! LMBO, 23 years of not meeting the standard by an organization that built it’s fame on having one of the best running games in the history of football. It was just a blip. :) Only 4 Dolphin players: Csonka, Delvin Williams, Ricky Williams and Jay Ajayi have met that standard in 54 years of football. The Dolphins have to be close to having the record for futility in running the football over there NFL existence.
Does the NFL really need a 17th game? It would make Miami’s “undefeated season” look near untouchable.
Ron Borges did a great article about the upcoming CBA vote on Talkoffamenetwork/Maven.
The Players need to take all the time they need to make sure they read the fine print and understand what the owners are doing with this agreement.
Yes, another game and two postseason games … another excuse to expand the season till March
The mess that is Thursday Night Football stays …
The players will gain as much as 225 million dollars in extra revenue, especially for young, struggling players but its a pittance compared to the billions coming in from the renegotiated tv and streaming deals. The players need to be in on these negotiations !!
Borges also pointed out split contracts, where players get the value only if they stay healthy and play … injury or inactive, lowers the contract significantly …
Older players will get screwed on their pension/retirement benefits as well, because the owners want to lower the premiums based on what social security benefits, the player receives …
Pure bullshit …
Still no guaranteed contracts, because the players cant even stay motivated when signing free agent deals, which is why the owners will still have the franchise tags …
Meet the new deal … same as the old deal … unless the players say No … but they wont strike because too many players need the money, like poor people needing Walmart
The NFL does not need a 17th game. That is cash grab by the owners and these are the same people that wanted 18 regular season games a few years ago. The only thing this would do is increase the amount of players each team has and devalue stats and the attempt to increase profits. The NFL is the same league that right now is starting to realize that having 2 NFL teams in LA is a bad idea with the attendance problems for the Chargers.
A lot of greed all the way around concerning the golden goose that is the NFL. With the amount of players and nature of the sport I understand not wanting to give guaranteed contracts. Some of the upper echelon players are getting large guarantees now. Maybe they should set a NFL rule that all players on multi-year contracts get a set guarantee like 2 years. One year for the year they might get injured and another year to look for another job if they need to. I’m not feeling sorry for these guys. They make more money than most of us can dream to in a year. Just because you’re an NFL player doesn’t mean you should be set up financially for life. They can purchase an insurance policy if they’re worried about future income not being enough.
It was easy to see that two teams in LA wasn’t going to work well. More greed! It’s a tough deal when a city doesn’t want to help pay for stadium upgrades or new stadium but as much as the NFL rakes in it seems like they could supplement the owners to make moving less likely. Still all entities must have skin in the game but for the good of the fans and NFL some of these Teams shouldn’t be moving . The Chargers belong in San Diego. San Diego is not Oakland. I remember when their was talk of the Vikings moving to San Antonio. That would of really sucked as a fan of the NFL and it’s history. This is a secure League it’s not the early days, fans should be secure with their teams. Just my unrealistic opinion. lol
I thought I heard the NFL players used to have a greater percentage of revenue than the Owners but they gave it up for other concessions? I understand we are talking about entertainment and what the players bring to the table but I still have a problem with the athletes thinking they have so much power they can dictate their pay based on the employer’s bottom line. They are well compensated. What about the price of a ticket for a fan?
It’s still a game and I can get used to a new set of players. Plenty of guys would jump at the chance to replace them. It’s not like picking up garbage at the curb. lol For example I’m liking the XFL just fine. As long as there are a few familiar faces I’m fine. :) The NFL Players would do good to remember that. This isn’t 1987 where you had a bunch of unwatchable scab players.
Going to be hard for players to turn down a deal when 60% of members make minimum salaries that will see huge increases, 4 yr career average players would see $100,000s more in that career. At end of day labor contract negotiations often come down to $$$$ and NFL
NFLPA deal is same, even more so given short careers and opportunity for minimum salary career of 4 yr having chance at life changing millions in earnings that most people including former players would otherwise never see
Interesting you mentioned those futile years the Dolphins had running the football TonyP … Shula and Johnson liked a running committee approach, that helps explain why they hardly ever had 1000 yrd backs … When Csonka did it, Mercury Morris was close as well. I also thought Jabbar went over too but maybe not.
When motivated, Ricky Williams ran like Earl Campbell … he had HOF talent. Its ironic that he had never suffered injury until he hurt his ankle against the Dolphins, in the preseason his rookie year with the Saints. His contract was loaded with performance incentives but he didnt even reach 1000 yards that season. For some reason, he was distracted in New Orleans but ran with passion for the Dolphins until weed and white girls made him quit the team. He was lucky they let him back and remotivated himself, to finish his career strong.
I felt he was better with the Ravens than their starter, Ray Rice, before retiring. If Evans catches the TD pass against NE in the 2011/12 AFC Championship, Williams might have played in a SB.
His career could have been better but he still ran with purpose. Its too bad he wont make the Hall.
Ya, running by committee usually means you don’t have anyone really good. lol If you have three RB’s you don’t have one. Not always like you say with Csonka, Kiick and Morris. San Fran had a real good three headed running game this year. If a Team’s philosophy is to run most go that direction without a dominate player at the position. I’d still rather have one stud like Derrick Henry than 3 average RB’s although I see some advantage to keeping them guessing. Dan Reeves’ Broncos made it work but they always paid a price in the end. New England is an exception. Belichek gets each player to fill a role so well and he has a knack of knowing which player to lean on in a specific game. He keeps the other side guessing.
I don’t remember too much running by committee for the Dolphins after the 70’s. They just couldn’t find a great RB. Jabber was pretty decent and well remembered for being the 1st Dolphin to gain a 1,000 yards after about 20 years of futility. Bernie Parmelee did some nice things. Higgs is forgettable. Tony Nathan was a jack knife and fun to watch. Ricky Williams was a stud. In a different time he could of led Miami somewhere. But the window was small just like his focus on football. His comeback was admirable and pushes him near the HOF fence. lol
I don’t get the impression that Jimmy Johnson liked RB by committee. I remember a FB Moose who rarely carried the ball and Emmitt Smith. I couldn’t tell you the name of another Cowboy RB . In Miami he had to win with what he had. It was Marino or bust. He tried to fix the running game but drafting RB’s , 5’9″ John Avery and 5’10” Karim Jabbar both under 200 lbs isn’t going to leave you much choice. Pickings in the Draft at RB during his time in Miami were slim. Not his fault. At Marino’s age while still showing flashes he needed a Terrell Davis to do anything big.
What I was describing before is that 71.43 yards is the pace over 16 games I want to see to spell excellence. When runners back in the day got a !,000 yards it felt like a real accomplishment. I want to see 1,142 yards in a season. :) a 1,000 hasn’t meant what it used to for a long time. Someone gets 1,006 yards I’m like big whoopie. I know I’m a tough grader. LOL And get off my lawn. :)
Jimmy wanted a dominant runner but the line just wasn’t good enough …
I always wonder what David Overstreet might have done if he hadn’t died … he had talent and Nathan was very versatile … Franklin had size but wasnt used a lot …
Here’s a what if, Jimmy Johnson’s Dolphins get Eddie George in the Draft to pound the ball. Oh well, glad the voters didn’t hold Miami years against Jimmy. He still did pretty good.
That would have been cool … but Houstons line with Matthews and Stepnoski was better …
Bill Parcells made a huge mistake drafting Julio Jones over Steven Jackson in 04 I think … could you imagine Jackson running behind Flozell Adams and Larry Allen ?
Marshall Yanda just retired. Is he a HOFamer?
Yanda has a very good argument, but it is always tough for guards
Marshal Yanda might need the Senior Committee to get in or wait for a while, Steve Wisniewski and Alan Faneca are not inducted into the Hall of Fame yet with them as guards also.
One would would think a resume like Yanda’s would mean no chance for the need for the Senior Committee, but Guards and safeties are traditionally very hard positions to get inducted into the Hall of Fame.
Steve Wisniewski has the same amount of pro bowls and 1st team all pro teams as Yanda does and to top it off, Steve was named on the 1990s all decade team. Steve is a pretty big omission for not being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Alan Faneca made the pro bowl 9 times, made the all pro first team 6 times and the 2000s all decade team besides his 2 Super Bowl Rings. I’m bringing up Faneca because he has 1 more pro bowl and 4 more all pro first teams than Yanda. Since Faneca has been eligible since 2016, there is not reason for him taking this long to get inducted outside of him being a guard. Based on how long Faneca is waiting for getting inducted, that does not speak well for Yanda.
From 1967 – 1986 there were no Guards inducted into the HOF. Gene Upshaw broke the drought.
G’s – Gene Upshaw, John Hannah, Larry Allen, Bruce Matthews – 1st Ballot HOFers. G Larry Little 5 PB 5 AP 7th year eligible HOF. I don’t consider Faneca with the same greatness as those four. Faneca should happen very soon though.
Steve Hutchinson 7/5 may of gotten more shine because of who he blocked for in Adrian Peterson and Shaun Alexander. Do we think he was better than 9/6 Faneca?
I always wonder about HOF players who were never, not one time viewed as the best at their position in their conference. For example T Winston Hill 8/0. I know he played for a famous Jets team but I never supported him. Right or wrong I looked at the fact Joe Namath could never stay healthy. Probably wrong! lol
Good examples of All Pro not telling the story of a player’s excellence: Roger Staubach 6/0, John Elway 9/0, Warren Moon 9/0, Troy Aikman 6/0, Andre Reed 7/0 and Tim Brown 9/0. I don’t think anyone would question these are HOF players. I believe what this shows is the skill positions more than other can be void of AP’s and still give a highly qualified player for the HOF. Or is it we put a premium on putting those positions in the Hall so we accept a little less? Whatever, it’s real. The great Michael Irvin was only an All -Pro one time at 5/1. One exception to the rule would be the great Dick LeBeau 3/0 who has neither AP’s or very many PB’s. Funny how as time fades the memory, less appears to be more acceptable. Too bad. No, I’m not going to mention his name. lol Mr. 2/2. At least he was viewed as the best at his position a couple times. :)
Looking at the history of OT I do see other players at the position who never made All-Pro and since I would never say Jackie Slater 7/0 wasn’t a great player ; I feel a little better about Winston Hill. :)
We have four HOF inductees without All Pro selections : Issac Bruce, Harold Carmichael, Winston Hill and Ed Sprinkle. Not sure if AP meant as much as PB in Sprinkle’s day? Three of the four I didn’t support for the HOF. And I would of made Bruce wait longer. I’d like to see Broncos WR Rod Smith 3/0 in soon but won’t happen.
Also would like to see TE Riley Odoms 4/2 one of the best in the 70’s get strong consideration as a Senior. IMO he was Dave Casper’s equal for rival Broncos.
I misspoke, I meant to write, not best one time in the “League” not conference.
As tempting as it is to want to make a HOF selection as black and white as possible, I’ve had to remind myself it’s not so. There are many publications with differing views of a player’s performance. Some see as a All Pro season some not plus their are 2nd Team All Pro spots that can’t be disregarded.
Great comments TonyP …
All Pro awards are great but not everyone gets them. Postseason success stays in peoples minds longer.
Yes Namath got hurt, but remember, coming out of college, the NY team doctors thought his right knee could only hold up for four years. I would say he played beyond expectations. One injury was a cheap shot from Detroit linebacker Mike Lucci in the 71 preseason, after an interception. Its amazing how many problems Joe had in preseasons, rather than regular seasons, yet people at that time complained about him missing PRESEASON games.
With Hill in the lineup, Namath was hardly ever sacked, only around 20 times a year his first seven seasons. With Snell, Boozer and Riggins, the Jets should have ran the ball more but Namath like Marino with Miami, liked to attack the defence. His Interceptions were from too much confidence in his ability, like Favre as well.
Yanda will get in, but may have to wait. Its rare for a guard to get in first ballot but we will see.
Brian, Thanks for perspective on Hill and Namath I didn’t know. Randall McDaniel 7/12 wasn’t a 1st ballot HOFer so they don’t mind Guards waiting. I doubt any other position would wait with that profile. Might have to research. lol
sorry i’m not consistent 12/7. :)
You’re okay TonyP …
That’s why it took Hill so long to make the HOF
Hill was never an All-Pro … Tyrer, Brown, Shell or Yary, got those spots …
Namath was known for injuries, even though he wasn’t hit much … especially after Lucci damaged his left knee in the 71 preseason …
Namath had a fast release of the football, which is another reason why his line didn’t get enough credit, but his quick release also resulted in interceptions because he didn’t take sacks …
Hill also was known to hold a lot but I didn’t see it.
Hell, every lineman holds, but with Namath, I don’t blame him.
The Jets were not known to run the ball but like Belichick’s Patriots, they were effective when they did.
I am glad Hill was elected. I would have taken Jacoby or Kenn over Covert but Hilgenberg of the Bears deserves attention also.
I like Jay Hilgenberg ans Olin Kreutz to get attention from the HOF. But I think Steve Wisniewski and Senior George Kunz are the ones who have been really overlooked.
I like to think that the delay on Fanaca has been the logjam with Hutchinson (also Guard) and Boselli, and all indications are that Fanaca is set for election in 2021. And his election should also clear path for other Guards, especially those with multiple all pro and/or all decade team accomplishments still on modern ballot, but especially the soon to be announced 2010s all decade team Guards (Yanda and Martin??). Like Safety, the Guard position has a terrible legacy of poor treatment by the voters which I hope is finally changing.
Youre right Bill …
At Guard, Budde and Sweeney are the biggest snubs …
Centers including Macek and Dalby, Donaldson and Stepnoski.
I agree Paul, it’s pretty bad legacy for Guards.
I don’t support Donaldson, Dalby or Macek. Olin Kreutz and Jay Hilgenberg are Centers I’d support. Stepnoski is a closer call for me but no issue if he makes it.
Sweeney and Budde I don’t strongly support but certainly no issue if they make it. Heck, the whole Chiefs Team will be in the HOF before long. lol Deservingly so as one of the all-time great teams in NFL history. So glad they got well deserved attention this year. I guess the Committee figures if they let Tyrer in than truly they must let anyone in? If OJ’s there so should Tyrer and who’s to say CTE wasn’t involved? I hope they put him in soon. Actually I think they missed a good opportunity to slip him in this year. I’m sure there’ll be media backlash when it happens. Hopefully most football fans would support.
Thinking of Chicago Bears, they definitely picked the wrong 2/2 with Jimbo Covert. The 2/2 I could of gotten behind was Steve “Mongo” McMichael with his 95 sacks at DT/NT. Lots of great Bears on that D but he’s the one I think about most. He was a beast, look at the number of tackles he was in on from the DT position. A motor that wouldn’t quit and got better with age. Looking at the stats I don’t know why Dan Hampton 4/1 was viewed as the better player? I think McMichael looked to scary with that long hair to be endeared by the media. LOL They like the Howie Long look not the Gastineau look. Of course I’m kidding but hey? LOL
Steve McMichael is a perfect example of how a player who does not receive proper Pro Bowl and(or) ALL-Pro accolades does not often receive the proper attention from HOF committees. He should at the very least been 5 Pro Bowl and 3 All-Pro nods…could argue 4, including a year when Dan Hampton received a Pro Bowl berth that should have gone to McMichael, who had the better year.
Due to the Bolognavirus, some of my work shifts got cancelled, due to group cancellations, so I obviously have some free time on my hands …
Since a lot of us are discussing Offensive Linemen who have cases for the HOF and its been historically, an underrepresented group in the Hall, I wanted to list the number of players who are, or maybe Hall eligible, who have had at least six selections throughout their career.
I have to do more research on All-Pro selections from various sources and welcome any added, to this post by loyal commentators …
I basically used Pro Football-Reference.com as my source for these pro bowl selections and may be off between three and eight players, due to not knowing if they are Hall eligible, or not credited correctly for their selections. Please correct me if I am wrong or the players that are missing …
9 or more selections … Hall Eligible
OT Jim Tyrer
OG Walt Sweeney
OG Alan Faneca
OG Ruben Brown
8 selections …
OT George Kunz
OG Steve Wisniewski
7 selections …
OG Ed Budde
OC Jon Morris
OT Lomas Brown
OC Jay Hilgenberg
OT Chris Hinton
OT Richmond Webb
OG Logan Mankins
OC Nick Mangold (Eligible ? )
Six selections (Cut Off )
OT Grady Alderman
OG Bob Talamini
OT Dick Schafrath
OG Ken Gray
OG John Niland
OG Bob Kuechenberg
G/C Dennis Harrah
OG Doug Smith
OC Rich Saul
OT Bruce Armstrong
OC Ray Donaldson
OG Nate Newton
G/C Matt Birk
OC Olin Kreutz
There are many more great linemen with four or more selections, who I believe have HOF cases, but in fairness, I just wanted to concentrate on the players with at least six, though after 1990, the selection process went more away from players or coaches choices, to fan/voting choices …
Perhaps another criteria: at least one first or second team all pro selection, has any OL ever been elected without one? Would give you indication that candidate without it is unlikely to ever be elected
You’re right Paul …
Pro Football Journal might be the best source for various All-Pro selections, but I have to research their site for a complete list … also with these Pro Bowl selections, you wonder if some were alternates for many who chose not to participate but Pro Reference, I think tries to just mention selections …
Another player I missed was Jeff Saturday with six nominations I think … I still cant believe that Don Macek and Kent Hull at center didnt have more nominations … the early 80s Charger offence and early 90s Buffalo offence was … AWESOME …
Jeff Van Note C falcons had a profile of 6/0. Mangold and Mankins are not yet eligible.
I forgot Chris Samuels of the Redskins as well …
I tried to just look up the players rather than using the HOF Index, which is very subjective but I may use the index in compiling linemen with All-Pro recognitions …
You’re right Paul and TonyP …
Jackie Slater and Winston Hill are the only linemen so far, to make the Hall with no major All-Pro designation … Doesn’t bode well for Stepnoski.
Yea unfortunately I think history and trends of voting, and resulting current PFHOFers remains pretty good indication of chances for others
Stepnoski made All Pro for other publications outside of AP for 3 years and 2nd Team All Pro in a 4th year. I would consider that if I was judging him. It’s the Players without All Pro status or any other All Pro credentials that I would be dismissive with. Stepnoski was an impressive player and I could see him being selected one day as I could Bob Kuechenberg. Right or wrong when we get to OL players without stellar accolades, I like for them to be from winning cultures.
I support: Nate Newton, Dennis Harrah, Matt Birk, Bob Kuechenberg, Mark Stepnoski, Olin Kreutz,
These don’t make the grade for me: Doug Smith, Rich Saul, Ray Donaldson, John Niland, Bruce Armstrong and Jeff Van Note.
I don’t know the rest of the 6 PB players well enough. I can’t imagine a case where I’d support a player with less the 5 PB’s to the HOf.
I think the Pro Football Reference’s HOF Monitor is kind of whack. According to that Torry Holt 7/1 has over a 100% chance of being in the HOF and Fred Biletnikoff 6/2 had a 75% chance. Why the meter has Drew Pearson ahead of Cliff Branch I haven’t a clue when Branch has higher everything. Even Harold Jackson is ahead of Branch. Of course Harold Carmichael is low at 70% which is now 100 %. LOL My guy Mark Clayton is at 45% with his 84 TD’s and 1 more Pro Bowl than Carmichael.
Looks like Jimbo Covert is the lowest AV in the HOF since Gayle Sayers and the only lower is Paul Hornung. Covert must have some impressive film? I strongly doubt it’s better than Tony Boselli.
Tops on the HOF G Meter to get in are Steve Wisniewski 76%, Bob Kuechenberg 65%, Nate Newton 62%, Brian Waters 54%, Walt Sweeney, 53%, John Niland 53%. Ruben Brown 51%, Guy McIntyre 50% and Ed Budde 50%. Jerry Kramer had a 115% chance of making the HOF. LMBO! Bet it didn’t feel like it after waiting 50 years. :)
The eligible players with a weighted AV of 100 or more not in the HOF are:
QB’s – John Hadl 6/1, Ken Anderson 4/1, Boomer Esiason 4/1, Drew Bledsoe 4/0 Steve McNair 3/0, Randall Cunningham 4/1 and Donavon McNabb 6/0.
RB’s – Ricky Watters 5/0
WR’s – Rod Smith 3/0 and Jimmy Smith 5/0
TE’s – No player has ever had a value of 100.
C – Jeff Saturday 6/2 and Tom Nalen 5/2,
G – Alan Faneca 9/6 and Steve Wisnieski 8/2
T – None. Jim Tyrer has a 99% chance of making HOF. The 1% feels big.
DE – None. Ron McDole 2/1, Jim Marshall 2/0, Ed Too Tall Jones 3/1, Justin Smith 5/1, John Abraham 5/2, Neil Smith 6/1 and Richard Seymour 7/3 are in the 90’s. They have JJ Watt 5/5 at a 104% chance.
DT – None. Kevin Williams 6/5 and Steve McMichael 2/2 are at a 99 AV .
ILB – Zach Thomas 7/5, London Fletcher 4/0 and Sam Mills 5/1.
OLB – Isiah Robertson
DB – Ronde Barber 5/3. The highest AV not in the HOF are Cornell Green 5/3, Eric Allen 6/1 and Bobby Boyd 2/3. They say Leroy Butler, Bobby Boyd, Ronde Barber, Lester Hayes, David Grayson all have a greater than 80% chance. Way down the list sticking out like a sore thumb with a 47% chance of making the HOF are Dick LeBeau and Emmitt Thomas. I tell you there was some monkey business to get those guys in when they did. All the while Johnny Robinson with his 96% chance sat waiting an extra 10 years.
K – The kicker with the highest AV is Nick Lowery at 55. Morten Anderson 51 and Jan Stenerud 54 are in the HOF. Don Cockroft is at 54, Gary Anderson and Jim Bakken are at 50. Adam Vinatiera is a 46. I don’t get these values at all for the Kickers.
P – Shane Lechler 7/6 will be a HOF punter if there’s justice. Other top candidates are Sean Landeta, Don Chandler and Jerrell Wilson.
According to their HOF Meter, the top 3 sure bets of all were Jerry Rice at 311%, Peyton Manning at 258% and Reggie White at 238%. Tom Brady is 4th and shouldn’t have a problem. LOL
I guess I goofed. Their are few like Steve McMichael with less than 5PB’s I’d support but I think that’s really rare. I don’t support Dick Anderson 3/2 although I’d be thrilled if he made HOF. I don’t support Joe Jacoby 4/3. I have said I supported Harvey Martin 4/1. There were some really great DE’s I’m sure he lost out to for AP and even a PB or two. He was one of the best pass rushers I’ve seen. He should join his teammate Randy White in the HOF. Dan Hampton 4/1 82 sacks and Howie Long 4/1 84 sacks were both great players. Harvey Martin 4/1 114 sacks. All won a Super Bowl. Martin SB co-MVP. 23 sacks in a 14 game season. There must be some Cowboy hating going on.
Maybe they don’t like the fact he didn’t start right away? I think that was a little common back in the day with Tom Landry’s Defense?? I think Lilly was still playing.
Tom Nalen should get in because he was excellent for years … he was punished because Denver kept switching their running backs and even after Davis retired, Denver still kept running the ball down peoples throats …
You’re right on Harvey Martin, but George Andrie and Ed Jones had great careers as well … It took forever for Too Tall to pass 100 sacks but over 100 tipped passes and stopping the run, not to mention the interceptions he caused, was impressive.
I hope Dick Anderson makes the Hall as well … he was excellent before Don Shula came to the team and was clutch in postseason. He never gave up cheap TDs and was great on interception returns …
Boomer Esiason could throw the ball well but wont make the Hall … just never won enough.
Warren Moon I believe, is the last sub 500 QB to make it …
As someone I watched a lot, Ed Too Tall Jones never felt like a HOFer just very good and consistent much like Harold Carmichael. I’m glad he didn’t stick with the boxing. lol
That’s the thing, it’s easy to get caught up thinking about a lengthy productive career and want to apply to being HOF worthy. I can go by stats and eye test/memory to rule out a player but the ones I didn’t see much of who have borderline accolades are tough to say much about. I didn’t see George Andrie play enough.
The players I suppose I know best are from he NFC East Division and the AFC Central because of watching so many Cowboys and Oilers games living in central Texas for since 1969. Drew Pearson passed the eye test. Ken Anderson did not. Larry Brown passed the eye test. LC Greenwood passed the eye test . Ray Childress passed.
One thing I found odd was how low Tommy Nobis’ weighted AV was at 54. There might be something bringing his status as HOF candidate down we aren’t seeing? I see he didn’t have any standout years just consistently decent. Also they don’t have all the stat categories for the older players. Not sure.
This is a good resource for sacks year by year by a poster named Wastech. Might want to copy. Any names here stick out as potential HOFers? Looks like George Andrie was quite the player.
1981
Joe Klecko, Jets20.5Turney/Team/ToppsAFC Leader
Mark Gastineau, Jets20.0Turney/Team/Topps
Fred Dean,49ers/Chargers13.0 Turney/Topps (12 with SF, 1 with SD)
Jack Youngblood, Rams12.5Turney/Team (11 on Topps)NFC Leader (tie)
Curtis Greer, Cardinals12.5Turney/Team/Topps NFC Leader (tie)
Jacob Green, Seahawks12.0Team/Topps
Dave Puriefory, Lions12.0Team (11 on Topps)
George Martin, Giants11.0Topps
Reggie Williams, Bengals11.0Topps
Mike Butler, Packers10.5Team/Topps
Jesse Baker, Oilers10.0Topps
Gary Johnson, Chargers10.0Topps
Rod Martin, Raiders10.0Topps
Al Richardson, Falcons10.0Team (10.5 on Topps)
1980
Gary Johnson, Chargers17.5Turney (17 on Topps)AFC Leader
Al Baker, Lions17.0Turney (18 on Team/Topps)NFC Leader
Joel Williams, Falcons16.0Turney/Team/Topps
Claude Humphrey, Eagles14.5Topps
Art Still, Chiefs14.5Team/Topps
Eddie Edwards, Bengals12.0Topps
Harvey Martin, Cowboys12.0Turney/Topps
Ben Williams, Bills12.0Turney (11 on Topps)
Mark Gastineau, Jets11.5Topps
Dan Hampton, Bears11.5Topps/Team
Rulon Jones, Broncos11.5Topps
Jack Youngblood, Rams11.5Team (11 on Topps)
Coy Bacon, Redskins11.0Topps
Gary Jeter, Giants10.0Topps
Mike Butler, Packers9.0(10.5 on Topps)
1979
Jack Youngblood, Rams18.0Turney/Team (16 on Topps)NFC Leader
Al Baker, Lions16.0Team/Topps
Jesse Baker, Oilers15.5ToppsAFC Leader
Coy Bacon, Redskins15.0Topps
Carl Hairston, Eagles15.0Topps
Wilbur Young, Chargers12.5Topps
Elois Grooms, Saints12.0Topps
Don Reese, Saints12.0Topps
Jerry Sherk, Browns12.0Team/Topps
Fred Cook, Colts11.0Topps
George Martin, Giants11.0Topps
Lee Roy Selmon, Buccaneers11.0Team/Topps
Jim Osborne, Bears10.5Team/Topps
Tony McGee, Patriots10.5 Team (11.5 Topps)
Willie Jones, Raiders10.0Topps
1978 (season extended to 16 games)
Al Baker, Lions23.0Turney/Team/ToppsNFC Leader
Ezra Johnson, Packers20.5Team/Topps
Randy White, Cowboys16.0Turney/Topps
Fred Dean, Chargers15.5ToppsAFC Leader
Harvey Martin, Cowboys14.5Turney (16 on Topps)
Cedric Hardman, 49ers13.0Topps
Coy Bacon, Redskins12.0Topps
Tony McGee, Patriots11.5Team/Topps
Alan Page, Bears11.5Team/Topps
Lee Roy Selmon, Buccaneers11.0Team/Topps
George Martin, Giants10.0Topps
Greg Brezina, Falcons9.0Team (10 on Topps)
1977
Harvey Martin, Cowboys20.0Turney (23 on Topps)NFC Leader
Cleveland Elam, 49ers17.5Turney (18.5 on Topps)
Carl Eller, Vikings15.0Turney/Team (14 on Topps)
Pat Toomay, Raiders14.5TurneyAFC Leader
Gary Johnson, Chargers13.5Turney/Topps
Tony McGee, Patriots13.5Turney?/Topps (12 team)
Lee Roy Selmon, Buccaneers13.0Team (12.5 on Topps)
Randy White, Cowboys12.5Turney
John Mendenhall, Giants12.0Topps
Lem Burnham, Eagles10.0Topps
Dennis Johnson, Redskins10.0Topps
Mack Mitchell, Browns10.0Topps
Jeff Merrow, Falcons10.0Team
Claude Humphrey, Falcons10.0Team
1976
Coy Bacon, Bengals21.5Turney (26 on Topps)AFC Leader
Alan Page, Vikings18.0Turney/TeamNFC Leader
Claude Humphrey,Falcons15.0Team
Jim Osborne, Bears15.0Team
Harvey Martin, Cowboys14.5Turney
Jack Youngblood, Rams14.5Team
Larry Brooks, Rams14.5Team
John Dutton, Colts13.0Turney
Fred Cook, Colts11.0Turney
Joe Ehrmann, Colts11.0Turney
1975
John Dutton, Colts17.0TurneyAFC Leader
Jack Youngblood, Rams15.0TeamNFC Leader
Wally Chambers, Bears14.0Team
Alan Page, Vikings13.0Team
Dave Puriefory, Packers11.0Team
Vern Den Herder, Dolphins11.0Team
John Zook, Falcons10.0Team
1974
Jack Youngblood, Rams15.0Turney/Team
Fred Dryer, Rams15.0Turney
Lyle Alzado, Broncos13.0Turney
Ron Carpenter, Bengals13.0Turney
Claude Humphrey, Falcons12.5Team
Ernie Holmes, Steelers11.5Team
L.C. Greenwood, Steelers11.0Turney
Alan Page, Vikings11.0Team
1973
Bill Stanfill, Dolphins18.5Turney
Jack Youngblood, Rams16.5Team
Carl Eller, Vikings11.0Team
Larry Hand, Lions11.0Team
Pat Toomay, Cowboys10.5Turney
Claude Humphrey, Falcons10.0Team
Jim Osborne, Bears10.0Team
1972
Jack Gregory, Giants18.5Turney
Joe Greene, Steelers12.0Turney (11 on Team)
Coy Bacon, Rams11.5Team
Vern Den Herder, Dolphins10.5Team
1971
Cedric Hardman, 49ers18.0Turney
Jethro Pugh, Cowboys13.5Turney
Claude Humphrey, Falcons12.0Team
Coy Bacon, Rams11.0Team
1970
Tony Cline, Raiders17.5Turney
Jack Gregory, Browns14.0Team
Jethro Pugh, Cowboys13.5Turney
Carl Eller, Vikings13.0Team
Deacon Jones, Rams12.0Team
Willie Holman, Bears12.0Team
1969 (NFL)
Carl Eller, Vikings15.0Turney/Team
Deacon Jones, Rams15.0Team
Jethro Pugh, Cowboys13.0Turney
Larry Cole, Cowboys12.5Turney
George Andrie Cowboys11.5Turney
1969 (AFL)
Steve DeLong, Chargers15.5Turney
1968 (NFL)
Deacon Jones, Rams22.0Turney/Team
Jethro Pugh, Cowboys15.5Turney
Bob Lilly, Cowboys12.5Turney
Claude Humphrey, Falcons11.5Team
Alan Page, Vikings11.0Team
George Andrie, Cowboys10.0Turney
1968 (AFL)
Mel Branch, Dolphins11.0Team
1967 (NFL)
Deacon Jones, Rams21.0Turney/Team
George Andrie, Cowboys11.5
1967 (AFL)
Ike Lassiter, Raiders17.0
Dan Birdwell, Raiders14.5
1966 (NFL)
George Andrie, Cowboys18.5Turney
Deacon Jones, Rams18.0Team
Bob Lilly, Cowboys15.0
1965 (NFL)
Deacon Jones, Rams18.0Turney (19 on Team)
George Andrie, Cowboys14.5
Bill Glass, Browns14.5 Team
1964 (NFL)
Deacon Jones, Rams22.0Turney/Team
George Andrie, Cowboys12.5Turney
Jim Marshall, Vikings11.5Team
Bob Lilly, Cowboys10.5Turney
1963 (NFL)
Jim Katcavage, Giants?20.0Turney
Don Hultz, Vikings10.5 Team
Jim Marshall, Vikings10.5Team
1962 (NFL)
Jim Katcavage, Giants16.0
Deacon Jones, Rams12.0
1961 (NFL)
Gene Lipscomb, ???17.5 or 18.0
Lamar Lundy, Rams11.0
*** THE 20 SACK CLUB ***
Al Baker, Lions (1978)23.0
Michael Strahan, Giants (2001)22.5
Deacon Jones, Rams (1964)22.0
Deacon Jones,Rams (1968)22.0
Mark Gastineau, Jets (1984)22.0
Jared Allen, Vikings (2011)22.0
Coy Bacon, Bengals (1976)21.5
Deacon Jones, Rams (1967)21.0
Reggie White, Eagles (1987)21.0
Chris Doleman, Vikings (1989)21.0
Ezra Johnson, Packers (1978)20.5
Joe Klecko, Jets (1981)20.5
Lawrence Taylor, Giants (1986)20.5
J.J. Watt, Texans (2012)20.5
Harvey Martin, Cowboys (1977)20.0
Mark Gastineau, Jets (1981)20.0
Derrick Thomas, Chiefs (1990)20.0
DeMarcus Ware, Cowboys (2008)20.0
FALCONS WEBSITE – Only lists top 3, goes to 15, appears to be historic (pre 1982), does have yearly leaders dating back to 1960s.
BILLS WEBSITE – useless
COLTS WEBSITE – useless
RAMS WEBSITE – Has yearly leaders
JETS WEBSITE – Minimal, only top 3 single seasons (Gastineau, Klecko)
VIKINGS WEBSITE – Yearly leaders
STEELERS WEBSITE – Yearly leaders from 1972
BEARS WEBSITE – Yearly leaders from 1970
REDSKINS WEBSITE – useless, only sacks 1982+
49ers WEBSITE – useless, only sacks 1982+
GIANTS WEBSITE – useless, only sacks 1982+
BUCCANEERS WEBSITE – has yearly and record holders, excellent from 1976
SEAHAWKS WEBSITE – has yearly and record holders, excellent from 1976
PACKERS WEBSITE – has yearly leaders since 1972
LIONS WEBSITE – yearly leaders since 1973
EAGLES WEBSITE – useless, only sacks 1982+
SAINTS WEBSITE – useless, only sacks 1982+
CARDINALS WEBSITE – yearly leaders since 1970
DOLPHINS WEBSITE – has players with 10.5 or more back to 1968
PATRIOTS WEBSITE – Yearly since 1960
BROWNS WEBSITE – Back to at least 1965, 12 or more
I sure didn’t like the Cowboys growing up but there were players I really respected. I always thought Larry Cole and Jim Jeffcoat were under appreciated. Neither has a Pro Bowl Cole 60 sacks and good against the run and Jeffcoat with 102 sacks and a knack for big play. Both have 2 SB wins under belt.
This is geeky and kind of interesting. http://www.actionreplay.20m.com/ Neat to remember some of the old players.
I watched alot of Cowboys games, and Too Tall would tip passes or be disruptive while White, Martin or free blitzers would get to the QB …
He wont make the Hall, but Gary “Big Hands” Johnson was a great defensive tackle, rushing the passer … though I wanted the Dolphins to beat the 49ers, he played well and deserved a ring.
Still cannot believe the Chargers with a chance to win a SB gave away Dean, Johnson, Jefferson then Brooks !! Owner Klein was an idiot …
As pass rushers … Al Baker, Cedric Hardman, Coy Bacon, Andrie, Pugh, Gastineau, Jacob Green, Jim Katcavage, Gene Brito, all have HOF cases …
Gene Brito would have been a better choice as a pash rusher than Ed Sprinkle …
I’ve never seen the name, Jim Katcavage.
Should you get into the HOF being a great pass rusher and poor everywhere else? I suppose it depends on the time they played? Coy Bacon was not good against the run in a time when many teams were run dominate. I do not support him. Than, I don’t support Dwight Freeney and I know Paul and others do. lol
I like a little more complete player. Jared Allen comes to mind. He had a motor like JJ Watt for all of it, even though he’s remembered for his sacks. Kevin Green the same way. I suppose Richard Dent was more one note Charlie.
Plenty of pass rushing DEs/LBs who were less than great in the run stopping skill, as to Freeney even with his faults it’s really hard to dismiss a 3(2)/7/SB/1st team decade player with 125 sacks (18th all time), not saying first ballot but he’s getting in
Just seeing if you were still around Paul. lol I know your right. :) Has there ever been a 7 PB 3 AP not make it?
Pro Reference says Freeney’s career most equaled in quality and shape to:
Fred Dryer
William Fuller
Greg Cragen
George Andrie
Al Baker
Brandon Mebane
Harvey Martin
LC Greenwood
Claude Humphrey
Jacob Green.
That kind of supports my point that he’s an over valued 7/3. Only Humphrey is in the HOF and I didn’t support him. Martin I admit to being a little sentimental in my support and Greenwood I think is deserving but not for certain. Truthfully other Steelers stood out more for me. I remember he was great for a time though.
I don’t know if they put Freeney in for having one great pass rush move? I suppose one could say that about the Deacon Jones head slap but he was a far more complete player. So you don’t think I’m only about making my point, I will admit seeing at year 11, Freeney is compared to Deacon Jones so there is that. For me that comparison is some weird outlier. It’s the only year they say that.
I found it odd Freeney had 46 forced fumbles which is great but only 4 recovered. Only 4 kind of jives with my thinking that he only hustled for a sack. Jared Allen had 32 and 19 recoveries.
Jared Allen’s stats are more impressive and he stuck around the right amount of time. .
Pretty good for a 4th Rounder I’d say. lol He should be a 1st Ballot HOFer if no log jam.
I have more respect for Richard Seymour’s 7/3 than Freeney’s and I’m on the fence about him being a HOFer. He has only 4 forced fumbles and 8 recoveries along with 57 career sacks.
Freeney’s career weighted AV is 79. The only players in the HOF with a lower total are Leroy Selmon 78 (shorter career), Claude Humphrey 72, Elvin Bethea 65 and Fred Dean with a miserable 59. I didn’t support any of these players so at least I’m consistent. Selmon may of gotten my support if I was into evaluating at the time.
Freeney ‘s AV is tied with Mark Gastineau at 79. Jared Allen is a 99 yet they say Freeney has a better chance of making the HOF. Jared Allen at 64% to Freeney’s 85% that’s whack.
The lowest player that I supported for the HOF is Charles Haley at 84. Richard Seymour is at 90. This Av formula must mirror a guys real life value pretty closely. I’ve never researched the weight AV before this week but most of the ones at the lower end had lots of debate before they made it or were Seniors they slipped in. Haley had his naysayers I remember but the numbers won out much like Richard Dent 4/1 and Kevin Greene. Dent had an AV of 95 and Greene
What I’m seeing more and more of is accolades don’t always tell the story. Sometimes great players don’t get enough. Just depends on the strength of the position at the time. You might be right Brian about more players deserving HOF with lesser accolades.
Here’s a list in order of the top weighted career Approximate Values except QB’s not in the HOF. You would think these are the most HOF worthy.
Reggie Wayne
Jeff Saturday
Zach Thomas
Alan Faneca
Ronde Barber
Steve Wisiewski
Ricky Watters
Rod Smith
Sam Mills
Tom Nalen
Isiah Robertson
Torry Holt
Richmond Webb
Steve McMichael
Pat Swilling
Tiki Barber
Jim Marshall
Wilber Marshall
Eric Allen
Justin Smith
Lance Briggs
Henry Ellard
James Farrior
Hardy Nickerson
Chuck Howley
Lomas Brown
Cornell Green
Mike Kenn
Roger Craig
Neil Smith
Bobby Boyd
Jim Tyrer
Warrick Dunn
Too Tall Jones
Clay Matthews
Greg Lloyd
Karl Mecklenburg
Patrick Willis
Ken Riley
Harold Jackson
Ron McDole
Ted Washington
John Abraham
Lee Roy Jordan
Lydell Mitchell
Mo Lewis
Willie Anderson
Ray Childress
Richard Seymour
All are at or above 90 AV and should be considered as serious candidates IMO on that basis. Probably a few more in the 80’s.
Some deserving players that are below 90 all in the 80’s: Fred Biletnikoff, Roger Wehrli, Jim Langer, Willie Lanier, Larry Wilson, Joe DeLamielleure and Forrest Gregg.
The Senior Committee would do good to look at this evaluation method .It appears they could be making better picks. Johnny Robinson 91 AV and Chris Hanburger 96 AV
Sorry , my support was very weak for Cliff Harris AV 77 for HOF in spite of accolades. I’m not mad about it. lol And most of y’all wouldn’t pick my guy Jake Scott AV 81 so we’re even, LOL except your guy is in the HOF. Maybe mine one day but I’ll probably be dead. : ) I know he will be too, they’re not letting him in alive he might do something crazy unless he’s mellowed?? lol He was a tough S.O.B.
“He played the final 11 games of his rookie year in 1970 with a separated shoulder. The following season, Scott broke his hand in 1971 double-overtime playoff game against Kansas City, then broke his wrist in the Super Bowl. A week later, he played in the Pro Bowl with casts on both hands.Mar 5, 2018”
I haven’t seen a player below AV of 80 I think is a good HOF pick. Jerry Kramer was a 77 and probably a good pick but he might be a little lower because of the number of games he played. I don’t think it was very cut and dry like Johnny Robinson’s case.
Robinson and Hanburger examples of good picks . Too many questionable to want to list but you know the ones.
2 years ago
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/sports-columns/ron-kantowski/jake-scott-super-bowl-forgotten-hero-resurfaces-at-las-vegas-drag-race/
Haven’t heard much about Don Shula for years.
http://www.startribune.com/don-shula-at-90-his-wife-says-he-has-a-beautiful-life/566690951/
Not sure I would place much value or significance to the AVs by PFR, still too much subjective grading and measures used there and the results are so oddly inconsistent in evaluating PFHOFers I am not so sure they really are that helpful. As a secondary tool and interesting read yes, but there are just too many weird results that don’t match up with the known impact and accomplishments of a player, especially pre 2000 when data is limited to been with and film study even more so, to give the scores muh weight in my view.
RIP Del Shofner. Hope you make the HOF some day.
Sorry TonyP, but Freeney is deserving of the Hall.
Despite their small size, the Colts defence had speed and quickness in spades and was built to protect leads.
Until Mathis joined later, Freeney like Ware in Dallas, was the Colts only great player and went after the QB … His quickness, and spin move disrupted a lot of teams, helping their secondary coverage as well. Bob Sanders and Kelvin Hayden had talent for the defence as well but couldn’t stay healthy. The Colts should have won more championships but didnt get it done.
Even after leaving the Colts, Freeney kept his skills till the end but wasnt used enough by his last three teams. I still cant believe Atlanta let him go because he was relentless against GB and NE in the 2016/17 postseason.
Yes, Jared Allen was a great pass rusher but his stats were more quiet because his teams didn’t make the postseason enough …
Freeney, like Mathis, Dean, Ware and Dumervil were smaller players who had great speed and quickness to the QB …
What do you think about Pro Football Reference’s assigning values to players? Do you think it’s accurate enough to use as a tool in player evaluation?
Paul could answer this question better than I can, but though it can be an interesting tool, I dont put too much stock in an “evaluation” that would rate a non receiver like Devin Hester as better than a Dwight Clark, Issac Curtis or Mark Duper … like, really ?
I do a fair amount of work involving data, analytics, scoring, ratings etc…. and can only say that the accuracy / reliability of any such “scoring” is dependent on the data and scoring criteria used. Data is limited by what is available and the scoring/weighting may be sound but is still subjective. I do not have any real problem with the PFJ AV system per se, but it is important not to forget that they are by very nature still a subjective driven system. PFJ provides a good explanation of their methods so that is not the caution, just that users or those looking at the results need to be aware of its limitations. I think they are interesting and helpful, another interesting factor to consider, but would be careful on giving them too much weight in decision-making.
Looks like Tom Brady is going to Tampa Bay …
Brian, I’m thinking Hester should be compared to other Return guys and not WR’s. You might of found a flaw in the system.
I’m still trying to figure out justification for my Texans trading DeAndre Hopkins who IMO is best WR or certainly top 3. I’m shocked. I don’t think Hopkins’ career with the Cardinals will miss a beat on his way to the HOF.
Johnny Unitas finished his career with the Chargers maybe Tom Brady too.
Yeah, the HOF Monitor needs to do KO/PR categories for deserving players … I realize they are adding that to his receiving totals but he is not much of a receiver or defensive back.
Really, I admire the guy and he was exciting but 36 overrall TDs does NOT make a HOF career …
Yeah, not a Bill O Brien fan … Brady made his career and he has sucked as a HC … Hopkins was really all the Texans had to help Watson.
Arizona and Fitzgerald won that trade …
With Brady in TB … haha … going to be interesting to see what players will come in and help him … Freeman, Lewis, Edelman, or Gore ?
I was thinking Justin Smith was a HOF caliber RDT who didn’t play the position for enough years, than I saw how many tackles he made as a DL period. He could be a good HOF candidate . These guys with high motors stand out for me. John Randle had a high motor and Smith’s tackling numbers, if accurate, are more impressive.
Didn’t know about Tampa Bay. Man with Godwin, Evans and stud TE he’s set on Offense. He picked the right Conference IMO but not sure about Bucs for winning it all. I thought the Panthers might be interesting with Cam leaving and having top NFL RB at his disposal. Oh well. He’s going up against Brees and Matty Ice now for Division. Not exactly Miami, Jets and Buffalo.
Some of my “favorite to watch” players for HOF:
Dick Anderson, Bill Stanfill, Jake Scott, Bob Baumhower, Irving Fryer, John Jefferson, Mark Duper, Nat Moore, Mark Van Eagen, Todd Christianson, Harold Jackson, Otis Armstrong, Larry Brown, Jim Hart, Lee Roy Jordan, Isiah Robertson, Jack Hacksaw Reynolds, Cliff Branch, Ray Childress, Lester Hayes, Ricky Upchurch, Harvey Martin, Joe Washington, Neil Smith, Lawrence McCutcheons, James Brooks, Jamal Charles, Priest Holmes, Rod Smith, Corey Dillon, Keith Jackson, Wilbur Montgomery, Billy Sims, Adrian Peterson and Ricky Williams .
Most of these guys won’t get a sniff probably.
Though he wont make the Hall, I always thought James Brooks was the perfect halfback … speed, quickness, inside running toughness, catching ability, he had it all. He had fumbling problems with the Chargers but also made explosive plays, especially on special teams. Another great player the Chargers gave away while being an SB contender.
Corey Dillon was a powerful back who had quickness as well but I loved watching him block, he would hammer people … In Cincinnati, like George with the Titans, everyone knew Dillon was coming …
I have strong support for Dillon. A lot of his yards weren’t easy.
I think before Devin Hester makes the HOF, I’d like to see either Ricky Upchurch 4/3 or Billy White Shoes Johnson 3/1 be in the HOF.
Brian, where did you see Hester had a better AV than Dwight Clark? Hester’s weighted AV is only 49. Clark is 61. Upchurch is 44 and Johnson is 46.
Was looking at Hester’s HOFm number … not his AV number, but its skewed to his special teams numbers …
Personally, I don’t like the PFR AV or HOFn’s …
Lots of high-end mediocrity, especially QBs over most players …
QB numbers are higher by the nature of position ,more than any other. For example, Joe Namath and Ken Stabler at 94, really good for another position, not so good for a HOF QB. But than we see Ken Anderson at 121, some would say he must be a HOFer. But we all know how important the clutch play factor, especially in big games is for a QB. Anderson did not have it and Ken Stabler did.
The two lowest HOF QB’s on the list of 4th quarter comebacks are Roger Staubach “Captain Comeback” hmm and Steve Young at 13. I’ll give you, some of Staubach’s were the most improbable. lol My bad, Kurt Warner only had 7. Colin Kaepernick has 7 . lol Ken Anderson had 10 and Ken Stabler 16.
Kings of the Comebacks prior to 1980 were:
*Johnny Unitas 34
*Fran Tarkington 29
*Y.A. Title 24
John Brodie 21
Charley Johnson 19
*Sonny Jurgensen 18
Darryl Lamonica 18
*Bart Starr 18
*George Blanda 17
Babe Parilli 17
*Norm Van Broclin 17
Roman Gabriel 16
*Bobby Layne 16
*Bob Griese 15
John Hadl 15
*Len Dawson 15
*Joe Namath 15
Charley Conerly 15
Billy Kilmer 15
Earl Morrall 14
Norm Snead 14
Eddie LeBaron 13
Ed Brown 14
*Roger Staubach 13
Jack Kemp 11
Tom Flores 9
*Otto Graham 9
Greg Laundry 8
Don Meredith 8
OMG I just lost all my research I typed. I’ll tell ya! Don’t you hate when you do that?!! Well I was talking about the records within all the comebacks for all QB’s. I had all sorts of good stuff you’ll have to take my word. lol
Brian Sipe and Jake the snake Plummer are tied, each with 7 in a season. Than I discovered Peyton Manning did that in three different seasons. He truly is the King of the regular season. Drew Brees did it in one season. Tarkington had 5 +5 = 10 over two years. Sipe had 11 over two seasons as you would expect from the Cardiac Browns.
Tom Brady has the most Playoff comebacks in the 4th qtr with 9. He’s the King of the Playoffs as you might suspect. Montana is second with 5. Bradshaw and Elway are at 4. Staubach at two but two very memorable ones. I went into that.
I’m done!
Comebacks can be great numbers, especially in postseason for all the marbles but have drawbacks as well … That’s what I admire about Joe Montana … yes he had comebacks and game winning drives but his play and
execution was so strong that he usually produced big leads and blowouts.
Elway on the other hand, had to do alot of last minute comebacks because his play and execution was inconsistent. He, along with Staubach, Montana and others thrived on having the ball last
Many players with high comeback, game winning drive numbers played a long time as well.
That’s the difference between Ken Stabler and Ken Anderson … they both went to a SB but Stabler won more big games and has a lot better winning pct. Stablers comebacks, especially in postseason were dramatic, though he didnt have Anderson’s athleticism.
Stabler’s TD run to take the lead against Pitts in the 72 playoffs should have won the game but the Oakland defenders had already checked out mentally … Franco’s amazing play was a fluke if there ever was one …
Then the Sea Of Hands Game in 1974 …
The movement of his body to draw the penalty that allowed the great comeback vs NE in 1976 …
The Ghost to the Post Game to beat Baltimore in 1977.
These clutch postseason games and a SB is why the Snake gets in …
Dallas’ comeback from 17 points down in 4th quarter at Candlestick after Morton and Cowboys stunk up the place was the one I believe gave Roger Staubach the name Captain Comeback. One of the greatest comebacks I saw of that era. And than the Hail Mary in Minnesota where Drew Pearson catches ball on his hip at 5 yard line are among the most memorable. Not a great game but who will forget the end.
“Sea of Hands” was a great Playoff game in it’s totality, many say the greatest to that point and a long time after. Stabler was so cool under pressure.
I know you disagree, but that is why Pearson should be in the HOF … clutch play
Staubachs TD pass to Pearson in a 73 playoff game against the Rams broke open a very tight game in Texas Stadium …
Before the Hail Mary catch against the Vikings, Pearson jumped up and grabbed an impossible pass from Staubach on 4th down, that was so smooth, he got a forceout call.
His catches beat Atlanta late in the 80/81 playoff game to beat Atlanta …
His catch in the last minute should have led to a winning FG to beat the 49ers in 81/82 NFC Champ but QB White fumbled on the next play !!
Pearson was way beyond numbers …
I waffle, only very slight disagreement. lol But when you see Harold Carmichael make it it’s hard to imagine Pearson doesn’t belong in the HOF. I think Pearson has taken the brunt of the Cowboys anti-bias which I believe is real. I have to imagine the HOF is hearing the criticism and he will be in soon. Too bad it takes a man to be thoroughly disgusted for everyone to see, to get the call. I think it was not a good look for Pearson but who am I to judge I’m not in his shoes with everyone telling me it was my year.
I think the Hall was determined to get more safeties voted in, so Pearson and Faneca had to wait because they went with Harris and Polamalu first ballot.
Pearson will get in this year with either Wistert or Gradishar.
I think Faneca will too, unless there are three first ballot choices with Manning, Woodson and Johnson …
Lets not refer to the voting process as the “Hall”, the centennial class was elected by the BRP, and moving forward it will be up to the seniors committee and not the “Hall” to decide on whom to select as a finalist. I really don’t think the “Hall” is going to be responsive to any public outcry regarding Pearson’s situation, they spent years ignoring the calls for many others to be elected, including other public expressions by candidates when not elected.
Nor has the seniors committee or full election committee ever shown any regret over their decisions nor compassion to elect a candidate bypassed-especially by the very next election. Perhaps Pearson does get elected in 2021, as a centennial class finalist he clearly has been deemed deserving, but I don’t believe his public shame will assure his election so soon (2 Cowboys were in class of 15 this year). Certainly he will elected one year soon, I am just not that confident it happens so soon. Remember 5 members of the seniors committee will select the class of2021 finalist(s), likely to be many names considered, could be Wistert or Gradishar as they certainly are also very deserving, and would represent two different areas, one offense and one defense.
I feel sorry and bad for Pearson, mostly because of the HALL decided to announce the centennial class, one by one over 2 hrs on NFL Network, a long and unnecessary public process that was a terrible approach by David Baker and the Hall staff and they should be ashamed at how that was done. And yes by inviting a local news crew into his house Pearson risked a public showing of his reaction if not elected which of course is how it all played out. But at least it did not need to be handled in such a way and make the finalists wait for hours while watching slots disappear slowly one by one in front of the world’s eyes.
Shame on the Hall for treating the centennial class finalists in that manner, and they need to be called out for their poor judgement and mishandling of the announcement.
Classes with three 1st ballot modern candidates are uncommon, which leads to my thinking and prediction that Johnson does not get elected in 2021, also as WRs typically have an extra hard time getting in as first ballot.
I’d make Calvin Johnson wait a while. IMO not much more deserving than Cris Carter who waited 4 years.
Trivia question:
Don’t cheat!
Of these QB’s who is the wealthiest? Hint all are millionaires but it’s not close. lol
Fran Tarkington
Joe Namath
Terry Bradshaw
Bob Griese
Roger Staubach
Troy Aikman
Dan Marino
Joe Theisman
Phil Simms
Staubach and Tarkenton are loaded … I would go with Staubach … he also gives a lot of money away … His Football Life special on NFL Network is the best I have seen …
You’re right Paul …
People cant really blame Pearson for his reaction on tv … the process like you said was ridiculous … if the commitees that vote for the HOF players want to keep milking the drama for all its worth, at least do it for LIVING players ..
Winner winner chicken dinner! Take a rain check? lol You got both right, impressive. Staubach has done very well with a net worth of 650 million and Fran at 100 million. Surprisingly Terry Bradshaw who has been everywhere for years is only worth a mere 25 million. LOL All have done well.
Can’t say I disagree with your Pearson comments.
“ if the commitees that vote for the HOF players want to keep milking the drama for all its worth”
Pretty sure the voters don’t care at all about creating drama, it’s the Hall that turns the process, election and announcements into drama for ratings and media attention, sometimes it comes off well done, sometimes it falls flat
Travis Fredrick retired yesterday. Is he this generations’ Dwight Stephenson? Is he even a HOFamer?
Unfortunately with only one first team all pro in a 7 year career there will be no path for Frederick to get in the Hall. Stephenson had 5x first team all pro in 8 yr career and made 80s all decade team
I think Travis Frederick cost himself a spot in Canton. He has 5 pro bowls and a combined 3 1st and 2nd all pro teams. I thought he was about to be a 9 or a 10 time pro bowler at the center position if he did not retire early.
Centers are tough to induct into Canton. My problem is Jay Hilgenberg as of right now is not inducted into canton and he played longer than Tavis Frederick. The problem is the amount of pro bowls right now. When it comes to the offensive line, Tackles seem to get looked at more than Guards and Centers.
Stephenson, Langer and Webster were so dominant, it hurts HOF arguments for other excellent centers at that time like Macek and Dalby
Not sure Frederick will make it … Hilgenberg and Kruenz may have to wait as well …
Was Frederick that good? Should have more All Pro years you would think. If not for watching some Cowboys games I doubt I would know who he was. When John Madden was around he used to like to talk about the Offensive Lineman. They don’t seem to get the same name recognition in calling a game. Only when they do a penalty.
Call me old fashion but I want to see a strong ten years for a HOF Linemen. I want durability.
Frederick was likely the 3rd best OC in last have of the 2010s decade, but probably will fall short of all decade (Klece and Kalil or Mack or Pouncy). Decade really did not have a dominate OC, Klece has 3x first team all pro.
So yes considering the 1(2)/5 profile with 96 games played and started (missed 2018 season), Frederick was a pretty good player and viewed across league as a top OC. Not getting into the Hall but thats a pretty good career.
Unfortunately there is a tendency for OL only to get attention when a penalty is called, but in last few decades excellent OL play is also increasingly being recognized by those commenting on the game.
RIP Mike Stratton. He was someone who should have been considered for HOF. Maybe some day by the Seniors, although their is a pretty good line formed behind, Howley, Gradishar, Nobis and Curis.
Listed are the top respective linebackers by the guys at Pro Football Journal who haven’t yet made the HOF … I have tremendous respect for this writer and researchers, though I mix in my own thoughts as well …
Top 15 MLBs Not In The Hall
Randy Gradishar
Patrick Willis
Luke Kuechly (later eligible)
Bobby Wagner (later eligible)
Zach Thomas
Bill Bergey
Tommy Nobis
Steve Nelson
Sam Mills
John Offerdahl (Short career like Willis, Kuechly)
Chris Spielman
Chuck Drazenovich (Considered the first Middle linebacker)
Hardy Nickerson (I rate higher up the list)
Lee Roy Jordan
London Fletcher
Top OLBs
Chuck Howley ( Everyone agrees with)
Maxie Baughan
Cornelius Bennett
Wilbur Marshall
Matt Blair
Greg Lloyd
Seth Joyner
Lance Briggs
Clay Matthews
Isaiah Robertson
Rod Martin
Joe Fortunato
Lavonte David (later eligible)
Carl Banks
Top Rushbackers 34 Defence
Von Miller (later eligible)
DeMarcus Ware (later eligible)
Terrell Suggs
Pat Swilling
Justin Houston (later eligible)
Aldon Smith (An idiot)
Khalil Mack (later eligible)
James Harrison
Clay Matthews (later eligible)
Joey Porter
Ryan Kerrigan (later eligible)
Tim Harris
Simon Fletcher
Brian Orakpo (later eligible)
Willie McGinest (I would rate higher)
Made some mistakes with above lists …
MLB list includes Inside linebackers as well …
Suggs, Harrison and Matthews Jr are future eligibles …
Nice to see Bill Bergey and John Offerdahl on the list. Boy the Dolphins have a lot of great players that appear to just come up short on years to make the HOF.
Matt Blair was extraordinary at blocking kicks but I’d still take Isiah Robertson ahead of him. Wouldn’t bother me if both made the HOF. Very fast and athletic. I don’t know how their tackling looks on film though.Both had great D-Lines to free lance behind.
Y’all know how much I love the Rams D of the 70’s. In order the Rams, Steelers, Vikings, Dolphins and Cowboys were consistently the best Defenses for the decade with the Redskins close behind. I always wondered, what if the Rams had a QB like Roger Staubach? lol There never was a Super Bowl winner with a mediocre QB in the 1970’s. I guess the SB winning Colts was the closest to that with a beat up old Johnny Unitas teaming up with an aged Earl Morrall versus the Cowboys. The AFC Championship must of been called the Geritol Bowl with Blanda vs. Unitas. lol Back to the Cowboys, lol has any teams ever been given 7 turnovers and lost the game? The Dolphins versus the Cowboys really did have an extraordinary story line. I wish I could rewrite history. lol Just think it could of been Colts versus Cowboys in a SB rematch. The Cowboys would of destroyed the Colts and Unitas worse than the Dolphins did 17-0. They had the right man at QB for the next SB. :)
Rod Martin was another one of my favorites to watch. Big play Rod.
John Unitas played well beating the Raiders and George Blanda but the Colts defence bailed him out against the Cowboys … to this day I never understood why Landry didnt go with Staubach over Morton. Mortons arm was sore and Joe Namath for NBC talked about it before the game. A terrible game for him and the Cowboys.
I thought Rod Martin was an excellent linebacker as well. I think Jack Reynolds should be in the Hall. A great run stuffing linebacker for the Rams and the Niners …
I know Johnny Unitas’ arm was sore. Are you sure both had sore arms? I saw Unitas was only 11-30 passing but he had no Ints. while Blanda had 3. Box score looked like a pretty good game. Oakland only teased at a win though. I’ve written posts supporting Hacksaw for HOF but it’s unlikely with only 2 PB’s but those who watched know of the significance. I thought he was really important for the 49ers winning their first SB.
WR Roy Jefferson is another one we’ve discussed as a borderline HOF candidate.
I wish I had that 70 AFC Champ game …
Unitas didnt have great stats but his passes were big and he mixed in the running game well. Anytime you score 27 on those Raiders, your team did well …
I also want the 71 div playoff where he beat Cleveland in Municipal Stadium … his last big win.
I have the 71 AFC Champ from radio …
Roy Jefferson?? really??
Yes Paul! LOL Must of been before your time on here. :) I said discussed, know one thinks he’s a HOFer but worth mentioning. His stat’s are on par with Drew Pearson. He was 3/1 and starting WR for two different SB Teams. One time All Pro is pretty good. And a friend of mine went to high school with him so there! hahaha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYCBAmyghhM
One time all pro is pretty good?? Sheltering in place starting to affect you?
Jefferson was okay for a brief period but another underrated receiver was Gary Garrison for the Chargers. He benefitted having Alworth across from him but came into his own during the dead ball era of the early to mid 70s … playing on a terrible Chargers team didnt help his accolades.
Well yes Paul but beside the point. lol Must be pretty good or wouldn’t have so many with one AP or none in the HOF.
We talked about Garrison too. lol I don’t think Bachslunch thought he was a HOFer and he saw all those guys real-time. Is he still around on another website? Someone needs to tell him to come back. He was my go to on pre-1970’s players. I wish I could remember what he thought about Larry Grantham. I’m not a strong supporter because most of his accolades are pre-1966. Right or wrong I think accolades carry more weight in the later half of the decade when I assume the AFL was more on a par with the NFL.
If they can put Floyd Little into the HOF I can put James Brooks. He was fun too watch run and catch the ball. 4.7 Y/ isn’t too shabby. I can’t see his fumble numbers on my screen. Not a very big guy at 5’10” 180 lbs. About the size of Eric Metcalf. His Daddy Terry was some player. He had a strange career or he might be talked about for the HOF. Either he was really fast or everyone else was slow. lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CM9taFu_ho
Good compilation of James Brooks career. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UUIm6ZnnYM
This Week In Pro Football 1970 Week 9 . Love this show. They tell a story of the game. I like better than all stuff they do today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq_UXyRkbb4
“Must be pretty good or wouldn’t have so many with one AP or none in the HOF.“
How many exactly? Name three. And without any other accomplishments, awards, career top stats or championships, bet answer is very few compared to hundreds not in with one AP
As to Bachslunch, you will find him and a few other regulars on Talk of Fame or PFRA where they can engage PFHOF voters more so then here. Bachslunch got fed up with fact that our posts and decisions didn’t influence the voters or outcomes. At least that’s my take on him.
Paul, whats the best way to engage the voters/writers on PFRA ?
I tried to get on their posting threads but either they didnt get back or had problems with my phone/email address …
No really sure Brian as they seem to be a pretty closed group, Talk of Fame likely best to get ear of a voter, but of course you already know that
You changed the criteria Paul. I was only talking 1st Team ALL Pro. Harry Carson, Issac Bruce, Winston Hill, Harold Carmichael, Dick LeBeau and Jackie Slater come to mind. Elway, Aikman, Stuabach. Can’t think of any more but might be. There are more in HOF with only one and lots who are discussed with potential.
If you’re viewed as the best at your position in all the League , I say that “pretty good”. LOL! Especially because really great players get locked into their greatness maybe a little longer than they deserve sometimes. Is it enough alone, of course not. If I thought that, I wouldn’t of been railing against Floyd Little being inducted. :)
“Harry Carson, Issac Bruce, Winston Hill, Harold Carmichael, Dick LeBeau and Jackie Slater come to mind. Elway, Aikman, Stuabach“
I think we can make cases for each of these way beyond lack of at least one first team all pro team selection. Don’t think you could make same case for a player like Jefferson who really doesn’t have much else to his case. Would any reasonable person suggest his case is better than anyone on your list??
Ok, we didn’t discuss Roy Jefferson as borderline we just discussed him. lol Along with Mike Curtis 4/2 and Jerry Sherk 4/1. Greg Pruitt 5/0 was a heck of a player too. Always surprises me how many really good players never collected the accolades.
Thom Darden is one. A 1/0 with 45 interceptions.
Accolades are often hit or miss, plus only so many to go around yet sometimes many deserving but history is history and one can only consider career accomplishments and achievements made, not speculating decades later who may have been more deserving. Nothing is perfect and no selection of accolades would ever be exact science, they are what they are
You’re right Paul …
That’s why postseason/championships and player’s play in these extra games, should tip the scales a player’s way …
Terrell Davis is the best example … Despite Denvers offensive line making any runner look good after TD … his postseason excellence tips the scale but we all know that …
But look at Dick Anderson for Miami … he doesnt have enough accolades and had a short career as well but in the 71 AFC Championship, he had a key interception return for a TD that sealed the game before the Dolphins lost the SB …
He had two critical interceptions in the 72 playoff win over Cleveland in a super tight game.
In the 72/73 SB, his wallop of Redskin RB Larry Brown during a run, is a highlight NFL Films has shown forever, and an undefeated season.
He not only had an interception to help beat the Bengals in the 73 playoffs but stopped the Snake on a key 4th down play in the AFC Champ game against the Raiders that sealed the win before winning a back to back SB …
He also intercepted the Snake in the 74 “Sea Of Hands Game” …
What more does he have to do ?
Want more ?
Anderson recovered a fumble in the great 71 playoff win against KC … The Longest Game Ever Played …
And recovered a fumble against the Redskins in the 72/73 SB, though Fernandez and Scott deserved Co-MVP awards … sorry TonyP
Fernandez was the MVP IMO. I think he had 18 tackles from the DT position. I agree with Scott’s greatness but heard Jake Scott’s toughness was the Defensive motivator. I think his broken wrist before the Dallas SB probably effected the Team’s psyche. It was still Dallas’ time but I think they would of showed better. Still I don’t know about Scott’s influence because, Nick Buoniconti seemed like a pretty great field general throwing around his body at his size.
I remember watching Dick Anderson’s 4 interception game that was something to see. lol
Scott and Anderson are deserving but the voters wont put both in … they cancel each other out …
I watched the highlights of the Cleveland vs Miami Playoff game for the first time. Nothing like I remembered! lol I thought the game was played at night and I thought Mercury Morris had a big run around end to break up a tight game late. Didn’t remember Warfield being a star late. And the blocking on the Anderson touchdown was amazing! 5 text book blocks. Maybe I don’t notice blocks today because the players are so fast.
Miami just had a bunch of great athletes on Defense. No one really stood out and few remember their names except die hard Miami fans. Names like Mike Kolen, Bob Matheson and Doug Swift, Curtis Johnson, Bill Stanfill, Vern Den Herder and Manny Fernanzez. As good as those teams were for about five years you would think they would be more familiar. It wasn’t like today where success makes players into household names. I remember they always talked back than about Miami’s bend but don’t break D and it was true. Teams could move well from the 20 to 30 yd line than they had an uncanny ability to make the big interception or stop. It was a little too exciting to watch at times. lol But they kept Teams from scoring just about as well as any Defense for a couple years.
I always liked watching the Browns . They were very competitive. Plus I always wanted them to beat the Steelers and they did sometimes. They just couldn’t get it done with Phipps. Sipe was better and than Kosar gave them their best chance. Mike Pruitt was a heck of a tough running back we’ve talked about before. Along with TE Todd Christensen 5/2 around that time in the early to mid 80’s. I’m not sure why the Cowboys missed on him. They knew he had the talent out of BYU. I guess they didn’t know how to use him ? I’m pretty sure they drafted him to be their FB . He turned out to be a heck of a weapon for the Raiders.
Mark Van Eeghen was one of the best running FB’s of his time. Never made a Pro Bowl despite three 1,000 yd seasons Too many really great RB’s on the scene when he came along. 1975-85 the golden period for RB’s. They just kept getting cranked out.
I’ve got Walter Payton leading the pack as number one impactful RB of that time from 1975-1985. He started the real excitement at RB IMO after the O.J. Simpson era.
Than I’d rate in this order: Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Eric Dickerson, Ottis Anderson, Billy Sims, Marcus Allen, John Riggins (He’s unique because he played so long and well at the end so he gets in this group.), Wilbert Montgomery, William Andrews, Roger Craig, Gerald Riggs, Freeman McNeil, Curt Warner, Joe Morris, Chuck Muncie and Mike Pruitt.
Franco Harris, Chuck Foreman, Lawrence McCutcheons, Lydel Mitchell and Greg Pruitt all came into the League before 1985 and added to the greatness of the second half of the 1970’s.
I look at the numbers, the accolades and remember how great the player was and I wonder what’s keeping Roger Craig out of the HOF? He did everything Walsh asked him to do with excellence. I don’t think many would argue if he was in the HOF.
Scott and Anderson are victims of the ignorance of voters on the safety position that existed for decades of elections and given the number of candidates including other deserving safeties in the seniors pool, unfortunately I don’t see a path to election for either of them
I think Craig has been buried behind a deep pool of PFHOF RBs from his era, plus lack of career rushing yards and top rushing yard seasons, but he is now among the most deserving candidates from 80s and likely will get in one day soon
I was watching on YouTube, A Football Life, on Csonka, Kiick and Morris. Kiick and certainly Morris where even better than I remembered. I didn’t actually see that many of their games. I saw Kiick a little more with Denver and but he a shell of his former self. Morris made everyone look slow, even more than Terry Metcalf. Too bad Miami didn’t use him a little more early on (only one football.) lol_and he didn’t stay healthier. They did have the same incentive to have longer careers with the type of money the made. Csonka could of played a year or two more but he rather go fishing in Alaska than go through a sweltering training camp.
Morris certainly had HOF talent. Not many RB’s have over 5 yards a carry for their career. Just think how Morris could be used today with that speed.
I still think RB and WR positions more than any other position, should be looked at on the basis of their prime years and not whether they necessarily had a long career. Their are a couple on the previous list that I don’t think I’d mind in the HOF. I’m going to have to look at some film to see if they are as good as I remember and get back to y’all.
I think Ottis Anderson, Billy Sims and William Andrews had 5-6 prime years that make them good HOF candidates. They were special talents all affected by serious knee injuries but IMO showed enough. Wilbert Montgomery is just a little short of consideration.
Since I mentioned Linebackers that Pro Football Jounal rated very highly, that arent in the HOF … I thought it might be fun to mention Interior Defensive Lineman as well …
Top 15 Interior defensive lineman not in HOF … 43
Defensive tackles
Bryant Young
Tom Sestak
Big Daddy Lipscomb
Kevin Williams (future eligible)
Joe Klecko
Roger Brown
Michael Dean Perry
Larry Brooks
Ndamukong Suh (future eligible)
Gary “Big Hands” Johnson
Mike Reid (short career)
Geno Atkins (future eligible)
Ernie Ladd
Wally Chambers
Jerome Brown (short career)
34 Nose/Shade Tackles
Fred Smerlas
Ted Washington
Henry Thomas
Michael Carter
Pat Williams (future eligible)
Vince Wilfork (future eligible ?)
Jerry Ball
Charlie Johnson
Haloti Ngata (future eligible)
Bob Baumhower
Tim Krumrie ( I rate higher)
Ray Hamilton
Rubin Carter
Billy Sims only played 5 seasons, just first two at all pro, that doesn’t make him a HOF contender
And I don’t think Andrews’ 6 yr career (2 all pro second team) s any better as candidate
I would agree Paul but will depend if the standard changes over time. I’d suggest it has slightly by putting Floyd Little in the HOF. I know Jimbo Covert wasn’t the regular Committee but that pushes a little two.
I’ll admit he’s a long shot. He might of be a half year short on the resume. But Billy Sims was a sensation from the day he came into the League up until he blew out his knee.
As far as accolades, how was he going to compete with such stacked greatness at RB around the League? Three of the greatest RB’s Payton, Campbell and Dorsett in NFL history, already established in the League along with the sensational OJ Anderson, Chuck Muncie and rock determined Wilbert Montgomery, William Andrews and John Riggins? Sims got 1st and 2nd Team All Pro selections by different publications. I don’t know how the AP could make accurate selection with so many great RB’s? My go back than was Pro Football Weekly. I don’t think his accolades tell the story of his greatness.
Wilbert Montgomery had one of his best years in 1981 with over 1,400 yds and 4.9 yds a carry and didn’t make the PB. lol
AS far as Andrews, I’ll just say he should have a shot years down the road.
Ottis Anderson is a no brainer IMO.
go to back than. lol .
Brian, the first name I looked for on your list was a Longhorn great and Steelers mainstay at NT during their winning in the 2000’s was Casey Hampton 5/0 2 time SB champ. Maybe not a HOFer but was pretty great for a few years and one of the best NT’s in the League. I think it’s really good if a NT can even make the PB. That’s something to consider with guys like Baumhower 5/1 and Smerlas 5/1. Curely Culp is a 4/1 at the position.
I’ll have to see who “nosed” Hampton out for PB’s and AP’s
PB – Nose Tackles “only” during Hampton’s career
2001- none, 2002 – none, 2003- Casey Hampton, 2004 – none, 2006 Casey Hampton and Pat Williams, 2007 Casey Hampton. Pat Williams, 2008 – Shaun Rodgers, Vince Wilfork and Jay Ratliff, 2009 – Casey Hampton and Jay Ratliff, 2010 – Jay Ratliff, 2011 – Jay Ratliff and B.J. Raji, 2012 – none
Note I didn’t include all of Vince Wilfork’s PB’s 5/1 because most of his seasons he played a combination of DT and NT according to Pro Reference. Probably little doubt he was the best NT of the time that overlapped Hampton. His 2008 was a very impressive year with 66 tackles from the NT position. Still safe to say Hampton was always somewhere in the top 5 mix. He was a heck of a run stuffer!
The only player I can find with a NT of any kind besides his name to be named All Pro from 2000-2012 was Jay Ratliff in 2009. The one year Wilfork made All Pro he was playing DT only.
So I would conclude, if you’re a NT and you’ve made one 1st Team All Pro status that’s slightly amazing. I’m thinking Curley Culp , Bob Baumhower, Fred Smerlas, Joe Klecko, Jerry Ball and Jay Ratliff are the only ones to do it. Of course the 3-4 Defense is not used much by Teams as 4-3. Still it kind of puts those guys into context. They did great to beat out deserving Defensive Tackles for the honor. Only six players have done it since it’ ? ? since the 1972 Miami Dolphins became the first team to win a Super Bowl with the 3-4 and go undefeated.
DT’s Ndamukong Suh 5/3 and Geno Atkins are just about there as HOFers ?
I forgot NT Michael Carter 3/1 as AP. Bet 1 or two more maybe in the 1990’s.
Brian, you need to rate Baumhower higher. LOL I have hope!
I absolutely don’t believe the Pro Reference numbers on Krumrie. If he was in on 152 tackles in his AP season and had over 1000 from the NT position in his career than I’m a monkey’s uncle. lol The best player ever on the line IMO, Reggie White didn’t have many more. The only thing I believe is he was a 2/1. :)
This isn’t your list Brian? sorry. IMO Baumhower was slightly better than Smerlas. Ngata doesn’t show as playing NT but for only two years in his career. Not sure if ProRef is correct.
The ones I have the most respect for who are eligible now are: Baumhower, Smerlas and Ball. Jerry Ball’s peak at the position was as good as anyone IMO. The other two sustained it longer but was it enough? Baumhower’s size and his quickness were unique. Can’t find film on him except blocking a FG. .
Charlie Johnson made 2 AP’s at NT I’m betting that’s the only one to do that. And I can’t really remember him that’s bad! LOL Must of been damn good for a couple years! Ok after watching film I vaguely remember him.
I don’t think Henry Thomas was a NT. Ted Washington 3/0 was really good and played forever. Doesn’t feel all that elite for his time. He stood out I think because a lot of teams went away from the 3-4 in the 90’s. Too bad he didn’t play for better teams.
These were guys Pro Football Journal rated …
I only listed 13 nose/shade tackles because probably only one or two will make the HOF which is unfortunate …
Thomas was mostly a shade tackle over the center in 43 defences or when the Vikes did a 34 look … mostly run downs … DT on passing downs with 93 sacks … also helped Randle develop …
Krumries tackle numbers are too good to be true but he did stand out …
Hampton, Ratcliff and Williams for SD were just outside PFR Top 15 (Not in the HOF)
Hampton was great against the run …
I would put Smerlas, Washington, Thomas and Krumrie in the HOF … Maybe Baumhower too
“Floyd Little in the HOF. I know Jimbo Covert wasn’t the regular Committee but that pushes a little two.“
Two bad isolated choices, one by a committee of 5, the other that included 1/2 members who were not regular meetings don’t represent any trend or shift in voting philosophy. Getting into Hall will remain a very difficult and high standard and with the larger number of more deserving and accomplished candidates both modern and senior pools, short careers will continue to be very rare and unlikely. There are, and will continue to be, better candidates than Sims and Andrews
Not regular members
It doesn’t seem like the Senior selection committee has focused on the 1980’s yet.
Speaking of running backs, Most of the great backs listed by Pro Football Journal are in, but I want to list the top 20 that they listed, that arent in yet.
Of course their list is subjective and there are other backs, I believe should be in the HOF …
Top Runners not in the HOF …
Adrian Peterson (future eligible)
Billy Sims (short career)
Priest Holmes (short career)
Ricky Watters
Roger Craig
LeSean McCoy (future eligible)
Tiki Barber
Larry Brown (short career)
Shaun Alexander
Chuck Foreman (short career)
Lydell Mitchell
Jaamal Charles (future eligible)
Marshawn Lynch ( future eligible)
Bo Jackson (short career)
AFL Backs
Abner Hayes
Cookie Gilchrist
Jim Nance
Clem Daniels
Paul Lowe
These are other backs out of their top 50 that I would put in the HOF …
Ottis Anderson
Eddie George
Frank Gore
Warrick Dunn
James Brooks (special teams included)
Corey Dillon
Herschel Walker (special teams included)
John David Crow
Don Perkins
Brian Mitchell (special teams included)
Timmy Brown (special teams included)
It doesn’t seem like the Senior selection committee has focused on the 1980’s yet.
And may not for a while as still plenty deserving from 50s into 70s, and even some pre 50s
Brian is going for the 700 member Hall LOL
Haha … you might be right Paul but if Floyd Little and Paul Hornung can make it, anyone can …
I think the above backs should eventually get in but I would put in more defensive backs, offensive and defensive linemen, first … Its a HOF that loves statistics …
Here are the Top Safeties rated by Pro Football Journal that have not made the HOF yet …
Top 15 Safeties to not make the HOF
Nolan Cromwell
Earl Thomas (future eligible)
Eugene Robinson
Jimmy Patton
Eric Berry (future eligible/short career)
LeRoy Butler
John Lynch
Darren Woodson (I rate higher)
Eddie Meador
Deron Cherry
Carnell Lake
Rodney Harrison (I rate higher)
Gary Fencik
Mike Wagner
Dave Grayson
Others I would put in the HOF
Dick Anderson
Jake Scott
Darren Sharper
Dennis Smith
Bill Thompson
Jerry Logan
Tim McDonald
Joey Browner
Jack Tatum
Gary Barbaro
At least If I had my say of HOF players and could take out the players I don’t want in the Hall …
It would at least represent 2 pct of all the players who ever played pro football …
Cornell Green as well but I will list him with Cornerbacks ….
Top Cornerbacks rated by Pro Football Journal that have not made the HOF yet …
Top 15 Corners not in HOF …
Charles Woodson
Darrelle Revis
Richard Sherman
Louis Wright
Patrick Peterson
Albert Lewis (I rate better than Sanders)
Lester Hayes
Ronde Barber
Abe Woodson (I believe invented Bump and Run technique)
Lemar Parrish (I rate higher)
Erich Barnes
Charles Tillman
Eric Allen (I rate higher)
Ken Riley
Everson Walls
Other Corners I would put in the HOF
Bobby Boyd
Asante Samuel
Cornell Green
Butch Byrd
Antione Winfield
Kevin Ross
Dick Lynch
Yes, I like TACKLING cornerbacks …
Sorry, Woodson, Revis, Sherman, Peterson, and Tillman aren’t eligible yet …
RIP bobby Mitchell. a very versatile HOFamer, who provided a ton of excitement for browns and Redskins Fans
All decade teams were announced. Not a lot of surprises.
Thanks for the heads up Bill–curious to see what you guys think of the list: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2020/04/06/nfl-announces-all-decade-team-for-2010s/
I just want Dolphins in the HOF . Hahaha I’ll be tough on the rest. I think most of us have our bias’s. :)
The one place I’ve opened up my thinking to, is to NOT ignore HOF talent with RB’s by the nature of the position because of a shortened career by injury. This mostly applies to Senior players who didn’t have the benefit of modern medicine. I think Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis’ winning are too high a standard.
All decade list looks fine but odd that they did not set 1st and 2nd teams as has been the norm
I have no issue with short careers but the bar needs to be remain high, as in Sayers or Davis, not as in Covert
What about Herny Ellard? Once i saw Art Monk get in, i was appalled that Ellard never even got a sniff to that point or ever for that fact. He was the first to record 7 – 1000 yd seasons . Art Monk was a possession receiver. And with over 15,000 all purpose yards, i know the HOF does not care much for that or Brian Mitchell would already be in. he was a 3/1. Carmichael with his 4/1 AllPro to ProBowls. With the log jam of receivers and the numbers they put up today, i know he will never sniff the HOF, but is there something besides his play that makes him, not even to be mentioned by anyone. This guys was a true professional and brought it every game, every year for many years. He played on some pretty bad teams and I know that is part of it. But 3rd all time in receiving yards when he retired. 2nd only to Jerry Rice in 1000 yard seasons, 6th all-time in Receptions. He averaged 60.4 yards per game, which is better than the old timer Charlie Joiner, Lynn Swann, Andre Reed, James Lofton, and good ol’ Art Monk. and more than a popular newly popular Hines Ward.
I agree Ed, Ellard should have gotten in before Bruce, because Holt will get in as well.
As I mentioned on the Michael Vick post, Ellard excelled on special teams as well, and played for a lot of middling QBs, though Everett could throw the ball, when he set his feet properly.
Ellard caught the ball well downfield, without the horizontal game going on today.
Hard to compare Ellard to Bruce as they are from different eras, hard to see voters looking at Ellard, Bruce and Holt, and electing Ellard as a modern candidate when his numbers (yes I know from an earlier decade) just don’t match up well with Bruce and Holt, who also have SBs and playoffs to their resume. No remaining per 2000 WRs are going to be elected as moderns, will be grouped together now as seniors (good luck there).
I am not even sure all the post 2000, 800+ reception WRs are getting into the Hall – by 2020 ballot, seven of them could be on the ballot(If one is not elected in 2021)t!!
I agree Paul. I would hope he could get in with the Seniors. I see them putting in Pearson and Cliff Branch after the Carmichael selection. So possibly
Ed I agree with Pearson and Branch first, but only 1-2 seniors can be elected each year and there are 40-50+ candidates currently in that deep pool who are deserving, including many all decade team members and those with multiple all pro selections, prospects for another WR after Pearson and Branch are slim, more so for Ellard from the same era.
ESPN is reporting that 2020 PFHOF game and enshrinement events are being postponed until August 2021. The 10 modern coaches and contributors in class of 2020 will be enshrined next year with the class of 2021 (have to think there will be two separate ceremonies). Still unknown are plans for the September 17-19 NFL centennial events in Canton and enshrinement of the ten members of the 2020 centennial class. Expect official news and more details later today from League and Hall after scheduled conference call by NFL owners when decision will be confirmed.
It’s official, 2020 enshrinement events including game and ceremonies to induct new PFHOFs moved to 2021 Enshirement week events, Aug 5-9, 2021, including all 28 new PFHOFers from Class of 2020, Centennial Class, and Class of 2021. Two Enshrinement events to be held to accommodate the large number of inductions.
https://www.profootballhof.com/pro-football-hall-of-fame-enshrinement-week-postponed-amid-covid-19-pandemic
looks like plan is to have ceremony for class of 2020 on Saturday Aug 7th, 2021 and class of 2021 on Sunday August 8th, 2021 what is not clear is whether plans continue for September 2020 NFL centennial events in Canton, including enshrinement of the 15 member centennial class (seniors, coaches and contributors) or they will also wait until August 2021? To date there has been no update on whether the NFL Centennial events are still being held.
David Baker CEO PFHOF clarified in interview today, centennial class plus class of 2020 and class of 2021 will also be enshrined at ceremonies in August 2021, could be as many as 28 added to Hall
Sat August 7th, 2021 – Class of 2020, including Centennial Class enshrinement (8+12), total speeches = 12 as none for deceased PFHOFers elected
Sun August 8th,2021 – Class of 2021 (up to 8)-elected in February 2021.
No updates yet from Hall regarding number of seniors to be elected in 2021 or how they will handle coaches.
Thanks for the info Paul. Induction ceremony is just a formality. The 2020 Class is technically in the HOF so If one dies they will of known they made it . What’s another year? Lol I wonder who the oldest new member is?
Wouldnt it be Carmichael for the players … Johnson overall ?
Johnson … then Cliff Harris
TonyP I understand the ceremony is just a formality (class of 2020 are already listed on the PFHOF website as members), just updating folks on plans for the class of 2020 and the now postponed August 2020 events. Still unfortunately that they will have to wait another year for their gold jackets, bronze busts and rings (although delay is understandable)
I was just thinking aloud to myself not towards you Paul. Too bad they have to wait. But yes they deserve full treatment. None of this all virtual stuff!
All the offended class is making another push for Washington to drop the Redskins nickname. They will gert their way this time.
Good thing I can reminisce about the old NFL game because I’m really starting to not give a hoot about this new social justice NFL and the players in it. Two years ago I didn’t watch one game all year. Looks like I’ll be repeating that.
I really believe with the ceremonies being postponed, that Pearson could join Johnson and Harris during next years induction.
Faneca could join Polamalu, Shell and Cowher as well … It will be interesting, though anything can happen.
I still cant believe that the AFL players voting panel from Talkoffamenetwork didnt include Cappelletti, the AFL’s all time leading scorer in the final ten not in the HOF …
I guess to them he wasnt good enough of a kicker or receiver to make the group.
NFL history is full of teams changing names, my interest and following NFL isn’t going to be impacted by getting rid of a clearly offensive racist team name or does the involvement of the league or its players with any social causes. I watch for the play on the field and could never understand why any fans would choose to stop watching simply because of issues that have nothing to do with the actual playing of games
Was “Redskins” clearly offense to you when they were winning Super Bowls? I heard the mantra 10 years ago related to the name change, ‘if one person is offended that is too many”. Hell of a way to run a society. We see
what’s happening now where mob rules. EVERYTHING is offensive and there’s no tolerance for history or tradition anymore.
I can’t in good conscious support multi-millionaires playing a game, who I can’t relate to or respect for their views which unfortunately are heard all the time through social media and 24 hour sports networks. I wish it was still about the sport they play but it’s the players who have chosen to move away from that. That’s just my opinion, I don’t expect anyone to agree.
Yep I have found Redskins to be offensive for years as so have many others, finally enough pressure to get it changed. And at end of day NFL is a sport with players, that’s the attraction, the reason to watch, all the rest is just background noise and not reason why folks watch or attend games. The off the field stuff is just hype or driven by media and social media feeding interest when games not being played.
Relating to a top athlete who is a millionaire? No fans can relate to those players, they live a life completely different than the rest of us. Plus many players to admire and follow that aren’t active in social causes that perhaps you disagree with. Let’s just appreciate the game which again is only reason to watch or follow the league, teams and any player.
I respect your opinion but I don’t appreciate the NFL game enough to listen to what I view as propaganda. I’m happy to talk about the old NFL. :)
I also respect others opinions and views, just in this case as a football fan (since 1977) interested in the actual game on the field, I could never understand why some fans get upset or state they will no longer watch the game because of actions of some players or specific social issues they or the league support (which is not a new aspect of the NFL, only magnified by the huge media and social media reach in today’s world). Some are all upset about anthems which are not seen televised and that many are not even in the stands when played, so they are upset about something they otherwise would not even be aware of and has nothing to do with actually playing the game.
Yes I am a fan, and follow my favorite player and teams but long since moved beyond thinking of them as role models or heroes, nor is it possible to relate to most of them as millionaires so their off the field interests and views are of little interest to me as a football fan. And yes the history of the game is appealing, even though in retrospect the old NFL certainly had its challenges and aspects that we did not concern ourselves of, ignored or were simply not aware of. Its easy to say it was a simpler better times in the past, when issues were there if not hidden a little more under the surface. if one thinks there was not propaganda from the league and players in previous eras, you are looking at the past in rose colored glasses, it was there and often also very divisive.
I agree Paul. The old NFL had many if not worse issues than today’s NFL.
Our Government is so corrupt :( but this should be a game changer if the news can get around. Maybe in time for Hall of Fame?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSDdwN2Xcg&feature=youtu.be
Be careful of any claims of a cure based on youtube video
and maybe a vaccine in time for 2021 PFHOF
I am. I already see the criticism from Doctors just wait for national media to get to. lol But his approach makes sense to me and I don’t think he’s lying just to make an ass out of himself. I’m glad a Doctor is thinking outside the box because they are trained to be so cautious. Maybe it’s just a viable treatment not a cure but it’s hopeful. Thus virus will likely of run it’s course by end of next summer. Any way I know this year’s Hall of Fame is a pipe dream. Felt good to say for a second. lol
I think you just need to be careful and consider the source (plus seek information from a variety of sources) as plenty gets posted on the internet or social media that simply has no basis in reality or truth, since anyone can post anything, including those without expertise, And if you don’t trust the media, there are numerous excellent public health and medical resources available online that have plenty of information and insights on COVID-19 directly from actual medical experts.
I’d like to know where these guys are in the HOF process? They need to progressing along especially Corey Dillon. . I just watched film on both Corey Dillon and Fred Taylor. I’ve always been a strong supporter of Dillon but now I could be a supporter of Taylor too. He was fun to watch. It’s really hard to believe those two guys were both 225lbs. Taylor had more moves and speed and Dillon had more strength and slightly more tenacity or toughness or nasty or whatever that intangible is that lets the lesser skilled player rise above.
Dillon did have some really good blocking with the Bengals early in his career. IWhen I remember watching him was towards the end of his time with the Bengals when they consistently pounded the ball with him for 3 or 4 yards up the middle .I guess that’s where he got his nickname. “clock killin” Dillon.
I remembered Taylor was fast but he had better moves than I remember. I still favor Dillon over him the HOF because of his huge games
https://www.bengals.com/news/top-50-moments-corey-dillon-breaks-single-game-rushing-record-19788159
and his success with the Pats late in his career. It was obvious Dillon was in great shape playing for Belichek. Almost seems unfair after watching the Cinncy highlights than see the Pats got that guy. lol The Patriots went from Cory Dillon to Randy Moss. Both straightened up their act for Bill. That may be the best thing about Belichek, getting all types of players players to buy in. I think Joe Gibbs was good at that too.
Dillon 0/4 – Games 150 Rush 2,618 Yards 11,241 Y/A 4.3 TD 82
Taylor 0/1 – Games 153 Rush 2,534 Yards 11,695 Y/A 4.6 TD 66
Does anyone think Dillon’s run ins with the law is hurting him?
Back to back highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7qe0K2hS3o
I don’t believe Dillon’s off field issues have that much to do with his slow progression (if ever to the HOF) there are worse people in their already. I hope he gets a real close look some day. I feel like he provided just as much if not more than Bettis. i think guys like Taylor, Dillon and eventually Steven Jackson all may wind up in the Seniors pool.
Where would you put S. Alexander among those players?
You cant deny Alexanders success and TD numbers …
Though Dillon and Taylor have better numbers, George for the Titans helped his team win more. Though he wore down after crossing 10,000 yards in his first eight seasons, George was a warrior like Earl Campbell.
If it were up to me, Otis Anderson would be the next back in the Hall after James, but I believe these seniors will get in the next two years …
2021 Pearson and Gradishar
2022 Wistert and Branch
Its hard for a modern candidate (Dillon) to be elected without multiple all pro and/or all decade or not top 10 in career stats. Just look at moderns elected in last ten years. Taylor has been a semi-finalist so of the group of Alexander, Jackson, Dillon and Taylor, it is Taylor who has best chance. But I don’t think the prospects for any of them look all that great as moderns or senior candidates (Roger Craig has a better resume than any of them and look at where he still sits?). And in next several years Gore and Peterson will be eligible. Anderson is not even the best senior RB – that would be Craig – and he sits behind a long list of more deserving players from other positions. I would be surprised if anyone who really understands the senior candidate elections would have Anderson in their top 30.
Roger Craig only has Anderson beat in SBs with 3 to Andersons 2 … and receiving yards
Tale Of The Tape
Rushing Yards
Anderson 10,273
Craig 8,189
When Anderson retired, he was the seventh leading rusher of Alltime and the 1st one to cross the 10,000 yard rushing barrier WITHOUT making the HOF …
Receiving Yards
Craig 4911
Anderson 3062
Craig without a doubt, is one of the greatest receiving backs to ever play but Anderson for his big size, was no slouch either …
Yards From Srimmage
Anderson 13,335
Craig 13,100
Both had very high numbers when they retired
Total TDs
Anderson 86
Craig 73
Even with postseason numbers, Craig is behind Anderson in TDs
Accolades
Craig … MVP/88 Should have been SB MVP 84/85
Anderson … ROY/79 SB MVP 90/91 CBPY 89
Both were one time All-Pros
Craig has great postseason stats but had Anderson not missed most of 85, 86, 87 seasons, he would have ALREADY been in the HOF …
If Tiki Barber didn’t abruptly end his career he might be on top of that group. I can live with those Senior picks Brian. I gave up on picking Seniors a long time ago though. Lol Alexander is maybe under valued because of his running style as a slasher. A little bit of a one note but so impressive at the goaline and one of my favorites when he was at Alabama. That’s before I grew to hate Bama. lol They might hold his length of career against him but shouldn’t IMO. He took so many carries in his football life that by the time he approached 30, he was completely shot.
Paul, I might consider a lot of players before OJ Anderson but since I think he should be in the HOF; I doubt there are 30 HOFers among the Senior eligible ahead of him. So he is actually really high for me. He’s just doesn’t seem high on anyone’s radar. Maybe because of the player heand was at the end of his career he’s not getting the respect? He’s a NFL great story! And I have a hunch all of those other RB’s named had more talented OL’s to work with. If I was judging him I would view him as a short career RB with some gravy that takes him over the top..
So I watched Anderson’s highlights and he had more power than I remember less moves. IMO he really was a bigger version of OJ Simpson with less moves and more power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibgJ9jIfIec
So I was thinking Anderson’s power reminded me of Earl Campbell. Than I watched Campbell. Lol! Earl had more of everything than I remembered . :) Arguably the best power back in NFL history. And speed and moves. He was the whole package like Jim Brown. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUWLVE-UvqE
Sorry on the Total TDs …
Total TDs (Counting Postseason)
Anderson 89
Craig 82
Remember too … Due to 1982 strike, Anderson missed on another 7 games in his PRIME
Also, Being a Cowboy fan during the 80s, I feared Anderson EVERY time he played the Cowboys, and knew they couldnt beat us when he was hurt …
With or without Craig, Montana beat the Cowboys EVERY game in the 80s …
Let’s at least present Craig’s entire resume which includes his 1000y/1000y season, OPOY, 3 SBs and all decade team – those all carry weight with voters as they should.
I posted a long comment about what y’all said and now I don’t see it. :( I swear I wasn’t in the 107 degree heat too long today. lol
Anyway I pretty much agreed with everything you guys said. I watched film of both Ottis Anderson and Earl Campbell. I was thinking with Anderson’s power and talents he was comparable to Earl but not close. Earl was more elusive and had surprising speed. Campbell is arguably the best power back in NFL history. I like this video of his highlights and the music they put them to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUWLVE-UvqE
I view Anderson as a stronger version of Oj Simpson without the moves but more power. His career is a great NFL story of perseverance . I would view him as a short career player like a Sayers Terrell Davis and Campbell but without the gravy on top being his comeback and SB value he would for short of HOF.
Paul, Anderson might be 30th on list of players to consider but since I view him HOF worthy, I’d have him higher. I don’t think I can name 30 Senior players I think are HOFers not even close. I don’t know why it feels like he is so overlooked, is he? You guys keep up with the talk better than I do.
Ya, here’s Anderson’s film . It did seem like half his great runs were versus the Cowboys. Hahaha Sorry Paul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibgJ9jIfIec
My opinion about Shaun Alexander has changed. I support him for the HOF now. Maybe not right but I look at his football career with Alabama and the Pros. The number of carries he had he was bound to be shot as he approached 30 years old. And he really dropped off a cliff. I couldn’t believe he went from such a great year to looking slow and washed up. IMO he has the productivity with the TD’s ala John Riggins to be a HOFer. I do think his running style being a smart, slashing, slippery runner who avoided contact doesn’t excite a lot of people. I think a little bit of Franco Harris. In the end I can’t deny he was an exceptional player especially around the goal line.
Also I think if Tiki Barber hadn’t of quit so abruptly we might be talking about him at the top of the list.
Youre right Paul but we both know that Anderson’s injuries kept him from achieving more.
They both deserve the HOF …
Actually my perspective on Alexander was a little off He only carried the load at Bama for two years which is not that unusual but did stay there for four years so was an older NFL rookie. He did carry the ball a lot in the seasons he’s started at both levels. Than he lost a year basically sitting on the bench his first year in Seattle. I hope they don’t hold being one year short of a 10 year career against him like they do Safety Jake Scott and Drew Pearson. I would view the RB position different.
I was going to rank the most deserving RB’s in order but the more I look at the names the more I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder for the RB position. :)
For me OJ Simpson’s productivity gives us a really good picture of what a HOF RB should be for those coming after him. He had 3 really exceptional years and 2 very good years. Five years total that stood out. And his 11,234 career rushing yards seems like a really good HOF bench mark. So if a player doesn’t reach that number he should be expected to exceed 5 years above average years. I always use 1,000 yard 14 game season or 71. 43 YPG as the above average standard.
Lets see who meets that standard as a runner.
Of course pass catching yards and other intangibles can come into play. I will consider combined pass catching yds and rushing yds above 1,400 as very good and above 1,700 as exceptional.
Pass – OJ Anderson is over 10,000 but under total yards; 6 above average seasons with 4 exceptional. I haven’t changed my opinion in support one bit. I didn’t remember he was such a good receiver.
Fail – Roger Craig is well under total yards; 4 above average seasons with 2 exceptional. IMO Craig may get in on his accolades and reputation but shouldn’t based on his stats.
Pass – Corey Dillon is over total yards; 6 above average seasons with 1 exceptional. An over achiever IMO like Terrell Davis who for as much as I like his running is probably a true on the fence HOF guy for most. I hope he makes the HOF one day.
Pass – Fred Taylor is over total yards; 7 above average seasons with 4 exceptional. Statistically easily a HOFer and with 4 exceptional seasons should be a shoe in.
Pass – Steven Jackson is over total yards; 5 above average seasons with 2 exceptional. His good years are really marginal. He would not be someone I’d support.
Pass- Tiki Barber is over 10,000 but under total yards; 7 above average seasons with 5 exceptional. Truth is he’s not liked because he quit right at the peak of his powers to do TV for a Team that went on to win the SB. But he was 31 years old and did play 10 years which a lot of us think is an important bench mark. It was his loss so he paid a price. IMO those 5 exceptional seasons should make him a HOFer. OJ only had three and 2 less good years. I thought Barber was fun to watch, It’s like he’s a marked man now for quitting.
Fail – Thomas Jones is over 10.000 but under total yards; 5 above average seasons with 0 exceptional ; Nothing to see nice career.
Fail – Warrick Dunn is just under total yards; if generous 5 above average season with 0 exceptional ; ditto Thomas
Fail – Jamal Lewis is over 10,000 but under total yards; 3 above average with 1 exceptional.
Does anyone know why my posts which I’m spending so much time on, say they are “waiting for moderation” when I post and than are being lost forever? I’ve finally gotten smart and am copying elsewhere so not to lose but it sucks .
Y’all don’t know about my perspective on Alexander because that was another long post that was been lost. I don’t know about moderation, that’s new to me.
Brian one can’t evaluate candidate based on what they may have accomplished without injuries, their playing career record is what it is
These RBs need to have multiple all pro seasons and led league in rushing multiple times – otherwise they were not among the best in their era. OJ meets thats standard, Dillion, Alexander, Anderson and Barber simply don’t meet that standard. By no measure is Taylor a shoe in but has been a semi finalist and getting consideration
Another way to look at sorting out the RBs is look at those already in the Hall, gives you a indication of how voters view candidates and voting trends. How many RBs were elected as modern candidates WITHOUT multiple all pro and/or multiple rushing season titles? Its not just a career numbers view but how did they stand out in their era? Plus keeping in mind is how not just how they compare to players like OJ but how do they stand compared to other finalists on the ballot, from all eras and positions? They are not competing against current PFHOF, but are they among the top 5 on the ballot as modern candidate that year (and in future elections).
Youre right Paul …
When Anderson retired, the benchmark for HOF backs was 10,000 yards rushing or 13,000 yards from scrimmage … he did BOTH
Add two SBs, with one MVP and It Is What It Is
What has Floyd Little done ?
Hornung was second banana, got suspended and not a good kicker but gets elected ?
Doak Walker barely played five seasons …
Juss Sayin … haha
It’s just a stat analysis that’s all. I think I’ve evaluated fairly but we can always disagree over the standard set. I think I’ve come up with a fair but not perfect one. It’s easy for people to say X player had a great season because he had a 1,000 yard season. I’m not a believer.
I’m not sure we can say Corey Dillon was better than Fred Taylor base on number of accolades when the other player was performing on the field better. I think RB is probably the easiest of all the positions to evaluate based on stats. It’s the most individual based position.
Its a tough process because there are many productive backs …
Total TDs and Postseason success have to be major factors …
Top Scoring RBs Not In The HOF (Postseason Included)
Peterson … 122 TDs (Future Eligible)
Alexander … 120 TDs
Lynch … 106 TDs + SB (FE)
Gore … 103 TDs (FE)
Watters … 103 TDs + SB
Holmes … 96 TDs + SB
Dillon … 93 TDs +SB
McCoy … 90 TDs + SB (FE)
Anderson … 89 TDs + SB
TonyP in my opinion …
Dillon and Taylor have great cases but I would choose Dillon over Taylor
Dillon played on a bad team before coming to NE, while Taylor played on a good Jax team, that went bad later …
Dillon played better in big games, Taylor got big yardage against weaker teams, though an exciting player …
Taylor was a better receiver but Dillon a better blocker
Dillon has the ring and more overall TDs
Waters is interesting. he checks off a lot of the boxes and was such a big personality during his time in the NFL. I guess if i had to rank in order which senior nominees I would like to “get heard in the room.”
1. Roger Craig
2. Chuck Foreman
3. O.J. Anderson
The players I would like to see nominated before they hit seniors are in this order for me:
1. C. Dillon
2. S. Alexander
3. F. Taylor
4. R. Waters
I agree with you guys. Bill, I like your approach of getting into the room. I can’t pretend to have the knowledge or more importantly the “evidence” on some these closer calls to make a HOF decision. It’s just opinion and everyone has that. Lol!
Yes Brian, TD’s and postseason would be factors but I didn’t consider except in the case a player of TD’s if a RB was close to my above average criteria . If a high number I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
One thing, Roger Craig played fullback for part of his career so I should of evaluated greater curve which would of made him more attractive. I wonder if others are taking that into consideration? For a FB, 800 yards would above average IMO. His 1,000 – 1,000 season from the FB position may be statistically the greatest season ever from the position.? 4.9 a carry and 11 per catch!!
So my system can rule a player as HOF qualified but rule anyone out.
Other than Roger Craig, would anyone disagree with the “Fail” results? We have to remember OJ Simpson had no success in the postseason and his total TD’s weren’t outstanding. He did have a boatload of accolades. We don’t know if he would be a HOFer without them but I suspect he would be seriously in the discussion. Five above average seasons with three exceptional should do that for you as a RB. That said I’m not sure if the standard I created fits well for the RB’s of today? Not going to be concerned with.
Not even a mention of Tiki Barber? He’s got the numbers and accolades should be acceptable. They are for
WR’s. lol
I’ll review a couple more.
Pass – Ricky Watters is over 10,000 but under total yards; 8 above average seasons with 3 exceptional but only one was running the ball. He was very much a dual threat like today’s RB’s. Yes, he belongs in the room of finalists.
Pass- Eddie George is over 10,000 but under total yards; 6 above average seasons with 2 exceptional. No one has ever worked harder for his above average seasons in NFL history. lol He’s a borderline pass on test but a fail. Would have the lowest yds per carry at 3.6 if he made the HOF. A real likable guy but not a HOFer IMO.
Fail – Chuck Foreman – not even only half of OJ’s total yards rushing; was a little ahead of his time as a dual threat; 9,106 combine rush and reception yards; 5 above average seasons with 2 exceptional. I guess if they can put Floyd Little in than why not Foreman with his 3.8 average carry and 109 game career. I’m not a supporter.
Fail – Ricky Williams is above 10,000 yards but below total yards; 5 above average seasons with 2 exceptional; Oh what could of been with no doubt HOF talent.
Your thoughts are valid TonyP and looking at the backs you mentioned, here are my quick thoughts on each …
Barber … has a good case … extremely high number on scrimmage yards, 1st amongst eligible backs
Dunn … has a good case … smallest back ever with over 15,000 scrimmage yards
Walker … has a good case … counting special teams, total yards and USFL numbers … Walker should be in …
George … tough case … yes he was overused like Campbell but the Titans most consistent winning was while he was on the team, not Chris Johnson … like Dillon, Anderson and Bettis, every defence knew he was coming.
Watters … great case … great dual threat, but mouth and anger issues on field held him back
Williams … tough case … retirement from Dolphins hurt his numbers/benefit of a doubt
Holmes … a good case … great production/TD numbers before injury stopped him
Foreman … tough case … Like Sims, Andrews, injuries stopped him too soon.
Jackson … tough case … great career but mostly on bad team, should have been a Cowboy
Lewis … tough case … another power runner like George, Dillon, Lynch but wasnt the same after Ravens
Lynch … good case … Power runner with TDs and postseason numbers
I already believe seniors Anderson, Craig, Haynes and Glichrist of AFL should be in …
Seniors with Cases
Anderson
Craig
Walker
Timmy Brown
Abner Haynes
Cookie Gilchrist
John David Crow
Don Perkins
Thanks Brian, I very much enjoy reading your comments.
Unless its Craig as a recent Centennial Class finalist, we may not see another back reach Canton till Peterson/Gore …
I just hope the next QB enshrined isnt Isbell
Brian, I know you’re a little more liberal about who you think is deserving of HOF. I agree with ALL of your choices with one caveat, I would change most of the “good case” to having a case. I think I could go with Barber and Watters having a good case.
Little and Walker were seniors and Hornung was a terrible pick years ago by different voters, none are really relevant to current modern RB candidates and voting process and trends.
One problem is beyond Gore and Peterson, there really wasn’t dominate RBs in league since 2000, too many with similar cases, none who really stand out above the others. Otis Anderson likely has a senior candidate chance and Taylor as modern finalist, I really don’t see an easy or likely path to election for all the others especially Barber and Dillion.
Ricky Watters? Never AP all pro, never led league in rushing? Too many of these RB lack major career or season accomplishments or stats, most have similar career yards and nothing really separates any from the group. There will likely be 3-4 RBs from 2000s to present elected, ncluding Peterson and Gore, after that the rest will be left out. Sure they will end up as senior candidates along with dozens of others from same era, different positions, good luck getting out of the swamp.
When discussing senior candidates, How about Larry Brown of the Redskins? Oops, can I say “redskins” on here?
Spot on guys …
I will admit, with only 1.5 % of all players who ever played, getting into the HOF, not counting other professional leagues like Canadian or WFL/USFL … I wouldnt have no problem seeing more deserving players rising that percentage up to 2%, like my choices but it will take time from voters.
I always respect your opinions Paul … out of all those RBs TonyP mentioned, including seniors … who would you personally put in the Hall as a voter … whether now, or say, the next ten years ?
Youre right Roger … Larry Brown for the Washington Wokes, has a case as well like McCutcheon for the Rams but injuries shortened his career like Foreman and others
Not to knock the NFL but I personally believe this HOF will outlast the League itself, due to what Mark Cuban said … Fat Pig Greed
So yes, I am liberal at wanting more personal choices in, but over a long period of time, hopefully some of these players will get their chance but it may take FOREVER … haha
RBs Anderson, Craig, Walker, Taylor plus Gore, Peterson, McCoy, maybe Lynch and Alexander
And I think Larry Brown has a very interesting case but short career has hurt
I’ve talked about Brown before. Can’t remember what I said but I’m definitely a fan. A hell of a RB who ran with reckless abandon which may be why he didn’t last although so many players especially RB’s had knee injuries and never returned be the same. Now I remember saying I’d strongly consider guys with short careers like him from that time frame. He was also almost completely deaf. He was a great story! An all time great REDSKIN. I Washington doesn’t get rid of Indian logo although that was a more recent addition. I think a lot of fans took pride in a Team representing the American Indian. I guess we including the Indian Americans should of been more sensitive and offended. I’m sure glad we have people to tell us now. We just shouldn’t be happy about much :) I think Washington will have to leave the Indian alone. No clue what they will rename Team.
Young people can’t tell you what Party the most famous president Abe Lincoln belonged to but they can recite every Founding Father’s position on slavery and how our America sucks now. lol I wish I could say I was impressed. :(
You’re right Brian about the NFL. If they don’t quit selling out to Player’s unpopular positions, there won’t be a League in the future. It’s the fans like me in their 50’s who are saying they can leave it now and we are a big portion. The League won’t crumble in a day but I’m predicting a 10-15% loss of fans and this time they won’t come back like a couple years ago when it was about 5%. I heard one prediction of 25-50% which I kind of doubt. This time is serious with too many factors. One is the virus showing us we can do just fine with reduced sports in our lives. Another is the possible drumbeat from the players of Black Lives Matters, which we now know is a radical Left group having little to do with Blacks in it’s platform. It’s a Trojan horse. And the National Anthem debacle returning with insane hate and lies about the Police. And all the rest of the politics making all whites feel like we are all racists and ZERO accountability for the plight their own people experience. It is insane and if the players try to use their so-called platform on Sunday for this stuff I guarantee they will lose big time. Roger Goodell made a calculated decision to side with the players betting the NFL wouldn’t lose too many fans. We will see! Actually no one knows exactly what to expect. :)
I could get on board with both John David Crow and Larry Brown. To me Chuck Foreman was Just like Eddie George. Te Vikings and Titans relied so much on just one particular player toting the ball.
That’s an interesting comparison between Eddie George and Foreman I hadn’t thought of. I’m not seeing Foreman as the workhorse George was but I don’t know if anyone has come close to him on that? I couldn’t tell you George’s co-RB but I could Foreman with Brent McCallahan and Ricky Young. Seems like there was another name? I didn’t look up so I may be off on spelling. Do you think it was the Viking’s unpredictability that caused a lower ypc? They had Ron Yary and Ed White but if I recall their OL wasn’t one of the bigger ones.
I was hoping to hear some viewpoints from others on the state of the NFL but probably better for another article if created. Y’all know Paul and my view. I could take his position but not right for me. I was however one of the 5% who gave up watching the NFL and came back the next year when they tapped down the rhetoric. This time feels different to me. I’d say I’m 90% out the door but will wait to see what actually happens. If the players insist on the kneeling and pushing BLM making videos for them. oh well. I don’t feel starved to watch football.
All I can say about the state of the NFL is that I have been a fan since 1977 and have heard the doom and gloom predictions about the demise of the league many different times over the years, yet it continues to expand and survive. Perhaps the end is coming but if it does I suspect the same factors will impact CFB, NBA, MLB and even NHL. We act as if the NFL is the only league emerging into a new social cause environment but same goes for other leagues as well. What sustains the NFL (and if you follow revenues and finances, future projections you will see this) is gambling – largely become widespread legal – and fantasy football. At the end of the day, during this season (if there is one) or certainly in the coming years, during the season that is what will drive interest, not the off the field or off season social causes supported by the league and players. Fans always say they are going to leave, but the issues and noise that drive them off always subsides and its the game that brings them back in, plus expansion into streaming and other venues of viewing and promotion continues to capture new fans/attention/revenues. Pro and college sports are changing, but they always have, and I am not suggesting they will be the great social shared experience they were decades ago, but I also don’t think they are going to simply fade away that easily or quickly.
I’ve been a fan since 1971 and I’ve never heard any worry about the NFL until recent years over people thinking it’s too dangerous to play because players are too big and fast. That’s always been a bit of a concern but not like today with the concussion issue. I know the Owners are always concerned with keeping stadium modern but I haven’t of of any struggles by the League financially. Maybe I just wasn’t listening close enough.
I know about the NBA in the late 1970’s and the NHL has had issues seems like for years. Of course the media has bashed major league baseball for years telling us it’s to slow and boring for young people while they somehow manage to pay their players top dollar in sports. Well maybe the NBA is surpassing now but I have a hunch they are headed for hard times.
Tony – Sorry about that–we still have it set to flag comments with more than one link in them (maybe even just one link in them), but I haven’t been able to get it to give me special notifications went comments are awaiting approval.
It’s Ok Tony. Thanks for letting me know.
Indications are that Class of 2021will have 5 moderns, 1 contributor and 1 coach, uncertainly as to whether it will be 1 or 2 seniors. Hall Board is considering options but no final decision has been made nor announced. We may not get conformation until after next Hall Board meeting in early August.
I hope I am wrong, but according to the newest article on talkoffamenetwork, Rick Gosselin speculated only one senior, which is discouraging.
That is the speculation, hoping Gosselin and other voters, especially members of the seniors committee, pressure the Hall to reconsider and set seniors at 2 per year permanently
I made a list of possible HOF candidates. I know I probably missed some players. Please let me know so I can make my list more complete.Paul, I wanted to see if I really come up with 30 Senior players better than Ottis Anderson. lol
The best Senior Players available from each NFL Team
Arizona Cardinals
Jim Hart 0/4, Ernie McMillan 0/4, Mel Gray 1/4 Ottis Anderson 1/2
Atlanta Falcons
Mike Kenn 2/5, Jeff Van Note 0/6, Tommy Nobis 1/5, William Andrews 0/4
Buffalo Bills
Kent Hull 2/3, Fred Smerlas 1/5, Mike Stratton 3/6
Cincinnati Bengals
Lemar Parrish 1/8, Max Montoya 0/4, Ken Riley 1/0, Isaac Curtis 0/4, James Brooks 0/4, Ken Anderson 1/4
Chicago Bears
Steve McMichael 2/2, Jay Hilgenberg 2/7, Johnny Morris 1/1, Richie Petitbon 1/4
Cleveland Browns
Dick Schafrath 4/6, Gene Hickerson 3/6, Greg Pruitt 0/5, Jerry Sherk 1/4, Thom Darden 0/1
Dallas Cowboys
Ralph Neely 2/3, Cornell Green 3/5, Harvey Martin 1/4, Chuck Howley 5/6, Drew Pearson 3/3, Lee Roy Jordan 1/5, John Niland 2/6, Everson Walls 1/4
Denver Broncos
Bill Thompson 1/3, Dennis Smith 0/6, Louis Wright 2/5, Karl Mecklenburg 3/6, Randy Gradishar 2/7,
Tom Jackson 1/3, Rick Upchurch 3/4
Detroit Lions
Wayne Walker 1/3, Billy Sims 0/3, Doug English 1/4
Indianapolis Colts
Bobby Boyd 2/3, Bob Vogel 1/5, Mike Curtis 2/4
Kansas City Chiefs
Ed Budde 2/7, Jim Tyrer 6/9, Otis Taylor 2/3, Jerrel Wilson 0/3, Deron Cherry 3/6
Los Angeles Chargers
John Hadl 1/6, Walt Sweeney 2/9, John Jefferson 2/4
Los Angeles Rams
Eddie Meador 2/6, Lawrence McCutcheon 1/5, Larry Brooks 1/5, Harold Jackson 1/5, Isiah Robertson 2/6,
Rich Saul 0/6, Nolan Cromwell 3/4 Roman Gabriel 1/4 Leroy Irvin 2/2, Henry Ellard 2/3, Doug Smith 0/6,
Jerry Gray 0/4
Miami Dolphins
Bob Kuechenberg 1/6, Jake Scott 2/5, Dick Anderson 2/3, Bob Baumhower 1/5, Bill Stanfill 1/5, Nat Moore 1/1, Mark Clayton 0/5, Mark Duper 0/3, Garo Yepremian 2/2, Reggie Roby 2/3
Minnesota Vikings
Grady Alderman 1/6, Chuck Foreman 1/5, Matt Blair 1/6, Joey Browner 3/6, Steve Jordan 0/6, Scott Studwell 0/2
New England Patriots
Stanley Morgan 0/4, Raymond Clayborn 0/3, Steve Nelson 0/3, Gino Cappelletti 0/5
New Orleans Saints
Dave Waymer – 0/1, Wes Chandler 1/4
New York Giants
Phil Simms 0/2, Brad Van Pelt, Mark Bavaro 2/2, Bart Oates 0/5
New York Jets
Larry Grantham 5/5, Marvin Powell 3/5, Freeman McNeil 1/3, Joe Fields 1/2 Wesley Walker 1/2, Mark Gastineau 3/5, Joe Klecko 2/4
Oakland Raiders
Todd Christiansen 2/5, Art Powell 2/4, Dave Grayson 4/6, Cliff Branch 3/4, Daryle Lamonica 2/5, Lester Hayes 1/5, Jim Plunkett 0/0
Philadelphia Eagles
Al Wistert 4/1, Pete Retzlaff 1/5, Bill Bergy 2/5, Charlie Young 1/3, Charlie Johnson 2/3, Mike Quick 2/5, Bill Bradley 2/3
Pittsburgh Steelers
Roy Jefferson 1/3, LC Greenwood 2/6
San Francisco 49ers
Forrest Blue 2/4, Cedrick Hardman 0/2, Dwight Hicks 0/4, Gene Washington 3/4, Michael Carter 1/3, Jessie Sapolu 1/2, John Brodie 1/2
Seattle Seahawks
Jacob Green 0/2, Joe Nash 1/1, Dave Brown 0/1
Tampa Bay Bucs
Hardy Nickerson 2/5, Jimmy Giles 0/4
Tennessee Titans
Billy “White Shoes” Johnson 1/3, Ray Childress 1/5, Sean Jones 0/1, Chris Dishman 1/2
Washington Redskins
Larry Brown 2/4, Pat Fischer 2/3, Len Hauss 0/5, Joe Jacoby 2/4, Dave Butz 1/1, Charles Mann 0/4, Dexter Manley 1/1, Gary Clark 1/4 Joe Theismann 1/2, Ron McDole 1/2, Jerry Smith 1/2
I’ve changed my mind. I believe Joe Theismann should definitely be in the HOF based on his career numbers being on par with Bob Griese. Like a lot QB’s it took him a 4-5 years to get his feet under him. When he did he could really sling it and he was a good enough QB with the intangibles to deserve a HOF spot. He did it all after the age of 30. IMO he was better than Ken Anderson who many think should make it. I forgive him for a bad SB game against a Raiders team that I doubt many teams would of beaten on that day. He did beat Joe Montana head to head to get there.
I’ve backed off Phil Simms being a good candidate.
It looks like you got it covered Tony. As a Rams fan I think you got them covered. And others I believe have a legit chance of getting in are a included. Though I think Ottis Anderson would definitely be in my top 30 Seniors. But with the curious senior picks of recent history it seems as though whoever has the most convincing HOF committee Backing them then they will get in. (Harold Carmichael). Though he was great and has many Eagles fans thinking he should be in, I believe there were 3 other arguably more deserving. HJackson CBranch, DPearson. I like to see how many top 10’s and their rank at time of retirement as my criteria. I’ve seen too many popularity contests won for AP and PB selections. And the all decade team hurts players that played a great career but split into 2 diff decades. (Henry Ellard , OK I have a Rams bias). I’ll give the nod to great playoff performers. Especially QBs. I appreciate this list and would be willing to give my top 30 but I’d like to hear peopleS top 10 seniors Which should be able to be chosen from Tony’s list. They should def have 2 seniors min per year. The Jimbo Covert and Floyd Little picks could def have 30 picks chosen before those 2. My point is that the bar is lowered with some of these past senior picks and so many more or equally deserving candidates are still available. I’d love to hear next 5 year potential HOF picks. Based on numbers alone there should be 4 First ballot picks but I know the Hall likes to make people wait so they can get others in.
Thanks Ed. Yup a lot of us here agree with your sentiments about the players you listed. I’d add Dick LeBeau 0/3 and Emmitt Thomas 1/5 to the list. Not that they were unreasonable picks but the media and internal forces had a hand in the timing of their selections with the Teams they worked for being in the Super Bowl just prior to their selections. A lot of us were sure disappointed Thomas got picked over his teammate Johnny Robinson in 2009. Not Johnny he’s to good of a man for that. Thank God he made it albeit 10 years later. The timing turned out to be magic for Johnny with the Chief’s winning the SB and all the attention he garnered.
I liked watching Floyd Little towards the end of his career. HOF Running Back have always had a really high standard. There are a lot of Ring of Honor types I’d like in the HOF for my Team too, like Mark Duper, Bob Baumhower and Bill Stanfill. :)
I wasn’t especially a Rams fan in the 1970’s but they weren’t the Cowboys or the Vikings. lol Since they won I saw a lot of their games. Next to Bob Kuechenberg, I don’t think there’s a player I’d like to see in the HOF more the Isiah Robertson. It’s a shame he was tragically killed in a car accident a couple years ago. I also want to see Chuck Knox in the HOF soon. If they ever had a good enough QB the Rams might of been the Team of the 1970’s. An aging John Hadl gave them their best chance IMO.
This is the only film I can find on Isiah Robertson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdIveqdFZI4
Let’s keep in mind that the PFHOF seniors committee did not elect the centennial class including Covert and Carmichael, that was the special blue ribbon panel that included 12 members who were not regular voters. So you can’t compare that process or voters to the traditional seniors committee who historically have had some questionable picks but in recent years very solid selections in Kramer and Robinson
Beyond one great season (1983) I simply don’t see the case for Theismann, he certainly was not better or more deserving then Anderson and not so sure his case is better than Simms.
Class of 2021 modern predictions: Manning (1st ballot), CWoodson (1st ballot), Faneca, Boselli, Lynch….others with great chance- Seymour, Thomas, Butler. Voters are reluctant to elect WRs or short career as 1st ballot so I am predicting Calvin Johnson “Megatron” will wait a few years as will Jared Allen. I don’t see any surprises coming from other returning finalists or semi finalists from 2020 election
I’m not sure how you define great season Paul? Back than 20 TD’s and fewer Int’s the TD’s with a winning record was considered pretty great. How many great seasons did Bob Griese have? Like Griese, Theismann played with the intangibles I like my HOF QB to have. He always had that coming out of Notre Dame but like many young QB’s he had to cut down on the mistakes. If he was less hyper and more cool like Griese it would of served him well but I can say the same with Griese if he had Theismanns’s fire. Plus he had to overcome Billy Kilmer, a very serviceable QB. I didn’t see a winner’s confidence with Ken Anderson despite the him having the talent and subsequently he isn’t in the top 50 QB’s in the Playoffs. I think your Cowboy bias is showing. :) I don’t know if he makes HOF but I wouldn’t be surprised.
TonyP- Thanks for sharing that list. A few observations if you don’t mind.
A) Gene Hickerson of the Browns is already in the HOF
B) I would add Ken Gray to Cardinals
C) Tom Sestack to Bills
D) Gene lipscomb and Chris Hinton to Colts
E) Ron Francis to Patriots
F) Del Shofner and Jim Katcavage to Giants
Theismann had one great season (All pro, MVP, SB), Griese has two seasons with all pro, MVP, and SBs.
Anderson didn’t win a SB but unlike Theismann he had multiple seasons as all pro and led league multiple times in passing rating, yards and completion %
TonyP- Just to round out the Vikings line…besides Yary and White, they had Alderman who was very good and Tinglehoff who is a Hofamer,
Thanks Bill! I will add those names to my MS Word Doc. I knew I missed some of the older ones and maybe included some really long shots but I didn’t know them too well or at all . I was surprised I didn’t know of Alderman with all those Pro Bowls.
Thanks Paul. I didn’t realize Griese had won MVP for ’77 season. I’m a little surprised 22 TD’s and 13 Ints got him that. He had 6 of those TD’s versus the Cardinals on Thanksgiving. So 16 TDs and 13 Ints the other 13 games. One of I believe, only two games the Cowboys haven’t played on that day.
I think you mean Russ Francis. I thought about him but some were hard to include when I knew them pretty well and didn’t think they were HOFers. lol Francis was all – world his first couple years then fell off the map to be claimed by the 49ers. He was some kind of awesome like this huge catching machine when he hit the NFL scene. The Terminator!! lol . Being a Dolphin fan I really didn’t like him. He ended up really good by the end of his time with the 49ers but never quite what he was before, although a valuable player weapon for them. Hard pressed to see him as a HOFer with his inconsistency but he redeemed himself to have a decent career and a SB.
There sure are a lot of Vikings in the HOF from the 60’s and 70’s. More than Packers and Chiefs? I should add up. lol I wouldn’t count the Steelers because a few of their players played too far into the 1980’s.
I included Jesse Sapolu 0/2 because he was part of 4 SB’s but he didn’t start all of them like I thought. He made PB at LG and C in back to back years and was a huge part of 49ers OL for years with his versatility. I think he’s got a shot.
I think I ran across a one -time PBer in my research who made the HOF. I’ll have to see if I can find name.
I’m fairly certain John Riggins made one PB and was a one time All-Pro, if that is who you are talking about?
I don’t think Riggins made even one PB, but was first team all pro in 1983 and won the Bert Bell Award that year (NFL POY), plus the SB MVP. He made the 1980s all decade team and became only 2nd RB to have 100 career rushing TDs. He held the Most rushing attempts and rushing yards in a single postseason and remains among the leaders for most career playoff rushing yards and TDs (both still 7th all time).
In my view Riggins is one of the weakest cases for the PFHOF in terms of overall career numbers and accomplishments, but I would caution using an exception (his election) to justify others that don’t have any pro bowls or just one all pro selection. The Hall should not continue to elect players with those qualifications but instead maintain a higher standard, especially considering we all know that there are many deserving modern and senior candidates who have multiple all pro selections yet not elected to date.
If you look at the senior pool of candidates with multiple all pro selections (my list has 40+), I simply don’t see the value of considering cases with none (Jesse Sapolu), only adds to a longer list especially considering only 1-2 per year can be elected. It’s the same reason my list doesn’t include Jim Plunkett (2 SBs, SB MVP) as voters would have to ignore many other players with better career numbers and accomplishments to elect him and I think that is fundamentally wrong.
I thought this person played in the 50’s and 60’s with no AP and 1 PB. I’ll try to find. I agree with your fundamentals Paul but I do think although very rare their may be a player overlooked because some AP’s get locked in too long.
I agree with Tony. I know most of you hat Jim Covert’s election. But I have read from a number of Sources that Jackie Slater received a number of PB berths that should have really gone to Covert. He graded out much higher in some of those years. There was a season where Covert had 1 false start, no holdings and did not allow a sack, while Neal Anderson was one of the leading rushers in the NFC. He also man-handled Reggie White in a one one match-up. That same year White destroyed Slater and Slater gave up double digit sacks.
I’m telling you guys, you cannot completely rely on PB’s or even all-Pro’s
I don’t have a problem if the player has only 1 AP for the reason I stated. Sometimes it’s hard to break through when there’re are top tier HOFers. I do believe there is a place for other great players who aren’t the best in their time. But they should receive the utmost scrutiny. I’m not sure that is always successful.
I agree that number of AP and PBs are far from a prefect tool but they remain an important factor that are considered by voters and every career metrics I have seen in evaluating potential PFHOFers use them, so they can’t easily be dismissing especially cases where a player has few or none. They become more important when comparing players across different eras and positions and when game film and determining players ratings are not always easy or even possible. The fact that so few PFHOFers have one or no APs or PBs is evidence for the importance they play.
Than how did did Riggins and Covert get in? How is Maxie Baughan not in? My point is, it should take scrutiny, no matter how many Pro Bowls or All-Pro’s or All-Decades, or even how many or few Super Bowls a player has performed. All of those, along with stats and film study and even in person anecdotes should be considered.
Both Covert and Riggins were all pro selections and all decade team members. And yes every candidate deserves scrutiny and review of all their accomplishments and achievements as you listed. My only point here (which seems to be missed) is that it is very difficult to be elected – and there are very few examples of candidates – without all pro or pro bowl selections to their name. Its hard to consider any candidate with no all pro or pro bowls when so may other deserving candidates have them on their resume.
And Maxie Baughan is in my top 10 seniors list and is an example of my point that many deserving players with multiple all pro and pro bowls should be considered more than a candidate with NONE of EITHER. Why is he not elected? Good question, and same for:
LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s (2020F)
LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2020F)
WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s (2020F)
G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s (2020F)
WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4 (2020F)
OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s (2020F)
CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
and etc……
Great research guys … I personally would like to see at least two seniors elected every year to the HOF but we may not get it because the contributor category seems to want certain owners/commisioners elected at the expense of other players, and the HOF could continue to alternate the yearly process …
Lets hope the voters can be persuaded to keep two seniors elected each year and come up with a better plan for coaches/contributors but we will see …
I would hate for another Rooney or Modell to get in the HOF before a Chuck Howley or Al Wistert …
My Senior candidates rankings:
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
2. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s (2020F)
3. LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2020F)
4. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s (2020F)
5. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s (2020F)
6. WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4 (2020F)
7. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s (2020F)
8. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
9. CB/S Eddie Meador RAMS (4)/6/60’s
10. DB Jimmy Patton NYG 5(1)/5/60s
11. RB Roger Craig SF (1)/3/80s (2020F)
12. Tommy Nobis ATL 1(1)/5/60s (2020F)
13. WR Del Shofner LAR/NYG 5/5/60s
14. Verne Lewellen 3xNFLchamp (2020F)
15. CB Lester Hayes OAK 1(5)/5/80s
16. LB Larry Grantham NYJ 5(5)/60s
17. OL Dick Schafrath CLEV 4/6
18. FB Pat Harder CHI/DET 3(3)/2/MVP/40s
19. LB Karl Meckenburg 4/6
20. DL Joe Klecko NYJ 2/4
21. OL Walt Sweeney SAN 2(4)/9/60s
22. QB Ken Anderson CIN 1(2)/4/MVP
23. DE L.C.Greenwood PITTS 2/6/70’s
24. OT Joe Jacoby WASH 2(1)/4 80s
25. G Bob Kuechenberg MIA 2/6
26. CB Ken Riley CIN 4/0
27. F Otis Taylor KC 3/3/60s
28. OG Ed Budde KC 2(2)/7 60s
29. WR Sterling Sharpe GB 3/5
30. LT Jim Tyrer KC 6/9/60
31. LB Joe Fortunato CHI 3(3)/5/50s
32. WR/K Gino Cappelletti 0(4)/5/AFL MVP
33. WR Charlie Hennigan 4(5)
34. RB John David Crow 2(1)/4/60s
35. HB Beattie Feathers CHI 30s
36. OL George Christenson DET 30s
37. FB Bill Osmanski CHI 1(1)/3/40s
38. LB Mike Curtis BALT 2/4
39. OL Riley Matheson CLEV 5
40. DB Everson Walls 3/4
41. QB Roman Gabriel 1(1)/4/MVP
42. QB Cecil Isbell GB 30s (2020F)
43. WR Isaac Curtis CIN 3/4
44. WR Harold Jackson 1(1)/5
45. OT George Kunz ATL 1(3)/8
I feel pretty good about my top 10 (could always move a few around), same for 11-20. With 21 to 45 pretty easy to make cases for different order there. At this point anyone chosen from my top 10 would be fine by me, but hopefully we are looking at 2 a year and not just 1. If you really feel strongly about 2 seniors a year, best approach is to express that to the members of senior committee and plead with them to push HOF Board to set seniors at 2 per election. Members of that committee are:
Dan Pompei, The Athletic
Rick Gosselin, Talk of Fame Network
Jeff Legwold, ESPN/ESPN.com
John McClain, Houston Chronicle
Ron Borges, Talk of Fame Network
Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange
Ira Kaufman, JoeBucsFan.com
John Czarnecki, FOX Sports
Ira Miller, The Sports Xchange
Several are active on social media, and Gosselin and Borges are on Talk of Fame Network, especially on their website where they post stories (and even occasionally reply to posts from fans) Clark Judge is also interested in senior elections and is on the full committee, but not member of the seniors committee-he is also active on Talk of Fame Network. So make an effort to reach out to them and ask them to press HOF Board for 2 seniors each election.
I love your list Paul! I have a list as well but I do it by position
here is mine:
QB
1. Ken Anderson
2. John brodie
3. John Hadl
4. Phil Simms
5. Roman Gabriel
6. Jim Hart
7. Charlie Conerly
RB
1. Roger Craig
2. Chuck Foreman
3. Otis Anderson
4. Larry Brown
5. Chuck Muncie
6. John David Crow
FB
1. Rick Caseras
2. Cookie Gilchrist
3. Jim Nance
TE
1. Pete Retzlaff
2. Todd Christensen
3. Jerry SMith
3. Fred Arbanas
5. Russ Francis
6. Mark Bavaro
7. Raymond Chester
8. Ron Kramer
9. Elbie Nickel
C
1. Jay Hilgenberg
2. Jon Morris
3. Rich Saul
4. Jeff Van Note
5. Tom Banks
6. Len Hauss
7. Bob DeMarco
8. Ray Wietecha
G
1. Bob Kuenchenberg
2. Walt Sweeney
3. Ed Budde
4. Dick Barwegan
5. Ken Gray
6. Jim Ray Smith
7. Duane Putnam
8. Bill Fralic
9. John Niland
10. Gale Gillingham
11. Dennis Harrah
12. Kent Hill
13. Ed White
14. Doug Wilkerson
15. Randy Cross
16. Howard Mudd
17. Conrad Dobler
T
1. Jim Tyrer
2. George Kunz
3. Joe Jacoby
4. Mike Kenn
5. Russ Washington
6. Chris Hinton
7. Marvin Powell
8. Leon Gray
9. Ralph Neely
10. Dick Schafrath
11 Grady Alderman
WR
1. Cliff Branch
2. Harold jackson
3. Drew pearson
4. Sterling Sharpe
5. Billy Wilson
6. Billy Howton
7. Stanley Morgan
8. Otis Taylor
9. Gino Cappalletti (also a K)
10. Del Shofner
11 Gary Clark
12. Boyd Dowler
13. Art Powell
14. Charley Hennigan
15. Mark Clayton
16. Lionel Taylor
17. Billy Johnson (mostly as a returner)
18. Gary Collins
19 Mel Gray
LB
1. Chuck howley
2. Randy Gradishar
3. Maxie Baughan
4. Karl Mecklinburg
5. Mike Curtis
6. Tommy Nobis
7. Larry Grantham
8. Lee Roy Jordan
9. Andy Russell
10. Isiah Robertson
11. Bill Bergey
12. Wilber Marshall
13. Joe Fortunato
14. Matt Blair
15. Mike Stratton
16. Carl Banks
17. Bill Forester
18. George Webster
19. Brad Van Pelt
DE
1. L.C. Greenwood
2. Gene Brito
3. Jim Marshall
4, Harvey Martin
5. Mark Gastineau
6. Al “Bubba”Baker
7. Coy Bacon
8. Earl Faison
9. Rich “tombstone” jackson
10 Verlon Biggs
11. Cedric Hardman
12. Bil Stanfill
13. Jerry Mays
14. Lyle Alzado
15 George Andrie
16. Norm Willey
17. Jim Katcavage
18. Jack Gregory
19. Ed “Too Tall” Jones
20. Jacob Green
21. Gerry Philbin
22. Bubba Smith
DT/NT
1. Roger Brown
2. Joe Klecko
3. Houston Antwine
4. Steve mcMichael
5. Tom Sestak
6. Eugene “Big Daddy” Lipscomb
7. Fred Smerlas
8. Bob Baumhower
9. Bob Gain
10. Rosey Grier
11. Jerry Sherk
12. Gary “Big Hands” Johnson
13. Keith Millard
14. larry Brooks
15. Ernie Ladd
CB
1. Bobby Boyd
2. Lester Hayes
3. Everson walls
4. Lemar parrish
5. Dave Grayson
6. Pat Fischer
7. Louis Wright
8. Cornell Green
9. Ken Riley
10. Erich Barnes
S
1. Eddie Meador
2. Deron Cherry
3. Jimmy patton
4. Jake Scott
5. Nolan Cromwell
6. Dick Anderson
7. Dennis Smith
8. Jack Tatum
9. Don Doll
10. Joey Browner
11. Dwight Hicks
12. George Saimes
K/P
1. Jim Bakken
2. Tommy Davis
3. Jerrell Wilson
Admittedly most of these players are the Hall of Very Good. But All of them had Hall of fame moments, hall of fame years, hall of fame stretch’s…and more than a few had Hall of Fame Careers. It will never happen but i hope all of these players get their chance infront of the committee. It is Ok if the committee deems them unworthy, but they deserve their chance.
thats a good (and long list), I find once you get around 40 or so it just becomes a collection of many players with little to separate them plus very unlikely to ever be elected, one has to draw a line somewhere and 40-50 seems reasonable to me
“When the Pro Football Hall-of-Fame board of trustees has its annual meeting on Aug. 7, it’s expected to answer a question you’ve been asking and we’ve been dodging for at least a year.
What’s next for seniors?” Is it to be 1 or 2 slots per election year??
https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/hall-of-fame-seniors-waiting-on-canton
That was a great article Paul- Thanks for sharing.
I had a list a while back but I’m not doing it again! Lol Good job you guys. Now I’ll have to pick apart. lol Just kidding. :)
I can be a little critical of Bill’s because he’s ranking by position but not too much. Bill, is your’s most deserving or is the best available at the position? Looks like most deserving because you have Eddie Meador at top. I don’t know if he was the best of the group?
I don’t know Tommy Davis? You don’t have Garo for the most memorable SB play by a Kicker? lol The Dolphins should of won 17-0 with 17-0 record. Would a could a should a right. :)
Nice to see you have Jack Tatum on your list. I’ll be back I have to go.
Great Lists and jobs guys …
I will take a page from Bill and list my Top Seniors for the PHOF …
Some players didnt have the accolades or All-Pro/Pro Bowl designations like Paul’s choices but SHOULD have had them, which is subjective anyway.
Winning/Postseason counts for my lists as well.
Seniors By Position
QBs
Conerly
Simms
Gabriel
Thompson/Anderson
RB/FB
Anderson
Craig
Walker/Watters
Haynes/Lewellen
WR/SE/Flankers
Branch
Pearson
Howton
Benton/Sharpe
TEs
Retzlaff
Bavaro
Francis
Nickel
OT
Tyrer
Wistert
Washington
Kenn/Jacoby
OG
Sweeney
Kuechenberg
Budde/Young
White/Wilkerson
OC
Macek
Hull
Hilgenberg
DeMarco
DE
Brito
Katcavage
Hardman
Greenwood/Andrie
DT/NT
Brown
Sestak
Brooks
Smerlas/Reid
MLB/ILB
Gradishar
Jordan
Curtis
Bergey/Mecklenburg
OLB
Howley
Baughan
Marshall/Fortunato
Blair/Joyner
FS/SS
Robinson
Cromwell
Anderson/Cherry
Grayson/Meador
CB
Lewis
Parrish
Woodson
Wright/Barnes
Special teams is omitted from this list
Yes- my list is in order per position. I like your list Brian we feel the same about a number of plyers. I go back and forth on Mike Reid.
Personally I love Garo, but not sure he was HOF worthy. I liked him and Nick lowery, but I belive Lowery has 1 more year before he is a senior.
Thanks Bill …
I know Reid didnt play long enough but he was dominant like Sestak and felt he was a someone for voters to look at …
I wanted to add some more players like Lester Hayes but tried to keep the number around four or five per position …
Mike Reid? Is their film study or data analytics on him?? The BRP started with 200 seniors to be considered for the centennial class, I suppose with a number that high he was at least “looked at”.
He was your classic very good ball player, but short career player of the 70’s. i believe he went into the music business because he could make more money and not have to deal with injuries anymore. There is a little bit of youtube game film on him.
and you expect among the dozens deserving consideration, a player with a 5 year career should be “looked at’????
Yeah, I thought Reid went to three pro bowls in five years but I was wrong … Jethro Pugh of Dallas had great sack numbers as well for a DT.
I sure hope the HOF committees don’t adopt the one senior-one coach- one contributor yearly approach …
By 2030 there won’t be any worthy coaches/contributors left …
Senior committee starts with preliminary list over 100, vote down to 15 to be consider and then the 1-2 nominated as finalists. Is really hard to get into that list of 15
I would love to know who was on that preliminary list
Hall never publicity releases the preliminary or finalists lists of the senior candidates, occasionally members of the committee mention names of those considered but all we really know are those selected as finalists
It’s a pretty comprehensive list and anyone, including fans can nominate candidates to be placed on the list
My Garo comment was more tongue and cheek. I know it’s going to be very tough for any Senior Kicker or Punter to make HOF. Some Kickers made a name for themselves and were pretty good. Bakken is a good choice if I had to pick just one. Mark Mosely is another. One of the best kickers I remember for a brief stretch when he came on the scene was Rafael Septien.
Mike “radar” Reid was a pretty good golfer :) and the name Tommy Davis was a sprinter and baseball player but I don’t think of football. I think I recall Reid playing for the Bengals in the 1970’s.
Bill, Jim Hart 0/4 is a better HOF candidate than Joe Theismann ? Hmm. I guess this is a case of height of achievement versus length of career. I don’t know if any consideration goes to his career end coming abruptly like Drew Pearson? Probably not. I really liked Jim Hart and the Cards being my favorite team in the Eastern Division rooted for him. :) But was not mobile and had one of the better OL only being sacked a record 6 times in a season. He had an Offensive guru HC and his highest TD total was 20 one time.
I had Phil Simms 0/2 ever so slightly ahead of Theismann 1/2 but now have reversed. Would you agree there isn’t much separation?
I like Theismann and he was one of my favorite players of the early 80’s. But those were his best years by far,,,82,83 and 84. People remember his career ending abruptly because of Taylor, but the fact was at the time of his injury, he was the worst QB in the NFL (rating wise) and their were thoughts of replacing him before that game even took place. To me Hart was slightly better. I group Thetsmann with Lamonica, Bert Jones and Brian Sipe. I believe Simms had a much better career without nearly the weapons Theismann had.
I might be sentimental on Hart but he was the franchise and took them out of the doldrums.
Your right about Hart taking them to the next level. He had one really good year. His bug a boo were Ints. throughout his career. The really good QB’s can avoid them usually after they are in the league for a while. I suspect is inability to move well caused some of that from the pressure of teeing off on him. I’m no expert on John Hadl but I recall he didn’t move real well either. Their TD to Int. ration is somewhat similar. Both were really good passers.
I was wondering if you would bring up. :) Theismann was having a garbage season at the time of his injury. We don’t know if he would of regrouped or not. I don’t think is was washed up but who knows?
Most deserving Seniors for HOF
QB
1. Nobody is my name. :)
RB
1. Roger Craig
2. Ottis Anderson
3. Chuck Foreman
4. William Andrews
5. Larry Brown
TE
1. Todd Christensen
2. Riley Odoms
3. Pete Retzlaff
C
1. Jay Hilgenberg
2. Jon Morris
3. Jeff Van Note
G
1. Bob Kuenchenberg
2. Walt Sweeney
3. Ed Budde
4. John Niland
5. Dennis Harrah
T
1. Jim Tyrer
2 Joe Jacoby
3. Mike Kenn
WR
1. Otis Taylor
2. Cliff Branch
3. Harold Jackson.
4. Drew Pearson
5. Del Shofner
6. Mark Clayton
7. Gary Clark
8. Art Powell
9. Mel Gray
LB
1. Chuck Howley
2. Randy Gradishar
3. Maxie Baughan
4. Mike Curtis
5. Larry Grantham
6. Lee Roy Jordan
7.. Isiah Robertson
8. Bill Bergey
9. Mike Stratton
10. Matt Blair
DE
1. L.C. Greenwood
2. Harvey Martin
3. Al Bubba Baker
4. Mark Gastineau
DT/NT
1. Roger Brown
2. Steve McMichael
3. Joe Klecko
4. Fred Smerlas
5. Bob Baumhower – outside chance was the best technically at NT position .
CB
1. Lemar Parrish
2. Cornell Green
3. Louis Wright
4. Lester Hayes
5. Pat Fischer
6. Everson Walls
7. Bobby Boyd – wanted to put him #1 but didn’t because of shorter career.
8. Ken Riley
9. Dave Grayson
S
1. Jimmy Patton
2. Jake Scott
3. Eddie Meador
4. Deron Cherry
5. Dick Anderson
6. Joey Browner
7. Jack Tatum – no way in hell but was good enough
K/P
1. Jim Bakken
2. Mark Moseley
3. Jerrell Wilson
Ret.
1. Billy Johnson
2. Rick Upchurch
We have similar lists TonyP- I will have to take a closer look at Mark Moseley. I have been back and forth on Riley Odoms over the years, and will have to revisit him. Quick question. If injuries never derailed their careers, who would have had a better career, Billy Sims or William Andrews?
Everybody has great lists which proves we all agree that there are at least 40 or more deserving candidates that could/should get eventually elected, especially with a two seniors per year format.
I was close to adding names like Christensen, Jackson, Powell, Martin, Baker, McMichael, Boyd, Riley, Patton and Scott myself but its so close with a lot of guys …
I guess you backed off Theismann TonyP …
Theismann, Plunkett, Hart and Simms probably wont make it but they are all intriguing cases because they played in such competitive eras, especially a powerful NFC Eastern Division.
Of the three East QBs, Simms had the best defence but the fewest offensive weapons, Hart had the most weapons but couldnt win a playoff game and Theismann, like Plunkett, were late bloomers. Plunkett proved how good he could be with a supporting cast going 38 – 19 during the reg seasons with the Raiders but 8-2 in the postseason and 4-0 in championship games as the Raiders were the only victorious AFC team in 80s SB’s. Plunkett barely missed my list but if Eli Manning eventually gets elected, Plunkett should be reheard as well.
I know youre question was for TonyP, Bill but I personally think that with the election of T Davis, that Sims like Sharpe and Reid has a short career case as well with Andrews just barely on the outside but both would have made it without the injuries. Sims was the more explosive back of the two but Andrews was more complete with his blocking ability.
These players to me, have short career cases similiar to Terrell Davis, without the accolades, postseason stats or two SBs …
Cecil Isbell
Harlon Hill
Alan Ameche
Abner Haynes
Cookie Gilchrist
Charlie Hennigan
Tom Sestak
George Sauer Jr
Warren Wells
Don Perkins
Bobby Boyd
Rich Jackson
Mike Reid
Robert James
Billy Sims
William Andrews
Sterling Sharpe
John Offerdahl
Tony Boselli
Patrick Willis
Luke Kuechly
Great list. I would add George Webster to that list. He played a little longer but was only a shell of himself after he was hurt in his 3rd year. He was going to be awesome! John Jefferson could be on this list as well.
Bill, William Andrews but hard to say; both were studs, Billy a little more sensational. Brian is right about Andrews being the more complete back. I find it interesting he played FB at 206 lbs. But for a shortened season in 1982, Andrews could of had 3 consecutive 2,000 yd seasons from scrimmage. Having two in a career is remarkable enough. Amazing he didn’t make All Pro at least one time. The late 70’s-early 80’s was absolutely the best time for RB’s in NFL history IMO. He never had an average year unless you consider his rookie year and still pretty good for a rookie. I think he suffered from lack of media exposure down there in Atlanta. I know I rarely saw their games. The only knock would be his 30 TD’s.
I did back off Theismann Brian. There are some QB’s I wouldn’t have a big issue with in the Hall but if I’m honest I can’t say any of them had such a good career they need to be in the HOF. I’ve returned to my old thinking that Phil Simms 0/2 has the best case due to the consistency of his career and he delivered in the biggest moment. Even though he struggled some early on he garnered a lot of respect for being a tough guy and than like was said he didn’t have the best weapons. I think he can get past his weak accolade case because he played in a time of maybe the greatest QB play ever. I can see his election. Harder for me to see Ken Anderson in the 70’s but wouldn’t shock me. I’m not a supporter though.
It’s my opinion, other than the skill positions on Offense, no one else should have a short career case. Than you get into what is the cut off for a short career. I’m thinking 125 games for positions that run a lot like DB’s and LB’s. I like HOF OL players to play the longest. Jimbo Covert and Dwight Stephenson would not be in my HOF and neither would Tony Boselli. I know it’s harsh when a severe injury is involved but I want to see great skill and durability.
I tried to keep it eight years or less but wanted to add Webster, Bubba Smith, Marv Hubbard, and of course Bo Jackson, who was the only runner who made me hold my breath when he broke a long run. Eddie George was close too, crossing 10,000 yards his first eight years before wearing out.
The Packers are interesting … Jefferson for whatever reason regressed, along with Antonio Freeman after signing a big contract and Robert Brooks I thought, would have had a great career without injuries.
Doesn’t it seem easier to accept a short career if the player gets hurt and quits shortly after? Does anyone remember if Larry Brown hurt his knee of did he just get really banged up and lost a step? He played with such reckless abandon hurdling opponents to get every yard. His MVP year was some kind of special.
Mark Moseley has to be the only Kicker to win League MVP?
Surprised you thought about Dwight Stephenson that way TonyP … Whenever I watched him, I thought he was dominant.
Offerdahl I thought was as talented as Zack Thomas but wasnt the same after his first five seasons due to injuries. Larry Brown was the same way. If Simms had kept Bavaro from 85-94, they would both be in the HOF … Bavaro had a short but great career as well. The Giants played their best football when he was in the lineup.
The only senior kickers I would consider for the HOF is Cappelletti, Lowery and Gary Anderson with Jerrell Wilson, Vern Lewellen(Over 50 TDs as well) and Tommy Davis as punters.
“ These players to me, have short career cases similiar to Terrell Davis, without the accolades, postseason stats or two SBs …“
Seems like that makes TDs case much more stronger than the others ??
Haha … thats right Paul but some people still dont believe postseason results matter enough in evaluating a HOF career and Davis PROVES that it does, though the accolades helps as well.
Yes, he and Sayers have unique cases but some of these other short career players like Bavaro, Boyd, Perkins, Haynes, Sauer, Gilchrist, Hennigan, Sestak have championships or postseason numbers that help their cases as well …
I have been watching Buffalo Bills games during the Jim Kelly era again recently, trying to figure out why they didnt win at least one Super Bowl and its amazing the combination of things that led to their futility.
In 1988 they became a better team with the additions of Thurman Thomas, Bennett and players like Kelly, Reed, Talley, Burroughs and Tasker, getting better and better. They played bad against the Bengals in the AFC Champ game but were on their way …
In 89 expectations were high but they became the Bickering Bills and it was a tough season as they lost a shootout to the Browns in the playoffs that had them decide on using a hurry up offence that set up their great 90 season …
A great 90 season for Kelly, Thomas, Reed, Lofton the offensive line and a turnover producing defence …
The Bills probably should have beaten the Giants in the SB but the pressure of the big game got to them. With 10-3 and 12-3 leads, Reed dropped some critical balls that could have given the Bills a big lead before halftime.
The defence gets worn down by RB Anderson and Hostetler during the second half, which enables the Giants to take the lead but thanks to Thurman Thomas critical runs, the Bills have a chance to win the game.
Unfortunately, Kelly and Marv Levy butcher the clock the last forty seconds of the game and rather than Kelly taking over the game, getting closer for a TD or shorter FG, they put the game in the hands of Norwood who hardly ever kicked a FG longer than 45 yrds in an outdoor stadium. A crushing missed FG and loss.
Despite great seasons in 91, 92 and 93 with Kelly playing reasonably well in the AFC Champ games for the Bills, Kelly had horrible SB games throwing only two TDs against the Redskins, after the game had already became a blowout, and not throwing a TD in the other three SB games. The defence was bad as well against superior NFC teams but despite deserving the HOF, Kelly had tough SB games, where the pressure of winning affected the whole team.
Hard to know but also possible the MVP, 2xOPOY and 3x all pro likely would have gotten TD in Hall even without playoffs but playoffs stats and awards are part of the game and hence part of his accomplishments. I continue to maintain that without at least multiple all pro seasons and all decade team selection short career players are unlikely to get in as really hard to choose them over players with similar accomplishments during longer career
I know Brian, that’s a tough stand on a player like Stephenson who excelled. I’m thinking the Dolphins should of ran the ball more often behind him and Kooch. I thought about making exception for the Center position.. When you’re able to stand out in that position you’re pretty damn good.
Yup, the Giants were the Bills best chance at a SB win. Giants had the perfect game plan to chew up the clock and the Bills made too many mistakes being it was their first SB. I loved the result. lol Just like I loved the Broncos beating the Packers. :)
I hated the Vikings losing to Atlanta. Gary Anderson was too good to blow that one. How good was that Vikings team? I’m pretty sure RB Robert Smith would of been in the 10,000 rushing club if he hadn’t of retired at 28. He was a starter late but she ended up as one of the very best. 5.2 ypc for a season and 4.8 for a career is nothing to sneeze at. I guess it makes a difference if they quit as opposed to go out with injury? He needed just a little more. :)
That was a question I had, to me it looks worse when a player like Larry Brown hangs on for 3 or 4 years ending in mediocrity than if the end is more of a clear cut buy injury aka Billy Sims and William Andrews. I wonder if it matters? I guess it’s not much of a question considering very few short careers make HOF. lol Everyone knew Gale Sayers was something they hadn’t seen before and feel in love with him. Here’s a hypothetical, would Sayers’ career be a HOF one today? Would we be so wowed by his running style? I suspect not. Now we’ve seen just about every type of RB. Numbers are a bigger deal unless you have the success of a TD. Even with him the number 2,000 was very important.
In addition to his running style, Sayers also led league in rushing twice plus was best KR in league during his 5x first team all pro seasons all the while playing for one of the worse teams in the league. Have to think such production and achievements today would draw similar accolades today and PFHOF
Youre right TonyP, Robert Smith was on his way to a great career before retiring to become I think, a doctor …
Unfortunately, that Atlanta game also had mistakes by Smith, as he ran out of bounds stopping the clock too many times, with the Vikings trying to build that ten point lead before Anderson missed the kick.
Friends of mine blame the loss on the Vikings defence for allowing the Falcons to tie it up in the final two minutes but had Smith stayed in bounds regardless of the kick, Atlanta wouldnt have had much time to score.
That game I believe was the first time a 15-1 team failed to make the Super Bowl. Since then, a number of teams winning 14 plus games have failed to reach, including Baltimore last year.
I still believe Anderson was a great kicker and deserves future induction but he may not make it. Beating Atlanta and possibly Denver in the SB might have gotten Cunningham in as well.
Good points Paul. My question feels like deja vu. lol
I wish I had your memory Brian. :) I did remember they were 15-1 and I think you’re right being the only one to not make SB. I don’t think any 15-1 team has lost in the SB either. Of course Patriots were better than that. Maybe the Raiders vs. Bucs?
I think Robert Smith’s last game was a bad loss to the Giants in the playoffs. It’s well known Smith had a battle with alcoholism which may of been a factor for leaving. I liked him on the College Football show on ESPN. Not sure what he’s doing now.
Likely only first team all decade kickers or all time career point leaders will ever be elected into the Hall, Adam Vinatieri being next ones at some point. Gary Anderson (2x second team all decade, retired first in career point) is deserving but appears he was bypassed over for Morten Anderson. Like punters and special team players their selections will be rare and special, I just don’t envision at time when the voters will select them regularly over full time players on same ballot.
Maybe I didn’t remember Bob Griese’s MVP because it wasn’t an AP MVP? I wonder why they had two? Roger Staubach’s was a Bert Bell Award also. The AP carries more value?
Staubach didn’t even make All Pro in the year he won but did quarterback his team to 10 and a SB win. I think that was a popularity prize. Same with Bob Griese’s award. Probably will be viewed racist today lol to give Alan Page and Walter Payton those awards. Maybe they will have to give back. :) More likely QB bias that still exists. I wonder if a Defensive player can still win MVP?
Of course I meant, NOT to give Page and Payton Bert Bell Award.
Revisionist history is everywhere in society now. Nothing would surprise me.
Looking back at everyones reaction to Jimbo Covert being elected to the HOF, I basically agreed, thinking he was good to great but not a Hall Of Fame player because Walter Payton made all of his linemen look good.
Did you guys know that Covert was the only member of the Centennial Class, that was not a member of the Pro Football Researchers Association Hall Of Very Good ?
In fact he bypassed eight other tackle members …
RIP Regis Philbin and John Saxon
I grew up watching Saxon movies and roles he did on television …
When he played the Robot, later Maskatron on The Six Million Dollar Man, that to me, was the greatest hour in science fiction television history …
I remember John Saxon too. He did a lot of guest appearances on TV. Seems like he did the Rockford Files some. I’ll have to go to IMDB to see what he did.
I don’t know if ZoneBlitz did this number but one of the toughest has to be, who was the best number 12? I’ve got Griese, Staubach and Bradshaw off the top of my head. Of course 12, 39 and 42 were my favorite numbers growing up. lol
I knew it! Saxon was the Lt. in Nightmare on Elm Street. :) Add John Brodie, Ken Stabler and Jim Kelly to 12 list. Oh man I forgot TB 12!! OK who was the second best ? Lol
12 was definitely the best number to have when I grew up.
Joe Namath wore 12. After the 70’s you have to be great to wear 12 and hardly anyone does now .I guess QB’s coming into the League are intimidated by the number. Not Tom Brady!!!
Staubach and Namath popularized the number in college and carried it over to the Pros where Griese, Bradshaw and Stabler wore it as well … Ferguson of Buffalo had it too but wasnt that good of a QB. Be interesting to see if Luck wears the number for a team next year ?
I haven’t had Luck is returning. Charley Johnson wore 12 also.
Still amazes me when I look up all of these old football players that so many are alive into their 80’s. Just with all the talk about CTE one might think it wouldn’t be so. Maybe CTE is a more new phenomenon but I wouldn’t think so with so many players of old talking about getting their bell rung.
What is the life expectancy of a person with CTE?
Some researchers believe the severity of the disease might correlate with the length of time a person spend participating in the sport. Unfortunately, a 2009 analysis of 51 people who experience CTE found the average lifespan of those with the disease is just 51 years.Nov 28, 2013
Can CTE cause death?
CTE has a wide range of symptoms.
In addition, the condition has been linked symptoms including difficulty with balance and swallowing, as well as suicidal behavior. … But because CTE isn’t diagnosed until after death, it can be difficult to directly connect certain symptoms to the condition
Who has died from CTE?
It is most prominently found among football players: 110 of 111 deceased NFL players were found to have some form of CTE in a study released in 2017. Among them were Junior Seau, Ken Stabler and Frank Gifford.Feb 21, 2019
Frank Gifford was on MNF until he was 68. His family says he died of natural causes one week before his 85th birthday.
In November 2015, Gifford’s family revealed that he had suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE). The family said, “After losing our beloved husband and father, Frank Gifford, we as a family made the difficult decision to have his brain studied in hopes of contributing to the advancement of medical research concerning the link between football and traumatic brain injury … We decided to disclose our loved one’s condition to honor Frank’s legacy of promoting player safety dating back to his involvement in the formation of the NFL Players Association in the 1950s.”[42
It doesn’t appear CTE was too prominent in his life . I used to see him pop in on Kathy Lee’s show. He’s a big name to attach to CTE.
Seems like the fervor has died down but we thought that about Black Lives Matter and Redskins name. It will come back because these groups don’t give up for change. They are just waiting for a few cracks. :)
“Unfortunately, a 2009 analysis of 51 people who experience CTE found the average lifespan of those with the disease is just 51 years.Nov 28, 2013”
This can’t be true!! This study is probably what caused all the upset. I didn’t follow the CTE very closely just the response.
“110 of 111 deceased NFL players were found to have some form of CTE in a study released in 2017. ”
Also still plenty of uncertainty about risk to CTE, many players from pre 1970s now in their 80s don’t have indications of CTE, so may be many other risk factors, although does seem repeated hits to head from high school to pros could be a factor for many.
Having CTE does not mean it was cause of their death, may have and could have been contributing factor, but link of CTE with brain diseases associated with death is still unclear and uncertain science. Of course does not include players impacted from CTE during their life, and no means to confirm CTE in living patients to determine the association. I think as the science advances we will again here more about CTE.
Its also likely that the settlement by NFL over CTE cases by former players, even with still much debate over that agreement, may have stemmed further public and media attention (plus NFL efforts to address risk to current players)
Those players in their 80’s will probably have CTE if they investigate. Looks like that first study in 2009 was probably way off which is a good thing. They just have to learn more.
A little like someone who smokes their whole life and lives to be 90 while the next guy dies at 60 from lung cancer. Different rates of progression. Your taking a chance like a lot of things in life. As long as your risk is only hurting you I don’t see a big issue. Just make the equipment as safe as you possible like they do in NASCAR. If I still cared about the NFL I’d say don’t mess up the game letting too much politics get involved. Politics muddies up everything like with this Corona Virus response.
it should be a loaded semifinalist list for the HOf this year. Does Patrick Willis have a chance to leapfrog anyone? Do people like Zach thomas, Patrick Willis or Demarcus Ware as the next LB in the HOF?
If Zack Thomas is not elected in 2021 (hehada chance) Ware will be next LB elected in 2022
If its two seniors, I think Gradishar gets in.
Amongst moderns, we cant forget about Mills either but I think Thomas gets in before Willis in 2021 …
Thomas definitely has a better chance then Willis in 2021, but Thomas will still have a tough road to get in among the others in also position for one of the five slots: Manning, Woodson, Faneca, Boselli, Lynch, and Seymour
I could see Willis in the final 15 in 2021 but doubt very much he makes leap to election.
Lets hope it is two seniors and then maybe Howley and Gradishar get in but I have this sneaking suspicion it will be just one and it will be Drew Pearson. My guess is Willis cracks the top 15 but stays there for awhile. I believe Mills ends up in the dreaded senior pool in a couple of years and Ware becomes the next LB in the HOF.
Who is the next Senior OL to get elected?
Bob Kuechenberg should, so it will be someone more obscure. Lol They took a good look at him in his last years of modern eligibility and I don’t know why they would accept now? They must of thought his case wasn’t very compelling. Plus, against him now is he was outspoken on the wrong political side and I’m sure people remember.
Look at Jerry Kramer, his fame made no difference. Same with Kooch being a key player on famous undefeated team and the winningest player this side of Tom Brady. I don’t expect him to get in for a very long time if ever.
Who is the next Senior OL to get elected?
OL Wistert and Emerson were centennial class finalists……
It should be either Wistert or Emerson but I get the feeling a modern lineman like Jacoby will be next …
If its one senior … Pearson
If its one coach … Flores
If its one contributor … an owner … Modell ?
Not so sure about Jacoby as did not seem to gather much support from voters, that alone may make senior committee think twice about making him a finalist. Next few senior elections should give us indication as to how senior committee feels about remaining centennial class finalist, could help Wistert or Emerson eventually.
If it’s one senior – I would say Gradishar or Pearson
If it’s one coach – Flores (90% confidence)
If its one contributor -Nunn (95% confidence), really don’t think that committee will go owner, also could be first referee McNally
Hall Board meets next Thursday to decide on election process and timeline for 2021 and beyond, seniors and contributor committees already submitting their votes for top 15 to be considered at their meetings in late August. No one, including those voters, know right now the number of seniors or contributors or details on coaches but certainly seems likely coaches will be moved out of modern category and into their own or with contributors.
I hope youre right Paul …
Other than Hay, I dont support any other owners …
These are Contributors I support
Nunn
Haley
Kotal
Razzano
Vainisi
Siwoff
Parrish
Kilroy
Coaches I support
Shaughnessy
Parker
Collier
Coryell
Flores
Reeves
Knox
Schottenheimer
Shanahan
Holmgren
Seifert
Career Assistants
Arnsparger
Ryan
Might be more but have to look into …
I would include Dante Scarnechia to ast. coach’s as well.
All I know is that in recent weeks, as the contributor committee members were each deciding individually on their 10 candidates to support on ballots going in to the Hall in advance of the 5 members meeting next month to select their finalist, there was a large push via social media by significant high profile NFL media members for Nunn. Frankly I would be really surprised if he was not their finalist
Wade Phillips is an intriguing example of a future HOF coaching candidate when the eligible Head Coaches are exhausted … Not much as a HC despite a winning record but a great career as a defensive assistant like Arnsparger or Ryan.
Another contributor similiar to Nunn was Lloyd Wells for KC, who mentored, recruited a lot of players. He might have been as important as Klosterman for the Chiefs.
Tom Flores. is not a HC I’d be inclined to support. 97-87. If his career isn’t equal to Jimmy Johnson or John Madden’s he’s not in my HOF.
I’d support in this order:
Schottenheimer – the only reason first is because of his Alzheimer Disease.
Holmgren
Reeves
Shanahan
Knox
Seifert
Career Assistant
I would add Dick Vermeil because he rebuilt three teams taking two to the SB. To me he compares to Jimmy Johnson.
I wouldnt have a problem with Vermeil though it was close for me like Reeves.
When Reeves beat the Vikings with Atlanta, I knew he was a great coach despite the SB blowouts. Vermeil was popular with his players but worked them into the ground.
Flores years with the Seahawks hurts him too.
Parker was more like Johnson, building a great champion in Detroit before trying to rebuild another team with an aging QB … Layne then Brown for Pitts
Other great career assistant coaches were Gibbs and Skorich on offensive lines, Saunders and Henning coaching offence, Carson on defence …
Forget Henning … his HC record was bad despite being a great offensive coach.
Ask Browns fans about Bud Carson. Huge proponent of the “prevent defense.” They would often go into it mid way through the 4th if they had the lead, when they had been stout all game. Gave up way too many 4th quarter comebacks to teams. Exceptional coordinator for 3+ quarters. -haha
If we’re bringing up OL Coaches the first that comes to my mind is Jim Hanifan.
As far a Coordinators go, I always remember Ernie Stautner. I thought he was really good but he’s already in the HOF.
“Joe Bugel, who coached the Redskins’ vaunted ‘Hogs’ offensive line, dies at 80. Joe Bugel, a longtime NFL coach known for creating the Washington Redskins’ iconic offensive line known as “The Hogs,” died Sunday at 80, the team announced. The team did not disclose the cause of death.Jun 28, 2020”
Yeah Hanifan, Joe Gibbs, Bugel all had been with Don Coryell …
Some people believe either Carson or Arnsparger first developed cover 2 but its not confirmed.
Tony Wise was a great off line coach as well as Ernie Zampese on offence and Monte Kiffin, Fritz Shurmer and Jim Johnson on defence but it will be AWHILE before career assistant coaches get voted in.
Just to clarify, I know a lot of players and coaches I endorse wont make the HOF but over the years, hopefully SOME will and its always fun to State There Cases …
Hall Board announced today election process for 2021-2014, each year 5 moderns + 1 senior + 1 coach + 1 contributor, there are many more deserving seniors compared to coaches and contributors, over next four years 4 very deserving seniors will be left out, terrible short sighted decision !!!
A Crappy Day Guys …
Personally, I think this was planned all along, probably since 2019 … to balance out the choices …
2020 – 2024
14 Seniors
7 contributors
6 Head Coaches
I hope no owners make it, including Kraft
2021 Predictions
Pearson
Flores
Kraft
Gradishar could go if not Pearson
Parker could be dark horse
Modell ? (Nooooo)
It’s almost as if David Baker and the Hall are creating easier path to more owners elected (Modell, Kraft, Adams) hmmmmm?? hope not but is seems that way and at terrible cost to so many deserving seniors
And I would go with
Gradishar
Nunn
Flores
At least if the committees and voters could put in Kilroy as a contributor, it could SEEM like two seniors …
Its a sad day for Howley … If he gets elected in the next four years, it would be like a Big Foot sighting.
It will be tough for Dilweg or Lewellen who cancel each other out and I dont feel Isbell is worthy … Emerson has a great case but since every team ran the ball in the 30s, he may wait awhile … Hopefully Wistert can get in but it will be tough sledding with basically five modern seniors going after just four slots …
Best Chances From Remaining Finalists
Pearson/Gradishar
Branch
Wistert
Nobis
Craig
Emerson
Dilweg/Lewellen
Isbell
Coaches I Root for … 2021-2024
Parker
Shaughnessy
Flores/Reeves
Shanahan (Non Finalist)
Contributors I Root For 2021-2024
Kilroy
Vainisi
Parrish (Non Radar … a disgrace)
Kotal
Art Rooney Jr could overshadow Haley and Nunn for Pittsburgh (Nooooo)
Vainisi?
Parrish??
Kotal???
You dont know these guys Paul ?
Jack Vainisi was the Packers Head of Personnel who scouted and drafted most of their HOF players. He got the city to hire Vince Lombardi as well. Though he died in 1960, he drafted seven HOF players and many pro bowl selections as well …
Eddie Kotal did the same role for the LA Rams, and was a scouting pioneer finding many future HOF players which made the team a late 40s, 50s powerhouse and bringing in black players along with the Browns to break open the color barrier …
Parrish of course had been a former player representative who was blackballed from the Browns for challenging Art Modell and Pete Rozelle on many labor and pension issues and also was vice president of the players association, who tried to set up a teamsters type union to help all players and spent the next three decades as an influential players advocate for better workplace conditions.
He was one of the few critics of the team owners and demanded that they disclose economic, medical and financial transparency, so players could get better outside arbitration when dealing with affairs and conflicts of interest, between players and management.
Most of the contributors I support were Scouts/Pro Player Personnel/General Managers who brought in talented players and coaches who helped develop great teams like Vainisi with the Packers, Kotal with the Rams, Nunn and Haley with the Steelers, Razzano with the 49ers, Kilroy with the Cowboys and Patriots. Ernie Accorsi with the Colts, Browns and Giants.
Have not seen or read any calls for support or interest in those contributors mentioned by ay others including voters, may be deserving but they don’t seem to have widespread support, hard to gage if voters are pushing their cases or even aware of them, I would be surprised if contributors committee vote any among their 10 finalists to be discussed at their meeting later this month to pick their finalists (of course we may never know as Hall doesn’t release names of those ten)
That’s the thing …
Just because I root for them doesn’t mean they will get in. Heaven forbid they put more scouts/player personnel people in, though you believe Nunn has a chance and hopefully you’re right.
In four years I see at least McNally and two owners getting in, maybe Kraft or Modell but Rooney Jr and Rosenbloom also have supporters. Some people like Joe Thomas as well, who was an excellent talent scout and accumulator but an overreaching General Manager who helped bring Robert Irsay to the Colts …
In addition to getting Vince Lombardi signed with the Packers as Head Coach and General Manager …
These are the players that Pro Personnel man Jack Vainisi drafted or signed to the Packers …
Tobin Rote … NFL and AFL champion as QB
Babe Parilli … AFL success as QB
Billy Howton … HOF resume
Bobby Dillon … HOF
Dave Hanner … tough player
Bill Forester … underrated player
Jim Ringo … HOF
Max McGee … great career for Pack
Tom Bettis … tough player
Forrest Gregg … HOF
Bob Skoronski … Great career for Pack
Bart Starr … HOF
Paul Hornung … HOF
Ron Kramer … HOF resume
Dan Currie … Great role player for Pack
Jim Taylor … HOF
Ray Nitschke … HOF
Jerry Kramer … HOF
Boyd Dowler … HOF resume
Tom Moore … Tough role player
Bob Jeter … Great career for Pack
Fuzzy Thurston … Signed from Colts … HOF resume
Willie Davis … Fleeced from Browns … HOF
Henry Jordan … Another one from Browns … HOF
Emlen Tunnell … Signed from Giants … HOF
Jess Whittenton … Great Packer career
Hank Gremminger … Tough role player for Pack
If Beathard, Polian, Finks, Wolf, Young, Schramm and Brandt can get voted in, so should this guy …
“In four years I see at least McNally and two owners getting in, maybe Kraft or Modell but Rooney Jr and Rosenbloom also have supporters. Some people like Joe Thomas as well, who was an excellent talent scout and accumulator but an overreaching General Manager who helped bring Robert Irsay to the Colts …”
Thats a pretty good assessment, I would go with Nunn, McNally, Kraft and Modell, but personally would gladly drop Modell for another GM/scout type, just not to optimistic that will be the case. I see this as all David Baker looking to appease owners to help get more of them in the Hall (Kraft, Modell, Adams), maybe the contributors committee will push for non-owners but not so sure that will be the outcome here.
Bottom line is that any of us could put together a list of top 8 seniors, all of whom would be better than most contributors, and we would likely agree on many of those 8, yet now best we could hope for is 4 get elected by 2024-unfortunately how many in their mid 70s and 80s will die before elected??
Here’s eight only four instead of eight getting elected is a traveasy
1. LB Chuck Howley DAL 5/6/SB MVP
2. F Lavvie Dilweg GB 5/20s (2020F)
3. LB Randy Gradishar DEN 5/7 (2020F)
4. WR Drew Pearson DAL 3/3/70s (2020F)
5. G Ox Emerson DET 5/30s (2020F)
6. WR Cliff Branch OAK 4/4 (2020F)
7. OT Al Wistert PHIL 1/8/40s (2020F)
8. LB Maxie Baughan PHIL/LAR 2(5)/9
Paul, is your opinion Flores gets in based on he’s most deserving and has momentum or politically in a good position?
Flores has been in the final 15 and in the centennial class so momentum would seem to be on his side, could debate whether he’s the most deserving but since he is deserving let’s se him elected and move on from the continued controversy, same for Nunn and Gradishar
Yes they need to decide on Flores. I think he was pretty good. If he gets in it should be for what he was able to do with Plunkett. He must of instilled a hell of a lot of confidence in him through ups and downs. The Defense had some real veteran leadership so he pretty much got a pass. I see his main job as keeping Plunkett’s head in the game and being a cool headed leader. I do think Al Davis was still a big asset to have as an Owner at that point. I guess I’d lean slightly his way. Do we think he had a tougher job winning than Tony Dungy?
Have they moved on from Don Coryell? Not many Head Coaches are in the HOF without a Championship. All things considered is he on par with George Allen, Bud Grant and Marv Levy? If I knew more about him as a motivator, I could speak better to if he should be a HOFer.
I’m going to make a statement, not sure how accurate, but it seems like only the really truly great HC’s have success when they hit the age of 60. 60 is like 30 for a RB. Lol Most lose ability to communicate with the younger players by that age and have trouble winning?? I know a whole lot goes into saying that and probably too simplistic of a view but that would be the logic assumption.
I think Davis was actually a hindurance to Flores, TonyP …
He gets rid of Stabler, brings in Pastorini, who gets injured, and still prefers Wilson over Plunkett … He pisses off Rozelle and the other owners, while flip flopping the team between Oakland and Los Angeles, in the middle of the Olympics for crying out loud … Its amazing Flores and Plunkett win two championships in different cities.
Since Davis prefers Wilson, Flores cant develop another young QB and the team doesnt respond to Wilson who loses a favored playoff game to NE in 85/86. Then, Davis and Marcus Allen have a falling out because Allens fumbling cost them a playoff spot in 1986, which leads to Davis bringing in Bo Jackson in 1987. Despite Allen, Jackson and Wilson, the Raiders also deal with the replacement strike, and miss the playoffs … who pays for all of this ? Flores, who gets fired from the team …
Yes, he sucks in Seattle but he also had one of the best teams in the NFL from 80-86, despite Al Davis distractions and resurrected Plunketts career, as well as coaching on all Raider championships …
I would put him in but I hope that Buddy Parker is the next coach elected but I doubt he gets it …
Really does seem like the voters have moved on from Don Coryell, and never heard of any push for Parker. After Flores seems like voters will go with the other 2x SB winners and centennial class finalists.
We will see, since two time champion Shanahan didnt even make the final cut …
If Levy and Grant can get elected, its time for Reeves as well but its a crapshoot for these four years …
I know Davis was a hindrance. I was thinking about him up to their second SB win in 1983, when I think a lot of the players still revered him as their Owner. Maybe I’m wrong about that but it seemed that way. “Just win baby!”
The move to LA didn’t seem to effect the players much as their stars grew brighter. It was tough for the Oakland and NFL fans but great for the organization for a time. Rozelle and the other owners ate some serious crow when Al Davis hoisted the Lombardi for a third time. He probably thought he could do know wrong are that. He was mistaken.
I will always admire Al Davis but he rubbed some players the wrong way …
Howie Long thought it was his way of motivating players but that was Madden and Flores job, which they did well, though Madden was super emotional …
Whats your predictions TonyP on the player/coach/contributor for 2021 ?
Going forward with the next four elected coaches and contributors, will the selectors/voters go with some of the BRP finalists that weren’t voted in, or back to reevaluation from the various committees that will oversee these choices?
This February, these finalists failed to make the final vote …
Owner Bud Adams
Owner Art Modell
Owner Clint Murchison
Owner Ralph Hay
Statistics Pioneer Seymour Siwoff
Scout/Player Personnel Bucko Kilroy
Head Official Supervisor Art McNally
Head Coach Buddy Parker
Head Coach Don Coryell
Head Coach Tom Flores
Head Coach Dick Vermeil
Head Coach Dan Reeves
Head Coach Mike Holmgren
Since some of these committee members were part of the Blue Ribbon Panel, surely these candidates will be revisited but could other candidates be reheard and have a chance like Clark Shaughnessy, George Seifert, Marty Schottenheimer, Chuck Knox and Mike Shanahan amongst coaches and contributors like Nunn, Vainisi, Haley and Kotal with perhaps owners Kraft and Rosenbloom thrown in ?
If the BRP has/had an influence on these selectors/voters, hopefully these finalists will get voted in the next four years …
Based on BRP Finalists … 2021-2024 Wishlist
2021
Senior … Pearson/Gradishar (Toss Up)
Coach … Parker
Contributor … Kilroy
2022
Senior … Gradishar/Pearson
Coach … Flores
Contributor … Siwoff
2023
Senior … Wistert
Coach … Reeves
Contributor … Hay (Only owner I support)
2024
Senior … Branch
Coach … Coryell
Contributor … McNally (Over an owner)
Hopefully Paul, a non finalist like Nunn or a Shaughnessy can overtake some of these BRP finalists but we will see how independent these committees choose to be …
I don’t have a clue Brian. lol
I’ll say Bob Kuechenberg, on the heels of Don Shula’s passing would be fitting choice. Although his profile 1/6 isn’t great for a Guard I think he’s deserving.
Robert Kraft would seem due since Jerry Jones is in.
Tom Flores is becoming a sentimental pick at 83.
Kuechenberg actually makes perfect sense because with only four upcoming seniors, why not the committees bypass any BRP finalists and go with players who have been voted HOF finalist nominees the most times, like Kuechenberg and his eight nominations ?
Kuechenberg … 8 time HOF finalist
Conerly … 7 times
Greenwood … 6 times
Hayes … 4 times
TonyP, and others may know who the 2019 senior finalists were but I would have to look back … I only remember hearing of Robinson
So disappointing only one senior player per year for the next 4 years. Just awful.
The coaches are no where close to the deserving senior players that are eligible. As a fan perhaps I don’t give them the credit they deserve but perhaps have the HOFers vote for that. Who else would know better? Plus they will get more love if they coached HOFers. Their success can be attributed to a coach:system that they played under
Also. Please with all the other deserving players with 5+ PBS and ridiculously dominant players from the old days why are Pearson and Branch on this list. I know the answer. Big games/ SBs. Hence Lynn Swann. So I know I’m in the minority in my thinking here. But neither ended their career in top 10 in any category. Branch led league in yds 1x TDS 2x. Yds/g 2x. Pearson led in yds and yds/g 1x. That’s not hall of famer material in my opinion. Just WRs on the most successful teams of that particular decade.
I appreciate your opinion Ed, but I think that is how the NFL Hall of Fame is supposed to work…the best players form the most successful teams over the course of a decade are the players that fill the HOF. If this wasn’t the case, the HOF would have players like Henry Ellard, Dave Krieg and Drew Bledsoe. It isn’t always about the numbers.
“Hopefully Paul, a non finalist like Nunn or a Shaughnessy can overtake some of these BRP finalists but we will see how independent these committees choose to be …”
Agreed, I am wondering that although the remaining BRP selections are a guide, and could end up as selected finalists (many have been discussed by Hall committees in the recent past), it is just as possible that the committees go other directions and there has been plenty buzz for Nunn.
Guess we will see in the next few weeks, as if the Hall keeps committee meetings to timeline that was followed in August 2018, those announcements could be soon.
“TonyP, and others may know who the 2019 senior finalists were but I would have to look back … I only remember hearing of Robinson”
For 2018 and a few years prior, those names would float out unofficially on social media or PFRA posts, but I do not recall that in 2019 and of course Hall refuses to release the list so often a guessing game.
And will be really interesting to see how committees look at BRP selections, have to think it will be of some influence and impact but when a rotation of 5 different voters meet from each committee to pick their annual finalist, its impossible to know the process and discussions that result in the selection. Some like to point at Robinson and Kramer as examples of predictable selections, well perhaps they were but were also candidates many of us supported for years, while Culp, Robinson and Guy were selected (and no one had them on their radar).
Ed if we based the Hall on season and career stats only there would be no need for voters or elections and we could see Vinny Testaverde in the PFHOF. I think most of us, plus many other informed public, and the voters, see selection to the Hall as more about numbers, and yes career season and playoff stats are part of the discussion but so are impacts, key games, SBs, playoffs, talent, awards, and place in history. Its never just about one aspect and certainly should never be about numbers alone. I know many here are critical of all pro and all decade selections, but they were made and although debated they remain part of a players resume.
Due to the era he played in (70s and once 2x a WR led league in season receptions, and passing was not the focus of offenses as it is today), plus a injured end to his career, Drew Pearson does not have the numbers of WRs from the 1970s to today, but he had multiple game wining historical TD catches in playoffs (not just one). and 3(2)/3/all decade/SB profile, perhaps not the strongest case-hence yet to be elected, but at this point as the only member of the 1st team 70s all decade team (and only 1st team offense all decade team member from 70s 80s 90s) its time he was elected.
And lets forget about pro bowls for the minute, yet how many players with 3x first team all pro selections from the pre 1990s era are not in the Hall? Its not a long list and includes both Pearson and Branch.
Ed, I get how you feel because sometimes it’s easy to get caught up in the value of stats. But some of the great players on great teams have diminished stats yet are still very deserving to be in the HOF.
A good example of that is WR Paul Warfield. He was a 1st Ballot HOF selection despite only having 29 catches in one of his best seasons. It’s the Hall’s responsibility to recognize greatness. No one would deny Warfield was a great,great player with the eye test.
I will agree it may seem a little unfair when players are evenly matched as HOF contenders and the ones on better Teams with big catches get the nod. I’m not really sure that actually happens very often though. Notice we are still just talking about Pearson and Branch. lol They are just get more attention at this point :) I’m thinking of one player that probably gave credence to Ed’s argument named Lynn Swann but by in large I don’t believe it is a problem. One could also say the Hall bends over backwards to let players from lesser quality teams who maybe don’t deserve into the HOF in there. My example would be Floyd Little.
No, I think it’s pretty balanced. There are just players we don’t agree on. :)
There are now 346 PFHOFers, with that large of group its pretty easy to find some cases of “questionable” elections, but using those few to make debates about others with similar accomplishments seems like a poor approach – pressing for player A to be elected because player X got in with a weak case may not be effective approach to get player A in.
RIP Howard Mudd … A fiery player and coach.
I do believe Henry Ellard should be in the HOF
He played on teams that never had a great QB and the Rams were a run first team when he joined them, before they finally let Jim “Chris”Everett throw the ball …
Problem is that Ellard needs to get in line behind Pearson and Branch, then faces plenty others deserving candidates from different positions and eras, at 1-2 seniors a years seems like he would be in for a longggggggggg wait
I agree the line is long.
I’d put the guy Howard Cosell was fired for saying, “he was every where on the field like a little monkey”, Gary Clark in the HOF first. Which was a great analogy and I believe totally innocent.
Or Marino’s wideout Mark Clayton. I thought at the time they were a little better talents. The smaller players have to be tough but I thought Clark was especially hard nosed. I like those type players. That’s probably why I’m a strong supporter of Hines Ward were other aren’t. RB Larry Brown, Phil Simms, Jim Kelly a lot of REALLY tough guys through the years. We should come up with a Tough Guy HOF . Lol1
I don’t really have any issue with Clark or Clayton, but not before Pearson and Branch.
Great story TonyP but it was actually Alvin Garrett, Cosell was talking about. He said the same type comment about a white player Mike Adamle, ten years before … it was something he would always call his grandson.
I get what youre saying, Clark was tough but also dropped a lot of balls, but he was fearless over the middle. He could make a lot of big plays. I like Hines Ward as well but being a self made receiver, he wasnt as flashy as other guys being considered.
Speaking of tough small receivers, I loved watching Anthony Carter play. He has a slight case if you count his USFL years but got hurt more once Cris Carter joined the Vikings …
Thats why I believe Steve Smith will get elected, he may have been the toughest receiver for his size, ever …
Yeah, Ellard will have to wait awhile I am afraid despite being third alltime in receiving yardage when he retired. Great returner too.
We have to really hope that the next four senior picks are on the ball, though I still believe living players are the way to go.
I actually like Irving Fryar, Mark Clayton and Gary Clark over Henry Ellard.
If the Hall returns to the timeline used in 2018, the seniors candidate should be announced later this week (3rd Friday in August) and contributor next week. Of course Hall may have altered that schedule and they never publicly tell us of those changes or when meeting is held, we may only find out once decision is made on the candidate. We often only find out meeting is being held if a voter happens to mention it on social media, and nothing so far.
Was looking at the career of SF WR Gene Washington …
According to Pro Football Reference, Washington was listed as an All-Pro in 1969 but either they confused him with the other Gene Washington in Minnesota, who had the better year in 69, or they confused his designation for 1971 ?
Either way, I doubt he was All-Pro in 69 with only 711 yards and three TDs …
Though Washington started playing four years before WR Isaac Curtis of the Bengals, they were both great deep threats who started their careers with a bang …
Unfortunately, they both had injury problems that limited their production drastically over the last five years of their career, though Washingtons 60 TDs on only 385 receptions is impressive.
Both have slight cases but I don’t think they will make it, unless the three All Pro designations help Washington but he is further down the line …
So Tony, Andy and Paul, will we get a new thread covering the possible Final Four for the next four years of seniors, coaches and contributors ?
I was thinking of a new post once we have news on the 2021 senior, contributor and coach finalists. Would give us a fresh thread until modern semifinalists in November
official announcement coming soon, but seniors and coaches committee just finished meeting and have selected 2021 finalists, Drew Pearson and Tom Flores
Contributors committee meeting next week
Congrats to both, Still on the fence with Tom Flores but happy for him just the same. Drew Pearson getting in would right a wrong.
It looks like Carmichael getting in was strategic to get him included with a group. Not sure if he gets in as a stand alone like Pearson.
I don’t have strong feelings either way on Flores, but he’s not a terrible pick and his omission in the centennial class (especially over Cowher and the live TV reveal) was perhaps the most criticized of the BRP panel process, good to correct and move on from it.
BRP and seniors committee are too distinct different processes and sets of voters, not sure lessons and results from BRP really are informative towards regular seniors selection process, I would not read much into possible connections.
But it is clear that committees today addressed perhaps to two most public omissions by the BRP that got plenty of scorn from fans.
Just to be sure, these two are voted in, or do they have to go through another voting process ?
As has been the norm for seniors (and more recently with contributors), these are subcommittee nominations of finalists, they are still presented to full selection committee at their meeting day before the Superbowl and require 80% of YES votes. They are presented, discussed and voted on separately (before presentations and voting rounds on 15 modern finalists).
For perspective, from 2015-2019 a total of 8 contributors were nominated by the committee, only 1 (Tagliabue) was not elected. For seniors, from 2000 to 2018 a total of 33 were nominated as finalists, only 4 were not elected (and 3 including Bob Hayes, Claude Humphrey, Dick Stanfel were nominated a 2nd time and elected). I would we would expect same now for the coaches committee finalist. Full selection committee tends to honor and respect the efforts and decision of the subcommittees, and these two are certainly deserving and not controversial, they will be elected on Feb 6th.
Thanks Paul …
Guess I will start making plans to attend the HOF ceremonies for next August … will probably stay in Cleveland.
With hopefully Pearson, Harris and Johnson in for the Cowboys and possibly Faneca, Shell, Polamalu and Cowher in for the Steelers, a memorable August 2021 …
Now if only Kilroy can get voted in as a contributor, possibly three former players !!
Congratulations Coach Flores …
I have to say I’m pretty underwhelmed in these selections, especially Pearson. So many players in the Senior pool were better.
Corey both were finalists for centennial class so really should not be surprise they were selected as finalists today. Flores has his 2x SB and Pearson was only first team member of 70s all decade team not in Hall, so they are fine selections, certainly among the many deserving candidates.
Hey Corey, who do you think the contributor might be, or your pick ?
Apparently the Seniors Committee discussed 12 candidates before selecting Pearson as the 2021 finalist.
The other 11 were:
Stanley Morgan
George Kunz
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Branch
Roger Craig
Ken Anderson
Ken Riley,
Chuck Howley
Tommy Nobis
LC Greenwood
Joe Klecko.
Going with a Cowboy and a WR may limit the chances in 2022 for Branch and Howley especially.
I think they’ll go defense that year. Gradishar would be my gut feeling early choice for next August.
I love seeing some fresh names…Stanley Morgan, George Kunz and Ken Riley. Still can’t understand how Chuck Howley, Joe Klecko and Randy Gradishar were not voted in on the regular ballot.
Pre merger centennial finalists Emerson Wistert Dilweg are going to be screwed for years
Apparently other coaches considered were Holmgren, Parker, Shaughnessy, Coryell, Vermeil
Contributors committee meets next Tuesday August 25th
No one is ever going to convince me that Morgan and Kunz are more deserving than Emerson, Wistert and Dilweg
Bill: The selection committee in the 70s through 90s made some odd choices, plus many years did not even use the full number of modern slots available (some years only 2-3 out of as many as 6), plus plenty of suggestions and evidence-including public comments by some voters, that petty bias and other factors such as block voting, kept many deserving candidates off ballot as finalists (Howley) and not considered in meeting or not voted in (Gradishar). As to Klecko I just think voters could never get an handle or fully appreciate his unique career as a “jack of all trades” along the DL, had one great year (1981) and only 2x all pro selections-only 24 career sacks, sort of dooms DL who need multiple All Pro and sacks. Like Curly Culp, Klecko is perfect example of how the senior committee can get such an unrecognized player into the Hall-its a role that committee should play, reason why Guy is in.
Thanks Paul for your explanation, and I can see how politics can keep players out or put other players in. One correction I would like to make. Joe Klecko only had 24 sacks after 1981…He had 50.5 prior to that for a total of 74.5 which is a pretty awesome number considering the amount of times he switched positions. A very unique player. I would think Richard Seymour would be a decent comp, and I think he has a pretty good chance in the next couple of years getting in.
Unofficial sack numbers from before 1980 are controversial measure due to so much uncertainty and lack of objective standards, which is too bad as it hurts many players not to have those numbers
According to Pro Football Journal, Klecko has 76 sacks which is impressive considering he had five seasons with less than 3 sacks, which shows how injuries played a role in his career like Dan Hampton. If the HOF can put in Hampton, they surely can put in Klecko with his accolades, despite injury problems, though I believe Henry Thomas with the Vikings and Lions was better, because he played more shade/nose tackle on rundowns.
He simply doesnt have the accolades of Klecko despite nearly 20 more sacks …
Gastineau and Klecko to me cancel each other out but we will see who enters the Hall first.
Though Kunz, Morgan, and Riley were discussed, I dont see how they were as worthy as Dilweg, Emerson, Lewellen and Wistert, not to mention Tyrer, Grayson and Sestak from the AFL …
Amongst coaches, I dont see how Shanahan, Schottenheimer and Reeves werent discussed ?
I am not sure of the number but there was a set of finalists to be discussed by the coaches committee (after initial mail ballot to select those) perhaps they didn’t make that cut??
Well Klecko made final 12 so he’s clearly in the discussion which puts him in good place for future election
Went back and looked at records I collected over the years, here is list of remaining senior candidates who have been finalists considered by the seniors committee multiple times since 2012. Note records are incomplete as for some elections the list of seniors considered was never made public
G – Bob Kuechenberg 2/6/70s-80s
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s-80s
RB- Roger Craig 1(1)/3/80s
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s-80s
DE – L.C.Greenwood 2/6/70’s
DL Joe Klecko 2/4
LB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s
LB- Randy Gradishar 5/7
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s
Plus others we know considered for 2021 election:
Stanley Morgan
George Kunz
Ken Riley
Tommy Nobis
For 2022-2024, could be that Gradishar, Branch, and Craig would be the favorites-in some order. Plus Greenwood? Anderson? Nobis? Klecko?
By 2024 will Cornelius Bennett be an option?
He will fall into a very deep pool of senior candidates, with his 3x first team all pro selections he would be deserving of consideration BUT so do many others in that pool, some of whom have waited decades for election (including all decade team members). He may get in the room and discussed by the senior committee one day, but its not going to be soon.
In his column today,NBC sports writer and PFHOF voter Peter King expressed strong support for coach Buddy Parker. He also mentioned meeting of selection committee on Feb 6th regarding discussions of senior and coach finalists could be “intense”, whatever that means.
Reminder that the contributors committee is meeting today to select their finalist for the class of 2021.
One of 6 key dates for election of class of 2021: senior finalist (last week), coach finalist (last week), contributors (today), modern finalists (late Nov), modern finalists (early January), election day (Feb 6th)…..and yes I don’t count the 100+preliminary list of moderns (sept 16th) since it really is not very helpful as to final outcomes
Former Steelers scout Bill Nunn is the contributor finalist for the class of 2021
Good call on Bill Nunn …
Glad an owner wasnt selected …
I think all three will be voted in.
Any word Paul or rumors on the top four contributor finalists ?
Art McNally was one
I suspect by the time the four years of contributors is complete they will elect 1-2 owners, unfortunately
Agreed, I don’t envision any controversy and anticipate that Pearson, Flores and Nunn will be elected. Next – move on to the modern finalists!
Paul…who were the ten contributor semifinalists?
Names were never released (Hall never releases seniors, coaches or contributors considered by voters), sometimes a voter posts the names – happened for 2021 seniors – but that usually not the case
Word is that Art McNally and Robert Kraft were considered but others not known
Does anyone P/U Adrian Peterson or is his pursuit of Emmitt Smith over. Personally, i don’t think he even catches Walter.
Really not surprised he was cut in Washington. With all the problems the team is facing, Rivera wants a quiet team and Peterson talks a lot, though we all know he can still play …
Too bad Fournette went to Tampa, Peterson could have finally developed as a receiver, if they picked him up … The Bears should get him or the Rams …
Also very surprised that Ken Riley was considered runner-up to Pearson for the one senior slot according to Talk Of Fame Network.
Seems like a lot of finalists from the Blue Ribbon Panel, will be ignored ?
1/2 of the seniors (6) considered by the committee for the 2021 senior were from BRP centennial class senior finalists- but none were from pre 1970s candidates. Looks like Gradishar Craig Branch Nobis and Greenwood will continue to be among those considered in future years.
But Riley almost elected (no one predicted that) shows how unpredictable the results are from a rotation of different 5 voters each year, no clear voting trend exists plus Bill Polian is now on the seniors committee – new voice in room
Aquib Talib hangs up his cleats and his opponents chains for good. Is he a future HOFamer?
nope
Just realized that Vinatieri is not on a roster. Assuming he doesn’t get picked up (and you never know with kickers) what does that 1st timer ballot look like now in 2025?
Here is what I have so far (and I only include those with reasonable chance to be elected), will wait on Vinatieri as still could be added to roster this season), Terrell Suggs also still looking for a team this season
*likely 1st ballot
2025: Luke Kuechly*, Marshawn Lynch, Eli Manning, Marshal Yanda, Travis Frederick, Darren Sproles, Eric Weddle
I have to be honest…I think Talib will have just as good a chance as Sproles. The only reason he has a chnce is because of the new “flex” position on the all-decade. Thanks for the list so far Paul.
I believe Adam V will be picked up later this year …
Brady has thrown a pick-six in three consecutive games …
Wilson is only the second QB to join the 30,000/4000 club … the first ?
Not Tarkenton but Steve Young …
Good first games for Peterson with Detroit and Aldon Smith for Dallas …
Colts need a star running back, fast … with Mack missing the year
Sorry Rams but the light grey uniforms suck …
What hurts Talib for the HOF, were the AFC championship games in 2012/13 and 2013/14 that he got hurt and failed to finish for the Patriots … he and Tom Brady might have had more rings …
As to Talib its very hard to get elected with just one first team all pro selection.
And perhaps one day the voters will consider those who among the top in career all purpose yards largely built from return yards, perhaps Sproles will be the first, as no one to date has been elected based on that accomplishment (everyone else in top 20 all purpose yards has significant rushing or receiving yards and season stats) – I just don’t see it happening any time soon. Heck the top PR, KR and ST players have never been elected, that is likely to happen before all purpose yard leaders. I suspect Devin Hester could be first ST player of any type in the Hall but I don’t think that will be a quick or easy path.
Reminder class of 2021 preliminary list of modern candidates to be announced tomorrow
One of my favorite days of the process!
Lets hope there are more players this year because as I wrote at the beginning of this thread in March, I felt another 25 players deserved to be on the list and since its preliminary, the numbers shouldnt matter as long as theyre are no glaring omissions or forgotten players …
I agrre Brian- I remember one year in which Richmond Webb was left off and their were some names that made you scratch your head. There was also a year when a player was listed and they were not eligible yet. Hopefully they check for accuracy as well.
Brian there are no restrictions on the number, as long as a candidate mets the standard of at least one all pro, pro bowl or all conference selection anyone can nominate such a candidate and they would be on the list. The hall doesn’t restrict the number on the preliminary list.
The hall does check the list by yes occasionally errors are made or deserving candidates are left off including those no one thought to nominate.
Actually because the list is so large it’s really not very indicative of the final elected modern candidates, many will never be elected, so of all the key dates in the voting process it holds the least interest for me.
Class of 2021 Preliminary List of Modern Candidates just released
OFFENSE
QB (8) – Drew Bledsoe, Randall Cunningham, Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia, Dave Krieg, Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair.
RB (17) – Shaun Alexander, Mike Alstott, Tiki Barber, Earnest Byner, Larry Centers, Corey Dillon, Warrick Dunn, Eddie George, Priest Holmes, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Lewis, Eric Metcalf, Glyn Milburn, Lorenzo Neal, Fred Taylor, Herschel Walker, Ricky Watters.
TE (7) – Dallas Clark, Ben Coates, Keith Jackson, Brent Jones, Heath Miller, Jeremy Shockey, Wesley Walls.
WR (13) – Donald Drive, Henry Ellard, Torry Holt, Calvin Johnson, Chad Johnson, Derrick Mason, Muhsin Muhammad, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, Hines Ward, Reggie Wayne, Wes Welker, Roddy White.
OL (20) – Willie Anderson, Matt Birk, Tony Boselli, Lomas Brown, Ruben Brown, Alan Faneca, D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Kevin Glover, Jordan Gross, Kent Hull, Olin Kreutz, Logan Mankins, Tom Nalen, Chris Samuels, Jeff Saturday, Chris Snee, Brian Waters, Richmond Webb, Erik Williams, Steve Wisniewski.
DEFENSE
DL (15) – John Abraham, Jared Allen, Ray Childress, La’Roi Glover, Casey Hampton, Leslie O’Neal, Michael Dean Perry, Simeon Rice, Richard Seymour, Justin Smith, Neil Smith, Greg Townsend, Justin Tuck, Kevin Williams, Bryant Young.
LB (16) – Cornelius Bennett, Lance Briggs, Tedy Bruschi, London Fletcher, Seth Joyner, Clay Matthews, Jared Mayo, Willie McGinest, Sam Mills, Joey Porter, Chris Spielman, Takeo Spikes, Pat Swilling, Darryl Talley, Zach Thomas, Patrick Willis.
DB (18) – Eric Allen, Ronde Barber, LeRoy Butler, Nick Collins, Merton Hanks, Rodney Harrison, James Hasty, Albert Lewis, John Lynch, Tim McDonald, Allen Rossum, Asante Samuel, Bob Sanders, Charles Tillman, Troy Vincent, Adrian Wilson, Charles Woodson, Darren Woodson.
PUNTERS/KICKERS (12) – David Akers, Gary Anderson, Jason Elam, Jeff Feagles, Jason Hanson, John Kasay, Sean Landeta, Ryan Longwell, Nick Lowery, Reggie Roby, Rohn Stark, Matt Turk.
SPECIAL TEAMS (4) – Josh Cribbs, Mel Gray, Brian Mitchell, Steve Tasker.
Paul, whats the status of Bill Bates, Greg Lloyd, Nate Newton, Clyde Simmons, Eugene Robinson – senior pool ?
Good to see these players added to the list …
Asante Samuel
Warrick Dunn
Tom Nalen
Reuben Brown
Joey Porter
James Hasty
Still left off …
OT Matt Light – SBs but light accolades
NT Ted Washington
DT Kevin Williams – eligible ?
DT Henry Thomas – underrated with light accolades
SS Carnell Lake
OC Mark Stepnoski
LB Hardy Nickerson – better than most listed
OT Tarik Glenn – light accolades
SS Antoine Winfield – Tackling CB
FS Kevin Ross – underrated but light accolades
Anyone whose last season was 2006 would still be eligible for Class of 2021 as modern candidate, so you would need to check each of them.
Voters see two drafts of this list over last several months, they can add any candidates, plus anyone can send nominations to the Hall.
Guessing voters don’t bother with players they deem have no chance at election.
If players are left off its because no one nominated them-including voters who don’t think they are PFHOFers.
There is no max cap to preliminary list, so feel free to send letter to Hall early next year to have them on 2022 ballot,
This step in the process has little interest to me, it gets real with the 25 semi-finalists in late November.
Should be at least 50 players on the semifinal list, so the debating can get even more hot and heavy … there are enough deserving candidates but I know its a crazy, almost pecking order process …
Debating by whom? Fans debating are fun but don’t contribute to actual voting process. The voters themselves don’t “debate” candidates until meeting in person to discuss the 18 finalists – and that takes 8 hr meeting !!
Paul, I think it’s 1996 as to when a player was last active to remain eligible as a modern era. (The 25 year rule).
Brian
Kevin Williams is on the prelims list, and is probably the whitest candidate I can remember with five 1st team All Pros.
All the guys you mentioned from Bates to Robinson are still eligible ….. just.
I am guessing boknows34 had a really unfortunate auto-correct on his Kevin Williams comment, lol.
Pretty good preliminary list. I think that RB, TE, K and DE/DT are about as good as you could hope for and most positions only have 1 or 2 minor omissions. At least guys like Ben Coates, Neil Smith and Richmond Webb are consistently on the list now.
If I had to pick a top 10 omissions from the list, I would likely go with (in no particular order)
Boomer Esiason
Rich Gannon
Irving Fryar
Nate Newton
Mark Stepnoski
Ray Donaldson (final year of eligibility)
Hardy Nickerson
Greg Lloyd
Carnell Lake
Rich Camarillo (final year of eligibility)
If I had to pick one, I would say Newton is probably the biggest omission. He is the only one on the list above that I think has a sort of realistic chance at making the Hall of Fame.
Also worth noting…Kent Hull, Clay Matthews, Keith Jackson, Ray Childress and Nick Lowery are in their final year of eligibility in the modern era pool.
I think they are all more Hall of Very Good players, but they all had really good careers. I could see Jackson in particular getting an eventual chance in the Senior vote. Outside of Todd Christensen he would probably be the best TE in the senior pool.
Thanks guys, missed Williams …
Glad BoKnows and BSLO are back !!
Wheres The Greatest ?
BSLO
Oh dear!! That could‘ve been a lot worse I guess. LOL
It should’ve said “quietest”.
Oops typo on my part, should have been 1996
Just to let you guys know that now that preliminary list is out starting clock on the selection of the class of 2021 we will also be starting new thread on here soon focusing on discussion and predictions of that class
Good list BSLO …
Would be nice if Hull, O’Neal, and Ellard could gain some voting momentum but they are about to enter the senior abyss, I am afraid …
Would be nice if Hull, O’Neal, and Ellard could gain some voting momentum….if you can’t get into final 15 then there is no momentum to gain.
Its a big jump from 130 to 25 (even if they add a step to 50, its still big jump to 15). Its a lot to ask most of the 130 to ever get into the 25 let alone the 15. Its a hard process as it should be. If they are not worthy of the Hall, then we should not be surprised many do not even get to 25.
Something to remember Paul, is that their are now a number of inducted players through the Senior pool that never even made it to the 25.
Yep Bill, but lets also remember that is a deep pool, lets compare some of those still waiting after decades to the likes of Hull, O’Neal, and Ellard.
For example Howley and Gradishar are just two examples of much more qualified candidates than those three-and decades later they are still waiting.
I would not be very optimistic about chances for Hull, O’Neal, and Ellard.
Plus selection of the 25 semi-finalists is a relatively new step in the process introduced in the early 2000s- many current seniors were never semi-finalists as that step never existed when they were modern candidates.
I agree paul, I don’t know if Hull Ellard or O’Neil will ever have a shot. I was more thinking about guys that will leave the ballot soon like Cornelius Bennett, and Steve Wisniewski.
I get where you are coming from, but the only discussion/debate voters have is when they meet on “selection Saturday” day before SB to consider the 18 finalists. In some years voters have been aware of a candidate who is having their last year as a modern candidate and they end up voting them into the final 15 moderns (Everson Walls a few years) so they have chance to be at least discussed. But since several modern candidates each year end their modern eligibility, its not reasonable to get all of them in the 15 and in front of voters for debate. Getting advanced to semifinalist list can help (Carl Banks in recent years), but since the voters don’t meet and discuss the 25, that step is likely not as helpful as one might think.
I could potentially see Hull, Ellard or O’Neal making the semifinalist list this year, but I agree that the chances of them breaking past that point are slim. Hull at this point just doesn’t have time in his side, while Ellard and O’Neal have a lot of competition at their respective positions over the next few classes.
O’Neal had a small window over the past couple of years, but with Allen, Freeney, Ware and Peppers all becoming eligible over the next few classes, he (and Neil Smith who has a similar set of credentials) are likely ticketed to the senior pool.
Unlike Ellard and Hull though, I think that the lack of depth in the senior pool at his position probably bodes well for O’Neal. The only DE in the senior pool that seems close to a nomination or induction is Greenwood.
Its sad for O’Neil because he was better against the run than most of the pass rushers coming up …
Ellard did have Anderson for about four or five seasons but didnt have HOF teammates like Wayne, Holt or Welker nor a great QB but probably wont get very far.
If one more person, including those in the media, refer to Joe Buck as a PFHOFer or that he will be inducted into the Hall and get Gold Jacket my head may explode!!! Thursday night the NFL social media post, Troy Aikman, and many others in media and public made all too common mistake of referring to him a PFHOFer. There is no writers, media or journalist “wing” of the the Hall, the award is handed out by the Hall and their names are added to plaque in the Hall, but that is the extent of the recognition of the honor by the PFHOF.
It happens very year with the Rozelle TV Media Award (presented by the PFHOF) and the McCann Writers Award (announced by Hall and also presented at the Gold Jacket Banquet in August). These are both great honors and no disrespect intended to the winners, but they do not make the PFHOF- no induction, no enshrinement, gold jacket, no bronze bust!! UGGGGG
Dont mince words Paul … tell us how you really feel … haha
OK I admit is a major pet peeve, but inducted/enshrined as a PFHOFer is a great honor, everyone should be careful about applying on to those that have been given the honor
RIP Larry Wilson- A truly dominant Safety for the St. Louis Cardinals
Any predictions on new semifinalists this year? There are at least 6 open slots with last year’s inductees off the list and Carl Banks now in the senior pool.
It is a pretty strong first year class with Peyton Manning and Charles Woodson obviously locks, Calvin Johnson and Jared Allen pretty close to locks and Kevin Williams probably will make the semi list too. Logan Mankins is also a strong candidate so it’s quite possible we will get 6 first timers on the list.
Steve Wisniewski, Leslie O’Neal and Albert Lewis are by my count the only players left in the modern era pool that have made the semi list, but didn’t make the cut to that round last year. I feel like Wisniewski is due for a return.
In terms of first time semi finalist guesses, my top 5 would be:
Donovan McNabb
Ben Coates
Neil Smith
Cornelius Bennett
Eric Allen
This would by my 25 finalist list. Strange with no coach’s, but thrilled about it.
1. Peyton Manning
2. Charles Woodson
3. Alan Faneca
4. Calvin Johnson
5. Tony Boselli
6. Richard Seymour
7. Jared Allen
8. John Lynch
9. Bryant Young
10. Patrick Willis
11. Zach Thomas
12. Torry Holt
13. LeRoy Butler
14. Reggie Wayne
15. Cornelius Bennett
16. Sam Mills
17. Logan Mankins
18. Steve Wisniewski
19. Shaun Alexander
20. Darren Woodson
21. Leslie O’Neal
22. Albert Lewis
23. Clay Matthews
24. Ronde Barber
25. Ben Coates
DE Jared Allen
RB Shaun Alexander
DB Ronde Barber
OT Tony Boselli
S LeRoy Butler
G Alan Faneca
WR Torry Holt
WR Calvin Johnson
S John Lynch
QB Payton Manning
LB Clay Matthews Jr
LB Sam Mills
G Logan Mankins
DE Simeon Rice
DL Richard Seymour
WR/ST Steve Tasker
RB Fred Taylor
LB Zach Thomas
WR Hines Ward
RB Ricky Watters
WR Reggie Wayne
LB Patrick Willis
CB Charles Woodson
S Darren Woodson
DT Bryant Young
Manning
C Woodson
D Woodson
Johnson
Faneca
Thomas
Nalen
Boselli
Butler
Lynch
Willis
Young
Seymour
O’Neal
E Allen
J Allen
Hull
Ellard
Ward
Samuel
Tasker
Mankins
Wisniewski
Barber
K Williams
Wanted to add Harrison, Lewis, Dillon, Walker and Mitchell but its a tough road for those guys.
The young pups can wait, though Tillman, Dunn, Holt and Wayne are deserving …
Andy or Tony, trying to send you emails but getting delivery status failure notification back
Which Barber Brian?
Ronde Barber … Tiki has a shot as well.
RIP Gayle Sanders
A true football Comet …
Sayers
What a legend as a player and as a human being!
sorry for the delays, but look for a fresh new tread on class of 2021 modern candidates (including several guest predictions) soon.
RIP Edward Van Halen
RIP Fred Dean
So sad about Fred Dean…an absolute terror off the edge. When I first noticed Chase Young at Ohio State, I immediately thought of Fred Dean.
The Forty-niners had three of the greatest pass rushers I have ever seen in Hardman, Dean and Haley … Aldon Smith could have joined them but gets a second chance in Dallas …
I hope Hardman makes the HOF …
I truly believe Don Coryell would have won a SB with the Chargers if they could have kept Fred Dean …
Kind of an off the cuff comment, isn’t Cedric Hardman like Sean Jones and Coy Bacon?
Are their any DL players in the HOF who are regard as primarily “sack specialist”. It feels like to me Claude Humphrey could be the last 1970’s DL player put in the HOF.
L.C. Greenwood and Harvey Martin?? I’d be just fine with either or both making the HOF. I see no one after that. I wasn’t a supporter of Humphrey (very close) but he had the accolades.
Havent heard from you in awhile TonyP
Dean was full time with SD but situational with the 49ers as they created their “elephant” position that Haley and Smith also excelled in.
The HOF put both Dean and Haley in based on pure ability, because Dean had down seasons getting less than 100 regular season sacks and Haley was at 100 but they both won multiple championships while Hardman also won a championship with 126 reg season sacks with another 12 in postseason but cant get elected …
TonyP did you get my email with material for a new topic ?
I don’t think so Paul. I’ll double check.
Johnny Robinson receivesthe “The Angel Award”. Nice that he’s getting the recognition!!
His segment starts in the 38th minute.
https://www.lpb.org/programs/angel-award
No Paul, I never recieved. You must of sent to my old email address. My email is aparslow82@gmail.com
Thanks.
Ok will resend
story emailed TonyP
Paul, my brother just told me this afternoon that I have an HOF article draft from you. My apologies – I missed it. We’ll get it up in the next couple days. Thanks.
RIP Herb Adderley
I will second that Bill …
A great corner, with a great clothesline tackle, Adderley was part of six championship teams, including helping the Cowboys get over the hump … If Adderley would have started the 1972/73 NFC Championship game against Washington instead of Charlie Waters, Dallas would have met Miami in consecutive SB’s.
Sorry folks, not sure where we are with a new thread for class of 2021 elections
After the cut to 25 Semifinalists ?
RIP Sir Sean Connery
The Only Bond … James Bond
We are working on one, not sure where we are in posting.
RIP Paul Hornung- A true all-purpose back who was a major part of the Pack dynasty.
Class of 2021 modern semi-finalists will be announced on NFL Network, 1p Tuesday November 24th
RIP Jake Scott, Paul Hornung
Both great players on great teams. Scott and fellow teammate Dick Anderson have deserved the HOF for a long time but cancelled each other out …
Hoping the new thread is out by Thanksgiving. Thanks Paul, Tony, Tony and Andy …
I had always hoped Jake Scott might be considered by the Senior committee. That safety group has been cut into the last couple of years, Sadly if he were to get nominated at this point he isn’t around to enjoy it.
RIP to a great football player – Jake Scott.
He personified toughness and was a key player on the Miami Dolphins Defense. That Team went on to have one of the greatest five year stretches of any Team in NFL history. To me it’s a shame only one player from that great Defense is in the HOF. Unfortunately they were labeled as “no-name” and a finesse defensive that bent but didn’t break. That was B.S.!! They had some of the toughest SOB’s in the League at the time lead by hard nosed Coaches like Don Shula.
Jake Scott has the standing and accolades. It’s time he be recognized as one of the greatest Safeties of all-time, certainly in his own time!! He came into the League as a top prospect and lived up to it. What more need he have done. He played ten years if you consider the CFL. Sad he won’t get to enjoy like other great players have. At least Johnny Robinson got his due. Praise God that injustice wasn’t left to continue. .
Scott could very likely be another Ken Stabler?? Time will tell but if he makes into HOF in the next several years it will look suspicious to me. The politics involved doesn’t look good when a Floyd Little and Dick LeBeau who are lesser accomplished players but because they are beloved by their community and the NFL, can enjoy HOF status for many years and a better player and winner like Jake Scott can’t get a sniff. If it walks like a duck……. Has Scott ever made the final 10 players? Maybe it isn’t as it appears but the short changing doesn’t look good to me for the HOF institution. They did the same thing to Alex Karras. If not for the special Commision maybe he would still be on the outside? The timing is really suspect for a handful of these these standout players IMO.
I see 6 votes for jared Allen as Hall of Very Good. I’m just curious if anyone can give perspective on that viewpoint? I don’t agree!
I think Allen is very comparable to Jack Youngblood maybe just a notch below. IMO Youngblood was a HOF lock despite it taking him a few years longer than one might expect. That might be a sign Allen may wait a little longer too, more than most of us think but no doubt in my mind he’s deserving of HOF.
Allen had such a great motor, JJ Watt like! And what an athlete and QB sack artist with his cat like quickness. He did his share of tacking too though not all- time Reggie or Bruce great, very very good.
I agree TonyP …
Its a shame about Scott and Anderson. Its amazing how after Kiick, Csonka and Warfield left, it seemed like the Dolphins were racked with injury problems that obviously kept those two safeties as well as Stanfill and others, out of the HOF … The Dolphins had too much talent not to make more postseason noise from 75-80 but once they lost that trio of players, the air was let out of the team …
Ya, the Dolphins were killed with injures in 1975 after the trio left for the WFL and some were career ending. Some of the injuries could be overcome today. That’s why I think the HOF should consider slightly shorter careers with a little more seriousness.
Honestly, I doubt the Dolphins would of had much for the Steelers who were stacked on both sides. Maybe if they were in the NFC. Hahaha The Dolphins had a last hurrah with Csonka but in the end the Steelers steamrolled them in the Playoffs. Miami really over achieved in those years and IMO those years were where Shula earned so much respect. Than he gets a team led by David Woodley to the SB. LOL!
I wonder if any Head Coach has had more heartbreaking loses than Don Shula? lol I suppose Tom Landry, Bud Grant, or Marv Levy? Shula reminds me of another one of my idols, Jack Nicklaus. Usually the greatest of all -time who are so competitive come up just short a lot with some incredibly disappointing finishes.
I just remember those years where the Dolphins came so close to making the Playoffs, or one and done in the Playoffs or the SB losses. It was damn tough being a Dolphins fan,lol experiencing the pinnacle as 9-10 year old than sooooo many years of winning but never winning it all again. Just one big tease! LOL At least Jack won the Masters at 46. :) I know Shula won his share not like some fan bases that never win much but it’s heartbreak that’s so ingrained especially in football where only one Team wins every year and no series. Losses are so final and zero solace for being competitive like in a series.
Would have to be Grant or Levy because they were so close … though both won in Canada but Levy also lost with the Redskins in 72. Five SB losses is tough to swallow.
Levy was a great coach but a bit overrated. His canadian career helped him as well.
Still, what a run for Buffalo from 88-93.
Getting to the SB four consecutive seasons was a remarkable and historical accomplishment and reason why Levy is in Hall, it’s that simple
Thats true but Dan Reeves went to three SB’s in four years … Why cant he be voted in ?
Like the Broncos, the Bills got dominated in three of four games despite five HOF players and Tasker, Bennett and Hull, worthy as well.
TonyP … If you like throwback jersies, check out the Bob Griese jersey on ebbetts.com
Wanting a #42 Warfield as well, with Cleveland or Miami … hoping they put out a Dallas #43 Don Perkins jersey but many cool 50s-60s jersies.
I’d rather have Griese than Marino, he won something! Haha
I think it’can be awful disappointing to barely miss the Playoffs when you grow to expect it. The Cowboys only missed one time over a a very long stretch. Until the Patriots they must of had the record.?
I know Cowboy fans were kind of reeling fans when they went 8-6 in 1974 with a very good team. They had Staubach every game that year with Calvin Hill and Drew Pearson. They lost to Oakland and George Blanda on the last Sunday 27-23 but didn’t matter because St.Louis and Washington bested them at 10-4. It probably didn’t help mood of the team knowing Hill was out the door at end to WFL. That year came after two bitter pill losses in Conference Championships in 1972 and 73.
Dallas had several disappointing losses in the Playoffs when they were favored at home and on the verge of making SB. I gotta think Landry or Grant or Shula suffered the most disappointment with tough losses since they were around so long with top teams. It’s so hard I guess you’d have to sit down and figure out.
I did say heartbreaking originally, so I suppose that would mean really close losses although when you get as far as Championship game and lose they would be heartbreaking. . The Bills only had one of those in the SB and the Vikings didn’t have any close losses. Oh boy, I forgot Marty Schottenheimer and Chuck Knox!! Lol OMG how many times did “Marty ball” disappoint in really big games? I can’t picture him without feeling bad for him. Dan Reeves too but I don’t think his Teams were favored like Marty’s.
Bill Belichick is saying he believes James White may be the best 3rd down running back of all time. That seems kind of hard to believe but maybe? The first name that comes to my mind is Rickey Young for the Vikings. Also wasn’t James Brooks a 3rd down back? No I can’t believe White is better than James Brooks. Eric Metcalf was pretty darn good too.
This Derrick Henry looks special to me. What a physical specimen reminds me of Herschal Walker with his straight up style, size and speed. I think he may have better moves than Herschal. It will be interesting to see if he can make up for a slow start to career and have a HOF career.
I still remember living in Minnesota for Walker”s first year with the Vikings. He was savaged by the Press like few have I have ever been for not having the moves to break tackles. When you give up 12 players for a guy and he looks bad that will happen. Lol i felt sorry for him!
Vikings WR Rookie Justin Jefferson has the look of a superstar!!
Yes, but Landry and Shula won multiple championships so the disappointment has to fall more on Levy with Reeves and Grant following behind … Remember Levy also lost a tough game to the Bengals in the 1988 AFC Championship game, so he definitely knows bitter losses, like Schottenheimer and Madden before he finally won the SB.
Reeves had one HOF player on his teams, though Gradishar, Wright, Smith and Mecklenberg are worthy, which isnt close to what Levy had in Buffalo. Atwater was still a pup, when Reeves went to the Giants.
I like James White but Kevin Faulk was more valuable for Brady during his time there, in my view. Darren Sproles I believe, was the best third down, scat type back that I saw.
I get what youre saying about Walker, TonyP but he wasnt utilized properly in Minnesota.
Like Adrian Peterson now with the Lions, Walker with the Vikings and Eagles needed carries to get going, then would be a load on a defense but the Vikings wanted to throw the ball to Anthony, Chris Carter and Jordan.
Theyre line really wasnt built for smash mouth football but it really would have helped their excellent defense because Wilson and Kramer at QB could run hot or cold.
I forgot about Sproles he’s a good choice. Faulk fit very well with what the Patriots did. Dave Megget and Ronnie Coleman good too. I still remember the Oiler’s Coleman killing my Dolphins with a 10 yard TD along the sideline where he seemed to break the tackles of the whole team. lol It was such a tough loss and ended up keeping a really good 10-4 team out of the Playoffs. Kind of neat to look at a snap shot in history. Somewhere there must be film of that horrid run. lol
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/11/17/archives/dolphin-streak-ended-2019-by-bubba-smith-and-oilers.html
Walker needed space with a deep 7 yard set like Marcus Allen and I think he was in standard two back set. He could never get a head of steam up and there was no where to run. I mainly think they weren’t very good in 1990 maybe because they got away from the run in earlier years with Kramer. I can’t even remember a decent RB after Chuck Foreman.lol Maybe Darren Nelson?/ I know they like to throw that ball to TE Jordan.
Best Monday Night game ever? Not for me. lol Maybe the greatest atmosphere. :) Nat Moore was the greatest 1 PB WR ever IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlsVtExIBlc
Remember Ted Brown for the Vikes ? He was fun to watch, especially in the passing game but with Kramer and Wilson, they loved to throw the ball. I thought Anthony Carter was one of the toughest players who ever played, especially for his small size. Was it Nelson or another player that dropped that pass on the goal line in the playoffs, that kept Minn from tying the Redskins in the 87/88 NFC Champ game ? A tough loss …
I thought Nat Moore was very underrated and crucial to Griese and Marinos success. He allowed the Marks Brothers to operate outside …
Oh I forgot about Terry Allen. Maybe he’s later? I do remember Ted Brown.
I’ve got Travis Kelce 2/5, Tyreek Hill 2/4 and Pat Mahomes 1/2 with tickets into the HOF after this year even if they never claim another accolade beyond what they will get this year. lol They are all amazing talents who must work extremely hard. Hill reminds me of Dante Hall but he’s a great receiver.
To Brian. It was definitely Darrin Nelson that dropped that pass. As brutal as Gary Anderson’s FG versus the Dirty Birds of Atlanta. Earnest Byners “The Fumble” or Scott Norwoods. “Wide right”
Spending on who you are the fan of. Each as brutal as the other. There was Jackie Smiths drop for Cowboys vs Steelers.
Thanks Ed …
Being an old Cowboy fan, that Jackie Smith drop was huge. Staubach blames himself but Smith was supposed to just cross the goalline and sit … instead, he goes to the back of the endzone and the pass is just underthrown.
That drop by Ronnie Harmon against the Browns in the 89/90 playoffs for Buffalo was huge too. It may have hastened his exit from Buffalo though he had a good career.
The Fumble by Byner was incredible too. I thought the Browns were going to win in 86/87 and 87/88 …
Seattle had their heartbreak against NE in 14/15 … If the receiver Lockette had went hard for Wilson’s high pass or Baldwin had run off Butler … they go back-to-back …
Excited for the semifinal list tomorrow.
Hope some surprise veterans make the list but they’re a lot of excellent first-year eligibles.
Paul I am at work … can you keep us updated on who makes the semifinalist list ?
Thanks …
Congratulations to all 25 Semifinalists !
Welcome new candidates, Eric Allen, Rodney Harrison, Willie Anderson and Cornelius Bennett …
Tasker, Young, Mills, Matthews and Taylor make it again, amongst veterans …
Disappointed that Samuel, Mankins, Williams, O Neil, Hull, Ellard, Nalen, Wisniewski did not.
I predicted 17 out of 25 …
Missed on …
Nalen
O Neil
Hull
Ellard
Samuel
Mankins
Williams
Wisniewski
So far Paul has the best prediction …
Bill has one over me …
21/25 I think, missed on Allen, Anderson, Bennett and Harrison-but I really doubt any of those four advance to final 15 this election. The cut down from 130 to 25 is a pretty brutal one. You could easy substitute several of these 25 with others just as deserving.
Only Watters and Rice missed from last year.
Though Taylor was a better runner, Watters was a better receiver and has a ring.
Doubt O Neil will ever get in, but maybe much later, especially with Allen, Ware, Freeney and Peppers on deck …
I know Johnson had the shorter career Paul but we are talking DETROIT … I think he gets in, first ballot …
My Picks for 2021
Manning
Woodson
Woodson
Faneca
Thomas
My Predictions …
Manning
C Woodson
Johnson
Faneca
Thomas
Since Gale Sayers in 1977, no modern candidate with careers of under 10 years has been elected first ballot. I don’t think Calvin Johnson gets in this election as voters are really dismissive of first ballot WR and short career candidates-its my prediction that his omission will be the most controversial aspect of the election.
Thanks Paul …
Never knew Sayers was first ballot.
I had thought Barry Sanders at ten years, had the shortest career on first ballot election.
Paul’s prediction post (slightly modified for today’s announcement) is finally posted: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2020/11/24/picking-the-class-of-2021-hall-of-fame-semifinalists-announced/