Recently, I’ve heard the question asked on local sports radio about the Hall of Fame worthiness of Kurt Warner, and also recently discovered that Edgerrin James became the 13th leading rusher all time–and all of the top 12 that are eligible are all in the Hall of Fame.
We’ve had a good discussion about the 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame inductees, so I thought maybe we should put the topic up for discussion here–are the following active players Hall of Fame worthy?
QB Kurt Warner – Career 94.6 QB rating, 65.7% completion percentage, 27,000 yards (and counting), and 172 touchdowns seem to say yes. Late start to his career, and injuries and inconsistencies from 2002-2006 might say no.
RB Edgerrin James – 11,192 yards rushing and counting and 428 catches for 3,333 yards say yes. The RB highest on the list of all-time rushing yards not in the Hall is Ricky Watters at #20. However, not having won a Super Bowl, and reputation for bad attitude (deserved or not) might hurt his chances.
WR Randy Moss – Moss has been a statistical freak since joining the NFL, and has 6 Pro Bowls and 4 All-Pro selections to back it up. You have to wonder if his “Play when I want to play” mantra, lack of effort during two years in Oakland, and off-field issues will hurt him. They aren’t supposed to, but…
C Tom Nalen – Nalen has been the key to a line that has led the way for six different 1,000-yard backs in his tenure, and has won two Super Bowl rings. But he has only five Pro Bowl appearances and one first team All-Pro selections, due in part to strength at the position. That depth at center might (probably will?) keep him out.
C Kevin Mawae – Like Nalen, Mawae has been a consistent perfomer at center–albeit for three different teams. He had a streak of 177 straight starts at one point in his career, and has six Pro Bowl appearances and two first team All-Pro selections. Like Nalen, you have to wonder if the strength at the position will hurt him–and players like Olin Kreutz, Jeff Saturday, and Matt Birk.
S Rodney Harrison – Harrison is the only player in NFL history to record 30 sacks and 30 interceptions in his career. He has two Super Bowl championships, and has appeared in two other Super Bowls. However, he also is a rarity in that he has more first team All-Pro selections (three) than Pro Bowl appearances (two), likely due to his reputation as a dirty player–and one has to wonder if that reputation will work against him come HOF time.
DE Jason Taylor – Three time first team All-Pro, six time Pro Bowler, and the 2006 AP NFL Defensive Player of the Year. Almost 700 career tackles, 118 sacks (and counting), 41 forced fumbles, 7 interceptions, 8 career touchdowns (all time career leader for defensive lineman)…an impressive resume. So why do I feel like he’s not a sure thing?
K Adam Vinatieri – 22 game winning kicks, including several in the playoffs and at least 1 or 2 Super Bowls say yes. The fact that he’s a kicker might say no.
RB Clinton Portis – Might be too early to tell with Portis–he’s only been in the league since 2002. He was rookie of the year, and has just under 9,000 career rushing yards already. If he keeps up the pace, he would seem like a sure thing–but he also takes quite a pounding, and has never been All-Pro. Add his…unique personality, and you wonder if he’ll get support if he doesn’t crack the top five all time rushing yardage…
S Darren Sharper – Four time All-Pro, four time Pro Bowler, 54 career interceptions.
S John Lynch – Nine time Pro Bowler, two time first team All-Pro, Super Bowl ring, 26 picks and 13 sacks in his career. I believe his new broadcast partner Chris Rose called him a lock for Canton–I’m not sure…
LB Brian Urlacher – I’m sure Bears fans have already started carving their bust for Urlacher. And his six Pro Bowls and four first team All-Pro selections seem to have him on his way. But I’ve always thought he was vastly overrated–if he doesn’t have DT in front of him, he tends to disappear. And the Bears defense seems to have been up and down, even with him on the field. If he adds a couple more All-Pro selections, I’d probably put him in…
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So, what do you think? Who did we miss? Who is in for sure? Who is out for sure? Leave your thoughts in the comments below…
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Hi all,
I’m assuming you are intentionally leaving off guys currently playing who are generally considered to be locks already(like Brett Favre and Marvin Harrison) so I’ll try to avoid those when I list some additional names below. As far as the players listed here my initial thoughts are as follows:
Warner – Interesting case. There’s been good discussions recently about his HOF worthiness on the Football Outsiders and Pro Football Researchers Association sites. He has some pretty strong points both for (2 time MVP, Super Bowl MVP, thrown for over 300 yards in just over 45% of the games he’s played in) and against (as mentioned above, the mostly “lost years” from 2002-06). Becoming only the second player (Favre being the other) to be named NFL MVP three times(though that seems a little less likely to happen than it did about a month ago) and/or getting the Cardinals deep into the playoffs would boost his chances a good deal, though even then he probably wouldn’t be a lock.
Edge- The numbers (including four 1,500 yard + rushing seasons) are impressive but, for various reasons, he hasn’t looked like the same back with the Cards that he did with the Colts and now it appears that he’s just about done, so he probably won’t be adding much more to those totals. I think he’s also hurt not so much by the fact that he doesn’t have a ring, but by the Colts finally getting over the hump the year after he left. Fair or not, it hurts him, perception wise. Tiki Barber also suffers from this, though his exit from the Giants was more dramatic than Edge’s exit from Indy and his overall case is not as strong. Edge could still make it, but it almost certainly won’t be on his first two or three tries.
Moss- I think he’s a lock, probably the only one out of all the guys listed. I think any doubts about his HOF-worthiness were erased with that monster season he had in 2007.
Nalen & Mawae – Not before Dermontti Dawson, after that…maybe, though I think both are borderline.
Harrison, Sharper & Lynch – I don’t like the guy but Harrison probably has the best case of the three though the negatives (dirty player, PED bust) may keep him out. Lynch is a classic example of why # of Pro Bowl selections shouldn’t be weighted too heavily when trying to decide a player’s HOF worthiness. I’d say at least three of Lynch’s nods were based on name rec./previous rep. Brian Dawkins (34 career ints., 20 career sacks; four time first-team All Pro/ 6 time Pro Bowler) should also be added to this group. Really, while safety is a very under-represented position in the HOF, there are plenty of 60’s through 90’s guys who have just as (and in a few cases, better) cases than the guys listed above. Plus, you also have guys like Reed and Polamalu (and maybe Bob Sanders) who may end up being more worthy by the time their careers are over.
Taylor – With the exception of Moss, I think he’s currently got the best shot of anyone on the list. Maybe not first-ballot worthy, but I think he’s deserving of getting in at some point.
Vinatieri – Fair or not his “clutch” reputation may well give him the edge over guys like Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson. Probably wouldn’t hurt if he built his overall numbers up a little more, though.
Portis – Yeah, too early.
Urlacher- Agreed, probably needs another All-Pro nod or two, or at least he should.
Ok, here’s some others to add:
T.O. – Surprised he wasn’t named. Yes, he has huge behavior/character issues, but the Pro Football HOF doesn’t have a character clause (at least, not officially) and, based strictly on his on-field production, how can you argue he isn’t worthy?
Alan Faneca – 5 time first-team All Pro/7 time Pro Bowler. He’ll most likely be one of the guards on the All-Decade team for the 2000’s, as well. If he was a receiver or a running back, he’d be a lock with that list of honors but he’s a guard, so he may need another All Pro nod or two to firm up his chances.
Hines Ward – Based strictly on the numbers, he probably wouldn’t make it, but Hines is definitely a “beyond the numbers” type of player. The fact that he spent most of his prime playing in a run-first offense with Qbs that were either mediocre (Kordell Stewart), a flash in the pan (Tommy Maddox) or a rookie, albeit a very good rookie (Roethlisberger) has to be taken into account. His willingness (or perhaps, more accurately eagerness) to block downfield and his excellent postseason numbers (including an MVP performance in Super Bowl XL) help him stand out from guys with otherwise similar resumes like Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, Joey Galloway and Mushin Muhammed, though Hines still has a good chance of passing all of them on the all-time receiving lists.
Isaac Bruce – Yep, another receiver. The numbers would seem to indicate that he should be, but he’s hurt by a couple things. 1) His long-time Rams teammate Torry Holt was generally considered the more “feared” of the two when they were playing together and there’s a good chance that he’ll pass Bruce on the all-time receiving lists by the time he’s done. 2)Bruce was never named first-time All Pro, though you could make a good case that he should’ve been at least a couple of times.
Champ Bailey & Ty Law – Law has 52 career ints. including 7 touchdowns but could be hurt by the fact that he was only first-team All Pro once. Bailey has a first-team All Pro/Pro Bowl profile of 3/8 but after a couple of monster seasons in 2005 and 2006, his numbers have dropped considerably the last two seasons. Yes, that’s partly because opposing teams got wise and stopped throwing toward his side of the field, but it’s also because he’s been banged up (particularly this season). Still, i think he’s got the better case of the two and he’ll probably make it in at some point.
Good call on T.O.–realized I missed him on my way home today. #10 all time receiver right now–yes, only thing that probably keeps him out is his attitude. Probably only delays him.
I left Bruce off because I assumed since he is #3 all time in receiving yards (might be #2 by now?) that he’s in.
Fanacea I could see getting in, but agree that being a G in today’s game, with no background at T hurts him. Wouldn’t have guessed that Bailey was the better between him and Law–could see both making it. Law has always been a force in the playoffs (when his teams make it), if I recall.
I don’t think Ward makes it, unless he sticks around for quite a while longer, and possibly needs to help his team win another Super Bowl. But I could be wrong on that.
Yeah, going by his numbers you would think Bruce is in, but something tells me he may get lost in the mix by the time he’s eligible.
Law’s post season performance does help him, though he was injured during the Patriots 2004 Super Bowl run. All things considered, I’d say it’s probably 50/50 whether he makes it in or not.
Assuming he stays healthy, I could see Ward playing another three or four seasons. Getting another ring certainly wouldn’t hurt, especially if he’s a major contributor to another SB run.
Moss, Harrison, Taylor, Lynch and Urlacher all seem to have the “pop” to make it in eventually.
I was getting all set to push for Hines Ward, but after looking closely at his numbers, I decided you guys are probably right. I figure that 4 more years, averaging about 50-60 catches, 700 yds, and 7 TDs puts him in the top 10 in career catches and TD receptions and in the top 20 in receiving yards. IF the Steelers win another Super Bowl in that time AND he continues to contribute in the playoffs at close to his current rate (these are all very big ifs!) then he’d have a very strong case. I don’t know if I see all of that happening, though.
The Pro Bowl really should be set aside as a way to judge a player’s career at this point. Fan voting has too strong an effect on who gets in nowadays, and that’s NO way to choose Hall of Famers. Not to mention, even the journalists and players and coaches have to get their votes in before week 15 is over! That’s 12.5% of the season that a player’s performance CANNOT be considered! Anybody want to argue that the last few weeks of the season aren’t as important as the others? I thought not. If anything, they’re MORE important. Pro Bowl appearances (which was always sort of an arbitrary way of ranking candidates anyway) are now a COMPLETELY INVALID judge of a candidate’s worthiness. This fact will, unfortunately, skew how we look at every candidate, even those from years prior to fan voting and from when only one week was excluded from consideration (still too much of the season to exclude if this is supposed to be important!) The Pro Bowl is sort of a joke anyway. Everybody wants to be named to the team, but nobody actually wants to play in the game anymore! There are so many players who opt out every year and are then replaced that we are ending up with an inflated number of players who can claim that they were Pro Bowlers! Nobody watches the darn thing, either. Better to just name the teams and NOT play the game. That way you don’t have to get the roster named so early because there’s no game to promote and no tickets to Hawaii to dole out. Oh, and GET RID of FAN VOTING! Do ALL of this and then MAYBE Pro Bowl selections would again be a valid part of measuring the greatness of a player’s career. As it is, it will not be for the current group of players when their turn comes up for Hall consideration.
1. The one closest to a guarantee here is Randy Moss. He’s not done yet, likely has some good seasons ahead of him at age 31. And he’s already excellent in the counting numbers department, lifetime 3rd in TDs, 11th in yards, 15th in catches, plus his postseason profile is 4/6. He may not be a “first ballot” guy because of perceptions about attitude and work ethic as well as a somewhat pedestrian 15.6 yd/catch lifetime average. But he’s getting in. Terrell Owens, as poorly perceived as he may be as a teammate, will also get in for the same reason (8th in catches, 6th in yards, 2nd in TDs, 5/6 postseason profile) but he’s 35, and I’m guessing Moss passes him if he stays healthy.
2. Brian Urlacher is likely a yes as well (4/6 profile,’05 Def. Player of the Year), though there’s a persisting perception that he’s very overrated. He’ll likely get in, but after some waiting.
3. Jason Taylor has some chance of being elected (3/6, ’06 DPoY), but he’ll have competition in Strahan, Sapp, and perhaps Richard Seymour. If yes, he’ll wait a good while.
4. Edgerrin James may make it in or may be one of the better RBs out. He’s probably about done by now. It’s a lock that Emmitt Smith, Curtis Martin, LaDanian Tomlinson, and Marshall Faulk will make it, and Jerome Bettis will likely get elected after a bit of a wait. James could sneak in with what he’s got now for numbers, or if he has another strong year or two in his tank, assure himself of making it. If not, there’s a chance he’ll be stuck with the Corey Dillons, Warrick Dunns, Fred Taylors, Eddie Georges, and Ottis Andersons out there.
5. John Lynch probably has the best HoF chance of any safety of his era, but whether that’s enough remains to be seen. It sure hasn’t helped guys ranging from Jim Patton to Kenny Easley to Leroy Butler. But 2/9 is a pretty good postseason profile, and having a SB ring playing alongside Warren Sapp won’t hurt. He’ll be up against other noteworthy guys, especially Brian Dawkins (4/6) who wouldn’t look out of place in the HoF given the competition.
More on the way.
1. Darren Sharper, Rodney Harrison. Don’t see either getting in ahead of Lynch or Dawkins — all four are safeties. Sharper’s profile is actually 1/4 (not 4/4, only 1st team all pro year was 2000) and Harrison’s is 2/2, not exactly overwhelming. Am also thinking Harrison’s reputation for dirty play will cancel out any intangible boosts he gets otherwise. Am thinking no way for either.
2. Clinton Portis — way too early to tell. See where he is in about 6 years, then maybe we’ll be able to evaluate better.
3. Tom Nalen, Kevin Mawae. Given how tough it’s been for Dermontti Dawson (6/7/90s) to even become a finalist so far, I’m thinking these guys get lost in the shuffle along with Olin Kreutz and Jeff Saturday. Would be very surprised if Dawson doesn’t get in eventually. But Mawae’s probably got the best chance of any of these four not named Dawson with a 2/6 profile and another 1st team all pro selection possible this year. Nalen’s only got a 1/5 profile, about the same as Kreutz’s 1/6. Saturday’s at 2/3 but has some active years left to add on to these totals.
4. Adam Vinateri is no more likely to go in the HoF than any other kicker, unless he finishes at the top of the heap in counting stats upon retirement, “clutch” kicks be darned. He’d have to leapfrog over Morten Andersen, Gary Anderson, and Nick Lowery, who may have a tough enough time as it is. If he makes it over all the rest, it will be the ultimate triumph of Kodak moments over substance.
5. Kurt Warner is an unusual case, as no other QB has a career like his, in or out of the HoF. Warner has two spectacular years (1999 and 2001), an excellent but injury shortened 2000, and is working on another excellent year this year. But he has very little else, including three just OK seasons (2004, 2005, 2007) where he only played 10, 10, and 14 games respectively, and four other years where he played 7 or fewer games. It’s not even close when you compare him to the best of his peers (Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Brett Favre). Typically, borderline QBs don’t get a SB win boost unless they amass at least 3 SB wins (Aikman, Bradshaw), Joe Namath notwithstanding. I don’t think he’s got much of a chance unless he leads the Cards to a SB win this year and has at least 3-4 more strong and healthy years with yet another SB win added on. At his age, that’s asking a lot.
More to come.
Regarding other players mentioned in comments, as well as a couple others:
1. Alan Faneca. It makes sense he’d get in with a 5/7 profile, but if Randall McDaniel is still not in the HoF after a couple years eligibility with a 7/12 profile (!), it may be closer than it should be for him. He’ll be up against the recently retired Will Shields (2/12) as well. I think they should all be elected, but then again Gene Hickerson had a 5/6 profile and waited forever before making it in as a Senior. It’ll be interesting to see where Steve Hutchinson (3/5 currently) end up in the mix.
2. Champ Bailey will likely be seen as the best CB of his time (not all that unreasonable a view, actually) and his 3/8 postseason profile will help a lot. Ty Law only sits at 2/5 currently, and Bailey’s surely getting in before him. Ronde Barber doesn’t look half bad here at 3/4 either, but he’s probably next in line after Law currently.
3. Again, one would think Isaac Bruce will be elected, but given that the HoF is more stringent with WRs than other offensive skill positions, there’s a chance he could slip through the cracks with the Stanley Morgans, Henry Ellards, Harold Jacksons, and Harold Carmichaels out there.
4. There are two active LBs who tend to fly under the radar in such discussions but have excellent arguments, Derrick Brooks (5/10) and Zach Thomas (5/7). They both clearly belong in, though Thomas in particular could miss out in the shuffle.
5. He’s had injury problems the last few years, but arguably the most deserving defensive player on the Patriots SB teams is not Rodney Harrison but Richard Seymour (3/5). He’s actually not an unreasonable option now, and if he gets consistently healthy again and adds a few more postseason honor notches under his belt, he’s got a really good chance.
6. Two OTs merit a look, Walter Jones (4/8) and Orlando Pace (3/7), with Jones having the better shot. Whether they get in will depend on how quickly recent retirees like Jonathan Ogden (4/11) and William Roaf (3/11) make it. And if the unlikely Tony Boselli (3/5 in very short career) is elected, their chances get a lot better.
7. There are some current players who are pretty clearly getting elected who weren’t mentioned above, including Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Marvin Harrison, Tony Gonzalez, Ray Lewis, and Junior Seau. I’m guessing they were too obvious for this exercise.
2. Yeah, I forgot about Barber. He’s got a chance, though I agree he’d be third in line after Bailey and Law.
3. Right, exactly. Remember, a lot of people thought Art Monk would waltz right into the HOF when he was still playing. The same thing that happened to Monk could happen to Bruce.
4. I would think Brooks is a lock, or at least he should be. I think he’s the most deserving out of all the guys who get mentioned from that late 90’s/early 2000’s Bucs D. Wow, Thomas has been first-team All Pro five times? I didn’t realize that. That definitely helps his case, though he’s still not a lock. He could end up like Randy Gradishar (2/7/1978 Defensive Player of the Year), who I think has a little bit better case.
5. Agree on Seymour
6. I think Jones is a lock. In addition to his All Pro/Pro Bowl numbers, he’ll probably be the LT on the All-Decade team for the 2000s. Pace? Maybe, but he’s missed quite a bit of time during his career due to injury. That will probably hurt him. If he makes it, I think it’ll be pretty far into his eligibility period.
I was hoping for some feedback on my point of view about the Pro Bowl as a prime way to judge a candidate for induction into the Hall of Fame.
Basically, my feeling is that the number of Pro Bowl teams a player is named to is fast becoming an INVALID way to assess his career when it comes time to vote for Hall of Fame induction. The advent of biased fan voting as 1/3 of the eventual score for each player is just part of the problem. The sad fact is that, no matter who the voter is, 12.5% of a player’s regular season performance from a year is NOT CAPABLE of being considered BY RULE. This is because all balloting has to be completed before the 16th week (15th game) of the season. On top of this, because so many players are actually opting out of playing the game nowadays, replacements are being named and artificially inflating the number of players who can claim to be Pro Bowlers.
I’m not asking that the Pro Bowl not be considered at all, but its strength as proof of greatness has been severely weakened. The voters quite often got things wrong before, anyway. Witness 1989, when Anthony Carter of the Vikings was named to the team when ALL 3 MEMBERS of the Redskins “Posse” had better numbers, but NONE made the team.
Should this be a seperate subject?
Brett Favre, Marshall Faulk, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Tony Gonzalaz, Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin and Ladainian Tomlinson, Randy Moss are definates. Depending on when they retire and when it comes up might not be first ballots though.
Kurt Warner I agree with everybody else but I do feel strongly that he will. With two more years. He’s only lacking total yards and we all know that is due to a late start. His missing years were on teams that didn’t want to use him other than to develop their quarterbacks that would be their franchises. (Eli, Leinhart) 65% is good for 2nd all time and 93 rating is good for forth all time. One superbowl win another apperance, 2nd best for a single season in yards 5th and 9th for Td’s single season. There’s a very good arguement that he should. And there’s still this season 4,290 yards with 2 games to go. Lastly very good touchdown to interception ratio. (which I think is highly overrated but used more and more)
The Edge again 2 more years and he’s got it. He is a little more realistic in years than Warner though. He’s 13 all time in yards. Remember most people will say that Emmit Smith is not the best running back but he’s number one in yards because of consistant and lengthy career. Marcus Allen didn’t even have 1000 yards for his last 12 seasons and only accomplished it 3 times yet he’s second in tds which lt will break this year and 10 in yards. So far I say yes on both.
Portis is to early to tell but it definately looks as if he’ll continue on that path I like him out of the backs leading today.
Brian Urlacher has alot more comp. than most of these. He’ll have to worry about the likes of Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis will go first.
For vinateri he only needs more years. He has a better fg% than both of the andersons and at long range also. I’m from mass if it were possible to give the mvp to a kicker I would have given to vinateri on the first superbowl. All three of the pats superbowls were by three points and two of them field goals with in one minute. Even in the colts superbowl he scored the most points not mannning. 3/4 field goals and two extra points to mannings one touchdown. I don’t think manning was the Mvp of the superbowl Dominic Rhodes was. But the Mvp status can be whole other topic.
To conclude their making harder to make the hall of fame so I may be way off. Two disappointments are Fred Taylor 4.6 yards per carry but just to injuries and Jamal Lewis he’s still only 29 but he’s a very long shot. Only player still playing with 2000 yards. second all time and only with 2000 yards and 295 in one game. Oh Probowls way overrated just stick to the numbers and player impact to the team.
I’m also assuming that you people are counting Tony Gonzalez and ray Lewis as locks, right? But here are a few other names to ponder, before you answer looka ttheir stats and what they have done post season-wise
1. Antonio Gates TE
2. Joey Porter LB
3. Shaun Alexander RB
4. Kerry Collins QB
5. Tedy Bruschi LB
6. Dwight Freeney DE
7. Lance Briggs LB
8. Fred Taylor RB
9. Donovan McNabb QB
10. Rhonde Barber DB
Billy that is a good list however some of the players need more time. Even Fred Taylor who is one of my favorites. He only has 80 touchdowns. Compared to like LT’s 123 in less time. Shaun Alexander didn’t have 10,000 yards and couldn’t even make the redskins he needs to do more there makeing it harder and harder to make it in. All those people have the possibility to make it though good list
Billy, am thinking that’s a good “way too early to tell” list except for Bruschi, who has a long enough career to judge and probably won’t make it.
Jason, kickers of Vinateri’s time are notably more accurate than those of even 10 years ago. You need to do a period adjustment to compare Vinateri and Anderson meaningfully. Also, I like tangible numbers where available, and both 1st team all pro selections and to a lesser extent pro bowl selections are indeed meaningful — they show what contemporaries thought of their quality of play (though recent pro bowl squads arguably mean less since fans also vote on them.
I do understand their usefulness and pure stats alone doesn’t always measure how good the player is to the rest of players. But too many times the popular player gets the award rather than the true mvp. It’s becoming a popularity contest rather than who deserves it. There are some stats that many people ignore like first downs. First downs by quarter whether the team is winning or losing. Come from behind wins fourth quarter comebacks. One thing that really bothers me is many people I talk with not puting Favre as an all time quarterback because of interceptions. Never mind the other records and leading his team back in games when they where losing. I got stop cause I’m getting way off all topics but sometimes I think people look at the wrong things and instead of the overall career and the things that truly matter. Thanks for the kicker % I’ll look into that I’m usually pretty good at noticing stats like that but good to know.
Jason–
1st team all pro selections are made by football writers, who if what I hear is true do a lot of homework (talking to other players, coaches, administrators, and such, and in some cases doing things like film study before deciding how to vote). It’s not necessarily a perfect system, but it’s pretty good. Guys like this take their task seriously and don’t, as I understand it, vote for just the best interviews or the most popular players. Pro bowls these days are 1/3 chosen by fan vote (that’s indeed popularity) with the rest by players and others in football (has a chance of being fairer in evaluation), which is why the Pro Bowl stats recently are potentially less reliable — didn’t used to be that way, though.
As for kickers, take a look at all the current lifetime leaders in FG percentage at the Pro Football Reference website. Of the current top 40, all but two were active in the 21st century, and of the top 25, 23 were active in 2008 and one each had had 2006 or 2007 as his final season. Tells you a lot right there.
Pro Football Reference and NFL.com is where I get most of my stats. I see what your talking about but that still doesn’t explain why Gary and Morten Anderson have only led the league once each and Vinateri has led the league twice. He’s still only a kicker and has to over come that to get in cause there aren’t many but it’s not worth talking about any more.
Jason, thanks for the reply. Since 1950, only 1 kicker has led the league in FG percentage 5 times (HoFer Lou Groza), 1 has done this 4 times (HoFer Jan Stenerud), 5 have done it 3 times (HoFer George Blanda, plus Nick Lowery, Toni Fritsch, Don Cockroft, and Garo Yepremian), and several have done this twice (Vinateri, Matt Stover, Eddie Murray, George Blair, Jim Bakken, Gene Mingo, Bobby Walston, and Bruce Gossett). It’s had to see a pattern here in HoF worth once you get below 4 times. If there is one, you’d have to argue that Fritsch, Cockroft, and Yepremian deserve extra credit over Vinateri.
There should be more kickers allowed in the HoF. Most of those guys have full careers Vinateri should have at least another eight to ten years and maybe two more championship rings. For their time those kickers were probally great and played on good teams. Like you said their percentages are noticeably different Career 69%, 52%,63%, 68% and so on. Some of them only have 1 all pro and probowl nominations. And you can add all their playoff field goals together to get Vinateri’s. I must say though I have never done this much research on kickers it was kind interesting. I hate to say it but but the colts may win this year that would be is fifth ring enough for all his fingers on one hand.
In my estimation their should be 4 more kickers in the HOF at some point
1. Adam Vinatieri
2. Mortan Anderson
3. Nick Lowery
4. Gary Anderson
and at some point but not soon 3 punters
1. Ray Guy
2. Reggie Roby
3. Jeff Feagles
Billy, good points, though am thinking Vinateri needs more counting stats, which he may indeed get if he stays healthy and productive long enough.
For punters, would make a special plea on behalf of Tommy Davis, who played for the 49ers in the ’50s and ’60s and also was a placekicker. Davis’s average yards per punt is a remarkably high 44.7. This is still good for 7th place all time and by far the best for any non-HoF punter with a sizable career who retired in the 20th century (the only other such folks who approach this are Sammy Baugh and Yale Lary, both in the HoF). Plus Davis was a devastatingly accurate extra point kicker, holding the record for consecutive XPTs made for about 50 years before being broken recently (he only missed 2 his entire career, hitting 348 in 350 attempts). His FG percentage was pretty pedestrian, though, his only career blemish. But when you consider that Davis’s home fields were erratically windy Candlestick Park and Kezar Stadium, his punting and XPT numbers are really remarkable, and his FG percentage might be more excusable. Folks grumbling about Ray Guy’s HoF omission might want to think hard about Davis’s case.
But the circumstance with punters and the HoF runs deeper than this. There are several HoF electors who wouldn’t ever vote for a pure punter any more than they would a long snapper or return specialist or special teams specialist. The thinking is that punters figure in at most 6-7 plays per game, and that’s just not enough to justify election. Kickers, so the thinking goes, have more riding on their efforts and may be more reasonable to elect. Not so sure I agree with all this, but there it is.
I have heard that too from people on the HoF board that they wouldn’t vote for a player who plays only 5 to 6 plays per game. Although I personally think that will at some time will change. Many teams consider special teams a third of the game. Where some people are getting drafted for special teams. Being from Massachusetts I know the Pats pretty well and people who watch the Patriots regularly know that Troy Brown and Kevin Faulk have been two of the most important players on the Patriots. Now the obvious Brady and Great Defense are their also. But I’m talking about two players who have never been starters but for a short window. Lead the team ALL time in all purpose yards. Yet both players are very important to championships. Listening to Belichick give press confrences and doing the Belistrator a (commentary on the previous game) he usually always comments on special teams. Many times when the Pats win he says we did well on special teams. And when the Pats lose he says we didn’t get it done on special teams. A team that can set itself up at 40 yard line has a better chance to score. Timing is another element that both of those players have come through on that there just starting to make stats for. Neither are HoF worthy the stats aren’t there. How do these Players get measured. Larry Izzo most people don’t know him. But he has been a team captain for eight straight years and have been in 3 probowls with never starting a game in 12 years. The problem will be how do you decipher over the last 75 years of football who on special teams deserves HoF honors. There was a time when special teams was just a way to get the ball back for your team now it’s specific people doing their specific job. I’m going to close with this thought Of the active players for all purpose yards Kevin Faulk is 17 between Shaun Alexander and steve Smith seems out of place! Maybe?
Here’s one for you: DT La’Roi Glover
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/rams/story/ED7C2CAC45FE7FB78625752B0015DA34?OpenDocument
Leonard Little thinks he should. I don’t think he’s done enough.
Thoughts?
No way on La’Roi Glover (1/6) unless he does something drastically big from here on in. Certainly not before Warren Sapp, Cortez Kennedy, John Randle, or Bryant Young, for four, as of now.
Leonard Little’s just pushing for a teammate here.
These are a mix between locks and borderlines.
Brett Favre- He is the leader in every major Passing stat. First Ballot lock.
Peyton Manning- 35,000 yards, 333 TD’s, two time NFL MVP, Super Bowl MVP. lock.
Tomy Brady- 26,000 yards, three super bowl rings, two time Super Bowl MVP, NFL MVP, 50 TD’s in one season. Lock.
Kurt Warner-28,000 yards, lead the league in TD’s twice, two time league MVP, Super bowl MVP.
Emmitt Smith- Most rushing yards, TD’s, attempts, second all time in yards from scrimmage, lock.
Curtis Martin- 14,101 rushing yards, 90 Rushing TD’s, 100 Total TD’s, 17,000 total yards. I think He is a Lock.
Jerome Bettis- 13,000 yards, 91 rushing TD’s, super bowl ring, Lock.
Marshall Faulk- 12,000 yards, 100 rushing Td’s, 136 total TD’s, 1,000 rushing 1,000 receiving season, 700 catches. Lock!
Jeff Feagles- 68,000 yards, 12 blocked. it would be hard punting him in because ray guy isn’t in. he will eventually make it b/c he has the most punting yards, punts, inside the 20, and he has a ring
Gino Cappelletti should be in. He has 292 catches for 4,589 yards, 42 TD’s. lead the league in points 4 times. his FG percentage is low, but he also had 3 Int’s in one game. He led the league in FG’s made 3 times. converted 4 two-points coverations, 3 in one year. afl mvp, 5 time pro bowler.
here are some more locks and borderline.
Ricky Watters- 10,000 yards, 91 total TD’s, 5 seasons with 50 catches or more, five time pro bowler, super bowl ring.
Edgerrin James- 12,000 yards, 91 total TD’s, Two time NFL leading rusher, 3 times he had 2,000 yards from scrimmage, 4 pro bowls 1 all pro.
LaDinian Tomlinson- 11,700 ryards, 126 rushing TD’s second all time, lead the league in rushing yards twice, 500 catches, 100 catch season, 3 time nfl rushing TD’s leader. most points scored in a season, 5 100 point seasons in a row. NFL MVP. Lock!
Fred Taylor- 11,000 yards, 70 total TD’s, 7 1,000 rushing yard seasons. only 1 pro bowl. it would be tough for him to get in because he is low on pro bowls, yards and TD’s.
Corey Dillon- 11,000 yards, 89 total TD’s, 3 200 rushing yard games. 4 pro bowls. 1 super bowl ring.
Warrick Dunn- 10,900 yards, only 64 total TD’s, 510 catches, 15,000 total yards. 3 pro bowls. he is low on rushing and total TD’s.
Am thinking Gino Cappelletti is being compared to George Blanda (above average QB, very good K, very long 26 year career). Cap has only an 11 year career, which is very short for someone whose primary argument is as a kicker — no question his WR numbers pale compared to guys like Lionel Taylor. Certainly Hall of the Very Good, but am hard pressed to see a HoF argument.
What do you people think about these players?
Vinny Testaverde- 46,233 yards 6 all time, 275 TD’s 8 all time, 3,787 completions 7 all time, 6,701 attempts 7 all time. 2 time pro bowler Most consecutive seasons with a TD pass (21). He threw a touchdown pass to 70 different players, NFL record.
Drew Bledsoe- 44,611 yards, 3,839 completions, 6,717 attempts, 252 TD’s. 1 ring. He holds the record for most pass attempts in a season.
Randall Cunningham- 29,979 yards, 2,429 completions, 4,289 attempts, 204 TD’s. 4,928 rushing yards (NFL Record by a QB), 775 attempts ( NFL record by a QB), 6.4 rushing avg. (3rd best all time). NFL MVP, 91 yard punt, 80 yard punt. Lead the NFL in passer rating in 1998.
Am thinking Testaverde, Bledsoe, and Cunningham are varying degrees of Hall of the Very Good. It’s possible any one of these might sneak in some off year, but I have solid doubts.
Bachlunch, whats your opinion on these:
Curtis Martin- 14,101 rushing yards, 90 rushing TD’s, 100 total TD’s, 10 consective seasons with 1,000 rushing yards to start a career. Led the league in rushing. Five 10 TD seasons. 484 catches. five time pro bowler, 1 time all pro. 2 passing TD’s. offensive rookie of the year. rarely fumbled.
Jamal Lewis- 10,107 rushing yards,58 rushing TD’s, 2000 rushing yard season. 1 ring. NFL MVP. 295 rushing yards in a game, second all time.
Kevin Mawae- 7 time pro bowler, 2 time all pro. 177 consective games started. He is still playing.
Jeff Feagles- 68,607 punting yards (NFL record), 1,649 Punts (NFL record), 508 punts inside the 20 yard line (NFL record), most consective games played 336 ( NFL record). 1 ring. Negatives: 12 blocked punts, ray guy only was blocked 3 times. he only pro bowled twice, whereas ray guy, who should be in already in the HOF, has pro bowled 7 times and plus ray guy has 3 rings.
Morten Anderson- Most points scored ever. mosr field goals made and attempted. second most extra points made and fourth most attempeted. perfect field goal percentage for a season. 7 time pro bowler, 3 time all pro.
Gary Anderson- second most points scored. second most field goals made and attempted. thrid most extra points made. 4 time pro bowler, 1 time all pro.
John Carney- 4th most points scored. 11 100 point seasons. only missed 8 extra points out of 575 attempted. 2 time pro bowler.
Adam Vinatieri- 15th most points scored. 13 consective seasons with 100 points. 2 super bowl winning field goals. most post season field goals made. most points scored in the post season. 4 super bowl rings. most field goals made in a super bowl lifetime, most field goals made in a single game in the post season, most points made in a post season.
I screwed up on morten and gay andersons stats my bad. gary anderson had the perfect percentage season and also he had the fourth most extra points attempted.
Anyone can comment, but i want Bachlunch to commnet to.
Of the players mentioned above. Jeff Feagles and Jamaal Lewis will have the hardest times. Feagles, because no punter has broken the ice. Ray Guy and Tommy Davis need to get in first. Then Feagles and Reggie Roby will have a chance. Jammal Lewis needs one more 1500yd 12TD season. John Carney will probably have a hard time too. He will have to hope the Hall is more receptive to kickers. But what a resurgence! Mawae will get in, and i think he still has 4 or 5 pro bowl caliber years left. The two Andersons and Vinatieri will get in whenever there is a down year 10-15 years from now. Marin is a lock in his second or third year.
what about these players:
Brian Mitchell: 14,014 kick return yards (NFL record), 4,999 punt return yards (NFL record), 1,967 rushing yards, 2,336 receiving yards, 9 punt return TD’s (2nd most all time), 4 kick return TD’s, 12 rushing TD’s, 4 receiving TD’s. 23,316 total yards (2nd all time), most kick returns all time, most punt returns all time, 19,013 kick and punt return yards (NFL record). Led the NFL in total yard 4 times. 4 2,000 total yard seasons. 3 500 punt return yard seasons. 1 pro bowl and 1 all pro.
Dante Hall: 10,136 kick return yards, 2,261 punt return yards, 1,747 receiving yards, 242 rushing yards, 6 kick return TD’s (NFL record), 6 punt return TD’s, 9 receiving TD’s. 14,386 total yards, 4 2,000 total yard seasons, Led the NFL in total yards 2 times. 2 time pro bowler, 1 all pro.
He is still playing and playing for a team who gets scored against a lot, so he will get lots of kick returns. He is 30 years old, Brian Mitchell was 35 when he stopped playing.
My guesses:
Curtis Martin: yes.
Jamal Lewis: too early to tell. Same with Clinton Portis right now.
Kevin Mawae: will have the best chance of any center active after Dermontti Dawson, especially if he’s named AP 1st team all pro this year (a distinct possibility). But even that might not prove to be enough if Dawson doesn’t make it for some reason. He has a better chance than his competition (Tom Nalen, Olin Kreutz, Matt Birk, or Jeff Saturday) at present.
Jeff Feagles: no, especially not if Ray Guy doesn’t get elected, and as it looks now, he’s unlikely.
Morten Andersen: best chance of any K after Jan Stenerud. Might not be enough, however — hard to say.
Gary Anderson: best chance for a K after Morton Andersen. Again, hard to say, but chances improve if M.A. gets elected.
John Carney: no chance unless he ends up at the top in counting stats for his period, and even then maybe not.
Adam Vinateri: too early to tell. Yes only if he ends up at the top of the heap in counting stats for his period.
Brian Mitchell: no. Voters don’t seem positively disposed towards KRs if that’s their only argument.
Dante Hall: no. See Brian Mitchell.
Also these:
Joe Klecko: 70 plus sacks (unoffical), 4 time pro bowler, 2 time all pro. Only player to pro bowl in three different positions.
Mark Gastineau: 74 sacks (107.5 unoffical), 5 time pro bowler, 3 time all pro, led the league twice in sacks, 22 sack season, 19 sack season, 2 20 sack seasons (1 season is unoffical), NFL record 4 sacks in a pro bowl game, Pro Bowl MVP, Defensive player of the year, 2 TD’s on fumble recoveries.
Devin Hester: 2,141 kick return yards, 1,449 punt return yards, 964 receiving yards, 51 rushing yards. Most kick and punt return TD’s in a season which he did twice (6 returns), 2 600 yard punt return seasons, 71 catches, 13 rush attempts, 7 punt return TD’s, 4 kick return TD’s, 5 receiving TD’s. He also returned the opening kick return in a Super Bowl. I no it is stil too ealry in his career, but so far i think if he gets 5 seasons with 60 catches with 600 receiving yards and 4 more TD returns (kick,punt,or missed field goal), and 2 more pro bowls, than i would consider him.
Thoughts:
1. Joe Klecko: unlikely but possible. His postseason honors stats are low, but he’s apparently got support from some electors (Dr. Z was vocally in his corner, for one). At this point, he’d certainly look no worse than Fred Dean, who is in. His biggest problem may be reaching finalist stage, and several other contemporary d-linemen form a logjam with him (Fred Smerlas, Too Tall Jones, Mark Gastineau).
2. Mark Gastineau: see Joe Klecko above. Admitted steroid use may hurt his chances further. His postseason honors are at the top of the above DL logjam at 3/5.
3. Devin Hester: no. Same problem as all the other pure KRs unless he turns into a big time WR down the road.
also these:
Mo Lewis: 1,233 tackles, 52.5 sacks, 14 Int’s, 5 total TD’s. 3 time pro bowler, 1 time all pro.
Clay Matthews: 1,595 tackles, 69.5 sacks, 16 Int’s, 2 total TD’s. 4 time pro bowler. 278 games played (14th all time), 248 games started (9th all time). Most games played as a linebacker.
John Abraham: 368 tackles, 84 sacks, 31 forced fumbles, 5 10 sack seasons. 3 time pro bowler, 1 all pro. He is still active and had a pro bowl type season. He still has a few great seasons in him. He needs to stay healthy.
Jessie Tuggle: 1,804 tackles, 21 sacks, 6 Int’s, 6 total TD’s. 5 fumble recovery TD’s (NFL record). 2 200 tackle seasons, 5 180 tackle seasons. 5 time pro bowler.
Ty Law: 834 tackles, 52 Ints, 5 sacks. 7 Int TD’s (7 all time). Led the NFL in Int’s 2 times. 5 time pro bowler, 2 time all pro. 3 super bowl rings. Intercepted Kurt Warner for a TD in the super bowl. Intercepted Peyton Manning 5 times in the playoffs (Most postseason Int’s ever recorded by one player against another). He is still playing. He is a free agent after the season.
Eric Allen: 791 tackles, 54 Ints, 3 sacks, 8 Int TD’s (5 all time). 9 total TD’s. 4 Int TD’s in a season (NFL record) and 3 In TD’s in a season. 6 time pro bowler, 1 all pro.
Eugene Robinson: 1,413 tackles, 57 Ints (10th all time), 7.5 sacks, 15 forced fumbles, 3 total TD’s. Led the NFL in Int’s. 5 100 tackle seasons. 1 ring. played 250 games.
Eric Metcalf: 541 catches, 5,572 receiving yards, 630 rushing attempts, 2,392 rushing yards, 5,813 kick return yards (13th all time), 3,453 punt return yards (4th all time), 17,230 total yards (12th all time). 31 receiving TD’s, 13 rushing TD’s, 10 punt return TD’s (NFL record), 2 kick return TD’s. Led the NFL in total yards. 1 100 catch season, 1 1,000 receiving yard season, 3 1,000 kick return yard seasons, 4 400 punt return yard seasons. 3 punt return TD’s a season and 2 punt return TD’s in two seasons. 3 time pro bowler and 2 time all pro.
Brad, I’d say pretty much a no on all you’ve listed since my last reply. Best chance may be for Ty Law, but I’m not so sure even in his case.
Tony, do you think Adam Vinatieri could be a first ballot HOF if he becomes the all time point leader? If he gets that, he his resume would be over 2,000 points, 4 super bowl rings, 2 game winning field goals in the super bowl, 13 plus 100 point seasons. I think he could be a consideration.
If Vinatieri became points leader? Yeah, I could see him being a first ballot guy, depending on the rest of the class that year. But he’s going to have a long ways to go to get the points title–he kicks too many extra points.
True. But I think it is a reality, especially if he gets another ring.
Here are many players who are borderline on getting in the HOF:
QB: Steve McNair, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe,Kerry Collins,Drew Brees.
RB: Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Clinton Portis.
WR: Isaac Bruce, Terrell Owens, Torry Holt,Randy Moss, Hines Ward, Derrick Mason.
TE: Antonio Gates, Jason Witten, Jeremy Shockey.
OL: Kevin Mawae, Steve Hutchinson, Alan Faneca.
DL: Jason Taylor, Kevin Carter, John Abraham, La’Roi Glover.
LB: Brian Urlacher, Zach Thomas, Derrick Brooks, Jesse Tuggle, Hardy Nickerson.
DB: Ty Law, Champ Bailey, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, Roy Williams, Charles Woodson, Brian Dawkins, John Lynch.
Kickers: Morten Anderson, Gary Anderson, John Carney, Adam Vinatieri, Jason Elam, John Hanson.
Punters: Jeff Feagles, Ray Guy, Reggie Roby, Shane Lechler.
As well saw on last year’s ballot, Brian Mitchell was on the list. He is I think the first pure kick returner/punt returner on the ballot. Do you think he will make it again this year? Do you think the players below deserve to make the ballot someday:
Dante Hall
Devin Hester (if he continues to play like he is playing)
Allen Rossum
I think Dante Hall and Devin Hester are the best out of the 3. Dante needs to have like 2/3 years with 900 kick return yards in each year and like 250 yards of punt return in each season. Than he could make the ballot.
Devin Hester is a mystery to me. The first 2 seasons of his career were amazing. He had 12 special team TD’s. He was 2/2 (2 Pro Bowls/2 All Pros). And he did a little receiving in 2007. And I almost forgot, he returned the opening kick return in the Super Bowl for a TD. In those first 2 seasons, he was putting up HOF numbers to be honest. Now, in 2008, his kick and punt return production went down. But, his receiving
went up. His farthest kick return was 51 yards. His farthest punt return was 25 yards. Danieal Manning took over kick returning duties. Will Devin Hester continue being a WR/KR? Or will he just focus on WR?
Here is a list of players who could have been HOFer if they didn’t get hurt or quit early:
QB: Randall Cunningham ( he only had 3 seasons where started all 16 games)
RB: Billy Sims
RB: Joe Morris
RB: Priest Holmes (He started getting hurt towards the end of his career)
RB: George Rogers
RB: Rodney Hampton
RB: Larry Brown
RB; Cookie Gilchrist (if he didn’t play in the CFl, he would have been in the HOF already)
WR: Sterling Sharper
DE: Mark Gastineau
LB: Peter Boulware
DB: Kenny Easley
DB: Erik McMillan
Brad, good list of “what might have been” players. I’d add some others, all with varying degrees of HoF possibility if they had played a full career. Not all had their careers shortened because of death or injury, but many did here:
T: Al Blozis
OG: Dick Stanfel
OT: Korey Stringer
OT: Tony Boselli
QB: Greg Cook
WR: Mac Speedie
TE: Todd Christensen
TE: Ron Kramer
TE: Mark Bavaro
RB: Bo Jackson
RB: Willie Galimore
RB: Terrell Davis
RB: Joe Delaney
RB: Mack Lee Hill
RB: Robert Edwards
DB: Sean Taylor
Bachslunch nice additions. Terrell Davis had a short career, but he could make the HOF someday. Tony Boselli had a short career, but when he was playing, he was great. Todd Christensen in my opinion should be in the HOF? Looking at Dick Stanfel stats, he looks good. He was a 5/5. The rest could have been on the ballot at least. Bo Jackson was 1 in a 1,000,000.
Here is other players to add to the list:
T: Marvin Powell ( He didn’t get hurt or anything, he could of played a little longer)
QB/RB/DB/P/KR: Spec Sanders
DB: Dainard Paulson
DB: Otto Schnellbacher
DB: Don Doll (He should be in the HOF)
WR/K/DB: Gino Cappelletti (If he played longer as a kicker, he could have made the HOF)
DB: Milt Davis
RB: Whizzer White
QB: Joe Theismann
DE: Dennis Byrd
What amazes me is that there is only 1 pure kicker in the HOF. And the only player in, played in the 1960’s/1970’s. His stats compared to today’s kickers are not the same. Jan was 2nd all time in scoring to George Blanda. Today, 8 players have passed his point mark. I don’t know if there will ever be another kicker in the HOF.
I was looking at this years ballot and I noticed that there were players, who should be on the list, weren’t. Here is the players who should be have been on the list:
QB: Randall Cunningham
WR: Drew Pearson
OT: Richmond Webb
I think Aaron Glenn should be on the HOF ballot when he is eligible. He didn’t put up flashy numbers, but he covered WR’s so well, because I’m a jets fan, I have watched for 8 years. He was also a great KR. And he also returned a missed field goal for 104 yards, which at the time was the longest play in NFL history.
I’m my opinion, there will not be that many WR’s in the HOF today. Here is a list of active players who are lock WR’s for the HOF:
Terrell Owens: Let’s face it. We hate his attitude, but his stats are too good not to be in the HOF.
Randy Moss: His attitude in NE is better than his attitude in Minnesota or Oakland. He puts up stats that are ridiculous.
Marvin Harrison: Top 10 greatest WR’s in the past 50 years, no question. Here is a great stat: in 4 seasons in a row (1999-2002), he had 469 catches for 6,322 receiving yards, and 52 receiving TD’s.
Those in my opinion are locks for the HOF. Now here is a list of players that are active, who will have a hard time making the HOF.
Isaac Bruce (I think he can make it, but will be tough because Andre Reed has almost the same stats as he does)
Torry Holt
Muhsin Muhammad
Hines Ward
Derrick Mason
Chad Johnson
Reggie Wayne (He is still young)
Joey Galloway
Out of the list above, taking out Reggie Wayne, I think 3 WR’s could make the HOF someday. The players are Isaac Bruce, Hines Ward, and Derrick Mason.
Isaac Bruce is a 0/4, which is going to hurt him. He should be a 1/5 because he had 119 receptions for 1,781 yards in 1995. He has 1,000 receptions, which is a plus. He has a SB ring. He has 91 receiving TD’s.
Hines Ward: He is a 0/4, which is not good for a HOF WR. He does have 2 SB rings and a SB MVP, which in fact could put him in the HOF. He needs at least 900 receptions and 10,500 receiving yards to be in contention.
Derrick Mason: He is a 0/2. That is very low. I will give him credit for having the most all purpose yards all time in a season, (2,690 yards). He does have 10,000 receiving yards, but he only has 52 receiving TD’s, 55 total TD’s.
RB’s who can make some noise in the HOF:
Priest Holmes: He is a 3/3. He has 94 total TD’s. He has 3 seasons with at least 60 receptions. 3 straight seasons with at least 2,000 yards from scrimmage. He led the NFL in rushing yards in 2001. He led the NFL 2 times in total TD’s. 2 times in rushing TD’s. 2 times in yards from scrimmage. He has a ring as a member of the Ravens.
Priest Holmes, to some people, shouldn’t make the HOF. I think he can make it someday. He had 76 total TD’s from 2001-2004. He avg. 4.6 yards per carry.
Shaun Alexander probably is the most overlooked RB today. He is a 1/3, (All Pros/Pro Bowl). He has 112 total TD’s. 2 seasons with at least 20 total TD’s. 2005 NFL MVP. He has 3 games with at least 4 total TD’s. 2 200 yard games.
Jamal Lewis is still young. He is a 1/1, which is very low. But, he does have 10,000 rushing yards. He has a 2,00 rushing yard season. He has a ring. He is 2003 NFL MVP. He is only 29 years old. I know that is still considered old for a RB, but he is not slow down. He can probably play another 3 seasons no problem. if he can finish his career with 12,000 rushing yards, than it is a possibility.
This might surprise some of you, but Charlie Garner could have been in contention for the HOF if he didn’t spend his first 5 seasons as a back-up RB.
Look at his stats from 1999-2002. He had 6,873 yards from scrimmage. 287 receptions. In 2002, he had 962 rushing yards and 941 receiving yards. If he played his entire career as a starting RB, He would have had at least 10,000 rushing yards and 5,000 receiving yards, 500 receptions, and 2/5 (All Pros/Pro Bowls).
What is you feeling about Orlando Pace?
I think Pace is one of the top two or three tackles of the 00s and I think he’s a sure hall of famer someday.
If Pace makes the HOF, so will these players as lineman:
Will Shields
Kevin Mawae
Willie Roaf
Larry Allen
Allen Fancea
Ruben Brown is a maybe IMO.
Orlando Pace might or might not make the HoF. He’ll be going up against Jonathan Ogden, William Roaf, and Walter Jones. Ogden and Roaf are probably the most likely to be elected, with Jones and Pace the next level of player. But it’s not at all unheard of for 4 OTs from a decade to make the HoF.
For OGs, Larry Allen’s a HoF lock, Will Shields, Alan Faneca, and Steve Hutchinson are the next level down and varying degrees of likely to get in, and Ruben Brown’s probably a no.
Kevin Mawae has easily the best chance of any center to get elected to the HoF. It’s hard to see any of his contemporaries getting in at this point.
bachslunch, good points. Im a Jets fan. And, as you know, Mawae is known as a Jet. But, Dawson, former Pittsburgh Center, is a 6/7, whereas Mawae is a 3/7. So, im just a little worried about mawae making the HOF. Now, IF, Mawae plays like, lets say 2 seasons, and plays a total of like 30 games, and PB’s 1 time, than he will make the HOF no sweat.
This is random, but here it goes: Jake Delhomme just signed a contract extension and it is through the 2014 season. I did some calculations:
If he plays every game through 2014, than he would have played 96 games in that time. I subtracted 6 games because I think he will get hurt here and there. And if he actually plays through 2014, his numbers will look something like this:
Passing Yards: 36,432 passing yards
Passing TD’s: 235 passing TD’s
Passing Int’s: 155 Int’s
Rushing yards: 552 yards
rushing TD’s: 14 TD’s
I’m just putting it out there.
Here are some other HOF worthy players:
Kerry Collins
Tiki Barber
Ronde Barber
Simeon Rice
Jason Taylor
Tony Gonzalez just got traded to the Falcons. And after he retires, who will be the next great TE. As in, who will make the HOF after him. And here is a list of player, in my order, who will make the HOF. Note: These are active players:
1. Antonio Gates
2. Jason Witten
3. Jeremy Shockey
4. Alge Crumpler
5. Chris Cooley
Collins – No
Tiki – Maybe, probably not
Ronde – Probably
Rice – No
Taylor – Probably
Gates – If he keeps it up
Witten – Same as Gates
Shockey – Doubtful, unless the light comes on
Crumpler – Doubtful
Cooley – I think he’s got a long way to go, but I think it’s more possible than Shockey or Crumpler.
Here are players who we forgot for the Senior nominee:
Pat Harder FB: 1946-1953. He was a 2 time Pro Bowler. He was on 7 All Pro teams. He led the NFL in points 3 consecutive seasons. He was a 3 time NFL Champion (Cards 1947, Lions 1952,Lions 1953). He also was a kicker.
Jim Benton E: 1938-1947: 1 time Pro Bowler, 2 time All Pro. 45 receiving TD’s. He was the second player ever to record 1,00 receiving yards in a season. He was a 2 time NFL Champion (1943 Bears and 145 Rams).
Bucko Kilroy RG: 1943-1955: 3 time Pro Bowler. He was on 7 All Pro teams. he was a 2 time NFL Champion (Eagles 1948 and 1949).
Len Younce G: 6 All Pro teams.
Tony, I agree with all of your comments and not because we share names. :)
The HOF is so tough to attain and once you get past the All-Decade players and the standout players who were in the limelight on multiple Super Bowl winning teams it becomes a political crapshoot IMO
TO is painfully a HOFer.
Randy Moss is a shoe in for me. He was so good on the field in Minnesota and sealed the deal in New England. He’s grown up a lot and I really like the guy now. He’s Mr. Nascar!! Lol!!
QB Kurt Warner – I don’t have a clue on the HOF but I want 2-time SB winner Jim Plunkett to make it if Kurt does.
I can’t see Jake Delhomme making it to 2014 or the HOF. He’s just a slightly above average QB that had one great SB game. I was shocked the Panthers offered him that kind of extension after he really sucked in his last few games. I guess their sold on his leadership.
As you know Tiki Barber is a polarizing NY sports figure who will have vocal support both ways. IMO he comes up just short but if I had to bet I’d say the media will put him in because of his standing after his career. Maybe 5 years after his eligibility.
We discussed all of the RB’s a couple months ago. Alexander is a no, Priest Holmes is a no (fine career and I love my Longhorns), Jamal Lewis is a maybe, Torry Holt is a maybe, Derrick Mason is a no way, Chad Johnson is a no way (career sinking fast), Joey Galloway is a no way, Muhsin Muhammad is a no way. Most of these players are good above average pros that at some point showed flashes of greatness and HOF potential but came up short IMO.
The stats that got players into the HOF before are not as black and white. It’s a different game. RB’s catch more passes, WR’s catch more passes which opens up the game more. Players are far better training year round. There’s just more gray because it’s less about stats. A lot of emphasis is put on being on a winning team. Hines Ward will be in the HOF. So it’s about stats, was the guy a winner, did he make his teammates better, and to some degree does the guy have a good reputation.
Any thoughts on Jimmy Smith and the HOF? He was Fantasy Football gold for a long time. Dallas blew that personal decision. He only had a hernia operation.
I agree that T.O. is a HOF, but its painful to put his name next to Jerry Rice for the 49ers. I also agree that Rand Moss is a HOF. And first ballot is in the cards. Kurt Warner, to me, is in the HOF. I don’t think he will be a first ballot. But, he has 2 rings, a SB MVP, 2 MVP’s and is 2nd all time in Comp. percentage. If he plays at least an avg. this season, stats like this: 3,400 passing yards, 22 TD’s. Than he is a first ballot in my opinion. I agree, Jake Delhomme is not a HOFer. I was just calculating his stats if he actually played that long. And Tiki, to me, is a borderline player. If he stayed with the Giants and won a SB, than he could have made it. His receiving stats will get him in Canton. Shaun Alexander was a great player, but didn’t play enough seasons. And Priest Holmes, was great as well, but got hurt. So, no HOF for him. Derrick Mason is a player who I think is a great player. He is an EXCELLENT RETURNER! And he receiving is just as good. But, his lack of receiving TD’s and PB and AP, will keep him out of the HOF. Joey Galloway is a no. Muhsin Muhammad is a no. And Jimmy Smith is a tough one. He was so consistent. But, his lack of receiving TD’s is going to hurt him.
Give me your thoughts on these players:
QB: Donovan McNabb
RB: Edgerrin James
RB: Clinton Portis
WR: Issac Bruce
And also, if Jimmy Smith makes the HOF, than Hines Ward makes it too.
I can see all of these guys making it to the HOF. Or just two in McNabb and Bruce.
QB: Donovan McNabb- yes but I’m not a fan.
RB: Edgerrin James – to me he’s a still a Tiki and a close no. He was helped by having one of the top QB’s of our generation. If he can pad his stats with 1 or 2 more 1,000 yd seasons he’d be hard to deny. It just seems like by the time he really got to the edge (no pun) of greatness with the Colts he left them without really recapturing his excellent play.
RB: Clinton Portis – here’s a guy who left his team and was able to sign a big contract and recaptured his excellent play. He a shaky yes now but I’d like to see a few more good years. And maybe his team in the playoffs.
WR: Issac Bruce – I’ve reconsidered and he’s a big yes. Greatest show on turf!!
For me, D-Mabb is a no. But, he has to play very well the next couple years to get my vote. Edgerrin can make it. He lead the NFL in rushing yards his first 2 seasons in the NFL. Portis will be tough. Only a 2 time PBer. Bruce will be tough. He only PB 4 times. I know he has 1,000 receptions. And to me 1,000 catches= HOF! But, he is lacking AP’s.
Am looking at Brad’s Senior possibilities lists, and am thinking they’re at the next level down. Not sure where the all-pro team numbers cited come from, but we’ve usually looked at AP teams as most prestigious. Here’s what I can see at the Pro Football Reference website:
Len Younce (G-LB): No Pro Bowl squads. Short career, only 6 years total, half of that during WW2. AP 1st team all-pro once (1944), was also named to 1st teams for UPI, International News Service (INS), NY Daily News (NYDN), and Pro Football Illustrated (PFI) that year. Also made INS 1st team in 1943, NYDN 1st team in 1946, UPI 1st team in 1947, and Chicago Herald American (CHA) 1st team in 1948.
Bucko Kilroy (G-MG-T-DT): 3 Pro Bowl squads (1952, 1953, 1954). Long career a plus — 12 seasons, plus one game in 1955. No AP all-pro 1st team selections, but did make NYDN 1st team in 1949 and 1950, as well as UPI 1st team in 1954.
Jim Benton (E): 1 Pro Bowl squad (1939). Decent sized career at 9 years, though about half of that was during WW2. AP 1st team all pro selection 2 times (1945, 1946). Also made CHA, NYDN, and PFI 1st teams in 1945 and CHA, UPI, PFI, and NYDN 1st teams in 1946.
Pat Harder (FB-LB): 2 Pro Bowl squads (1950, 1952). OK sized career at 8 years. No AP all-pro 1st team selections. Made PFI, NYDN, and UPI 1st teams in 1947, CHA, UPI, PFI, and NYDN 1st teams in 1948, NYDN and UPI 1st teams in 1949.
It’s hard to see these guys breaking through to the top of the HoF list, I’m guessing.
Bachslunch, what I meant to say is, all of them were on 2nd team AP.
Anyone else have an opinion on DNabb? Like him or not he’s a winner in one of the toughest cities which is also predominately the toughest Division in the NFC. I’m trying to think of a QB that lead his team to more Conference Championships. Would doubters change their mind if his Eagles win the SB this year?
If d-Nabb wins a SB, than yes, I will put him in the HOF. But nowhere near first ballot.
Here is a list of players who really don’t get talked about for the HOF, but should get credit. I want your opinons on it:
RB: Edgerrin James
RB: Corey Dillon
RB: Fred Taylor
RB: Eddie George
WR: Hines Ward
WR: Issac Bruce
WR: Torry Holt
WR: Jimmy Smith
WR: Andre Reed
WR: Keyshawn Johnson
T: Richmond Webb
T: Walter Jones
T: Jonathan Ogden
T: Orlando Pace
T: Willie Roaf
T: Chris Samuels
G: Alan Faneca
G: Ruben Brown
G: Steve Wisniewski
C: Matt Birk
C: Olin Kreutz
C: Kevin Mawae
C: Tom Nalen
DE: Jason Taylor
DE: Chris Doleman
DE: Richard Dent
DT: Warren Sapp
DT: La’Roi Glover
DT: John Randle
DT: Bryant Young
LB: Brian Urlacher
LB: Zach Thomas
DB: Ty Law
DB: Eric Allen
DB: Aeneas Williams
K: Adam Vinatieri
K: Morten Anderson
K: Gary Anderson
P: Ray Guy
P: Jeff Feagles
Long list from Brad. I’ll answer both as to
-whether I think they’ll get in (yes/no/maybe)
-whether I think they should get in (yes/no/maybe)
The “maybe” folks are either on the border or still incomplete in final info.
RB: Edgerrin James (no/maybe)
RB: Corey Dillon (no/no)
RB: Fred Taylor (no/no)
RB: Eddie George (no/no)
WR: Hines Ward (no/maybe)
WR: Issac Bruce (no/yes)
WR: Torry Holt (no/no)
WR: Jimmy Smith (no/no)
WR: Andre Reed (maybe/yes)
WR: Keyshawn Johnson (no/no)
T: Richmond Webb (no/no)
T: Walter Jones (maybe/yes)
T: Jonathan Ogden (yes/yes)
T: Orlando Pace (maybe/yes)
T: Willie Roaf (yes/yes)
T: Chris Samuels (no/no)
G: Alan Faneca (maybe/yes)
G: Ruben Brown (no/no)
G: Steve Wisniewski (no/maybe)
C: Matt Birk (no/no)
C: Olin Kreutz (no/no)
C: Kevin Mawae (maybe/yes)
C: Tom Nalen (no/no)
DE: Jason Taylor (maybe/yes)
DE: Chris Doleman (maybe/yes)
DE: Richard Dent (maybe/no)
DT: Warren Sapp (yes/yes)
DT: La’Roi Glover (no/no)
DT: John Randle (yes/yes)
DT: Bryant Young (maybe/no)
LB: Brian Urlacher (yes/yes)
LB: Zach Thomas (maybe/yes)
DB: Ty Law (no/no)
DB: Eric Allen (no/no)
DB: Aeneas Williams (yes/yes)
K: Adam Vinatieri (maybe/maybe)
K: Morten Anderson (maybe/yes)
K: Gary Anderson (maybe/yes)
P: Ray Guy (no/maybe)
P: Jeff Feagles (no/no)
And I’m thinking a “no” for Donovan McNabb on both.
Thanks bachslunch. Sorry the list was too long. I agree with you on the most part. I have Issac Bruce at a maybe/yes. I have Brain Urlacher at a Maybe/Maybe. I have Zach Thomas at a yes/yes. and Adam Vinatieri at a yes/yes.
Here are the reasons why Zach Thomas will make the HOF in my opinion:
He is still playing, so he will stack pile his stats
He is a 5/7, should be a 6/9 in my opinion (He should of PB and AP in his rookie year. And should have PB in 1998.)
He has 1,733 tackles (More than any other player in the HOF)
Brad, am personally thinking Zach Thomas (5/7) should make the HoF — and am thinking it’s reasonably likely the HoF voters will think so as well — but am not 100% sure, either. Consider that there are several LBs who will be seen as contemporaries, including Derrick Brooks (5/11), Junior Seau (6/12), Brian Urlacher (4/6 and still very active), and Ray Lewis (6/10). The HoF is not always so kind to LBs, either. Seau and Lewis, fairly or not, will likely be seen as the top crust here, with the other three sitting just below.
And I’d cite tackle stats with care, as it appears they’re usually seen as pretty much meaningless (especially by HoF voters) and it would appear rightly so. Note this article by HoF panelist Rich Gosselin, which I found to be a real eye-opener:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/080608dnspoinsidethenfl.141e71c8.html
Well, Ray Lewis Junior Seau, and Derrick Brooks are first ballot HOFers to me. Brian Urlacher is on a decline and he is a 4/6. Zach Thomas is a 5/7 and probably wont make any PB’s, but he is pile his stats. If he plays the next 2 years, than he will make it no doubt.
here is my first ballot active players. And will give you quick stats to back them up:
QB: Brett Farve: Do I really have to give you any stat?
QB: Peyton Manning: 4/9. 45,628 passing yards, 333 passing TD’s. 3 time NFL MVP. SB MVP.
QB: Tom Brady: 1/4. Maybe its too early, but you can’t argue it: 197 passing TD’s. 2 time TD champ. 2 time passing yard champ. 3, count em up, 3 SB rings. 2 SB MVP’s. NFL MVP. 50 passing TD’s in 2007 (NFL record).
RB: LaDainain Tomlinson: 3/5, should be 4/6 (2003). 2 time rushing yard champ. 3 time rushing TD champ. 2nd most rushing TD’s. 31 total TD’s in 2006 (NFL record). Most points in a season (186). NFL MVP 2006. Oh yeah and how is his receiving? Over 500 receptions. Caught 50+ passes in every year he played.
WR: Marvin Harrison: 3/8. Led the NFL in receptions 2 times. 4 straight 100+ reception seasons. 2nd most receptions. SB ring. 28th most total yards.
WR: Terrell Owens: 5/6. As much as it is painful to put him in, you can’t argue. 3 time receiving TD champ. 139 receiving TD’s 2nd all time.
TE: Tony Gonzalez: 5/10. 916 receptions, 10,940 receiving yards, 76 receiving TD’s. (NFL records for TE’s). And not to mention, he is on the Falcons, who have a pretty good QB in Matt Ryan!
G: Alan Faneca. 6/8. I couldn’t find any other O-Linemen. So he is the best from the active group.
Defense
LB: Ray Lewis: 6/10. SB MVP. Over 1,600 tackles. All he needs is 2 Int’s to become the 2nd player to reach the 30 Int 30 sack milestone.
LB: Junior Seau: 6/12. Over 1,800 tackles. Over 50 sacks.
LB: Derrick Brooks: 5/11. SB ring. Over 1,700 tackles. DPOY 2002.
DB: Ed Reed: 4/5. it maybe too early for him too, but like Tom Brady, its hard to argue it: led the NFL in Int’s 2 times. 3 blocked punt TD’s. 5 Int TD’s. 2 fumble recovery TD’s. And a punt return for a TD.
here is my list of “future” HOFers:
Offense
QB: Jay Cutler
QB: Eli Manning
RB: Adrian Peterson
T: Joe Thomas
C: Nick Mangold
T: Jordan Gross
Defense
DE: Mario Williams
LB: Patrick Willis
LB: DeMarcus Ware
Special Teams
KR/PR/WR: Devin Hester (Long Shot)
And to add to the list for “future” HOFers:
QB: Ben Roethlisberger
QB: Philip Rivers
First my opinions are based on the Player’s career as of this moment not predicting ahead.
I’ll give my opinion first yes or no and than what I think the Writers will ultimately pick in the future:
“Maybe” is my answer for what the Writers will do if I see them on the border.
RB: Edgerrin James (no/maybe)
RB: Corey Dillon (yes/maybe)
RB: Fred Taylor (no/maybe) depends if he finishes up career strong with NE & Super Bowl
RB: Eddie George (no/no)
WR: Hines Ward (yes/yes) a hard nosed winner. 90% and more of time WR’s block, so don’t forget that part of the game. HOFer Michael Irvin wasn’t afraid to mix it up.
WR: Issac Bruce (yes/yes) has the numbers and represents the “greatest show on turf” that went to back to back SB’s, should of been more.
WR: Torry Holt (no/no) great player
WR: Jimmy Smith (yes/no) Brunell to Smith was a great combo! Smith was Mr. Fantasy for years. There are more Smith’s to consider.
WR: Andre Reed (no/yes) I just didn’t appreciate his game. Not enough YAC for me.
WR: Keyshawn Johnson (no/no)
T: Richmond Webb (yes/maybe) Bruce Smith said he was one of the best he ever played against. Webb is on 90’s All-Decade Team with Tony Boselli. Has a chance if people remember how good he was.
T: Walter Jones (no/no)
T: Jonathan Ogden (yes/yes)
T: Orlando Pace (no/maybe)
T: Willie Roaf (yes/yes)
T: Chris Samuels (no/no)
G: Alan Faneca (yes/yes)
G: Ruben Brown (no/no)
G: Steve Wisniewski (no/no)
C: Matt Birk (no/no)
C: Olin Kreutz (no/no)
C: Kevin Mawae (yes/maybe) Mawae or Nalen??
C: Tom Nalen (yes/maybe) Nalen or Mawae??
DE: Jason Taylor (yes/maybe)
DE: Chris Doleman (no/no)
DE: Richard Dent (yes/maybe)
DT: Warren Sapp (yes/yes)
DT: La’Roi Glover (no/no)
DT: John Randle (yes/yes)
DT: Bryant Young (no/no)
LB: Brian Urlacher (no/maybe)
LB: Zach Thomas (no/no) Clay Mathews should be in HOF first.
DB: Ty Law (yes/maybe) depends if he makes the 00 All-Decade Team.
DB: Eric Allen (yes/no) Very good player who benefited from an awesome Eagles front four led by Reggie White. That said his total picks and tackles and remembering what a hitter he was makes me say yes. But all 4 players on 90’s All-Decade Team will make HOF so he’ll likely be squeezed out.Too bad.
DB: Aeneas Williams (yes/yes) 90’s All-Decade Team. Not a gaurentee but has credentials. Great on a sorry team for most of his career. Much like Corey Dillon IMO.
K: Adam Vinatieri (yes/yes) Mr. Clutch
K: Morten Anderson (yes/yes) Old Man River. What about Jason Elam? (yes,yes)
K: Gary Anderson (yes/maybe) His stats say yes. The only kick I remember is the kick he missed against the Falcons to go to the Super Bowl. Sorry Tony.
P: Ray Guy (no/maybe) You put him in the HOF than you should have a flood of punters who were as good or better. The Chiefs P – Jerrel Wilson should be put in before Guy.
P: Jeff Feagles (no/maybe)
QB: Ben Roethlisberger (yes/yes)
QB: Philip Rivers (no/no)
Tony, Zach Thomas, to me, deserves the HOF more than Clay Matthews. Here is why:
Zach Thomas
5/7
20.5 sacks, 17 Int’s, and 1,733 tackles in just 184 games
Clay Matthews
0/4
69.5 sacks, 16 Int’s, 1,595 tackles in 278 games.
Zach has more PB’s/AP’s. He was more tackles and Int’s. The only thing Clay has more is Sacks and game played.
Tony P, Do you agree with my active first ballot HOFers?
With Brady,Faneca,and Ed Reed. I know it’s too early, but if they cont. there career, than I think they will make it.
Ok, here me out. I think Ray Guy should be in the HOF as probably most of you do. Now, if he makes it this year, than this will open the door for these players:
Shane Lechler: No doubt. He is a 4/4. Should be at least a 4/5.
Reggie Roby: 2/3. He was a great punter.
Jerrel Wilson: I agree with you Tony! Jerrel was a 0/3, but really should have been a 4/6.
Jeff Feagles: 0/2. The only reason why I’m putting him on this list is b/c he has the most punts inside the 20.
Here is my list of players who I think should be in the HOF right now:
QB: Ken Stabler
QB: John Brodie
RB: Roger Craig
WR: Cris Carter
C: Mick Tingelhoff
G: Bob Kuechenberg
G: Jerry Kramer
T: Winston Hill
LB: Robert Brazile
LB: Larry Grantham
DB: Steve Atwater
P: Ray Guy
And also these players:
DB: Lemar Parrish
DB: Erich Barnes
DB: Jimmy Patton
DB: Johnny Robinson
I’m going to go position by position every day. Here are QB’s that will/could/maybe make the HOF. I will give you my answer. And I will if I say YES!, than he is a first ballot. If I say YEs, than he is a potential first Ballot. And if i say Yes, than he will make the HOF. If i say yes, than he might make the HOF. Now, if I say NO! than he will not make the HOF at all. If I say No, than he is probably not a HOFer, and if i say no, than he is borderline :
QB: Peyton Manning: YES!
QB: Tom Brady: YES!
QB: Brett Favre: YES!
QB: Kurt Warner: YEs
QB: Drew Brees: yes
QB: Drew Bledsoe: no
QB: Vinny Testaverde: no
QB: Rich Gannon: NO!!!!!!!!!!!
QB: Steve McNair: no
Kerry Collins: No
Donovan McNabb: yes
Comments from Tony P. – He accidentally sent them via email originally a little while back:
———-
Here is my list of players who I think should be in the HOF right now:
QB: Ken Stabler – NO – had 3 HOF caliber recievers and still threw a ton of picks.
QB: John Brodie – YES – hard to shine on a bad team in an era of great QB’s.
RB: Roger Craig – YES – One of the best RB’s to ever play in the West Coast Offense.
WR: Cris Carter – NO – Timmy Brown was better!!
C: Mick Tingelhoff – Yes
G: Bob Kuechenberg – YES – A key member for one of the best Offensive Lines in history! First line to block for two 1,000 yard runners in the same season.
G: Jerry Kramer – YES
T: Winston Hill – YES – Went to many PB’s. The Jets had a very good running game in the 60’s and 70’s. Namath wasn’t the only HOF player on their SB winning team.
LB: Robert Brazile YES – great Oiler LB for a long time. I bet the Steeler players would vote him into HOF.
LB: Larry Grantham – YES – Another great Jet that’s been overlooked.
DB: Steve Atwater – YES – All-Decade for 90’s. Poor man’s Ronnie Lott.
Did the job for Denver.
P: Ray Guy – YES
And also these players:
DB: Lemar Parrish -YES
DB: Erich Barnes – YES
DB: Jimmy Patton – NO
DB: Johnny Robinson – NO
More from Tony P.:
—————
QB: Peyton Manning: YES!
QB: Tom Brady: YES!
QB: Brett Favre: YES!
QB: Kurt Warner: NO
QB: Drew Brees: NO – stats wise his career is on track much like Bledsoe was but he needs to win some big games.
QB: Drew Bledsoe: NO
QB: Vinny Testaverde: NO
QB: Rich Gannon: NO
QB: Steve McNair: YES – He might be the only League MVP in history not be an All-Pro? He was a great leader who did whatever it took to lead his team to victory.
Kerry Collins: NO
Donovan McNabb: YES
Final one from Tony P.:
——————–
Brad,
I think Brady,Faneca,and Ed Reed are HOF players now.
Remember what Bachslunch says about tackle totals being very inconsistant. I believe it’s true. I noticed in your total tackles you counted assisted tackles which is OK but Mathews’s stats are missing 17 years of assisted tackles.. He easily could have been involved in over 2,000 tackles. Mathews was a great player on some very good Cleveland teams.
IMO as great a tackler as Zach was his achilles was pass coverage and I believe it hurt the team, especially in the big games. Mathews was a better athlete and really tough.
Tony P, I agree with you on most of your picks.
Tony P, BTW, Just to add, it wasn’t just Joe Willie. U forgot Don Manyard. No big deal.
And here is a list of HOF caliber players for the Jets/Titan in the 60’s-70’s:
WR: George Sauer
WR: Art Powell
DE: Mark Gastineau
DE/NT/DT: Joe Klecko
DT: John Elliott
I still think Kurt Warner is a HOFer. His stats are amazing!
Air McNair will probably be the most underrated QB in my time, as of right now.
Clay Matthews has played a lot more games than Zach Thomas. And also Zach is a 5/7. Clay is a 0/4.
And do you like my list of active first ballot HOFers?
The reason why I was flip floppy on Reed, Alan, and Brady is b/c they, as of this point, haven’t played that many seasons.
Hey Tony P, what’s your take on my Man, Curtis Martin?
I know he will make the HOF, but when?
Anyway, do you know any MLB and NBA blogs, like this one?
Here are the next first ballot active players:
QB: Kurt Warner
WR: Randy Moss
WR: Larry Fitzgerald
WR: Andre Johnson (Maybe)
TE: Antonio Gates
G: Steve Hutchinson
A couple of these players we discussed for our HOF Letter.
WR: George Sauer NO/NO – A Texas Alum saying the game was too violent?? Damn!!! HOF talent who didn’t play long enough.
WR: Art Powell – NO/NO
DE: Mark Gastineau – NO/NO
DE/NT/DT: Joe Klecko – NO/ YES – Brad you tell me. Who’s got the greater lasting popularity Gastineau or Klecko. I know Klecko was highly beloved by Jets fans when he retired and probably could see him being picked to the HOF one day. I’m not sure if his legal problems will hurt.
DT: John Elliott NO/NO – Texas alum which is a feather in his cap but his career was too short.
Curtis Martin? YES/YES – A Dynamite player who had all of the skills, character guy and a real workhorse. IMO not real flashy I’d put him in on his 1st try.
QB: Kurt Warner YES/NO
WR: Randy Moss YES/YES
WR: Larry Fitzgerald – HOF character and talent. Too soon to tell.
WR: Andre Johnson – HOF character and talent. Too soon to tell.
TE: Antonio Gates – Hmm. Not a lot of love for the TE by the voters throughout history-seems like about 2 TE’s a decade go to the HOF.
Here a list of the best TE’s through the years( 1970’s – on:
Raymond Chester, Riley Odoms, *Russ Francis* (a tough SOB- made the PB with 16 catches), Paul Coffman, Jimmie Giles, Mark Bavaro, Steve Jordan (Steve who???? Vikes 6-time Pro-Bowler), Mickey Shuler (that one’s for you Brad!!), Todd Christensen (5 great years catching the ball – took him a while to find his position), *Keith Jackson*, *Brent Jones* (Great 49er!), and Jay Novacek* (Great Cowboy!),
(* meaning a HOF caliber player IMO)
Assuming 90’s All-Decade Shannon Sharpe and 00’s All-Decade Gonzalez are locks for the HOF. That would leave 90’s All-Decade Ben Coates, Whitten, Gates and Shockey vying for two HOF spots. Coates was REALLY good IMO. I would lean towards Gates making it although it’s close and all depends on how the three afore mentioned finish out their careers. Shockey could finish strong with Brees throwing him the ball or injuries could finish him. Anyone have an opinion???
G: Steve Hutchinson YES/YES
Does anyone remember the great college RB Wendell Tyler?? Could he be a legit candidate for the HOF?? Character issues aside, his great college career and flashes of NFL greatness remind me a lot of Charles “The Great” White with crosstown rival USC. Well maybe not exactly by comparing stats but it was amazing how White brought himself out of the ashes to have one great year at the end. Just think what he could of been. He was tough like a pin ball bouncing off tacklers. I can’t think of another player at his size except maybe Walter Payton who White reminded me of or maybe A.D. with his physical toughness to bounce off defenders.
Tony P, nice list of TE’s. To answer your question on who’s more popular Klecko or Gastineau.I think Klecko is more liked today. I think if Mark played like 3-5 more seasons with at least 6 sacks in each of them, than he would be in the HOF. Same with Klecko.
I know of Mickey Shuler. He is on the Jets All time team. I’m 17, so I never seen him. To add to the list of TE’s: Rich Caster(WR also), Ben Coates, and Wesley Walls.
Do you think Michael Strahan could be a first Ballot HOFer?
Here is a list of players of the 60’s that are HOF caliber. Players with (*), Should be in the HOF:
QB: John Brodie*
RB/KR: Timmy Brown
RB: Jon Arnett
FB: Don Perkins
FB: Bill Brown
WR: Del Shofner
WR: Gary Collins
WR: Jimmy Orr
TE: Pete Retzlaff
E/K: Bobby Walston
T: Frank Varrichione
T: Winston Hill
T: Bob Vogel
T: Grady Alderman
T: Ernie McMillan
T: Dick Schafrath
T: George Kunz
C: Ray Wietecha
C: Mick Tingelhoff*
C: Len Hauss
G: Jim Ray Smith
G: Ken Gray
G: John Niland
G: Jerry Kramer*
G: Gale Gillingham
DE: Jim Katcavage
DE/K: Lou Michaels
DE: George Andrie
DE: Jim Marshall
DT: Alex Karras*
DT: Bob Gain
DT: Roger Brown
DT: Charlie Krueger
LB: Tommy Nobis
LB: Larry Grantham*
LB: Chuck Howley*
LB: Lee Roy Jordan
LB: Les Richter*
LB: Maxie Baughan*
LB: Joe Fortunato
LB: Chris Hanburger*
LB: Andy Russell*
LB: BIll Forester
DB: Erich Barnes
DB: Abe Woodson
DB: Cornell Green
Look at these players stats:
George Taliaferro
Spec Sanders
Glenn Dobbs
Would you agree with me if I said this: They would have made the HOF if they each played another 5 seasons ?
Yup, most of the players on your list were reviewed and if qualified their names sent to Canton, Ohio for the 2010 HOF Selection process. We have a great list of guys, some of which may of fallen through the cracks. It seems too soon to work on a new list which is begins reviewing process in March. I’m really anxiuos to see if any of our Senior Players that we really pushed for will get consideration. There were many great candidates. These would be my 2 favorite Senior players to make it to the HOF this year: any 3 Dolphins – Just Kidding!!!Lol!! Not!! OK, seriously : QB – John Brodie 1/2/60-70’s, and LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s
Joe Klecko’s sack total isn’t so important since he played the T position much of his career. He was an awesome run stuffer. I think he was the type of player who played very hard on every down. I bet his fellow competitors would agree. I’m not sure why he isn’t there yet. He was an All-Pro as a NT and RE so in my mind should qualify for the HOF.
Tony P, do you think these players have a shot at being on the list for next year?:
QB: Rich Gannon
RB: James Brooks
RB: Freeman McNeil
RB/KR: Brian Mitchell
FB: Larry Centers
WR: Wesley Walker
WR: Anthony Miller
WR: Mark Clayton
WR: Mark Duper
G: Nate Newton
C: Mark Stepnoski
DT: Chester McGlockton
LB: Mo Lewis
DB: Carnell Lake
Here is stats from a player:
2/8. 150.5 sacks, 975 tackles, 2 safeties, 8 Int’s, 44 FF.
He led the NFL in sacks in a year. 8 seasons with 10+ sacks.
1990’s All Decade Team
And i say he is not in the HOF. Can you guess what player I’m thinking of without looking him up?
Tell me if you think he will make the HOF. I think he should.
Brad – My first three guesses were wrong–I ended up having to look him up (won’t ruin it for anyone else). I always forget that he played that well for that long–and that’s from a guy who got to watch most of the first part of his career.
If you’d asked me without the stats, I would have said “Nice player, not a HOFer.” Same reaction I had for a teammate of his (who was my first guess of who you were referring to). Frankly, it appears as though both should be in.
Tony, thanks for not ruining it. I think his teammate has a better shot than the other guy.
His teammate is a 6/7, whereas The other guy is a 2/8. The teammate has a better AP/PB ratio.
Here’s the next player you should look up who is not in the HOF:
2/5 (should be at least a 2/7). 160 sacks, 733 tackles, 3 safeties, 5 Int’s, 23 FF.
He led the NFL in sacks 2 times.
1990’s All Decade Team.
That one’s too easy Brad–I got it on the first guess :).
But only because those numbers belong to a player that has been debated at least a couple times here before–dating back to the first post on the original HOF thread from 2008…
True. Do you think He is HOF caliber?
Wow. Those are monster numbers!! And you don’t think he’s a HOFer?!! It’s a DE with the tackles of a LB or a Safety. I thought Kevin Greene but I don’t he’s a 2/8. Plus I think most agrre he’s a HOF player and the sooner the better. I think Atwater is a 2/8 but I’m pretty sure he didn’t have 150 sacks. :). There’s only one player I’m against but I can’t recall his name now. I think he played for Tampa Bay and Minnesota. Was it Rice? That doesn’t sound right. I think I know but I don’t know!! :)
Bringing up questionable players – do youall think Buffalo’s LB Corneilus Bennett is a HOF guy?
You got the second guy–Greene. I wouldn’t have thought he was HOF caliber, before hearing the numbers. Tough to argue with after hearing them, though.
I think you’re on the right track with the first guy, but he didn’t play for Tampa Bay–only three guys I can think of that played for just those two teams (of any signifigance)–Randall McDaniel (in this year), Jeff Christy (not a HOFer, although admirable for the way he got off the field during the two minute drill with a broken ankle/leg), and Chris Hovan (not a HOFer).
Cornelius Bennett–one of my favorite players when I was younger, but I’d say probably not a HOFer. But that’s without looking at stats–same as Greene and Player #1…
Tony P, I will tell you who it is. Chris Doelman!
Is Corneilus Bennett a HOFer?
He is a 1/5. Not bad, and he was named to 6 AP Teams.
71.5 sacks and 1,190 tackles and 7 Int’s, 31 FF. Pretty good, but when you compare him to Kevin Greene, Bennett’s stats don’t match up IMO.
I don’t think he is a HOF IMO because he is lacking PB’s and only has 1 AP.
Here is a list of questionable HOFers on Defense:
DE: Jason Taylor 3/6
DE: Richard Dent 1/4
DT: Cortez Kennedy 3/8
LB: Joey Porter 1/4
LB: Rickey Jackson 0/6
LB: Pat Swilling 2/5
LB: Sam Mills 1/5
DB: Dennis Smith 0/6 (underrated)
Doleman is the guy I was thinking about who ended his career with the Vikes. He never played for a vey good team like most of the guys you’ve named as questionable. I loved D.Smith out of USC. Could hit like a mack truck. Him and Ronnie Lott where quite the tandem at USC on D and Marcus Allen on O. USC producing talent never changes!! I thought Smith was better in college than Lott. Smith and Elway of Denver had some great players when they went to those three SB’s so it’s hard to believe they always got beat so bad. I guess their D was always a step slow.
Just looking at those names of HOF prospects, they were all very good players but only Richard Dent, Rickey Jackson, and Jason Taylor stick out as having HOF talent. Mills reminds me of the Redskins LB who never gets his due but is a tackling machine. Everyone argues Kennedy wa so great but I just don’t see it because he played in realitive obscurity for a bad Seattle team. He only had more than 8 sacks one time in his career and his tackle total doesn’t appear to be staggering. I know he was a great run stuffer much like the great Jerry Ball or Michael Carter but does that get you in the HOF? To be honest, I don’t think the 1990’s were a very good decade for Defenses in the AFC. Talent was fairly thin which probably accounts for many of Kennedy’s PB’s. For example of the 8 DL players named to the 90’s All-Decade Team only 3 are from the AFC and I think that was being awful generous with no Cowboys!!
The Bill, Pats, and Broncos went to 7 Super Bowls representing the AFC and I can’t fill up the names of great Defensive players on my one hand from those three teams. Not like the Cowboys,Eagles 49ers, and Packers in the NFC.
Why is Chales Haley 2/5, 100.5 Sacks (big part of 5 Super Bowls winning teams) not in the HOF yet???
I agree with Charles Haley being in the HOF. Now, its not like Ray Guy, who only has 1 more year and only can be on via Senior Nominee. Charles retired in 1999. He has years. Could you go down the list, and tell if you think they will make the HOF.
Tony P, Do you remember Kyle Clifton? He never PBed or AP. He was 2nd team AP. Here is his stats. There really not that bad.
1,484 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 12 Int’s, 13 FF. He only missed 4 games.
Here is a list of players who should get some credit:
QB: Charley Johnson
RB: Abner Haynes
FB: Keith Lincoln
FB/RB: Jim Nance
WR: Gary Garrison
G: Ed White
G: Harley Sewell
T: Russ Washington
DE: Earl Faison
DE: Bob Dee
DT: Ernie Ladd
DT: Jim Hunt
NT: Bob Baumhower
LB: Frank Buncom
LB/K: Wayne H. Walker
DB: Jim David
Derrick Mason is retiring. Can you please make a Topic about Derrick Mason and the HOF? Thanks
No Way Jose on Mason to the HOF. :) Low aver yds at 12.7 and only 52 TDs. There was a time right before he took the money an ran (ala Edge James) that it looked promising but when players leave for another team they sometimes lose their luster. Edge may of recovered but no doubt if he was productive for the Colts SB team he’d be a HOF no brainer now.
Many other better small WR’s before him with fine careers. Small WR’s (under 6′) who NEED to be in the HOF are: Harold Jackson, Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch (3 SB’s), , Stanley Morgan, Henry Ellard, Mark Clayton, and Gary (smurf) Clark (2 SB’s).
There’s a “Close but No Cigar” list of great players who either just miss or get the shaft: Otis Taylor, Issac Curtis, Mel Gray, Billy “Whiteshoes” Johnson, Nat Moore, Wesley Walker, Anthony Carter (great in USFL & Vike), Tony Hill, Wes Chandler and probably a few more.
70’s WR’s who went to the HOF just makes me want to pull my hair out! Charlie Joiner a very nice guy and fine player with a marginal HOF career that was never the best WR on any of his teams? That was politics! Lynn Swann another nice guy who was grace under pressure but other WR’s had better careers including his teammate John Stallworth. Now that selection was pure politics!! It’s just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb!!! With younger Writers now, many deserving WR’s I mentioned won’t get their due. It’s so frustrating!! And now we have to watch players like Cris Carter and Andre Reed make it when I swear they weren’t the quality of these older players. Any everyone thinks they’re great because they catch a 1,000 short passes. It used to be the job of the WR to stretch the field. Now they use the pass like the running game. I didn’t mention Tim Brown because he could do something after the catch even though his team’s system with Gannon called for him to catch shorter passes while Porter and Jett caught the longer ones.
And Carter has the nerve to bitch because he might have to wait a couple years when guys of great quality have been getting the shaft for years. Carter will likely get in because of all those end zone catches (at 6’3″ da!) but on how many teams did he impact on a playoff run or how much did players feared him like a Warfield, Branch, Rice or Owens? Huh! Hell it seemed like he stepped out of bounds after every catch he ever made. He was slow and his 12.7 yds after the catch is really bad!! The 250th ranked person in NFL history is at 15.2. Where do you think 12.7 would rank? 400 or 500th best for a WR? Even the Eagles big 6’7″ goon was elusive enough to avg 15.2 and he wasn’t burning the deep routes. I’d pick Hines Ward over Carter. Heck I’d pick Rod Smith, Steve Smith and Jimmy Smith and probably a few more Smith’s as being better than Carter.:)
And Andre Reed actually did catch a zillon 5 yard passes. :) Big deal for a Pro WR. I’m tell you a lot of these guys with these inflated numbers are in for disappointment if judged fairly. The Voters like SB winning players. Carter and Reed might be waiting a while?
Kyle Clifton was a great NY Jet!
QB: Charley Johnson- Nice QB
RB: Abner Haynes -afl hof
FB: Keith Lincoln – afl hof
FB/RB: Jim Nance – afl hof. very good fb but better hof candidates out there.
WR: Gary Garrison – very good compliment to to hof lance (bambi) alworth. close but no cigar!
G: Ed White – great viking who was the best guard when he went to sd. renown for his strength. not better than Bob Kuechenberg imo.
G: Harley Sewell – don’t know him.
T: Russ Washington – i remember him but certianly not a household name. he was a big guy who reminded me of hofer rayfield wright.
DE: Earl Faison – afl hof.
DE: Bob Dee – don’t know him
DT: Ernie Ladd – huge man -one of those characters of the game.
DT: Jim Hunt – don’t know him
NT: Bob Baumhower – i’m bias. part of the killer b’s. a great dolphin. hof longshot. miami won for many years with players whose career’s just fall short of hof. doesn’t mean they weren’t great players
LB: Frank Buncom – don’t know him
LB/K: Wayne H. Walker – don’t know him.
DB: Jim David – must of been a nice player but doesn’t seem to equal hof.
we throw out lots of names for hof but before we go further maybe we should take a good look at what positions from what decades have been filled. i will analyze in the future. :)
PLEASE. MUST READ!
Ok, time to look at the HOF and numbers. Modern Day Players in the HOF starts with careers beginning approx. 1950 and I’ll be looking at totals by position. Actually, I’ll assume 50’s are tapped dry and begin
1960 thru to today :
QB= 13 (10 of 23 from 50’s)
RB= 13 (12 of 25 from 50’s)
WR= 12 (9 of 21 from 50’s)
TE= 7 (0 from 50’s)
G or G/T= 9 (5 of 14 from the 50’s)
T= 9 (4 of 13 from the 50’s)
C= 4 (3 of 7 from the 50’s)
Wow!!!!!!!! Can anyone tell me what this means?? I’ll tell you! Either a high majority of players whose careers began in the 1950’s were HOF caliber players (superior to the 60’s,70’s and 80’s) or the HOF was very liberal in the beginning or the most likely reason which is the HOF Voters are light years Fuc#$!@! behind!! This is pathetic!! I’ve heard others say they were behind but this is worse than I imagined.
Total Players on Offense selected (excluding TE position) to the HOF for player’s careers beginning in the 1950’s = 43 and from 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s combined = 60 or an average of 20 (will be specific later) from each decade. Actually some of the players in the HOF began their careers in the 1990’s so the discrepancy is worse.
Based on my findings one could suggest the Voters as of right now need to add at least 69 more Offensive players just to come close to par from the 1950’s. At one or two Seniors per year it will take 50 or more years to catch up to some kind of fairness.
I’m going to send a letter to the HOF regarding this problem. I encouraged everyone to do the same if they feel strongly like I do. Too many great players are wasting on the sidelines so to speak and probably being over scrutinzed IMO by the Voters and certianly brought in too slowly.
I will do the Defense later and post my letter to HOF for all to see.
Here you go guys! This is a breakdown of the HOF by decade I promised. I think you’ll find it fascinating like I did. I hope this clears up the picture when we talk about the potential for certian players to make the HOF. For Example if you want a CB or LB from the 1960’s in the HOF it looks really bleak to me. You judge for yourself where the HOF is weak. IMO it appears the Voters have gotten really tough on the players from the start of this thing, especially tough on the 70′ and 80’s (unless you were an 80’s QB). And it really sucks to be a DT or Safety!!
Modern Day (began 1948) Offense- HOFers Members
50’s 60’s 70’s 80’s
__________________________________
QB= 10 4 3 6
RB= 12 4 5 4
WR= 9 6 4 2
G 5 4 2 3
T= 4 5 2 2
C= 3 1 2 1
___________________________________
Tot. 43 24 18 18
TE= 0 4 3 0
PK= 0 1 0 0
Modern Day Defense- HOFers Members
50’s 60’s 70’s 80’s
_________________________________
DT- 6 5 2 0
DE- 5 3 3 3
LB- 5 6 3 4
CB- 1 7 2 2
S- 3 4 0 1
__________________________________
Tot. 20 25 10 10
Sorry. Saving crunched up my numbers together some under the decades.
OK, my reactions on some of these folks:
QB: Ken Stabler: No. Not before Ken Anderson, anyway, who’s got him beat in stats by a bunch. If Anderson gets in, we’ll talk.
QB: John Brodie: No. Blanda, Dawson, Unitas, Starr, and Jurgensen are almost exact contemporaries of his already in the HoF, and Tarkenton overlaps significantly. Plus Brodie has no postseason success to help him. Somebody’s got to be the best at his position for his time not in the HoF, and am thinking it’ll be Brodie.
RB: Roger Craig. No. Good numbers but not enough. Same for Rickey Watters. Compare with Marshall Faulk, even adjusting for era, who definitely belongs and set the bar really high for this type of back.
WR: Cris Carter. Yes, but it’s not unreasonable he’s waiting a little.
C: Mick Tingelhoff. Yes. 5/6/none postseason profile for a center plus hugely long career says so.
G: Bob Kuechenberg. No. 1/6/none is a thin profile and there are 5 guard contemporaries of his already in the HoF.
G: Jerry Kramer. Yes. 5/3/60s is quite good for his time and few current HoF guards overlap.
T: Winston Hill. No. 0/8/none is pretty good. But Jim Tyrer (6/9/AllAFL) is a close contemporary and deserves induction before Hill gets considered.
LB: Robert Brazile. Yes. 2/7/70s is very good for a LB of this time and LBs tend to get short shrift in HoF consideration. Compares favorably with other LBs who should also be in such as Randy Gradishar and Chris Hanburger.
LB: Larry Grantham. No. 5/5/none (mostly in the AFL), certainly very good but note that NFL contemporaries like Chuck Howley (5/6/none), Maxie Baughan (2/9/none), and Joe Fortunato (3/5/50s) put up almost as good or better numbers against stiffer competition and also aren’t in.
DB: Steve Atwater. Yes. 2/8/90s is a good profile for a safety of the time.
P: Ray Guy. Likely yes, but — need to have some questions answered about things HoF voters gripe about such as a supposed lack of deep pins. Would also like to see some other punters, notably Tommy Davis, get more credit than the none they currently receive.
DB: Lemar Parrish. Yes. 1/8/none and great KR.
DB: Erich Barnes. No. 1/6/none is thin for a DB and it’s hard to justify his election when contemporaries like Abe Woodson (2/5/none and monster KR), Cornell Green (3/5/none), and Bob Boyd (3/2/60s) aren’t in yet.
DB: Jimmy Patton. Yes. 5/5/none is terrific for a safety of this era.
DB: Johnny Robinson. Yes. 6/9/allAFL and arguably the best DB of the old AFL. Pure AFL DBs have gotten shamefully short shrift.
And more (Brad’s long list starting with)
QB: John Brodie*
and
RB/KR: Timmy Brown
This is mostly a really solid Hall-of-the-very-good roster. Am thinking the most deserving here are
WR: Del Shofner
TE: Pete Retzlaff
C: Mick Tingelhoff*
G: Jerry Kramer*
LB: Chuck Howley*
LB: Maxie Baughan*
LB: Chris Hanburger*
DB: Abe Woodson
Re Tony P’s comment (which I’ve edited slightly): “Why is Charles Haley 2/5/none, 100.5 Sacks, 8 fumble rec (big part of 5 Super Bowls winning teams) not in the HOF yet???”
The biggest reason is that he’s battling LB contemporaries such as Kevin Greene (2/5/90s, 160 sacks, 26 fumble rec) and Rickey Jackson (0/6/none, 128 sacks, 29 fumble rec), who would seem to have equal or better arguments. And defensive players don’t seem to get the SB win boost in HoF consideration that QBs get.
Bachslunch, I apologize if I missed a response from you on this in another post, but I’m curious about your thoughts on the Hall of Fame worthiness of Rodney Harrison and John Lynch. There was some good debate about these two when Harrison announced his retirement but would be interested in hearing you weigh in.
Thanks.
Any comments about my HOF research? What do you think about there being so many more HOFers from the 1950’s, especially on Offense, compared to the other decades?
My research was based on what decade the player began his career so it wouldn’t necessarily matchup the contemporaries bachslunch mentions. For example when considering Bob Kuechenberg. Under my formula he is only one of two Guards to begin his career in the 1970’s, Joe DeLamielleure is the other. Based on my research the Guards from the 70’s are very lacking in the HOF. Looking at it I did a bit lazily but people do stats in many different ways. I’ll admit this was an easy way of looking it but still took time. :)
From my research it appears there’s (in some cases glaring) justification for HOF player additions in these positions:
50’s CB (maybe the position ws not important like TE ?)
60’s C
70’s QB, G, T, DT, LB, CB, S (pitiful!! 0) what about Jake Scott?
80’s T, WR, TE (pitiful!! 0) DT (pitiful!! 0), CB, S
bachslunch- First of the players you say are really solid HOF choices I noticed 3 are LB and the Voters have already selected 6 LB’s from the 1960’s so seems unfortunately unlikely they get picked. I completely agree with your analysis of Anderson -Stabler. Anderson should be in right especially based on the low number of 70’s QB’s in the HOF. Personally looking at the total career I don’t value Stabler over Jim Plunkett. You can say Plunk started terribly but the same can be said for Stabler’s ending. I saw those horrible Oiler games every week. Oh my God, that arem was so weak and the balls were so wobbly leading to 28 interceptions. They went to the Championship game inspite of him. Only by the grace of the Great Earl Campbell and a fierce Defense lead by another Great Robert Brazille. Brazille was Great and any who thinks different didn’t see him enough IMO.
I totally disagree with your analysis of Brodie. He has postseason experience late in his career. I just heard an ESPN guy say no one has ever been like Favre at 38, taking his team so close to the Super Bowl in loss to NY. Brodie was MVP of the league at 36 and guided his team to back to back NFC Championship games at Favre’s age. We just disagree on this one:) You probably read my argument on the other thread where we supported many deserving players. I sent that letter to the Senior Committeein Canton. Also, Brad supported Larry Grantham and I concurred after researching. He has a great resume in the AFL.
I to don’t recall Ray Guy being especially good at inside the 20 punting. Everyone was so enamoured after he hit the top of the Super Dome. Statistically there are many kickers better but he probably best represents the 1970’s. Still a lot of debate if any Punter is so valuable to be in the HOF. I disagree with Charles Haley because I know how valued he was to the Cowboy Defense. He wouldn’t get in based on what he did in SF but Dallas is where he really gained his reputation after he matured as a fine leader. He deserves to be in the HOF.
I think everyone know my disdain for Cris Carter. Oh well. 130. I’ve been talking to Johnny Robinson’s cousin. I said I would get your opinion. Is there anything you remember about seeing him play. Did you know he played in the Super Bowl with several broken ribs and made an interception? With his credentials I’m a little surprised his junior – teammate Emmit Thomas went into the HOF before him. Johnny runs a Boy’s Home in Louisana. His cousin would like to see him in the HOF before he passes on. Kind of sad the Voters aren’t aware of talent where ever it comes from. He certianly had talent on the same level as the NFL players. The more I research the more I feel the AFL overall talent improved quicker than I originally thought. I was thinking it took 5 or 6 years but know I think the AFL was probably on a par with the NFL after 3 or 4 years. Who really knows for sure.
Johnny Robinson was in the NFL at the end of his career for two years. He was an All-Pro /Pro Bowl player with 10 interceptions in 1970. He played 10 years which is a good length of time for those days. He was a tremendous athelete who had scholorships offered in 3 different sports- football, baseball and tennis. I can’t figure out why he’s being ignored? It might not help him that 4 of the 7 Safeties in the HOF are from the 1960’s. I’m going to push hard for him in 2010!
Tony P., a couple thoughts here:
-one thing to consider regarding LBs and the HoF is that the majority of those in are MLBs (or in Harry Carson’s case, an ILB in a 3-4 defense). OLBs are to my way of thinking shamefully underrepresented in the HoF (of the 19 LBs in, only 7 played on the outside, with Tippett and Thomas only very recently being elected). All those I mentioned above are OLBs.
-I value neither Stabler nor Plunkett for the HoF. If I had choose one as more worthy, it would be Stabler. But I think Ken Anderson belongs in before either.
-by QB post-season success, I’m thinking Super Bowls. Note that some hall-of-the-very-good QBs got elected to the HoF on the strength of multiple SB wins. Brodie never even got to one, while his HoF contemporaries at least did (neither Jurgensen nor Tarkenton were on a team that won one, though). Not saying Brodie’s a stiff or anything, of course.
Re Johnny Robinson. I can’t say I saw him live or on film, but 6/7/allAFL really stands out here, and by a lot. You know the old saying “50 million Frenchmen can’t be wrong” or something to that effect? I still have no idea why Emmitt Thomas (1/5/none) was elected ahead of him.
Re Rodney Harrison. His postseason profile is 2/2, which is pretty low. And like Steve Wisniewski, his HoF argument may be adversely affected by a reputation for dirty on-field play. John Lynch’s 2/9 profile strikes me as more impressive. And there’s also Ed Reed (4/5) and Brian Dawkins (4/7) to consider.
bachslunch,
Roger Staubach brought up a great point at today’s HOF Induction where he reminded people the the QB’s weren’t as accurate in the 60’s and 70’s because the DB’s could knock the hell out of the WR’s anywhere off the line of scrimmage as long as the ball wasn’t in the air which made it tougher for the QB to hookup with a WR. That’s why teams ran the ball more. I had forgot that DB’s could fight with the WR all the way down the field if a WR wasn’t skilled at running routes and gaining separation.
Seems like we’re going to agree to disagree on Brodie and Plunkett’s value. Can’t deny that both QB’s were stuck with terrible teams for many years. It must of been tough for Brodie’s 49ers Offense to play in a Division with the Packers, Colts, Bears, Lions, Vikings and Rams with (George Allen’s Fearsome Foursome Defense)throughout the 1960’s? I think everyone one of these teams except the 49ers had really good Defenses throughout the 1960’s. The 49ers still usually finished at .500. Even the great Dan Marino had his share of .500 seasons without much talent around him. Also the New England Patriots sucked when the Golden Boy Plunkett arrived. Boston is a heck of a long ways from Stanford University. Plunkett turned around his career (unlike many Heisman busts which seems remarkable) guiding the Raiders to two SB’s when he matured and received some protection. I loved watching Plunkett’s dancing bear act as tip-toed in the backfield usually eluding the oncoming pass rushers.LOL!! Not pretty but oh so effective.
I agree that Rodney Harrison and Steve Wisniewski don’t make the grade. I think John Lynch will make it but there are a lot of haters around :) Ed Reed is in if he plays 10 years. He’s a rare talent.
The crazy thing is there’s a picture of Johnny “Rob” Robinson as HOF Finalist with a group that included Fran Tarkington and about 4 other players. It must of been taken around 1983 and Johnny is the only player of the 6 in the pic not in the HOF now. Johnny was one of the biggest stars from the AFL. There are pics of him on Facebook. After Super Bowl IV he was on a Wheaties box. They called him “Super Man”. The Chiefs were 35-1-1 in games where he had a Int. Reminds me of the Tony Dorsett stat if he ran for a 100 yds in a game.
Who’s the best FB from this group not in the HOF between Rick Casares, Bill Brown, Jim Nance, Don Perkins, Ken Willard, Pete Johnson or Mark van Eeaghn ??
Which RB has been the closest to the parallel of Gale Sayers career?? Off the top of my head I’d say Billy Sims or Terrell Davis. I wouldn’t mind if both went to the HOF in fact Davis needs to be there IMO. 1998 was one of the best years ever by a RB with over 2,000 yds and 125 yds per game with a 5.1 yds per carry. One could argue that Davis’s 4 great years were as good or better the Sayers’s 4 great years. Maybe not the style points but that’s in the eye of the beholder. I loved the way all three ran. It’s a good thing the HOF election isn’t up to me because when it come to RB’s I would put about 30 of them in the HOF. There are so many I liked!!! LOL!!
Safties and DT’s since 1970 are the throw away positions by the HOF Voters. “No respect, no respect” as Johnny Dangerfield would say. I guess the thinking is that Safties were Cornerbacks who weren’t athletic enough to play the position?? And DT’s aren’t as important since teams are pass oriented?? Just thoughts.
Here’s my All-Star Team from HOF deserve-to-be’s:
QB- Jim Plunkett (one QB to win a BIG GAME)
FB- Roger Craig (this high stepper did it all with 7 straight yrs of 1,000 plus yds from scrimmage)
RB- George Rodgers (Powerhouse!)
T- Jim Tyrer
T- Joe Jacoby
C- Mick Tinglehof
G-
G-
TE-Ben Coates
WR- Cliff Branch
WR- Harold Carmichael
DE-
DE-
DT-
DT-
NT-
OLB-
MLB-
ILB-
OLB-
S-Johnny Robinson
S-Jake Scott
CB-Deron Cherry
CB-Kenny Easley
why isn’t Chris Doleman mentioned more for the Hall of Fame? He had 150 sacks for his career.
Lol!! I feel asleep before I could finish my list.
Doleman will be mentioned at some point but this board has been sort of hijacked by pre-90’s players. The HOF is so far behind.
Here’s my All-Star Team from HOF caliber players who’ve been been passed over so far. This is also the team I’d put against today’s players.
Offense All-Star ( ) Back-ups
QB- John Hadl – a Mad Bomer (Jim Plunkett (crafty and nimble and proved to be a BIG GAME QB!!)
RB- Terrell Davis – IMO on par as a RB with Gale Sayers (George Rogers Big ,strong and fast)
FB – Roger Craig – durable high stepper who did it all!! (Chuck Foreman -versatile big man with moves)
T- Jim Tyrer – (Richmond Webb)
T – Joe Jacoby – (Will Wolford – 4 SB)
C- Mick Tinglehoff (Kent Hull)
G- Bob Kuechenberg (Russ Grimm)
G- Jerry Kramer (Walt Sweeney)
TE- Ben Coates (Riley Odoms)
WR- Cliff Branch (Drew Pearson – Clutch!)
WR- Harold Carmichael – Incredible athelete at 6’8″ with catches in 129 consecutive games (Harold Jackson)
Defense All-Star Team ( ) Back-ups
DE- L.C. Greenwood (Harvey Martin)
DE- Charles Haley (Richard Dent)
DT- Roger Brown (Dave Butz – 6’7″ Mountian of a man!!)
DT- Cortez Kennedy John Randle)
NT- Curly Culp – really could plug the middle. (Bob Baumhower – a Killer B)
OLB- Kevin Greene (Rod Martin – the “Rod” could make things happen)
MLB- Tommy Nobis – hardnosed hitter!! (Bill Bradley -crazy mean hitter!)
ILB- Robert Brazile (Maxie Baughn)
OLB- Rickey Jackson (Isiah Robertson- speedy intercepter)
S-Johnny Robinson (Donnie Shell)
S-Jake Scott (Steve Atwater)
CB- Lester Hayes (Erich Barnes)
CB- Eric Allen (Lemar Parrish)
Hey guys. Sorry that I haven’t been on for a while. Maybe you have heard that John Carney has signed with the New Orleans Saints. Looking at his stats, he could make the HOF.
IMO, if you score 2,000 points, you should be highly considered for the Hall Of Fame.
He currently has 1,955 points. Keep that in mind.
Is Shaun Alexander a HOFer? That’s a big question. Keep in mind, he has 112 total TD’s, he scored 20TD+ 2 times, he has a NFL MVP. Led the NFL in rushing rushing yards 1 time, rushing TD’s 2 times, led the NFL in total TD’s 2 times.
Guees who:
B: 3/6 (6 straight PB’s). 71 total TD’s. Super Bowl Ring. number retired.
RB: 0/2. 8,261 rushing yards, 56 rushing TD’s. 512 receptions, 4,605 receiving yards, 15 receiving TD’s. 72 total TD’s (56 rushing TD’s, 15 receiving TD’s, 1 fumble recovery for TD). I believe he never made the ballot.
Had to look both those running backs up. I don’t think either is HOF material.
I don’t think Alexander is going to be HOF material either, unless he somehow gets back in the game for a few more years. It does bring up an interesting question, which I’ve thought about doing a post on–what’s going to happen to RBs getting into the hall, given today’s proclivity for short careers and splitting time amongst 2-3 backs? We could soon see that few (or no) backs can put up the kind of career numbers needed to match those put up by generations past…
I don’t think Carney is either. 2,000 points is a nice accomplishment (if he gets it–he may only kick for the first 4 games for the Saints), but it’s over 21 years–it would take him another 5-7 years most likely to match Anderson or Andersen. His other kicking stats aren’t eye-popping either.
Tony P. asked: “Who’s the best FB from this group not in the HOF between Rick Casares, Bill Brown, Jim Nance, Don Perkins, Ken Willard, Pete Johnson or Mark van Eeaghn ??”
Good question. Forced to choose, probably Casares or Perkins. They’re all solid RBs, of course. The biggest problem with any FB from the 50s and 60s is that they pale next to Jim Brown and Jim Taylor.
And the problem with comparing Terrell Davis to Gale Sayers is twofold:
-Sayers had 5 great years (out of 7) while Davis had 4 (out of 7).
-Sayers was a world-class KR, while Davis didn’t return kicks.
Given that short career players often get less respect than those of ca. 10 or more seasons under their belt, any difference can become more significant for a short-career player in HoF consideration.
bachslunch, excellent insight!
One thing I’ve been thinking is when folks are on the fence about Roger Craig they may be forgetting he was a FB for a chunk of his career blocking for the great RB- Wendell Tyler. Forget his fumbles and Tyler was a hell of a RB close to HOF worthy IMO. Anyway, Craig did lose carries playing as a FB. Damn, I t
thought Rathman was better than his stats.
Now I want to pick your brain some more. :)
Given that a RB’s career can go out like a flame. Do you agree that it’s the one position that can make the HOF on style points more than any other? Say if Adrian Peterson lasts five years. Would you vote for a super special guy like that. Or maybe you don’t think his talent is special enough? There’s one RB that had short career that leaps out at me and I always think HOF. A hint- his Coach BS. Initials fit well Lol!!
Also what’s your opinion of George Rogers?
Here’s another– who was the better FB in their prime- Jim Taylor or Larry Csonka and why?
Tough one— Who do you invision to be a HOFer – Mark Clayton or Gary Clark and why? You must pick one! IMO they were to good for one of them not to make it. Related to one a famous announcer was fired. Do you remember who and what was said?
Here’s a stat for you- as a general rule, with rarely an exception, no RB gets into the HOF with less than 4.1
yds per carry. The only one I know of is Big John Riggins at 3.9. He got in based on 104 TD’s much like Marcus Allen IMO. That sort of bodes poorly for Chuck Foreman at 3.8. What about Jerome Bettis at 3.9 who only ever had 4 seasons that would be considered better than average. Most were well under avg. His receptions/avg were poor also. He might have to wait awhile!! Everyone remember the fumble? I sure do!!
Finally of the 21 modern day WR’s in the HOF only 3 have less than 15.2 yds per catch for their careers. Yes, I’m going to trash on the great Cris Carter some more. It’s been too long, at least a couple weeks!! There names are Jeryy Rice at 14.8, Raymond Berry at 14.7 and Art Monk at 13.5. Carter has an awe inspiring 12.6 yuk! Carter hardly broke a tackle in his life and at 4 or 5 inches taller than his opponents he should of caught all of those TD’s. And he’s whinning about waiting a year or two. I’d make him wait wait 10 more years. At the very least I’d put Tim Brown in first. He was more versatile and flat out a better WR in my opinion. Brown didn’t have Robert Smith and Randall McDaniel on his side. I don’t ever remember Carter going over the middle like Brown was asked to do.. I’d pick a half a dozen 5’9″ WR’s over Carter’s 6’3″. I’m through venting.
Darren Sharper’s HOF stock just went up. He had 2 Int’s to start the season off. 56 Int’s for his career. Is he HOF bound? I think so.
Curtis Martin has a 4.0 yard avg. Will he get in? He would have been a first ballot HOFer if Marshall Faulk wasn’t on the ballot the same time. Just keep in mind, the only players who have more rushing yards than Curtis are Emmitt Smith(future first ballot), Walter Payton( first ballot), and Barry Sanders (first ballot).
Martin is a shoein but will take a few years IMO. 4.0 is a little low but if I recall he ran inside for alot of tough yards later in his career. Still impressive but the yards were tougher.
I’ll never forget how awesome he was in a skills challenge one year.
Tony P, what are your views about Darren Sharper in the HOF?
I will give stats of players who are HOF material. Guess who they are and tell me if they get in if you can’t guess who they are, than you can look them up:
RB: 1/3. Over 10,000 rushing yards. 586 receptions. Led the NFL in yards from scrimmage 2 seasons in a row. 4.7 per carry. Also was a good return man.
RB: 0/4. 7,962 rushing yards, 3,621 receiving yards. 49 rushing TD’s and 30 receiving TD’s. 14,910 All-Purpose Yards.
Re Darren Sharper: his postseason honors numbers at present are 1/4, which is low compared to the best of his CB contemporaries. See Champ Bailey (3/8) and Ronde Barber (3/5) for comparison, both of whom I’d think have a better chance of election. And this doesn’t include safeties as diverse as Ed Reed (4/5), Brian Dawkins (4/7), and John Lynch (2/9). Sharper’s pretty good for sure, but there’s a lot of competition here with more impressive numbers.
Sharper is a shoe in and on my contest team. I thinks those stats are for Watters and Brooks both of which are on my contest team which no one played.
I’ll take Sharper over Lynch anyday and Reed is not in decade. Barber is a good call but no one will keep Sharper with his 57 int’s and 11 defensive TD’s out of the HOF. He was a beast for many years!!! It’s easy to forget.
Tony P., I’m not at all a fan of electing DBs into the HoF who have lots of INTs and relatively small postseason honor numbers. And that goes for Ken Riley (1/0/none), Dick LeBeau (0/3/none), Eugene Robinson (0/3/none), and Dave Brown (0/1/none) as well as Sharper. Interceptions aren’t the only successful way to defend a pass, and one might argue that good coverage and pass deflections are at least as successful while incurring less risk than going for an INT (with the last of these, there’s the risk of a miss and getting burned — great if you get a pick, maybe skid marks on your behind if you don’t). It’s not the same as pass receptions or reception yards or average yards per catch, which is pretty much what a receiver needs to amass to be successful and all of which can be quantified. You can’t count “good coverage” in a tangible way. But I am thinking 1st team all pro selections and to a lesser extent pro bowls will more readily take into account the intangibles for DBs.
Sharper’s career runs from 1997 to 2009, Reed’s from 2002 to (so far) 2009 — both players would appear to be “in decade” for the ’00s.
And I’ll personally take Lynch’s 2/9 profile over Sharper’s 1/4. You’re welcome to choose as you wish, but these numbers wouldn’t seem to support the reverse preference.
Sharper’s 1/4 profile is gotten from pro-football-reference.com, which I assume is a reliable source. Specifics:
Sharper was named to AP’s All-NFL 1st team in 2000 but no other year.
Sharper was on Pro Bowl squads in 2000, 2002, 2005, and 2007.
He’s certainly not a stiff or anything, but his numbers are smaller than those for Bailey, Barber, Reed, Dawkins, and Lynch. And for me at least, that matters, especially given that DBs in general and safeties in particular get minimal love from the HoF committee.
I agree with Bachslunch on Sharper. He was certainly better than good. But I think he was overrated for a good chunk of his time with the Packers. And interceptions don’t paint the entire picture.
Just looked at the all-time interception list here:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/def_int_career.htm
Among guys equal to or within a handful or so interceptions of sharper include Everson Walls, Terrell Buckley, Eugene Robinson, Deron Cherry … all decent players but not guys being clamored about for induction.
Now, admittedly, Sharper is a better player than those guys. But I would also take Lynch over Sharper and right now Sharper would be a no on my list rather than a yes.
Just my opinion.
Lynch will probably be elected to the HOF. I’m not doubting that. I just don’t view him as a better player than Sharper.
And Andy, how is Sharper overrated with a post season of 1-4? Sharper’s knack for int’s and spectacular returns for TD’s isn’t something you see often. IMO Lynch is overrated at 2-9 !! The media (Madden) built him up because of his ability to deliver big hits in prime time. He was a great hitter and an average safety (26 ints).
If I have to choose I’ll take int’s and TD’s over flashy big hits. Which shows better coverage? Actually Sharper appears to be an equally good tackler and is rated as a better player using Sports Reference’s formula.
You need to look at my HOF Contest List of players to get my views on the position. I believe picking Sharper over Lynch was correct. If I’m in error it would be picking LeRoy Butler and Brian Dawkins over Lynch.
When I picked my Contest team the rules stated I choose a Safety whose career began in the 1990’s so I couldn’t pick Ed Reed who everyone is enamoured by because of his Sharper like Int. returns for TD’s. :)
I like Sharper a lot. 57 Int’s is a great milestone. This stat is the one that i cant believe seen these decade: 3 seasons with 7+ Int’s.
Well, Tony P., what impresses me about Ed Reed a whole lot more than the INTs returned for TDs is that 4/5 postseason profile and the fact that he’s still playing at a pretty high level and may add to those numbers (we shall see, of course, how he goes from here). Now that’s impressive. But you probably knew I was going to say that given your smiley emoticon. :-)
Anybody have an opinion on Sharper?
NFL Left Tackle: 1/7. 263 games played(19th all time;9th all time if you don’t include kickers/punters;except for Lou Groza and George Blanda) Never made it past the first round of the HOF.
Brad said: “NFL Left Tackle: 1/7. 263 games played(19th all time;9th all time if you don’t include kickers/punters;except for Lou Groza and George Blanda) Never made it past the first round of the HOF.”
That’s Lomas Brown. I’m guessing he’ll fall just short of the HoF, as he has OT contemporaries with a better chance of making it in, most notably Jonathan Ogden (4/11/likely 00s), Willie Roaf (3/11/90s), and Walter Jones (4/9/likely 00s). Not to mention that he may have a hard time breaking out of a logjam including players like Orlando Pace (3/7/likely 00s), Richmond Webb (2/7/90s), and Tony Boselli (3/5/90s in short career). If memory serves, there are no more than 4 closely contemporary OTs in the HoF at present, and unless the hall gets less stringent, there’s no way all seven are getting elected.
In fact, Brown looks a lot like Mike Kenn (2/5/none and very long career) and George Kunz (1/8/none), and both are going nowhere fast in relation to the HoF. Plus Brown has only been eligible for a couple years now, and given that Randall McDaniel (7/11/90s) waited until his 2nd year as finalist before being elected, it’s not surprising Brown hasn’t gotten noticed yet. He may never even be a finalist, in fact. Hard to say.
Did you naysayers (Andy and Bachslunch) notice Darren Sharper is still looking damn good LOL!!:)??
He predicted a pick off of Jets QB Sanchez before game,than in today’s game took int. all the way to the house. Nice way to add to his HOF credentials. :) That makes 2 int’s returned for TD’s this year and makes 10 int returns for TD’s in his career. Not bad for a 13 yr – 35 yr old Safety?? I can only remember a few great ones like Ronnie Lott, Willie Brown, Jimmy Johnson, and Rod Woodson playing that well late into their careers.
Anyone think Sharper makes the HOF if he gets another PB ? Or does he need to make AP? :) I’m just messing with you guys. His play is a bit ironic. Actually I didn’t realize he was still playing when I threw my support his way.
Andy- I think your opinion is dead wrong regarding Sharper vs Lynch and being a HOFer. I’ll take Sharper’s recent Int. TD returns of 97yds and today’s 99 yds as further evidence for Sharper’s ability over Lynch. :) I think you must have a problem with his origins. I suppose you’ll never embrace Favre either?
Stats wise Sharper is now at the same age as when Ronnie Lott retired. Lott has 5 more Ints with 63 but 5 less TD returns with 5 to Sharper’s 10. Tackles which are unreliable but I think better kept since 1990 Lott has 4 100+ seasons with an amazing LB like total of 1,113 total compared to Sharper’s 677 which is in line with the position.
IMO Lott is much like Rice in that they are the gold standard of the position. The fact that Sharper is statistically in the conversation bodes well for his HOF chances.
Sharper just collected his 10th TD ret to be 2nd all by himself on this list of great players:
1. Rod Woodson+ 12 1987-2003 4TM
2. Darren Sharper (33) 9 1997-2009 3TM
3. Ken Houston+ 9 1967-1980 2TM
Deion Sanders 9 1989-2005 5TM
Aeneas Williams 9 1991-2004 2TM
6. Eric Allen 8 1988-2001 3TM
7. Herb Adderley+ 7 1961-1972 2TM
Ronde Barber (33) 7
Erich Barnes 7 1958-1971 3TM
Lem Barney+ 7 1967-1977 det
Ty Law (34) 7 1995-2008 3TM
Otis Smith 7 1991-2003 4TM
Charles Woodson (32) 7 1998-2009 2TM
14. Bobby Bell+ 6 1963-1974 kan
Derrick Brooks (35) 6 1995-2008 tam
Terrell Buckley 6 1992-2005 6TM
Miller Farr 6 1965-1973 5TM
Aaron Glenn (36) 6 1994-2008 5TM
Darrell Green+ 6 1983-2002 was
Terry McDaniel 6 1988-1998 2TM
Tom Janik 6 1963-1971 3TM
Do you really think the person in second place amongst these great players won’t make it to the HOF?
IMO everyone before Lem Barney should make the HOF and of course the 2nd LB with 6 – Brooks is a shoe-in. Funny how most folks would think C-Wood didn’t live up to Heisman but he really has had an excellent Pro career.
Amazing to me that Jake Scott who was an excellent punt returner never returned one of his 49 Int’s for a TD.
Darren Sharper is a HOFer! Im a Jets fan…hahahaha. 59 Int’s, 10 for TD’s! His PB/AP isn’t that strong (1/4, soon to be at least a 1/5) but voter shouldn’t really based it on that. 3 seasons with 230+ Int yards, 4 seasons with 2 Int TD’s, and 6 seasons with 5+ Int’s is just amazing.
Punters don’t get repect for the HOF. Ray Guy (best punter of all time) isn’t even in the HOF. How about another Raider punter for the Hall? Shane Lechler for the Hall of fame 20?? Who’s with me? I think when Shane retires, I honestly think Ray Guy will be inducted. Shane avg. 47.0 yards per punt. I think Shane has a case…already
Brad–
Re: Darren Sharper, here’s what I wrote above, and I think it applies here. Note in particular the last sentence, which is the crux of the argument I like to advance for AP/PB/AllDecade as likely most definitive:
“…I’m not at all a fan of electing DBs into the HoF who have lots of INTs and relatively small postseason honor numbers. And that goes for Ken Riley (1/0/none), Dick LeBeau (0/3/none), Eugene Robinson (0/3/none), and Dave Brown (0/1/none) as well as Sharper. Interceptions aren’t the only successful way to defend a pass, and one might argue that good coverage and pass deflections are at least as successful while incurring less risk than going for an INT (with the last of these, there’s the risk of a miss and getting burned — great if you get a pick, maybe skid marks on your behind if you don’t). It’s not the same as pass receptions or reception yards or average yards per catch, which is pretty much what a receiver needs to amass to be successful and all of which can be quantified. You can’t count “good coverage” in a tangible way. But I am thinking 1st team all pro selections and to a lesser extent pro bowls will more readily take into account the intangibles for DBs.”
In general, I’m skeptical of raw stats for defensive players, as I’m not sure how much solid information they tell you. Personally, I’m fine with a player who has high AP/PB/AllDecade honors and lots of INTs as a HoF-er, fine with a player who has high AP/PB/AllDecade honors without lots of INTs as a HoF-er, but not low AP/PB/AllDecade honors and lots of INTs.
Also, I’m getting a sense of “flavor of the month” with HoF talk for Sharper. There are plenty of concurrent safeties who have every bit as good an argument for the HoF as Sharper, including John Lynch, Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins, and Troy Polamalu for starters. Note that I’m not saying Sharper is a stiff, OK? But it’s going to have to be a pretty big HoF to fit all these players in, and DBs in general and safeties in particular don’t seem to get loads of love from HoF voters.
RE: punters and the HoF. There’s a reason why no pure punters have gotten in the HoF yet. Some HoF voters think that since punters participate in at most 6-7 plays per game, they no more deserve HoF membership than, say, long snappers or extra point holders. Whether I agree or not, well that doesn’t mean much to the folks that count, does it? Feel free to write to the committee and argue, OK? :-)
But I would very much like to see a good tangible argument that says Ray Guy was the “best punter of all time.” That means no vague anecdotal style arguments or arguments from authority like “the award for best college punter is named for Ray Guy” or “Ray Guy hit the Superdome Gondola with a punt once” or “John Madden thinks Ray Guy belongs in the Hall of Fame.” Also, look up a 49ers punter from the 1960s named Tommy Davis — I’ll be glad to provide context on him if you like.
Tony, You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind – just making my own case. There’s no doubt Sharper has made plenty of big plays during his career. I remain of the belief that he was overrated when he was in Green Bay. A friend who happens to be a life-long Packers fan agreed with me on that, for what it’s worth.
As for Favre, I admit – it does still seem a bit strange to see him in purple. But even when he was in Green Bay, while he helped ruin many of my Sunday afternoons, I’ve never had any problem calling him one of the all-time greats. I wouldn’t put him in my top three QBs ever, but he’d probably make top six or seven.
And no worries about messing with me. A certain amount of that comes with publishing your opinions on the net – can’t expect everyone to agree with you.
Cheers.
I got a great player for you all!
FB: 0/1(Should have been a 0/4). 82 total TD’s. 4 seasons with 10+ TD’s. 3 seasons with 14+ TD’s. Not on the ballot, ever, I believe.
Ohhhh, OK Andy, Thanks for clearing that up. So you’re a guy who knows another guy. I didn’t know you knew that guy. If I would of known? Tell your guy thanks and I was wrong.
And if I ever see Sharper, I’ll tell him he’s over-rated and I know of a guy who knows a Green Bay guy who thinks so. Perfect!! But what if he asks me why? And than who’s on first?
Brad,
If he’s a productive FB it must be before 1980? Bachslunch should know without looking.
Well, he did play from 1977-1984.
I don’t know, Chuck Muncie? If so he was the larger version of Chuck Foreman. Very scary if you were a DB when he got up a head of speed. Bruising which made him a TD machine. As a USC fan he broke my heart when he led his Golden Bears in victory over my Trojans. I think we had Ricky Bell as RB at the time. IMO he has the talent of a HOFer but not the career. George Rogers career was much the same.
Chuck Muncie is a great guess. Actually its Pete Johnson FB for the Bengals. Chuck Foreman deserves to make the HOF. 1/5, Led the NFL in total TD’s 2 times. Led the NFL receptions in 1975 (73 receptions).
Pete Johnson was a TD machine. I’d like to know how many of his TD’s were under 3 yards? He was a better runner at OSU but in the NFL he was going to out run many at 250lbs. I never knew he had that many TD’s. He really found his niche. Another TD maker was Sam “Bam” Cunningham who dove (hmm can’t spell that word) jumped over the pile. LOL! In fact they played about the same time.
I’d compare him to ???Ron Dayne but Dayne never really found success in the NFL.
Darren Sharper HOFer? YES! 1 more Int TD, ties Rod Woodson for most all time. Pro Bowl is given, but can you say All Pro? I think you can!
Brad – I think it might be a little early to annoint the All-Pro and Pro Bowl teams, but Sharper does probably have the early lead for both. I’m still not ready to annoint him a lock for the HOF, either–he wasn’t before yesterday in my eyes, and one game isn’t going to make him a lock in my eyes. But if he keeps up this level of play for the season, and the Saints continue to do well, he may earn a HOF vote from me (not that my votes count anywhere). Coming back and doing it again next year would help too.
Jamal Lewis said he will retire. That’s springs the question….Is he a Hall of Famer?
Donovan McNabb is a Hall of Famer no doubt. BUT, he is not a 1st nor 2nd ballot HOFer. There is a list of QB’s IMO that should get enshrined before D-McNabb: Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Boomer Esiason, Tom Brady, and Kurt Warner. Here is a list of QB’s who could potentionally threaten him down the road: Vinny Testaverde(gotta love him!), Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins, Steve McNair R.I.P., Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, John Brodie(senior nominee), John Hadl(senior nominee), Ken Stabler(senior nominee), Ken Anderson(senior nominee).
Pros: 5 Time Pro Bowler. 200+ Passing TD’s. 30,000+ Passing yards. 4 seasons with 11+ Wins as a starter. Only 4 seasons with double digit Int’s, never threw more than 13 in a season. 3,000+ rushing yards. 27 Rushing TD’s. Been to a SB. Warrior.
Cons: No All Pro Teams. No MVP. No SB title. Only had 4 completed seasons(as in, only started all 16 games in 4 seasons out of 11). Sacked 40+ times in 3 seasons.
Jamal Lewis goes in only if Cory Dillon enters before him.
Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are 100% shoe-ins.
Donovan McNabb looks like a Hall of Famer at 90%. A SB win would ice it for the voters. Rush didn’t know talent.
Ben Roethlisberger and Kurt Warner are 75% and movin up!
Boomer Esiason, Ken Anderson and Steve McNair are 50-50.
Vinny Testaverde (I’m a Dolphin fan and I don’t luv him!! Lol!!), Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins are less than 25%.
I’d add Billy Kilmer to this list. John Brodie(senior nominee), John Hadl(senior nominee) and Ken Stabler(senior nominee) are less than 10%
Go Fins!! They have the Jets # (1-800 -YOU-LOSE) LOL!! Sorry Brad :)
TIP – Don’t be like me – always good to save reply (especially if long) in case website has a problem accepting reply like happened to me.
I scolded Tony real good over his latest Sharper comments LOL!!! and it got hung up/lost. I’ll spare you that one :) but it was good stuff. :)
It’s ok Tony P. The Jets season is over. I would rate Kurt Warner higher than D-McaNbb. Kurt has 2 MVP’s, McNabb doesn’t have 1. Kurt led the League in TD’s and passing yards. McNabb hasn’t. Kurt has a much better comp. percentage than McNabb. Kurt has a SB MVP. McNabb doesn’t.
Good points! I was thinking McNabb had more consistancy but he’s been out a lot with injury so that probably evens out. Do you think the Division they played in makes a difference?
I hate to say this type of comment ( it didn’t bode well for Rush Lol!!) but might race have anything to do with who gets in the HOF if the voters percieve Warner and McNabb as equal? There’s never been a black QB inducted into the HOF. Will there be pressure to put McNabb or McNair into the HOF???? :)
Ummm…Warren Moon?
I don’t think McNair has a good chance. And after looking at his stats today, I not sure I think McNabb does either–not when facing guys like Favre, Manning and (possibly) Brees.
Warren Moon is very underrated. If he played his whole career in the NFL, Favre will still be trying to break some passing records. Drew Brees is a sure shot HOFer IMO. I think he will reach 50,000 passing yards in his career.
Talking about Saints players, well, lets talk about the player with 61 Int’s, 11 for TD’s. He just passed Prime Time for 2nd all time in Int yards. And he is just 41 yards shy of the single season Int yard record. And keep in mind, he has 7 Int’s in 7 games. The single season record is 14 by Night Train Lane., Its now safe to say he will make the Pro Bowl. He should be in the running for defensive player of the year. And he should be at least 2nd team All Pro. He is not a first ballot HOFer, but he should get in no problem.
Darren Sharper, IMO, is in the top 10 most underrated players of all-time, along with the greatest back in Jets history Curtis Martin(who I respect a lot). Curtis Martin is 4th all time in rushing yards, and hes not “considered” a top 10 RB of all time. He is IMO.
A great question that keeps getting in my head is: Is Terrell Owens a first ballot HOFer? Just skimming his stats say yes. He has the 2nd most receiving TD’s. 5/6. 974 receptions and he has a 14.8 yards per receptions avg. which is not bad at all. I think his drop balls and his negative “image” will be against him. I think the voters will factor that in.
You’re right, Tony!! I totally fogot about Warren Moon being in the HOF. Most folks didn’t see Moon’s color. He never made an issue of it until late in his career. Also some of the color blindness was maybe because he spent so much time building up his credentials as a winner for Edmonton in the whitest place on earth. LOL!! I loved rooting for him and those CFL teams on the new channel – ESPN.
In their first years the CFL, Rugby, LaCrosse, Tennis and the same News cast 20 times a day were all I remember watching. Re-run after re-run LOL!! ESPN was pretty lame back than but it was new and it proved sports fans will watch anything..
Brad,
T.O. will have to wait just like most great WR’s do. If he was a good teammate he might not have to. I’m going to love his reaction when the “Head Diva” is made to wait. LOL!!
Speaking of questions, will Mr. Ocho-Cinco make it to the HOF??
I’ll go with the Sharper points up to a point but Sharper got his fair share of pub on Monday night and lots of great players have lacked the publicity they deserved. I’d put Johnny Robinson near the top because I was a total football geek growing up and continue to be fairly well read and I didn’t know who the man was until recently.
To really say someone is underrated I’d look at how much they’re talked about for the 10 years after they retire. And to be honest, I don’t know if they think everyone has ESPN Classic or what but the media/Color Announcers of today do a horrible job of keeping legendary player’s reputations alive. It’s history is one thing that makes the NFL great.
With all the speak they fill the airwaves with talking every second of a broadcast you’d think the Color Guys could talk more about the history/older players of the game. John Madden did some of that and we’ll miss that IMO. Announcers always use to refer to the older players.
You mention Curtis Martin but what about Emmitt Smith the all-time rushing leader?? I used to hear the old rushing leader Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Jim Taylor, Bart Starr, Deacon Jones, Dick Butkis, Jimmy Johnson, The Purple People Eaters, Doomesday, Fearsome Foursome Johnny U, and many more names brought up frequently for many years. Why aren’t the more recent greats talked about?? I heard LT and Rice and Sanders ocassionally. They’re so busy with enough X’s and O’s to make your head spin. Don’t get me wrong, I like some of the announcing and not all of the oldies were great. I just think they need to find a balance.
I think the Announcing Team of Gus Johnson and Steve Tasker who do the Texans games are pretty good. Especially Gus!!
Ochocinco is a great WR, but I don’t think he is Hall of Fame material just yet. He is a 5 Time Pro Bowler and was a 2 time All Pro. The line right now for the Hall Of Fame at the WR position is extremely long and filled with great names, and that list includes potentional senior nominees: Jerry Rice(lock), Tim Brown(lock), Marvin Harrison(lock). Randy Moss(lock), Terrell Owens(lock), Cris Carter, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Andre Reed,Irving Fryar, Jimmy Smith, Hines Ward,Stanley Morgan, Harold Carmichael and Andre Johnson. Mark Clayton never gets the credit he deserves. He has 84 receiving TD’s and was named to 5 Pro Bowls. I will put him on the list.
Ty Law just signed with the Denver Broncos. I know he’s not going to impact or put up good numbers with them, but, despite that, is he a Hall of Fame caliber player? He was named to the All Time Patriot Team. He has 52 Int’s and 7 Int TD’s. He led the NFL in Int’s 2 times, 7 years apart. Over 800 tackles. 5 Time Pro Bowler. 2 Time All Pro.
Are Jeremy Shockey,Antonio Gates, and Jason Witten Hall Of Fame caliber as well?
Can Alan Faneca be a first ballot HOFer?
Brad asked: “Can Alan Faneca be a first ballot HOFer?”
Am thinking if Randall McDaniel wasn’t (and he wasn’t), Faneca won’t be either.
But, Alan Faneca is a sure shot HOFer.
Brad, I agree that Alan Faneca (6/8/likely 00s) belongs in the HoF and ideally should have a very good chance of being elected. But given that Randall McDaniel (7/12/90s) wasn’t a first ballot HoF inductee, I can’t see that Faneca will be first-ballot either.
The list of o-linemen who primarily played guard and were elected first ballot is very small, only Gene Upshaw, John Hannah, and Bruce Matthews (also C-OT). Two other first ballot guys, Jim Parker and Forrest Gregg, played a fair bit at guard but more games at tackle. That means eminently worthy HoF guards such as McDaniel, Joe DeLamielleure, Mike Munchak, Gene Hickerson, Tom Mack, Larry Little, and Billy Shaw weren’t first ballot either — pretty good company for Faneca, actually.
Why wasn’t Paul Krause a first ballot HOFer? He has the most Int’s. He had 16 games with 2+ Int’s, He Pro Bowled 8 Times and 3 First Team All Pros. How isn’t all of that first ballot???????
He was pretty slow but had great hands and at 6’3″ could play a heck of a centerfield. He was certianly crafty to get so many Ints. I think most people that watched him thought he was good but considered the number of Ints. a fluke. I don’t remember him playing very physical either.
Besides with the Vikings the DL got most of the pub. Eller, Marshall, Larson and Page were one of the best lines until the Super Bowl every year when they couldn’t match the more physical opponents in the Chiefs, Dolphins, Steelers and Raiders. The Vikings only real chance was against the Steelers but their Offense was anemic.
So they have Eller and Page in the HOF. I think the totality of the talent in the NFL was pretty weak in the late 60’s and early 70’s which maybe made Krause 3/8 more inflated. By 1970 the NFL was starving for the AFL talent. I never was too impressed with Krause. I saw most of his PB years. But his career 81 Ints. is impressive and as is a 16 year career. I think he waited about right. :) Certianly IMO more deserving a HOFer than Dick Lebeau and I don’t even need to of seen him play. LOL !!
Are they really going to put him in the HOF over Johnny Robinson??
I think Josh Cribbs deserves to be on the ballot. He already has 6 KR TD’s (T-1st all time), and hes only 26. He also plays gunner.
Josh Cribbs is amazing. If this 2nd year WR Desean Jackson I’m watching for Philly tonight keeps it up he’ll be on a ballot. He got me to thinking, how long do we have to see greatness for a player like that to be rewarded. Than I was thinking about how truly electrifying Dante Hall was.
Seems to me like too much emphasis is put the length of a career. Many times these little guys don’t last as long. Jackson is only about buck fifty so his candle might burn out quickly. What do you guys think about the time ? Time seems to be an issue for the voters considering Terrell Davis for the HOF.
I assume by ‘on the ballot’ you mean making the semifinalist or finalist round–I’m pretty sure anyone that plays a certain length of time is ‘on the ballot’? Can’t remember the requirements off hand, and too lazy to look them up right now…
As for Cribbs (or Jackson, for that matter), I think both have a lot to prove. I think pure return guys rank up there with punters to me–maybe someday we’ll see one in the HOF, but it’s gonna be awhile. The list probably starts with Brian Mitchell right now, too.
The problem with guys like Hall, Hester (and possibly Cribbs in another year or two) is that the teams always think they need to get the ball in their hands more, and start to use them in other roles–which seems to ruin their return capabilities.
And I think length of career is very important–it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Good for a year or two Hall of an Amazing Season. If a guy manages to put together a career that rivals guys in the HOF in a shorter time, he’s worthy of consideration, but I think they might find it tougher to get in. Davis is a great example of that.
Hey folks,
I did some research and want to share my findings. We’re always bringing up this name or another and I’ve never seriously considered how the HOF Voters may be considering years of play. I’ve was surprised to find out how few HOF players have a career shorter than 10 years. Apparently the length of his career is really important to the voters. Here are the stats of the Modern Era player – career beginning around 1950 (before that the WAR interrupts many careers). I hope you find interesting. :)
Offensive players in the HOF = 104 ; under 10 years of play = 7 RB, 1 QB, 4 WR, 1 TE, 2 OL Total = 14 of 104 over 60 year
Fewest years RB : Doak Walker -6yrs, Gale Sayers – 7 yrs, Earl Campbell – 8 yrs and 4 at 9 yrs including Jim Brown.
Fewest years QB : Bob Waterfield – 8 yrs and Otto Graham – 10 yrs, all others over 10 yrs.
Fewest years WR : Raymond Berry, Lynn Swann, Tom Fears, and Phil Pihos all at 9 yrs.
Fewest years TE : Kellen Winslow – 9 yrs.
Fewest years OL : C-Dwight Stevenson – 8 yrs and G-Bill Shaw (AFL) – 9 yrs.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Defensive Players in the HOF = 66 ; under 10 yrs of play = 3 DL, 2 LB and 1 DB Total of 6 out of 66
Fewest years DL : DT-Arnie Weinmeister – 6 yrs, MG- Bill Willis – 8 yrs and DE – LeRoy Selmon 9 yrs.
Fewest years LB : George Connor – 8 yrs and Dick Butkis – 9 yrs.
Fewest years DB : S – Jack Cristiansen – 8 yrs.
PK – only 1 in the HOF – Jan Stenerud – 19 yrs of play
_______________________________________________________________________________________
HOF Head Coaches
Fewest All-time yrs coached – Guy Chamberlin – 6 yrs. 1922-27 (won 4 NFL Titles ; 3 straight; two different teams : all before age of 34)
Fewest years coached in the Modern Era : John Madden and Bill Walsh each coached 10 years. Vince Lombardi coached 11 years.
Most consecutive yrs coaching one team – Tie between Tom Landry- 29 yrs. (1960-1988 Dallas Cowboys) and Curly Lambeau – 29 yrs (1921-1949 Green Bay Packers).
Most consecutive yrs coaching – Don Shula – 33 yrs (1963-69 Baltimore and 1970-1995 Miami)
Lowest winning percentage – Weeb Ewbank – 20 yrs 130-129- 7 .502
Higgest winning perscentage – Biggest Coaching Winners
UNDER 100 wins – Guy Chamberlin .784 and Vince Lombardi .738
Between 100 wins – 150 wins – John Madden .763 (103-32-7) and George Allen .712 (116-47-5)
Between 150 wins – 250 wins – Paul Brown .672 (213-104-9) and Curly Lambeau .631 (226-132-22)
How’s that for stats?? It looks like RB’s have the best shot wit the least amount of years. I guess we knew that based on risk of the position. That said I’d say Terrell Davis is looking at a huge hill to climb unless he really impressed many folks. The sooner he gets in the better for him. Now we can compare Floyd Little to others with his length of career to see how he measures up. Also these stats make iit easier to compare Coaches to see who might or might not make the grade. Many coaches have better winning percentages but Ewbanks two Titles with two different teams counted for a lot. It’s a little surprising Chuck Knox’s name hasn’t com up for the HOF more frequently. He turned the Rams into one of the most competitive teams of the 70’s and pointed the Bills in the right direction in the early 80’s.
Let me know what you think ??
OVER 250 wins – George Halas .682 (318-148-30) and Don Shula .678 (328-156-6).
EERRRRRR!!! Sorry but I didn’t realize the coaching stats were regular season only!! So beware.
Can Derrick Mason make it? I know the line for the Hall of Fame is long for WR’s, but if you see his KR/PR stats, there ridiculous. He has 849 receptions. Thats more than most people think he has. His TD total is very low, but if he can get 900-950, his chances are good. If he get 1,000 receptions, I believe he should make it. Some notable accomplishments:
10,902 receiving yards. 23rd player to hit that mark.
849 receptions.17th player to hit that mark.
5,086 kick and punt return yards total. 48th player to hit that mark.
15,991 all purpose yards. 16th player to hit that mark.
most all purpose yards in season: 2,690 yards
He needs 3 more receptions to become the first player to have 400 receptions on 2 different teams.
The stats don’t lie. He is a great player all around. I think he belongs in Canton one of these days. He is probably get in via Senior Committee.
Does Kevin Mawae have a legitimate shot at making the Hall because he has played 16 years in the league, 7 time Pro Bowl, 3 first team All Pros. He started 177 straight games.
Top 10 Jet IMO.
Kevin Mawae’s postseason profile (3/7/probably 00s) is the best of any center since Dermontti Dawson, and the best of his time period. If any center gets elected from the 00’s, it’ll probably be Mawae — and as far as I can see, there’s at least one person who played center from each decade in the HoF since the 1920’s. I’d be surprised if he’s not voted in, though he’ll probably wait a while.
Re Derrick Mason: am thinking Irving Fryar is a comparable player, and he’s not likely getting elected. More importantly, note also that Tim Brown has a ton of catches, yards, etc. and did a lot of kick returning — and he’ll likely be seen as the gold standard for this type of player. Am thinking Brown gets in the HoF after a few years wait, but not anyone else similar.
the biggest outside shot: Wes Welker. Does he have a case? Speaking of WR’s….Isaac Bruce. Will he make it? He should with 1,000 receptions, but he only Pro Bowled 4 times(should have been 5 times, 1995 season no doubt)
Whats your guys opinion?
OK, tell me who of these RB’s who played less than 10 years will make it to the HOF.
Since Little’s HOF inductee is nearly a done deal, please pick at least or more from this list players to make the HOF.
* denotes the player has less career rushing yards than Little who’s about to enter HOF.
7 yrs. –
Terrell Davis
George Rorgers
8 yrs –
Rodney Hampton
Curt Warner
Robert Smith
Don Perkins*
Neal Anderson *
Deuce McAllister*
Chuck Foreman*
Larry Brown***
9 yrs. –
Eddie George
Shaun Alexander
Chuck Muncie
Antowian Smith
Lydell Mitchell
Floyd Little (current HOF Candidate)
I forgot Philly sensation Wilbert Montgomery 9 yrs – 6,789 ,if style counts he’s in!! Classic playoff battles vs. the mighty Cowboys for a several years. He gets honorable mention but I hat 14 fumbles in his best year.
I’ll select my picks:
5 yrs – Billy Sims
The sensational Heisman Trophy and Number 1 Draft pick Billy Sims IMO lived up to his hype despite chronic knee injuries. Much like Gale Sayers his career was much too short. That said, he outgained Gale in rushing and recieving depite playing 8 fewer games for a total of only 60. I’m not sure who played for the worst team. Sims instantly brought the lowly Detroit Lions success. Sims did not return kicks as Sayers did which rightly gained him fame but I can assure doubters that Billy Sims did out juke just as many opponents in his terrific career.
7 yrs – Terrell Davis
T.D. became the definition of what a a downhill runner looked like for the current generation. He was a terrically tough runner who found that straight line and than ran recless abandonment. IMO he was a HOF runner. Some say anyone could run behind that Bronco’s line but IMO that only disrespects a great runner. They had a run of very good backs in Portis, Bell and some others but 2,000 yds in a season is beyond that. And although medictical technology probably allowed him a few more years to play, IMO his accomplishments and career ending are just as tradject as Sayers, Sims and Campbell which just left us wanting more greatness.
8 yrs – Lydell Mitchell
All I will say is Lydell was the definition of a tough guy workhorse who could pound the rock for his size. He also an equally dangerous reciever which made the Colts very dangerous. Only Chuck Foreman was considered on a par and he seemed to over shaddow Mitchell unfortunately. He really was a first of his kind to have such success in both areas. The mid-70’s was a time when old RB’s became third down backs to primarily catch the ball when they were thought not to be able to run the ball as well for ex.. Calvin Hill and Greg Pruitt. Lydell was a major part one of the most prolific Offenses in the 70’s. He’ll probably never get his due but Floyd Little can who know’s. :)
Wes Welker — way too early to say.
Isaac Bruce — one might think he belongs in, but given how strict the HoF voters are at this position, he could join deserving WRs ranging from Billy Howton to Del Shofner to Harold Jackson stuck on the outside. We’ll see what happens.
Floyd Little — it’s still early yet, and he may or may not get voted in the HoF.
Of the short career backs listed above, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if none of them get elected. Terrell Davis may have the best chance, but he’s by no means a given.
sorry, I meant to say you MUST :) pick 3 players that have the best chance to make the HOF.
bachslunch?? Brad?? Tony?? Andy?? anyone else?? bachsluch I know you just hate that LOL but do it anyway. :) Also if you can, comment on what you remember about my picks. I’m curious if you remember them as being such good players. Me being a Dolphin fan, I really have or think I have a memory of Mitchell. I absolutely despised Bert Jones but did like Roosevelt Leaks from UT. Before he ravaged his knee in college he was better than Earl Campbell which is saying a HELL of a lot !!!! IMO it’s true.
opps. bachslunch I should comment on your on your post.
Bruce certianly belongs. I would find it really hard to believe the voters not put him in the HOF someday. That would be a travesty for such a great and accomplished player.
About Wes Welker, it’s more about if the the voters respect his style of play enough . If you’re a WR it’s tough to get the call. I think too hard like it is for a Nose Tackle. Everyone has a position to play. Welker is brilliant at what he does but so many short, vanilla catches. I like that he’s tough as nails to make those catches and I get the time thing. He could play 20 years and amass many records which would be hard to ignore. I personally like the more creative, physically gifted player like Harold Jackson or Mark Clayton or Mark Duper who at their size has the skill to out run or maneuver his opponent.
I know nothing about Howton and very little about Shofner. Sadly their time has probably passed with so many 50’s and 60’s players dominating the HOF.
Josh Cribbs HOF stock just shot up so much!!!!!
I’ll second that Brad.
It tugs at the traditionalist’s heart strings to see these records go down in flames. I thought ESPN’s Tom Jackson was going to shed a tear talking about Gale Sayers and Jim Brown’s records. People really need to talk up what Cribbs is doing as he sprints by the Legend. I hope he can become more of a factor in other areas of the game besides returning. Cribbs is remarkable!!! No fluke with him.Should point out that one of Sayers great days against the 49ers who weren’t exactly creme de la creme at the time. I’m going to research their games.
Heres a good question: Who will make the HOF first: Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith, or Maurice Jones-Drew?
I believe bachslunch has the appropiate answer for this one. :)
Look at this list. NFL QB’s with at least 30,000 passing yards, 200 TD’s, 90 Wins as a starter, and a SB appearance:
Brett Favre: HOF lock
Peyton Manning: HOF lock
Tom Brady: HOF lock
Steve Young: HOFer
Jim Kelly: HOFer
Boomer Esiason
Drew Bledsoe
Johnny Unitas: HOFer
Joe Montana: HOFer
Fran Tarkenton: HOFer
Dan Marino: HOFer
John Elway: HOFer
D-McNabb is in this group as well. This shows you why he should be considered.
Brad,
To me we have to be careful when viewing certian stats as a sort of entitlement although your grouping looks pretty good. I like to also look at Pro Bowls and Ints.
IMO McNabb is already a lock plus this should be his SB winning year so that will only heighten his shoe in chances for the HOF :) Now if he’s still eligible after about 7 years of eligibilty I’ll really be scratching my head big time.
These are QB’s on my getting HOTTER everyday list! IN ORDER!!!
1. Phil Simms – what the are the voters thinking?? He has great stats – Great SB preformance and at QB he was one of the toughest SOB’s ever!! I doubt anyone ever got murdered early in his career and didn’t show some kind of damage to his game.
2. Kenny Anderson – I say Cinncinati Bengals, you say what? Yuk!! The organization has never been a consistant winner but had a narrow SB losses twice. Once with Kenny Anderson under center and probably had their best winning stretch over his time (8 of 13 years as a starter being on the plus win side) sure he had some peaks and valleys in a League that contained the Browns, Dolphins, Raiders and Steelers. QB Anderson threw a beautiful ball in a mechanical way that reminded me of Troy Aikman. Of course he threw deep many more times to the likes of HOF WR Charlie Joiner, Cris Collingsworth, Bob Trumpy and Issac Curtis. “Come On Man”!!! It was mainly their Defense that sucked in the mid’70s when they lost. It’s no accident they traded (IMO a HOF MLB) Bill Bergy to Philly improves greatly going to the SB while Cinncy stinks for a while. Anderson has waited much too long. He would be a great player for a the decade of the ’70’s who’s lacking QB representation. By the way just one more feather in his cap is the reference.com rating of 34th among QB’s since 1950.
3. Randall Cunningham – Are you kidding me? Before there was Vince Young there was this 6’4″ elusive phenom with a cannon arm in Philly called Randall Cunningham. :) He’s the original and a winner too!! 30 wins more losses which ain’t shabby!! IMO he deserves the HOF soon – not as hot as the others but should get the call under 10 years – he’s at about 3 yrs now. I’m surprise how little I hear his name. Who knows but for a missed kick he’d be a SB winning QB. Still can’t believe the Vikings lost to the Falcons when all the stars seemed aligned. Rarely has a team looked better during their regular season. Than Minny played as if one hand was tied behind their backs and still almost pulled the game out.
It’s possible Cunningham is a case for the great stats not meaning beans to the Voters? I hope not. Sometimespeople lock into this underachiever picture like Ron “Jaws” Jaworski or believe it or not Jim Plunkett who was a saior coming out of college. In Jaws case , he came up with the Rams and everyone expected a lot early on from the Polish man with the rifle arm but it took 4 or 5 years and ultimately a different team before he showed some of his promise. Than he lost the Super Bowl to a “Wildcard” Raiders team which only likely added to the negativeness around him.
Who knows if the same stigma has trouble Randall?? He started out with this super Defensive team led by a fearsome foursome D-Line which included great Reggie While and HC Buddy Ryan, the mastermind the Bears famous SB winning Defense. Seemingly a “blind man” could QB that team to SB victory or Trent Dilfer no less.. He was under tremendous pressure to preform well but didn’t do well enough. Eagles are still looking for that SB win!! LOL!!
Brad,
To me we have to be careful when viewing certian stats as a sort of entitlement although your grouping looks pretty good. I like to also look at Pro Bowls and Ints.
IMO McNabb is already a lock plus this should be his SB winning year so that will only heighten his shoe in chances for the HOF :) Now if he’s still eligible after about 7 years of eligibilty I’ll really be scratching my head big time.
These are QB’s on my getting HOTTER everyday list! IN ORDER!!!
1. Phil Simms – what the are the voters thinking?? He has great stats – Great SB preformance and at QB he was one of the toughest SOB’s ever!! I doubt anyone ever got murdered early in his career and didn’t show some kind of damage to his game.
2. Kenny Anderson – I say Cinncinati Bengals, you say what? Yuk!! The organization has never been a consistant winner but had a narrow SB losses twice. Once with Kenny Anderson under center and probably had their best winning stretch over his time (8 of 13 years as a starter being on the plus win side) sure he had some peaks and valleys in a League that contained the Browns, Dolphins, Raiders and Steelers. QB Anderson threw a beautiful ball in a mechanical way that reminded me of Troy Aikman. Of course he threw deep many more times to the likes of HOF WR Charlie Joiner, Cris Collingsworth, Bob Trumpy and Issac Curtis. “Come On Man”!!! It was mainly their Defense that sucked in the mid’70s when they lost. It’s no accident they traded (IMO a HOF MLB) Bill Bergy to Philly improves greatly going to the SB while Cinncy stinks for a while. Anderson has waited much too long. He would be a great player for a the decade of the ’70’s who’s lacking QB representation. By the way just one more feather in his cap is the reference.com rating of 34th among QB’s since 1950.
3. Randall Cunningham – Are you kidding me? Before there was Vince Young there was this 6’4″ elusive phenom with a cannon arm in Philly called Randall Cunningham. :) He’s the original and a winner too!! 30 wins more losses which ain’t shabby!! IMO he deserves the HOF soon – not as hot as the others but should get the call under 10 years – he’s at about 3 yrs now. I’m surprise how little I hear his name. Who knows but for a missed kick he’d be a SB winning QB. Still can’t believe the Vikings lost to the Falcons when all the stars seemed aligned. Rarely has a team looked better during their regular season. Than Minny played as if one hand was tied behind their backs and still almost pulled the game out.
It’s possible Cunningham is a case for the great stats not meaning beans to the Voters? I hope not. Sometimespeople lock
Why Darren Sharper is a HOFer:
He has 63 Int’s(6th all time)
He has led the NFL 3 times in Int yards with 3 different teams
He has the most Int yards in a season
He has the 2nd most Int yards all time
He has 3 seasons with 9 Ints
He made 5 Pro Bowls
He has over 900 tackles
I know its early in his career, but Asante Samuel has a case thus far. He has 2 Int titles. He has 2 Super Bowl rings. He has 7 Ints in the playoffs, 4 for TD’s!!! He has a total of 8 TD’s in the playoffs. He is getting better. He has been named to 3 Pro Bowls as well.
Andre Johnson is a HOFer so far. He is a 4 Time Pro Bowler and 2 time first Team All Pro. 2 seasons, back to back, with 1,500 receiving. I believe that is a NFL record. He also has 587 receptions in 7 seasons. TD’s are low, but look at Michael Irvin, who has 65. Plus, Andre in the beginning of his career didn’t have a good QB(David Carr). Im not trying to take anything away from Carr because he was in a tough position and he got sacked left and right. But now Andre has a legit QB (Matt Schaub) and he will put up great numbers.
Brian Dawkins is a HOFer 4/8, 6 total 1st and 2nd Team All Pro. 2000’s All Decade Team, 1,029 tackles, 21 sacks, 36 Int’s. Now, if he plays 2 more years, and he makes the Pro Bowl, could he be a first ballot HOFer?
If Randy Moss wants to give it to Terrell Owens, than Randy can pass Jerry Rice with no sweat. But the problem is…does Randy Moss want to??
He is 32 years old and he is consistent for the most part. If he wants to tie Jerry Rice’s Receiving TD title, he can do it this way:
33 years old: 11 TD’s
34 years old: 14 TD’s
35 years old: 13 TD’s
36 years old: 11 TD’s
Pretty cool right???
Brad, I don’t know about Dawkins?
IMO Dawkins doesn’t have the powerful name recognition of a Ronnie Lott or Rod Woodson. Winning some Super Bowls or being at the top of a Leaderboard would help. However he does have a lot of respect and admiration around the league for doing things the right way and being a great leader. I have no clue how that will tranfer in the Voter’s mind.
My opinion is that Moss will retire in a year or two. He has interests outside football as a Nascar truck owner. He could easily expand and turn that into a full-time venture. Those TD numbers are awful lofty for an aging WR without the dedication of Jerry Rice. If he stayed around there’s a sliver of a chance teamed up Brady it could happen. I personly think all Randy care about is topping T.O. and shutting him up. I’m rooting for Randy in what ever he does. I never thought he was quite the villian folks made him out to be especially a few years into the League.. Tame compared to others. I know I’m probably in the minority but I think Joe Buck is terrible and a big pansy. The way he called the Moss fake mooning of the Packer’s crowd was sissyfied. He went on and on, you would of thought Randy killed someone. Not a fan of Joe Buck or FOX Sports. I wouldn’t give them 2 cents for Bradshaw’s comments anymore.
His only problem is that his head isn’t always in the game. Maybe he’s thinking about fishing or race cars too much. LOL!! I think he’s turned into this really interesting guy. Can you tell I’m a fan? The only thing I hate is the team he plays for now. :) Randy, please come to Miami.
With over 200 TD’s and the prospect of leading New Orleans “Come’on Man!!”, to a huge SB win, will that make Drew Brees a HOFer?
It might lead him to Canton. But, its still too early to tell. I think if he plays like hes playing 3 years from now, than yes he is a HOFer. Is he the Saints greatest QB? IMO yes. Is he the greatest Saint of all time? tough call.
Can London Fletcher make the Hall of Fame? Hes a 9 time Pro Bowl Alternate. He has over 1,500 tackles. He never missed a game.
I put Fletcher on my 2000 All-Decade Team. One opinion I heard was not so positive but I really do appreciate London and would give him the respect. I picked him over Porter for a spot. Fletcher isn’t a big self promoter so it probably has hurt him. I would support him for the HOF. If 1 -time PB/AP John Riggins can make the HOF why not Fletcher? The Voters really opened the door with Riggins I believe.
Yeah i agree Tony P. He is a 9 time pro bowl alternate. So, if at least 1 or 2 LBs got hurt, he would be a least a 5 time Pro Bowlers.
Drew Bledsoe..HOFer?
Big numbers, big arm but not a big winner. I don’t think he was a real smart QB. Wouldn’t get my support.
Kevin Mawae retired, hall of famer?
Based on postseason honors, Kevin Mawae easily has the best numbers of his time for a center, assuming that “his time” is after Dermontti Dawson’s (which is reasonable to say): 7(3AP)/8/00s. Given this, if there’s going to be a center voted into the HoF from this time period (and there usually is at least one from each era), Mawae will likely be it.
His competition doesn’t quite measure up here:
-Tom Nalen: 2(2AP)/5/none
-Olin Kreutz: 2(1AP)/6/00s
-Jeff Saturday: 2(2AP)/4/none
-Matt Birk: 0(0AP)/6/none
-Jeff Hartings: 1(1AP)/2/none
My guess is that he’ll be the only one from this group to make it in, and will do so fairly late in his candidacy.
It’s still too early to say on Nick Mangold — he’s likely to be in the mix for the next era’s centers.
I’m a huge Kevin Mawae fan. He’s the reason why I wore number 68 in high school. Nick Mangold I think can end up with 6+ Pro Bowls in his career.
Donovan McNabb in my mind, might not make the Hall of fame. Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, and Drew Brees are legitimate first ballot hall of famers(Assuming Drew Brees plays at least another 4 years which he will mostly). McNabb might be the odd man out and I’m a McNabb fan.
What chances does these active players have?
Fred Taylor: 11,622 rushing yards. 1x Pro Bowl. 1x 2nd Team All Pro
Hines Ward: 902 receptions(12th all time), 11,064 receiving yards, and 79 total TD’s. Super Bowl MVP. 4x Pro Bowler
Darren Sharper: 63 Ints, 6th all time. 11 Int TD’s. 2000’s All Decade Team. 5x Pro Bowler. 2x 1st Team All Pro. Super Bowl Champion. Over 900 tackles.
Jason Taylor: 128.5 sacks, 10th all time. 8 Ints, 3 for TD’s. Most fumble recovery TD’s all time(6 total). 44 fumbles forced. 2006 Defensive Player of the Year. Led the NFL in sacks in 2002 with 18.5. Over 700 tackles. 6x Pro Bowler, 3x 1st Team All Pro.
Some thoughts:
-Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Brett Favre are the three QBs out of this group that have the best chances at being “first ballot,” for whatever that’s worth. Drew Brees has definitely helped his HOF case by winning a SB and having the level of career he’s got so far, and if he stays healthy and puts up a bunch more seasons at this level or slightly below, he’s likely got a good chance of being elected — but that assumes he does so. If he got hit by a bus tomorrow, I’m not so sure. Kurt Warner has been discussed to death here and elsewhere, and his career is unlike any other QB in the HoF, but he may well get in anyway. It’s hard for me to see a strong case for him given how few really great seasons he had, plus he did win only one SB, and for me his getting elected would hinge as much on intangibles and giving heavy value to his very short peak as anything else. If Donovan McNabb had 3 SB wins under his belt, he might get in as one of those HotVG QBs who got a boost because of postseason success — but he doesn’t have this at all, and I don’t think he gets elected. I also don’t see that Brees or Warner have a shot at being “first ballot” unless they come up eligible in a weak year for new candidates.
-Jason Taylor likely has a good chance of being voted in with a postseason honors profile of 3(3AP)/6/00s (which is competitive for a DL from this period), a DPoY Award, and a productive career of some length.
-Hines Ward isn’t there yet, but if he can add onto his career counting stats, he’s likely to look pretty good to the voters at the end of his career — no question that he’ll have to finish high up in career numbers to get in.
-Darren Sharper will probably find election tough at 3(2AP)/5/00s as well as being a safety, which is a position the HoF voters don’t seem to like much — and at his position he’ll also be up against Ed Reed at 5(4AP)/5/00s, Brian Dawkins at 4(4AP)/8/00s, John Lynch at 3(2AP)/9/none, and Troy Polamalu at 2(2AP)/5/00s. It will likely be hard enough for Reed and Dawkins to be voted in, and they seem like the cream of this proverbial crop.
-I don’t see Fred Taylor having much chance of being voted in. Contemporaries LaDanian Tomlinson and Edgerrin James are almost certainly getting in before he does, and it may even be touch-and-go on the latter. And Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, and Jerome Bettis overlapped his career a good bit, and all look likely to be elected. Taylor will probably be in Ottis Anderson-land looking in along with Corey Dillon, Warrick Dunn, Shaun Alexander, Jamal Lewis, and Clinton Portis.
Drew Brees is a 4 time Pro Bowler. He has 4 seasons with 4,000+ passing yards. Also has 3 seasons with 4,400+ passing yards and including a 5,000 yard season. Only Drew and Dan have ever done in a season. He has 31,502 passing yards and 208 TD’s. He led the NFL in passing TD’s , completions, attempts, yards,and completion percentage 2 times all with the Saints. He is arguably the Saints greatest player already and he’s currently playing in his 5th season.
Jason Taylor could end up with 135-140 sacks when his career is over. He already has 2 sacks with the Jets. He signed a two year deal. What can he do to be a first ballot? Super Bowl MVP possibly?
Hines Ward is a fearless player. But it’s a shame a lot of WR’s are ahead of him:
-Marvin Harrison
-Cris Carter
-Tim Brown
-Isaac Bruce
-Terrell Owens
-Andre Reed
-Randy Moss
-Torry Holt
And players who are just as good as him in my opinion:
-Jimmy Smith
-Rod Smith
-Irving Fryar
Darren Sharper has a lot of Int’s but I agree there is a too many safeties that are just as good or better. And don’t forget Adrian Wilson. He is only a 1/3, but he has 21 sacks and 25 Int’s. He already has 2 ints and 1 sack this year. He made his first 1st team all pro honor the past season. He has 2 seasons with at least 100 total tackles. In 2005 he had 8 sacks, 1 int, and 102 total tackles and didn’t even make the pro bowl.
Fred Taylor, just like Hines Ward, is behind players just like you said. Ricky Watters is ahead of Fred Taylor IMO.
Shane Lechler is currently a 5/5/00s..He could end up being a 7+/6+/00s/10s. He holds the record for yard per punt at a staggering 47.4. Second is Glenn Dobbs with 46.4 yards per punt, but he only played 4 years, but hell of a career though. Third place is Brett Kern with 46.1 yards punt per punt but he has only player 3 years. Shane is entering his 11th season,
The late great Sammy Baugh has 5 punting titles(as in Leading the NFL in avg.). Shane led the NFL in punting avg. 5 times, and he is currently holding the NFL’s highest avg. so far this season. Shane also has led the NFL in punting yards 2 times. He holds the 2nd,4th,9th best yard per punt 51.1, 49.5, 48.8 respectably.Sammy has the best single season record at 51.4 yard per punt. Shane was just 0.4 yards off of beaten the all time single season record. I’m just saying you should consider him.
” Taylor will probably be in Ottis Anderson-land looking in along with Corey Dillon, Warrick Dunn, Shaun Alexander, Jamal Lewis, and Clinton Portis.”
Just ask yourself, are any of these players the caliber of Floyd Little? LOL! Beat that horse a little more. Sorry Floyd! It just shows the number of skilled players in the game today.
It is not far to compare offense numbers of 1960s to current, game is completely different. Floyd and others should only be compared to players from their era. The reality is that RBs and WRs from the 1960s and 1970s will continue to be elected while many RBs and WRs from this era with 10,000 yards or 800 receptions will not.
Very true Paul. I think Jason Taylor is a Hall Of Famer. He is one of the most feared defenders of his time. Brian Dawkins in my opinion is a Hall Of Famer. He is a 8x Pro Bowler and 4x 1st Team All Pro (6 All Pro Teams total). Member of the 2000’s All Decade Team. He has 37 Ints, 22 sacks, 33 Forced Fumbles, and 1,048 total tackles. He has scored 4 total TD’s (2 Int TDs, 1 fumble recovery for a TD,and 1 receiving TD), He is still productive. He is definitely one of the better safeties of his time.
Ed Reed is definitely one of them. He hasn’t played nearly as many games as Brian Dawkins but still has amazing stats: 6x Pro Bowler, 4x 1st Team All Pro(6 total). He has 46 Ints, 5 sacks, 9 forced fumbles, Led NFL in Ints 2x. He has 461 total tackles. He has scored a total of 12 TDs( 6 Int TDs, 3 blocked punts for TDs, 2 fumble recovery TDs, and 1 Punt Return for a TD).
Other safeties to consider: John Lynch, Darren Sharper , and Troy Polamalu
I like Ed Reed as a sure fire HOF as well as Troy Polamalu. I think Brian Dawkins will eventually get in but might have to wait awhile. Sharper has the numbers and Lynch has the rep and the Pro bowls but I wonder about both of them because the voters seem to be so hard on letting safeties in.
I know he has no chance at all, but Lawyer Milloy’s career is pretty impressive. He has 989 solo tackles and 387 assisted tackles(1,376 total), 25 Ints, and 18 sacks all as a safety.
Ray Lewis (7/11/00s), Junior Seau (6/12/90s), and Derrick Brooks (5/11/00s) are definitely hall of fame locks. All are probably first ballots. Out of these LB’s, who is in and who is out:
Zach Thomas: 5/7/00s. 1,106 solo tackles, 627 assisted tackles (1,733 total). 20.5 sacks and 17 Int’s. More tackles than any player in currently in the Hall Of Fame. Do I think he will make Canton? Yes, eventually.
Brian Urlacher: 4/6/00s. 843 solo tackles and 252 assisted tackles (1,095 total). 38.5 sacks and 17 Int’s. He was the Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2000 and was Defensive Player of the Year in 2005. He got hurt last year, only playing one game. But this year, he seems like he is back to his old form. He already has 30 total tackles and a sack this year. The last time he got hurt was back in 2004, where he only played in 9 games. Year after that, well as you know, he went on and was named Defensive Player of the Year. He has at least 3-5 solid years left. I think he can make it , but he’ll have to be a 5+/8+…I think he can do it. We’ll see how the Hall fairs with someone like Zach.
LB’s who will one day be in the Hall Of Fame, if they keep it up:
DeMarcus Ware
Patrick Willis
Jon Beason
Folks, interesting problems come up when citing number of tackles, as it’s considered a very unreliable stat. Tread with great care when citing, and consider well the wisdom of doing so at all. See this link to an article on the subject by Rick Gosselin:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/080608dnspoinsidethenfl.141e71c8.html
It will be interesting to see what happens with the five LBs Brad Ehringer cited above regarding the HoF.
-Agreed that Ray Lewis and Junior Seau stand a great chance of being “first ballot” level HoF-ers. There’s always a chance there may be a few holdouts on Lewis being “first ballot” because of his murder arrest and subsequent plea of guilty to obstruction of justice, but if Lawrence Taylor got in right away, chances are good Lewis will as well. Off field considerations aren’t supposed to matter here, but sometimes they wrongly do anyway.
-Agree that Derrick Brooks should also get in, but am betting it won’t be on his first try.
-Am thinking Zach Thomas belongs in and am thinking he’ll likely get elected, though the wait will likely be long. Note that LBs sometimes get held to a tougher standard than other players — plus Thomas somehow strikes me as the kind of player who might undeservedly slip through the cracks (it has happened to guys like Maxie Baughan, Chuck Howley, and Robert Brazile, sorry to say). Hopefully that won’t be the case.
-Brian Urlacher surprisingly has a less good reputation despite his postseason honors profile — in fact, there was an SI article a few years ago that listed the NFL’s most over-rated players, and Urlacher was the first mentioned. He may get in anyway and I certainly wouldn’t at all mind if he does, but it may be closer on him than expected given such black marks on his playing reputation.
To add about Jason Taylor. He could end up with over 10+ sacks this year believe it or not. And he could finish his career with 145+ sacks. He still has it man. He not playing a whole lot, because the Jets have so much depth at Linebacker/D-Line. But when he plays, he plays well. Already has 3 sacks in 5 games this year. He’ll get at least 8 sacks this year, probably more. I wouldn’t call him a first ballot HOFer, but if the Jets win the Super Bowl this year or next year(which they can), That should boost his Hall Of Fame stock up.
If Ricky Williams didn’t get kicked out of the NFL, I’d say this: He would have been a Hall Of Famer. He stopped playing after the 2003 season. Didn’t play in the 2004 season, Than he played in 2005. Didn’t play in 2006. Than he played one game in 2007. He had a 1,000 yard rushing season last year. He missed 2 seasons and 15 games(played 1 game in 2007). Could have probably had at least 11,500 rushing yards now. Probably over 360 receptions and about 85+ TDs and a rushing title back in 2002.
Ricky played in Canada for part of a season until he broke I believe it was his forearm. He played well with over 600 yds. He’s had a remarkable comeback. Just look at all of Maurice Clarett’s and Marcus DuPree’s who never pan out. Or how quickly Shaun Alexander flamed out. It’s not easy for an aging running back to remain relevant.
LT has proved a lot of folks wrong including me. Who would of thought Ricky had the stuff of an LT or OJ Anderson or Franco Harris to perservere as he has thru injuries and drug suspensions and extreme scrutiny. Way to go Ricky. :) He actually has become a role model to many I believe.
Go Rangers!!!!!!!!
LT is getting closer and closer to Emmitt’s Rushing TD record. He only needs 22 to be in first. LT is a shoe in Hall of Famer. When Dwight Freeney retires, you think he will get in? His stats are not that bad. 3/5/00s. 87 sacks and counting. 37 forced fumbles and counting. Could be a 8x Pro Bowler and he has a ring.
I agree that Dwight Freeney is looking a whole lot like a future HoF-er as his career progresses. I still think it’s a little early yet to say, but yeah, 3(3AP)/5/00s is pretty darned good for a DL of the era. That’s already comparable to Jason Taylor at 3(3AP)/6/00s, Julius Peppers at 3(2AP)/5/00s, and Richard Seymour at 3(3AP)/5/00s in postseason honors, and chances are good at least a couple of these players (if not all of them) will be elected.
I know he is a return man, but Devin Hester’s stats are pretty good. 9 punt return TD’s and counting. Could end up with over 10 by the end of the season the way he is going. He is probably on his way to the Pro Bowl and at least 2nd team All Pro. But there is still more games to be played. And his WR stats aren’t too bad. He has 23 total TDs in his career. 14 are from returns alone.
I am all in support of Johnny Robinson no doubt. 6/7/60s(AFL, the better league). He was orginally an offensive player. He has three games of 100+ receiving yards. His career high in rushing yards is 93 on just 9 carries. He finished with 16 TDs in his first 2 seasons. Than he switched to Safety. 2 seasons with 10 Int’s. Led the AFL and NFL in int’s those two seasons. He finished with 57 in his career. He has 2 games with 3 Ints, 16 games with at least 2. When he gets an Int, the Chiefs are 35-1-1. 2x AFL Champion. In the 1962 AFL Championship game, he had 2 int’s. He should be inducted in Canton.
Other players from the AFL:
RB: Cookie Gilchrist-3/4/60s
RB: Abner Haynes-2/3/60s
WR: Charley Hennigan- 3/5/60s
WR: Art Powell-2/4/60s
TE: Fred Arbanas-3/5/60s
TE: Dave Kocourek-0/4/60s
T: Jim Tyrer- 6/9/60s
G: Walt Sweeney-2/9/60s
G:Bob Talamini-3/6/60s
T: Winston Hill-0/8/60s
C: Jon Morris- 1/7/60s
LB: Larry Grantham-5/5/60s
Robinson and Jerry Kramer are top of my Seniors List.
Brad’s AFL list has some omissions I can think of:
WR: Lionel Taylor- 4(4AP)/3/none
G: Ed Budde- 3(2AP)/7/allAFL
DE: Earl Faison- 4(4AP)/5/none
DT: Tom Sestak- 4(3AP)/4/allAFL
DE: Rick Jackson- 3(3AP)/3/allAFL
DT: Ernie Ladd- 3(3AP)/4/none
DT: Houston Antwine- 4(1AP)/6/allAFL
DE: Larry Eisenhauer- 4(3AP)/4/none
DT-DE: Jerry Mays- 4(2AP)/7/allAFL
DB: Dave Grayson- 5(4AP)/6/allAFL
LB: Mike Stratton- 4(3AP)/6/allAFL
That’s one heck of a DL logjam.
Of course they can’t all get in the HoF. The ones I think are the worst omissions are Jim Tyrer, Johnny Robinson, Larry Grantham, Dave Grayson, Lionel Taylor, Ed Budde, and Walt Sweeney.
I know I missed a lot. One player i would put in is Hines Ward. He might get over looked because of Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Marvin Harrison. But Hines has 2 rings and a Super Bowl MVP. Marvin is the only player who has a ring. Hines has 82 total TD’s(81 receiving, 1 rushing). He has 919 receptions, 12th all time. He . I understand 0/4/none isn’t that strong, but Hines is a very consistent player. He is a very solid blocker as a WR. If he retires end of this year, he will be in Canton.
Antonio Gates is another player i would put in. He has 67 receiving TD’s. 3/6/00s is pretty good. He will probably end up with at least 75 receiving TD’s when he retires. He is a solid TE.
If Steve Tasker is a Hall of Fame semi-finalist for 4 year, than I say Devin Hester gets a shot for the Hall Of Fame. Devin is probably the greatest returner of all time. People thought the first two seasons were a flash in the pan. He will Pro Bowl this year the way things are looking. Him and former J-E-T Leon Washington.
Go Jets!
Is Tiki Barber a hall of famer? I don’t think so because LT, C-Mart, J-Bettis, Edgerrin James, Jamal Lewis, etc have just as good stats or even better.
But one thing that would get tiki in is his receiving stats. he has 6 seasons with at least 500 receiving yards, and 8 with 50+ receptions. time will tell.
When you think of great QB’s from the 49ers, you think of Joe Montana(one of the greatest) and Steve Young( probably top 10-15). But, theres a QB from Stanford who played before them( not Frankie Albert , but how funny is that? Both from the same school). And that QB is Mr. John Brodie. Maybe he doesn’t have a Super Bowl victory or even made it, but he does have excellent stats relative to his time. 1/2/none isn’t too strong, but he lead the NFL in attempts 3 times, completions 2 times, completion percentage 2 times, passing yards 3 times, passing TD’s 2 times, and passer rating 1 time. Now, I know those are not staggering stats, but to me, he was a great QB. He has a MVP.
John Brodie indeed had a long and solid career, but there are two things to consider:
-QB is one of the most over-represented positions in the HoF, and there are several almost exact contemporaries of his at that position already in, specifically John Unitas, Bart Starr, Sonny Jurgensen, Fran Tarkenton, George Blanda (also PK), and Len Dawson. Also consider that HoF-er Fran Tarkenton overlapped Brodie’s career over more than ten years and both Y.A. Tittle, Bobby Layne, and Joe Namath did so for between 5 and 10 years. I’m hard-pressed to see that Brodie’s better than any of them except perhaps Namath, who’s a weak choice, or Blanda, who gets a huge boost as a PK.
-Brodie’s not alone in this HotVG next tier. Other solid QBs not in the HoF who overlapped his career significantly include Roman Gabriel, John Hadl, Jack Kemp, Daryle Lamonica, maybe even Norm Snead. It’s hard for me to see that Brodie’s that much better then any of them.
Either Gabriel, Brodie, or Hadl might possibly be seen as the best QB from the time not in the HoF. But then again, somebody has to be. And I’m not sure that’s enough to qualify any of these folks for HoF status.
I agree Joe Namath isn’t a strong candidate but realize what he did. He merged the AFL ans NFL into one league. When the Packers won the first 2 SBs, people thought no AFL can compete. The Baltimore Colts were an unstoppable force when they made the SB. Joe Willie guaranteed a victory and backed it up with a 16-7 win. He also is the first to throw 4,000 yards. He has 3 passing yard titles in the AFL and NFL.
Maurice Jones-Drew in 5 years, could be a Hall of Famer. In just 5 seasons, he has 59 TD’s (50 rushing, 7 receiving, and 2 Kick Returns), 8,539 all purpose yards(4,434 rushing yards, 1,922 receiving yards, 2,054 kick return yards, and 129 punt return yards). Lets say he continues his current season avg. than he would end up with 5,090 rushing yards by the end of the year. If he can get an avg, of 1,200 rushing yards for 5 seasons after that, he would end up with 11,090 rushing yards. Could end up with 80 TD’s+ by than. Time will tell.
I believe if you are part of a team that won at least 2 Super Bowls and have pretty good stats. These players I am about to talk about briefly, should be in Canton.
I would put in Donnie Shell. 3/5 is pretty good. 51 Int’s is a solid number. He was an important part of the great Steeler defenses in the 1970’s. He has 4 rings. He was part of the dynasty.
Also, I have mad respect for L.C. Greenwood. He was a vital D-Lineman for the Steelers. 2/6/70s is pretty darn impressive. He had 73 sacks unofficially, not a staggering number, but not bad nonetheless. He too has 4 rings.
Someone in the 2010 NFL Draft was compared to Reggie White. And that player is Ndamukong Suh. He is living up to the expectations so far through 7 games. He already has 21 solo tackles, 5 assists, 6.5 sacks, 1 Int for 20 yards, and one fumble recovery for a TD for 17 yards. He has at least one sack in 5 games. He has 3.5 sacks in the last 2 games. He could easily end up with 13 sacks. Probably a Pro Bowler and maybe makes an All Pro Team. I completely understand it’s very very early in his career, but he is playing superb as a rookie. Patrick Willis was the same his rookie season and look how he did since than.
Thoughts:
-Donnie Shell wouldn’t be an unreasonable HoF choice, though he’s in a big logjam (Bobby Dillon, Johnny Robinson, Jimmy Patton, Cliff Harris, Kenny Easley, Joey Browner, Leroy Butler, Steve Atwater, Deron Cherry, etc.) with other safeties, a position the HoF voters don’t seem to like very much. It’s hard to see how he stands out from the crowd here, though I think he has a very reasonable case.
-L.C. Greenwood would also be a reasonable HoF option, though it’s hard to see what differentiates him from other DEs who also belong such as Claude Humphrey and Gene Brito. They’re all at about the same level just outside the door, and I think all deserve to be enshrined. And both Shell and Greenwood may suffer a bit from the fact that a lot of 70s era Steelers are already in (this may also be a factor with a few 60s era Packers such as Jerry Kramer and Dave Robinson).
-agreed re Maurice Jones-Drew. We’ll have to see where his career ends up first. It’s still pretty early yet. A few years ago, Clinton Portis was looking like a HoF-er — if he continued to play as well as he had up to that point. Unfortunately, he got injured in 2009 and it so far doesn’t look like he has gotten back to that level. If Portis never does so, there’s no way he gets into the HoF.
-re Tiki Barber. I doubt very much that he gets elected to the HoF. Barber only played for 10 years, with about 6-7 of these being excellent. It won’t be enough.
Being on a lot of teams, does it hurt your Hall of Famer chances? General question.
Randy Moss was claimed by the Titans. Randy and T.O. are Hall Of Famers. But are they first Ballot Hall Of Famers? I’d say yes to Randy Moss. Terrell Owens has just as good stats, but Randy, IMO, is the 2nd greatest WR of all time(Jerry Rice of course number 1). Depending on how T.O. finishes his career, than I would put him first ballot. If I had one vote between Randy and Terrell, I’d vote for Randy.
I just going to say this: Devin Hester is having a good career so far. He was named to the 2000’s all Decade Team. And also he has started the 2010’s Decade with 2 Punt Return TD’s half way through the season. If he continues the way he is, he could end up being 1st Team All Pro. And he could be a good returner for some time and could be named to 2010’s All Decade Team. And could be the greatest returner of all time.
I’m going to stick with Randy Moss as a first ballot AND I’m going to include Terrell Owens. His stats are insane. 1,051 receptions, 152 total TDs (149 receiving, 3 rushing). I mean, he is on pace, if he stays healthy, he will have over 16,000 receiving yards. Think of that. WOW. That is impressive. I understand Cris Carter wasn’t a first ballot HOF. But Terrell stats are better. Not in terms of Pro Bowls, but more important, All Pros. It is harder to All Pro than it is to make the Pro Bowl. Cris is a 8 time Pro Bowler, whereas Terrell Owens is a 6x Pro Bowler. But Cris is a 2x first Team All Pro. Terrell is a 6x All Pro. 4 first team All Pros is a big difference IMO.
My prediction for the hall of fame:
Semifinalists:
QB: Ken Anderson
QB: Ken Stabler
RB: Curtis Martin
RB: Marshall Faulk
RB:Terrell Davis
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Cris Carter
WR: Andre Reed
TE: Shannon Sharpe
C: Dermontti Dawson
G: Bob Kuechenberg
T: Willie Roaf
DE: Richard Dent
DE: Chris Doleman
DE/LB: Charles Haley
LB: Kevin Greene
CB: Deion Sanders
CB: Aeneas Williams
ST/WR: Steve Tasker
I will pick Curtis Martin, Marshal Faulk, Tim Brown, Cris Carter,Andre Reed, Shannon Sharpe, Dermontti Dawson, Willie Roaf, Richard Dent, Chris Doleman, Deion Sanders, and Aeneas Williams as potential Finalists.
I think the following will make it: Marshall Faulk, Cris Carter, Shannon Sharpe, Deion Sanders, and Richard Dent.
Brad
Bob Kuechenberg and Ken Stabler are no longer on the modern era list and will need to rely on a Seniors nomination in future.
Also with 25 names on the semi-final list I would definitely add Cortez Kennedy, a finalist for the Class of 2010. I think we’ll also see Jerome Bettis, Roger Craig, Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Don Coryell, Paul Tagliabue and Art Modell to the names you mentioned in the Final 25. Craig and Coryell also made the final list in 2010.
I know. I mixed up players. I’m sorry. But, I think Alan Faneca will be in the Hall of Famer and I’m just saying that because he played for the Jets. he is 6/9/00s…He has started 136 games in a row. He has only missed 2 games in his career (198 out of 200)…That is pretty good. He has a ring with the Steelers and he’ll go in as a Steeler. He also anchored a good line with the Jets, along with other great linemen, D-Brick, Nick Mangold, Damien Woody, and Branon Moore. D’Brickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold were both drafted in the first round of the 2006 NFL Draft. They are playing great this year. We’ll see in 5-8 years, we could be talking about them being Hall of Famers (imagine that, 3 Hall of Famers on one line..It’s just like the Celtic’s with Paul Pierce, Rayl Allen, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille Oneal, and possibly Rajon Rondo. 4 Hall of Famers or maybe even 5 Hall of Famers).
Active 1st Ballot Hall Of Famers:
QB: Brett Favre. Ints are going up, as usual, but stats are too much to keep him out.
QB: Peyton Manning: Best regular season player.
QB: Tom Brady: Tom Terrific. 3x Champ. 9-2. Will win one more before he retires.
RB: LaDainian Tomlinson: Could end up with the most rushing TDs in NFL history ( needs 18). Signed a 2 year deal.
WR: Randy Moss: Probably the 2nd greatest WR of all time.
WR: Terrell Owens: Love him or hate him, He is one of the top 5 greatest WRs of all time.
TE: Tony Gonzalez: Has every TE record, for the absolute most part. One of 7 players with 1,000 receptions.
G: Alan Faneca: 6/9/00s is damn good
LB: Ray Lewis: He will probably be named to 1st Team All Pro again. So, make that 8 First Team All Pros.
CB: Champ Bailey: 3/9/00s. Great lock down corner.
S: Ed Reed: The Safety position is the toughest position to make the Hall Of Fame, besides kicker, punter, and kick and punt returners. But, he is one of the best all time. 4/6/00s. 50 Ints, 5 sacks, 100 pass defensed, Over 400 tackles, 2004 Defensive Player of the Year, Holds the record for 1st and 2nd longest Int’s in NFL history,
Active Players who will make the Hall Of Fame, but not first ballot (as of now):
QB: Drew Brees: Could be a first ballot as of now.
QB: Donovan McNabb: Consistent throughout his career. If he plays out his 5 year deal, than he could end up with somewhere around 260 TD’s. And he doesn’t throw many picks and can run.
CB: Charles Woodson: He is be a first ballot when its all said and done.
CB: Ronde Barber. Yes, Ronde Barber. I think he is impressive. His stats are good. 3/5/00s 40 Ints, 26 sacks, 1,035 tackles, 12 non Offensive TDs (7 Int’s for TDs 4 fumble recovery TD’s, 1 punt return). Won the Super Bowl.
DE/LB: Jason Taylor. He is playing good ball these days.
And I forgot Darren Sharper as a Hall Of Famer.
Good list Brad, though I’m not as confident as you on McNabb.
How close do you consider Antonio Gates (3/6/00s) and Steve Hutchinson (5/7/00s) Hutchinson in particular is coming towards the end of his career and can also add 2 more 2nd team All-Pros. I would put him in the ‘not first ballot’ list alongside Kevin Mawae (3/8/00s). Faneca is certainly Canton bound but not sure if he’s 1st ballot when you consider Randall McDaniel (7/12/90s) was only elected on his 3rd attempt. Its extremely tough for interior linemen to make it 1st ballot and a lot depends who the competition is that year but I think Larry Allen might be the only future 1st ballot interior O.Linemen for the considerable future.
A few other veteran names that might be considered HOFers by the time they retire are Richard Seymour (3/5/00s), Julius Peppers (2/5/00s), Dwight Freeney (3/5/00s) and Kevin Williams (5/5/00s). I agree with your assessment on Ed Reed and safetys. Three of the four safetys selected for the 90s decade team are still waiting for the call to Canton (Atwater, Butler, Lake). Darren Sharper (2/5/00s with 63 INTS), Brian Dawkins (4/8/00s) and Troy Polamalu (2/5/00s with 2 rings) will likely join a big logjam though hopefully by then there may be a change in voters attitude to the position.
Sure Brad, I’ll play along.
While I think your “first ballot” guys are all getting elected, am thinking OG Faneca, CB Bailey, and S Reed will wait longer than this. I see Bailey as comparable to Aeneas Williams, who didn’t even reach finalist status in his first eligible season, though it was also an admittedly tough ballot year. Agreed with boknows34 that Larry Allen is probably the only interior OL who will likely get in “first ballot” anytime in the foreseeable future. There’s always a chance WRs Moss and/or Owens might wait a year or two as well, as this is a position the HoF voters don’t like as much — there actually have been very few “first ballot” guys at this position. Same is even more true of safeties.
For your non “first ballot” players, agree that Taylor has a great chance to be elected and am thinking Brees is well on his way. Jury’s still out on McNabb, but he’s not out in left field, either. Barber is better than many remember and Woodson helped his case out a decent bit last year — and while I see a reasonable case for either, am thinking whether either gets elected may be a crap shoot. I just don’t see Sharper getting voted in, as he’s at a position the HoF voters don’t like and am thinking he’s in a pecking order behind Reed and Brian Dawkins, likely in a logjam with Troy Polamalu and John Lynch at present.
Agree with boknows34’s list of omissions above — add Steve Hutchinson, Kevin Mawae, Kevin Williams, and likely at least two more of Dwight Freeney, Richard Seymour, and Julius Peppers in sooner or later. Antonio Gates might make it as well, though there’s an outside chance he might get ignored as has so far happened to Ben Coates.
Alan Faneca has announced his retirement and will be eligible from the Class of 2016. He’ll have to wait for a while though I would expect of the interior linemen D.Dawson and L.Allen to certainly be enshrined by the time his name hits the ballot. Therefore Mawae (2015), Faneca (2016) and Hutchinson (?) would be the next interior linemen after Dawson and Allen to get serious consideration.
Roaf, Ogden, W.Jones and Pace may also all be elected (certainly the first 3 should) by the time Faneca is eligible.
”Therefore Mawae (2015), Faneca (2016) and Hutchinson (?) would be the next interior linemen after Dawson and Allen to get serious consideration.”
Forgot about Will Shields (2012) but I’m sure he’ll fall behind Willie Roaf (OT) and D.Dawson (C) next year, then Ogden (OT) and Allen (G) a year later and finally Walter Jones (OT) in 2015. By 2016 I can see Faneca (G) joining Pace (OT), Shields (G) and Mawae (C) on the ballot with eventually Steve Hutchinson (G) some day in the future. Will they cancel each other out like Carter/Brown/Reed at WR?
they need to put andre reed in next year, they just have to, or the backlog of receivers will just continue for the next several years, especially with all the lineman and running backs mixed in there with bettis and martin, and roaf, shields, ogden, allen, and dawson
I really don’t understand why neither Andre Reed, or Cris Carter or Tim Brown didn’t make it last class.
It is a numbers game Brad, too many eligible candidates, only 5 open slots each year. Give it time and they will all get in. Fact is that every year great players miss out and each year more top eligible candidates are under consideration. Many a great player has had to wait years to get elected. HOF elections have always been that way.
It is going to take several more elections to get all those OL selected and some of them may have to wait years. There are perhaps 9 to 12 top OL who are eligible now or will be in the next few years. It will take until 2020 or longer tho sort all them out!!