With the formal weeklong ceremonies and enshrinement of the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2023 only a few weeks away in Canton Ohio, the process to select the next class is already underway with recent voting by the committees for the senior and coach-contributor categories, and results released by the Hall.
The senior players who are 2024 semifinalists are:
- Ken Anderson
- Ottis Anderson
- Carl Banks
- Maxie Baughan
- Larry Brown
- Mark Clayton
- Charlie Conerly
- Roger Craig
- Henry Ellard
- Randy Gradishar
- Lester Hayes
- Chris Hinton
- Cecil Isbell
- Joe Jacoby
- Billy “White Shoes” Johnson
- Mike Kenn
- Bob Kuechenberg
- George Kunz
- Albert Lewis
- Jim Marshall
- Clay Matthews Jr.
- Steve McMichael
- Eddie Meador
- Stanley Morgan
- Tommy Nobis
- Art Powell
- Sterling Sharpe
- Steve Tasker
- Otis Taylor
- Everson Walls
- Al Wistert.
The coaches/ contributors who are 2024 semifinalists are:
- K.S. “Bud” Adams Jr.
- Roone Arledge
- C.O. Brocato
- Tom Coughlin
- Alex Gibbs
- Ralph Hay
- Mike Holmgren
- Frank “Bucko” Kilroy
- Eddie Kotal
- Robert Kraft
- Elmer Layden
- Jerry Markbreit
- Virginia McCaskey
- Rich McKay
- John McVay
- Art Modell
- Buddy Parker
- Carl Peterson
- Dan Reeves
- Art Rooney Jr.
- Marty Schottenheimer
- Jerry Seeman
- George Seifert
- Mike Shanahan
- Clark Shaughnessy
- Seymour Siwoff
- Jim Tunney
- Lloyd Wells
- John Wooten
More detailed bios for these candidates can be found at: https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2023/60-semifinalists-named-for-class-of-2024-in-senior,-coach-contributor-categories/
From these lists, the 12 senior player and 12 coach-contributors finalists will be announced on July 27th, and then 3 seniors are selected on August 15 and 1 coach-contributor on August 22nd to have their cases presented to the full PFHOF selection committee and voted on (each finalist needing 80% yes from the 50 member committee) at their meeting in early January when the Class of 2024 will elected. The official announcement of the Class of 2024 on the NFL Honors show on Thursday February 8th, 2024.
The process to select the 5 modern candidates for the Class of 204 will occur during the fall – in advance of that January 2024 selection meeting – look for posts and discussion here on those results in coming months.
But with seniors and coach-contributor semi-finalists now released, let’s start into our debates and discussions on these deserving candidates as their potential paths to Canton have started.
Loading ...
and let the discussion and debates commence… (and thanks to our hosts for quickly getting fresh new topic up)
and sorry my fault but a correction to the committee election meeting dates…(I have August dates flipped to wrong order)..here is correction…
“…From these lists, the 12 senior player and 12 coach-contributors finalists will be announced on July 27th, and then 3 seniors are selected on August 22nd and 1 coach-contributor on August 15th to have their cases presented to the full PFHOF selection committee..”
Thanks Paul …
Senior Finalist Wishlist … In Order
Wistert
Gradishar
Meador
Sharpe
Craig
Kenn
Ellard
Jacoby
Lewis
Kuechenberg
OJ Anderson
Conerly
Finalist Predictions … No Order
Gradishar
Kooch
Sharpe
K Anderson
Craig
Walls
Lewis
Meador
Baughan
Hayes
Jacoby
Tasker
Still hoping Buddy Parker is elected
I predict Kraft though … Again
Top Three Biggest Senior Snubs
Lewellen
Dilweg
Brito
Biggest Modern Snubs
Scott
Jackson
H Martin
Snubs Due To Injuries
D Anderson
Holmes/Alexander
Sestak — AFL Bias
Sorry, I meant Modern Snubs as Seniors mostly after 1970 …
I’m going to give my thoughts
How is LC Greenwood not a semi finalist again he was a six time finalist
I continue to be baffled by the lack of respect for Clint Murchison the Cowboys founder and original owner
What has Virginia McCaskey done that’s Hall of Fame worthy other than two NFC championships and a Super Bowl championship with one of the greatest teams ever with one of the greatest defenses ever I think it’s a longevity thing she just turned 100 in January
My prediction for the final 12 senior finalists are the nine holdovers and Roger Craig Joe Jacoby and Lester Hayes all three were modern era finalists
I don’t have a prediction for the final 12 coach contributor finalists thought I expect Mike Holmgren Robert Kraft Buddy Parker and Dan Reeves to be among them Holmgren Parker and Reeves were Centennial Class finalists
In case you forget here are my predictions for seniors and coach contributor
Randy Gradishar
Bob Kuechenberg
Sterling Sharpe
Robert Kraft
Mckasky might be a 100 year old birthday present by a voter(s) who had had an extra vote and no one else they thought belonged.
Remember for contributors opinions can run into negatives. Where some think that modell was a hall of famer and others less worthy of the hall than someone who once inflated the ball for a single usfl game.
This is hopefully the football equivalent of the baseball hall of fame writer giving a vote to jim Deshaies and others such votes that happen every year as a token gesture that is not actually meant as a real vote.
Similar to last year, it’s a mixed bag – lots of excellent players, some real head-scratchers and quite a few in between. Glad to see Wistert included but too bad there are no other super seniors like Verne Lewellen, Lavvie Dilweg or Ox Emerson (I’m not sold on Cecil Isbell). Also bummed that Harold Jackson, Gene Brito, Del Shofner, Billy Howton or Lemar Parrish can’t get any recognition as I think all of them are Hall-worthy and superior to quite a few names on that list. I agree that it’s strange Greenwood has been ignored especially after being a finalist so many times (in the same vein, nice that they remembered Conerly).
I’d break it down as follows:
Travesty that they didn’t get elected years ago:
Randy Gradishar
Al Wistert
Definitely Hall-worthy:
Maxie Baughan
Joe Jacoby
Mike Kenn
Bob Kuechenberg
George Kunz
Eddie Meador
A step down but still good picks:
Ken Anderson
Roger Craig
Lester Hayes
Chris Hinton
Billy White Shoes
Albert Lewis
Clay Matthews
Tommy Nobis
Steve Tasker
Sterling Sharpe
Underwhelming but I could live with it:
Ottis Anderson
Larry Brown
Charley Conerly
Henry Ellard
Stanley Morgan
Art Powell
Everson Walls
Just don’t belong in my opinion:
Carl Banks
Mark Clayton
Cecil Isbell
Jim Marshall
Steve McMichael
Otis Taylor
Admittedly, it’s kinda hard to separate some of the wide receivers, and I downgraded some great players based on career length or short peak (Larry Brown, Sharpe, Isbell etc). One thing I’ve learned since following the HOF since I was a kid is that I’m often wrong, so would be interested to hear what I’m missing on certain players.
So what’s gonna happen? If I’m choosing, its Wistert, Gradishar and probably either Baughan or Meador. I’m fairly pessimistic – last year’s first go-round with three seniors was predictably disappointing. I feel the senior committee routinely bats around .300. They’ve put in plenty of good players but it seems like for every Chuck Howley, Chris Hanburger or Jerry Kramer there are two Jim Coverts or Dick Lebeaus (not too many that I think flat-out don’t belong…but just underwhelming choices that clearly are not the best available players in the senior pool). I feel like the voters are not really doing their homework and/or are just responding to fan bases/campaigning for their preferred players that they covered (Gary Meyers did a lot to get Klecko in and was successful, and now he’s gunning for Carl Banks and Everson Walls and I wouldn’t be surprised if he helped get Ottis Anderson on this list). I’m hopeful that a wildly over-qualified player like Gradishar or Wistert will get in but I don’t think that it will happen. It’s outrageous but I have a sick feeling that Carl Banks and Steve McMichael (sentimental pick with lots of support from Chicago fans and sportswriters) will get the honors and I don’t think either of them belong. The third spot will be someone at least solid – I’ll say Sterling Sharpe.
I’m a lot less interested in the other list. Much more interested in the players and I kinda resented the move to put in more contributors (at the expense of seniors) in 2015. Definitely some deserving folks there along with some that are out of left field. I like Kilroy and Hay, for example. My money is on Kraft but it was for the past few years as well so who knows. I think most of the head coaches on the list have at least solid cases and none of them would really offend me if selected.
Good calls Jeff … sentiment if definitely helping McCaskey and McMichael but he could get to the QB, a hell of alot better than J Clowney, who everyone today thought would be the next Lawrence Taylor …
The interior positions like guard, center and defensive tackle, nose tackle still dont get enough attention. Fred Smerlas deserves his chance but Culp may be the only one elected and played mostly tackle to start his career. Hilgenberg is still waiting but Kooch should get in this year unless the new additions shake things up. Meador is the only safety and might advance into the top three as well but they may honor the queue, like most people agree.
I predicted Tasker to make the finalist list because some voters know its now or never with Hester getting elected soon, though Lewis and Ellard were great on special teams as well.
Could Clay Matthews make some headway but Banks being added to the ballot may slow his progress. Once Gradishar is elected, Baughan may move up as well but could he and Nobis cancel each other?
Wistert has a chance but I dont think he will make the Finalist list with Isbell being popular but you really never know.
We cant underestimate Ken Anderson either. The Bengals are finally a success in todays sports news and that could carry over to help him but Parrish continues to be denied and probably will wait awhile with Riley getting elected …
If one values interceptions enough to put riley in last year over parrish (who was/is not even a semi finalist), than walls is a glaring omission similar to how howley or Kramer were. His case is not a fandom push but on the importance of interceptions. If riley is head and shoulders better than parrish as the senior committee obviously thought, walls is my pick for the next defensive back that is likely to be picked by this committee. Expecting him to be one of the final 3 not to be picked this year and make it next year
Yt, I’m really lukewarm on Walls. He has some impressive components on his resume but I think Too Tall played quite a big role in his INT totals and he had a tendency to give up too many big plays. On the other hand, leading the league in picks three times is no small feat (plus, high career int total, some pro bowls, important role on a Giants super bowl team etc). I think Walls would be a better pick than Riley (lots of respect for Riley as a player and person but never could get my head around the HOF case – still find it mindboggling that Parrish gets no attention. I think he was superior to any of these guys). But, Walls has gained traction and he definitely has strong support from both some of the sportswriters and I can see him making it eventually. Objectively, though, I think there is a long list of far more deserving players.
Jeff would Bobby Boyd be one of those
For better or worse the lack of interceptions in today’s game has helped defensive backs with high interceptions numbers going back to emmitt thomas (58 interceptions) making it, than lebeau 2 years later (62 interceptions). Probably helped get Johnny Robinson in. Cliff harris is the only defensive back to make the hall as a senior since thomas who was not a interception king. Except easley (remember his 10 interception league leading year) with a short career every other pick has 50+ interceptions and are a key part to their case.
For whatever reason it seems the seniors like interceptions more than post season awards
Robert, I do like Bobby Boyd – might not be at the top of my personal wish list for the Hall but has a good case. Doesn’t seem like he’s on their radar though.
Restating that in better English
Cliff harris is the only defensive back who got the seniors pick that did not have great interception numbers since thomas made the hall.
Responding to Brian – McMichael was a great pass rusher and I guess his sack total is pretty impressive. I just wish he had more honors and maybe a longer peak? I dont know – never thought of him as a hall of famer. I was pretty irritated by Jim Covert getting in (along with Ed Sprinkle) in 2020 and I can’t help viewing McMichael through the same lens. I think Hilgenberg has the best case of any remaining member of the 85 Bears and there are dozens of players I’d take ahead of McMichael. You’re right about the interior lineman and nose tackles. I think Smerlas and Michael Dean Perry have cases (I’d take either of them over McMichael by miles).
I truly hope that Matthews and Banks kinda cancel each other out. Matthews is fine but I Baughan and Gradishar are far more deserving and I just don’t think Carl Banks has any business in the HOF…but I get the impression that some voters (NY sportswriters) have moved on from Klecko to Banks and are going full steam to get him in. That’s why I’m not going to be surprised if Banks, Walls or Ottis Anderson gets in this year. It’s dumbfounding to me but it’s that state we’re in – I feel like the seniors committee should be about getting the absolute most qualified players in each year but that isn’t really what it’s become.
I think Ken Anderson has a much stronger case than Riley did – if there was an urge to elect a long-time Bengal it’s surprising that it wasn’t the QB who won an MVP and got them to their first super bowl.
If they “respect the queue” this year, I think it’d be Gradishar, Kooch and Sharpe if I remember correctly? I’d honestly like that. That’d be a nice group. That’s why I think it won’t happen! I truly do not understand the Gradishar thing – just a dominant player and the only arguable knock is the 10 year career. He had chances as a modern candidate, a golden chance in 2020 and a good chance last year. I’m starting to think it’s just never going to happen for him, which is kind of outrageous.
Thanks for the new thread. I’ll predict the following Final 12 (although with this many candidates ties would seem more likely, therefore it might be final 13, 14, or even 15).
Gradishar
Kuechenberg
Sharpe
K. Anderson
Baughan
Meador
Nobis
Walls
Craig
Jacoby
Lewis
Wistert
I have Wistert replacing Isbell and then three relatively young additions: Jacoby (partly because I’m a homer), Craig (who I think the committee overvalues), and Lewis (who I think the committee undervalues).
Next three (in case of ties): Isbell, Hayes, and Kunz (or Kenn).
Final 6: Gradishar, Kuechenberg, Sharpe, Meador, Wistert, Lewis
Final 3: Gradishar (is nearly a lock), Kuechenberg (can’t have all again), and Meador
Given the size of the committee, the queue should swing more easily. Also, given the newness of the current system, it is difficult to make any sort of pronouncements of how the voters will act. That said, I expect Wistert to make a serious run, as the rumors are that the Hall’s leadership values the older pre-Super Bowl players. Meador still being alive hopefully helps, and frankly might give him a leg up on Sharpe who should be with us much longer. Kuechenberg is one of the most qualified guys and it seems like his time. Gradishar seems to be the universally recognized most qualified senior (like Howley, Robinson, and Kramer before him).
That said, anything can happen. Gary Meyers might pull another rabbit out of his hat getting Walls elected (INT numbers before the 1990s just won’t mean what they do today, but I digress). The committee might decide that we need a new “Best QB not in Canton” by electing Ken Anderson (although QBs are already overrepresented in the Hall). We might see a push Lewis (who I really like).
The best part is that we only have to wait a few weeks to get to the next step.
If I was a betting man, my money in Vegas would be on Gradishar, Sharpe, BobK and Kraft. Been thinking along the line since last year and heard many, including a few voters, express the same predictions.
Only uncertainty I have is whether Porters attempt to pressure the committee in electing a super senior (pre 1960) candidate pushes the 12 member committee to do so, in that case Wistert (or Isabell) could be the surprise. BUT at this point I simply don’t trust the committee enough to expect that. Frankly feel that this point (like Turney and Judge say) only chances super seniors have is if in future Hall designates a senior slot to them or (less likely) Hall decides on one last special election and appoints a panel of historians to select seniors (8 or 9??) and allow the committee to proceed with business as usual with their elections. Is like BBHOF did in early 2000s to address – what at the time – was lack of deserving Negro Baseball League players to be elected- a special class.
Without getting into the Super Seniors I think the most deserving 12 are:
Maxie Baughan
Roger Craig
Randy Gradishar
Lester Hayes
Bob Kuechenberg
Clay Matthews Jr.
Steve McMichael
Eddie Meador
Tommy Nobis
Art Powell
Sterling Sharpe
Joe Jacoby
I’ll leave the predictions for you guys. :) I’d be good with Bob K, Maxie and Eddie. I’ve softened my opinion on Meador. These guys seem like the most obvious snubs. Nobis isn’t far behind. Powell looks like a good pick from the AFL.
Of course Gradishar would be included in the next three or maybe before Bob K. but i would get Baughn and Meador in now.
Yt – Louis Wright 2/5 is one I would consider that wasn’t an Int guy with 26. Modern player Revis is going in without many Int’s . I guess he’s too obvious as a shutdown CB. I thought Wright and Parrish were a couple of the best back in the day as was HOFer Mike Haynes.
Wright is an obvious snub. An important piece along with Gradishar and later, Mecklenberg on those stout Broncos defenses. Do you think Clayton could advance further TonyP? Powell is an excellent choice but wont advance due to AFL bias …
Still hoping the tackles, Kenn and Jacoby can advance but they all may cancel each other out. It will be interesting to see what happens with Craig and if OJ Anderson or Larry Brown take votes away ?
I still support OJ Anderson though not as strongly. He’s a good story the way he finished up.
IMO Mark Clayton will advance and eventually get into the HOF on style points, plus another great WR did take away from him and I think people may be of the opinion it’s good for the HOF to have a WR who played with the most prolific passer of his time. I think that sentiment helps Sterling Sharpe though he is more clear cut. I don’t think Donald Driver quite makes it. Favre should have a WR in the HOF.
Maybe it’s not a thing just for me. LOL Elway has Shannon Sharpe and maybe Rod Smith eventually. Jim Kelly has Andre Reed. Griese has Warfield, Stabler has Fred Biletnikoff and Branch now. Namath has Don Maynard. Bradshaw has Swann and Stallworth. Sonny Jurgensen has Charley Taylor. Staubach has Pearson. Montana has Rice. Fouts has Joiner and Winslow, Young has Rice and Terrell Owens. Unitas had Berry and Mackey.
Only Bart Starr, Fran Tarkington, Len Dawson, Dan Marino and Brett Favre don’t have a receiver in the HOF attached to their name. I attached Moon to Cris Carter. I could say Starr and Dawson, while good passers were more known for the QB IQ and savvy. Tarkington was a high volume passer who got better and better. A little bit of a shame there will never be a QB- Receiver connection for him in the HOF. His best pass catchers were Paul Flatley,Bob Tucker, John Gilliam 0/4 (who no one ever talks about) and Ahmad Rashad 0/4.
Here’s a question to answer and I know here i go again lol but others were critical of his HOF induction; how did Paul Horning get into the HOF when he never had a 1,000 yd season from scrimmage? He truly was a golden boy. He even got in trouble. lol I’d add LB Dave Robinson to the Green Bay HOF head scratcher list. I can draw some parallel between Horning and Lynn Swann making a name bigger than their stats and riding the coat tails of a dynasty team. Swann was the golden boy of Southern California for USC one of their most beloved players than became for the NFL a big winner and media darling. Sound familiar? Horning did the same route but from Notre Dame. Is there anyone since that who has that potential? Maybe not a great case for HOF but has a the glory? i wonder if Andrew Luck could fit the bill. I don’t think he is in media. Will have to think about. :)
Brian, if you don’t think Powell succeeds what are your thoughts on Otis Taylor? Do we know why he didn’t play in every game he was active for a 3 year period? I’m kind of backing off his case though it doesn’t bother me if he gets in. Lots of players are like that for me. lol But if I’m honest not that many Seniors do IMO.
I think Kooch is a special case with a lower profile. I just don’t like O-Lineman not having better profiles and long careers. I don’t know about Kenn. I believe there was a period of 5 years when he was probably HOF worthy when Riggs and Andrews were running the ball and Bartkowski was leading them at QB. I just don’t know how high his level of play was for the rest of his career. I do think like Kooch the recognition late if a feather in his cap. This where you look at a like Jimbo Covert in the HOF and say why not Kenn? He really payed his dues and I suspect loved the game like a Kooch or a Clay Matthews Jr. Actually but for winning which I do regard in high esteem Kenn doesn’t appear that much different Kooch but being a Left Tackle the amount of sacks he allowed over so many losing seasons would be important to know. I’d have to know about that. He does appear to have a case.
I feel the same way TonyP …
Hornung was a great Packer but not a HOF player. He makes it because of his kicking and team success. Was the second banana runner behind Taylor and scored a lot of TDs which helps his cause but missing the 1963 season and kicking horribly in 1964, kept the Packers from challeging for more championships. We all love the Golden Boy, who scored chicks more than Joe Namath and Lombardi loved him but he was a product of that time.
Flatley and Gilliam were Tarkenton’s best receivers with Rashad coming on later. Tarkenton had a great rapport with Homer Jones in NY but his career ended in Cleveland. Had Jones stayed in NY and stayed healthy, could he have had a HOF career? Gilliam was a great deep threat but left the Vikings due to salary problems. He couldnt keep his career going with a weak Falcon offense.
I feel Otis Taylor deserves the HOF as a great weapon on a Chiefs running team but injuries hurt his career. He was clutch in postseason but Dawson couldnt always get him the ball due to double-coverage. People dont remember that he could make Cris Carter-Larry Fitzgerald, one-hand catches …
Tony P i agree with everything you said the one thing i do disagree on is your arguments about kooch and kenn sounds like a little nitpicking with those two
John Turney mentioned what you had already said Justin … Myers is making a push for Walls, Banks and possibly OJ Anderson.
I want to follow stuff on Twitter but I cant, just too much other stuff to deal with but hopefully you guys can keep me informed on leaked or rumored information …
1.I highly highly doubt that they would go down the cowboys route again with walls since they already went with Pearson (2021) Hawley (2023)
2. There is no way that Banks will get into the hall of fame ahead of baughan and gradishar who are on the ballot people would be mighty pissed mainly gradishar and Baughan supporters like yours truly.
3. There is no way anderson will make the final 12 over Roger craig although they have the same number of first and second team all pros, craig however has 2 more pro bowls (4) to Andersons two.
4. If we’re considering super seniors who started careers prior to 1960 would they be powell Meador wistert Isbell conerley
That’s all for now
I’m assuming covert made the hall for the same reason as cliff Harris the hall made an active move to get in first team all decade teams. The seniors committee loves that even more than interceptions .
The lack of separating first from second team in the recent all decade team will likely keep out someone who might have made it who has no case, but may make ones with a case the benefit of the doubt if possible that they would have been first team and give them an extra push. This is all assuming the next generation of voters keeps the same mindset.
Robert many said the same about pearson after harris.
I am suspicious that going into the room the flaws or perceived flaws in kooch sharpe and Gradishar are going to be what stops them from getting the nod. I don’t think anyone will replace them unless there will have to be a negative voice in the room. The big fight to my understanding will be for the final 3 spots.
Except gates and peppers I think the chances for those 3 are as good if not better than any modern who was on the ballot last year and remains
Very valid points yt I agree with you 100%
If the voters stick by the queue and thats a big IF with semifinalists going from 25 to 31 players this year, Walls may have his chance by 2026 but we dont know if the voters will stick with three candidates or go down to just two, or even one …
As fans and observers, we cant assume that even the three nominees for 2024 and 2025 will get elected either … Walls could advance but I doubt its this year and the three should go offense with at least two and Gradishar but like Howley, I wont believe it till I see it.
Jones and Belichick miss out bigtime
BTW I have this feeling that lewis Hayes and walls will cancel each other out and a number of wr not named sharpe will cancel each other out
The Jones Beiichick comment was meant for the other thread … About future HOF players which could include DeAndre Hopkins, if he can help the Titans with a great two years.
Gotcha Brian
If members of the committee had major flaws with BoBk, Sharpe and Gradishar, they would not have advanced to the final 6. And others 7-12 had more serious flaws. Although it’s possible a new senior (Lewis) jumps right into final 12 my prediction is that all 9 advance from 2023 election finalists into 2024 finalists, and those would be favs for 2024 with heavy advantage going to BobK, Sharpe and Gradishar. Sometimes its easy to second guess the process, start speculating about unknowns and players who made all of sudden have momentum. But if anyone was paying attention last year the selection of Howley, Kelcko, and Riley was not a surprise neither was where BobK, Sharpe and Gradishar ended up. So with last then two weeks before finalists are announced and month before finalists are selected its pretty clear that BobK, Sharpe and Gradishar are the heavy favorites (regardless of what Gary Meyers may think or be saying-and he’s just 1 of 12 voters making that selection)
6-9 this year will be very very interesting I’ll post my 6-9 later
Robert, it may sound like nitpicking because I just don’t know much about Kenn. I feel like I know about Kooch because he was a high profile player. Kenn was an imposing fellow at 6’7″ 275. He may be every bit as deserving, just never saw Atlanta play much because they stunk most of Kenn’s years. Does it sound right that HOF Tackles usually receive HOF recognition fairly soon after their careers because of their size and where they play on the end of the line?? It’s easy to judge a great one. Your QB stays upright. LOL The only LT or RT back in the day who waited a very long time I can think of are Rayfield Wright and Winston Hill. I hope Richmond Webb gets added to that list.
One could assume rightly or wrongly that LT play was down in those bad years for Atlanta. There’s some evidence looking at sack totals of 50-60 per year for a period of time. Of course sacks doesn’t tell the whole story. I suspect everyone didn’t play great which can happen when you lose a lot. There was an improvement in those numbers once a younger QB came on board in Chris Miller and the sack total was a very respectable 23 for the year of 1991 when he made the Pro Bowl and subsequently so did Kenn.
I have a hunch Kenn wasn’t consistent enough throughout his career is the reason he’s not in the HOF but is nothing more than a hunch.
Tony, I think Kenn has a good case. I didn’t see Atlanta play very often as a kid but as with so many of these guys, I learned about Kenn in part through my annual Street & Smiths plus my football card collection. I don’t know if he’s the best modern tackle out there as far as seniors go (I have a soft spot for Joe Jacoby – maybe better than Kenn at his peak but not by much, and doesn’t have the longevity…and I’d probably take George Kunz ahead of him if for no other reason than Kunz being older and having to wait longer) but I support him. I think he was a very underrated player and always wondered if he lost out on some honors by playing on bad teams. He had some great years where he ended up being overlooked for honors. I have a feeling that if he had the exact same career but with SF, the Giants, Washington etc he’d have been elected long ago.
Found a good overview of the argument for Kenn by John Turney:
https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2018/08/mike-kennnever-hall-of-fame-finalist.html
Proscout Inc, felt Kenn had a HOF type career, very fluid in protection and could get out quickly and run block. Cowboys fan or not back then, I slowly began to really admire Joe Montana and started collecting his games and anytime the Niners played Atlanta, the announcers really respected and pointed out Mike Kenn, even John Madden and had he been with the Niners or Cowboys instead, he would have racked up All-Pro votes …
I certainly remember Mike Kenn as one of the best Tackles in the early 80’s. 2 All Pro’s means he got the respect. If he’s deserving I hope he doesn’t have to wait much longer. I hope Mr. Falcon gets his due soon also. When he was healthy some say Tommy Nobis hit harder than Dick Butkus. It was a different time with injuries. He’s on the 1960’s HOF Team with only 4 years. He made quit the impression.
I think you meant quite tony but I do agree on nobis
Like I said on pfra not sold on sharpe would rather see Meador baughan or even Wistert get that third spot
With Snyder out in Washington, can the team get back to winning? Would Bruce Allen come back and will the team keep Rivera?
My last comment didnt go through …
Though I predict Kraft, I hope Buddy Parker is voted in … If another contributor, I hope its Kilroy or Kotal but doubtful …
I’d be ok with buddy parker 100% Brian if not I’d be ok with Kraft also.
Opinions on George Kunz?? Does he deserve to get into the final 12
Speaking of George kunz does anyone know why pro football reference gives him 7 pro bowls while numerous other sources give him 8?
for example rick Gosselin, the hall of very good page, and most information out there before football reference changed things all list kunz with 8 pro bowls 7 of them consecutively?
The discrepancy is the 74 season.
The only other place I remember football reference taking away a pro bowl is for john stallworth in 83 (see his hall of fame page). I remember it one other time but forget which player.
Considering that kunz was “only” a second team upi all conference for 74 a pro bowl that year likely pushes him into my top 12.
A career 1/7 is not even as close to as good as a 1/8 when if it comes from merit and at a time with only one all star game, That is voted on by the players. For offensive linemen more than other positions I go for career over peak, because if the are great with trash for a runningback or quarterback, it doesn’t means as much as if they are very good with someone to take advantage of their blocks. Every good year has more of a chance of getting someone to take advantage of their blocking.
Without spending time to actually cut down to 12 (there were around 13-14 players who I want in asap, an extra pro bowl would put kunz on this list without it I still think he belongs but doesn’t separate himself enough for me.
YT ill agree with what all you said about kunz 100% no disagreements from me in your arguements my question is who is his biggest competiton on the ballot
Senior and coach/contributors finalists (12 each) to be announced this Thursday (July 27th)
Hoping Wistert and Conerly will get their chance. Will any finalists from last year fail to advance ? If there is no new finalists, the queue will probably be set for 2024-2025.
Sorry, I meant no new finalists other than the three replacing ones …
Really want the super senior contributors more than super senior players. Hay, parker and kilroy are way better picks than the rest.
You want to know an interesting fact if and when Cecil Isbell gets in he’d have the fewest games played of any Hall of Famer
Isbell would also follow a HOF player in Herber … very rare for throwers
Off the top of my head the only back to back hof throwers I can think off was Montana Young.
In which case both sets had the best catcher in 50 years
Also Waterfield-Van Brocklin for the Rams, possibly Warner-Eli Manning for the Giants and Favre-Rodgers for GB
Brian: between wistert and conerley I have a stronger preference for wistert again just my opinion
If we want to be really cheap we can add leemans and herber for giants.
Andy P; He would be tied with Ernie Nevers with the fewest games at 54
Jim Thorpe has 52 nfl games
did not know that thanks YT
Joe guyon has 46 nfl games and fritz Pollard 49
Haha … Tuffy wasnt exactly puffy on the passing stats!
Brian : my 4-6 this year is either Anderson Baughan Meador or Baughan Craig Meador or even Anderson Baughan Wistert
I’ve settled on my 4-6 anderson Craig meador
Robert, not sure we see any of those three 4-6 variations BUT I would support any one of them
Gotcha paul thanks for the. Clarification
Jeff: I’m with you on otis taylor 100% could you please go into detail as to why your against him, I do agree on most of your don’t belong list except for marshall and walls for too many reasons
Robert, Otis Taylor was a good player but I just find his body of work a bit underwhelming. I’d like to see more honors and production out of a HOF receiver. I can kinda see a case in the sense that he was a big-play guy, had some big moments in big games, very fast etc. I think there are probably enough AFL-era Chiefs in the HOF at this point but if I could personally squeeze in one more it’d probably be Ed Budde (Jim Tyrer belongs but he’s a special case).
I think the larger problem I have is that there are just too many other good receivers that deserve it more – Billy Howton, Del Shofner and Harold Jackson come to mind….and then there’s Pete Retzlaff, Billy Wilson…even guys like Art Powell, Stanley Morgan and Gary Collins (and I’m not totally sold on those guys either). And that’s just at the receiver position! I think Taylor is just one example of what bothers me about so many names on the semi-final list: people know who he is, they’ve seen him on NFL Films, and you have either have a loud fan contingent or an influential sportswriter or two who are pushing him and you wonder if those folks have any idea that there’s a long list of more deserving players in front of him.
Jim Marshall is kind of the same for me. I can totally understand why he deserves consideration, but I just don’t see it – awesome career but I just don’t think he was good enough (but people know who he is – he was a Purple People Eater, had some famous longevity-type achievements and was on that NFL Network show highlighting the top 10 HOF snubs, which is a bit over the top). I don’t quite put Walls in the same category – I think he’s a little underwhelming/borderline and he’d be pretty low on my personal wish list, but I think his case is stronger (I think he has a much better case than Ken Riley, for example).
As always…I could be completely off-base about these guys. We all have out biases so would love to hear other perspectives.
Appreciate the feedback jeff you made a pretty convincing argument against taylor because of the backlog of more deserving senior wr’s and the fact that a more deserving one wasn’t nominated (Ed Budde)
I Really like Marshall but I can completely respect your opinion on him you have your op on marshall and so do I and I will end it there.
Never really thought that about too tall and walls until you brought that up appreciate the little nugget.
Budde is one of the 4 that I would have liked to make the ballot the other three Lemar Parrish Bobby Boyd Walt Sweeney.
Again Jeff appreciate the feedback
I don’t get Otis Taylor he is not even the best AFL Taylor receiver not in the hall of fame.
His career stats are terrible for a hall of fame candidate.
When he retired in 74 (ignoring his 75 1 game with nothing) (season stats are also ranking at retirement.
He was tied for 18th in receptions (no top seasons)
He was 15th in receiving yards (His best seasons were 15th (2nd that year) and 58th)
He was 20th in receiving touchdowns (1 top ranked season)
He was 23rd in yards/reception (best season 41st ever)
He was 21st in receiving yards per game (his best seasons were only 26th and 79th ever)
He is a 3/2 player with 1/1 coming in the afl so double the honors were given out that year. In addition remember the afl threw way more than the nfl did. All this with one of the most accurate quarterbacks ever who led the league in completion percentage both the year before taylor got there and after the year after he left.
Let’s not forget he cost the chiefs the 70 playoffs with the ben Davidson incident.
Thanks yt I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking that otis taylor is not a hall of famer and the fact that Lionel Taylor is more deserving.
BTW yt thanks for bringing up the davidson incident
Finalists should be announced within the next hour … Anyone with any news or hearing anything?
That incident with Ben Davidson-Otis Taylor didnt cost the Chiefs. It was off-setting penalties. The Chiefs failed to get the first down, where the Raiders took advantage.
The officials should have called the penalty on Davidson only, but John Madden saw Taylor attack Davidson and convinced the officials to call the offsetting penalties. I would have defended my QB as well.
Taylor could have had better numbers without the injuries but he was their main threat. This team ran the ball constantly but the plays Taylor made allowed the team to go to SB II and become the first World champion to not win their own division in 1969 …
Wow! The Finalist list is out and many new players!
Wistert … no Isbell
Craig
Powell
Lewis
McMichael
Jacoby … No Kooch!
Taylor
Only Sharpe, Baughan, Anderson, Gradishar and Meador from last year!
12 semifinalists (yea Hall remained this stage)
Seniors
Ken Anderson – Maxie Baughan – Roger Craig -Randy Gradishar -Joe Jacoby -Albert Lewis -Steve McMichael -Eddie Meador –Art Powell -Sterling Sharpe -Otis Taylor-Al Wistert
Coach-Contributor
Tom Coughlin – Mike Holmgren -Frank “Bucko” Kilroy – -Robert Kraft -Buddy Parker -Dan Reeves -Art Rooney Jr. -Marty Schottenheimer -Mike Shanahan -Clark Shaughnessy -Lloyd Wells -John Wooten
12 finalists: Gradishar, Sharpe, K. Anderson, Baughan, Meador, Craig, Jacoby, Taylor, Wistert, McMichael, Lewis, Powell.
I picked 9 of 12 (having picked Kuechenberg, Nobis, and Walls instead of McMichael, Powell, and Taylor). Of those three, I don’t feel particularly strongly about Nobis or Walls, having picked them because they were finalists last year. Floored that Kuechenberg failed to make the top 12 after being top 6 last year. I suspected there could be turnover given the large list of semifinalists and small pool of voters. But it seems odd that Kuechenberg keeps being mistreated by the voters — see above post about the numerous times he was an up/down vote away from induction only to be rejected.
Of the 12 finalists, I’d place them in the following bands:
Worthy & Likely: Gradishar, Sharpe
Worthy & Have a Chance: Meador, Baughan, Wistert, Lewis
Worthy & Unlikely: Jacoby
Borderline & Has a Chance: McMichael, Craig
I’d Be Disappointed: Anderson, Taylor, Powell
Senior Nominee Wishlist
Wistert
Gradishar
Meador
Prediction
Gradishar
Craig
Sharpe
A Shake-up possibly indeed!
If another Rooney makes this HOF, I will eat my shorts !
Time for Buddy Parker
With Anderson and Craig being the only QB-RB, could one or both get elected?
Taylor and Powell will cancel each other out.
Though I want Wistert, Jacoby could vault ahead or cancel him.
Could Lewis vault ahead of Meador?
Once Gradishar is in, Baughan should be next.
McMichael is the sentimental favorite and the only player from the interior positions.
I will go with Gradishar (100% lock), Sharpe and Wistert-with McMichael and Meador also in mix for that 3rd slot….really do not see any other serious senior contenders, and for coach-contributor: Kraft
Put Otis Taylor on the lions and no one ever mentions his name for the hall.
For a player who post season success is more important than his regular season helping cause a missed playoffs is important to note.
3 I want Baughan, Craig and Gradishar (my next 3 are in order are Powell, Wistert and sharpe) and parker for c/c
3 I would vote for Craig, Gradishar, Wistert and parker
3 I think have the best shots Gradishar, Lewis, Sharpe and kraft
Very surprised Kooch didn’t make the cut.
If it’s me, I’d take Gradishar, Wistert and Baughan (either him or Meador). I think Gradishar and Wistert are the two best players in the mix and I think there’s a pretty big gap between them and the rest of the group.
Prediction: McMichael, Otis Taylor…and hopefully the third pick will be a nice surprise but I expect someone middling on the list. Maybe Anderson (I’d say Sharpe but if I have a feeling they wouldn’t pick two receivers).
On the other list, I guess my money’s still on Kraft. I wonder about Coughlin though – don’t think he was in the mix last year and those two super bowl wins against Kraft’s team could make for interesting discussion.
Well the queue is different, maybe the same for next year as well ? If Wistert and Gradishar make it this year, a home run in my eyes, regardless of the third player …
Lewis seems hot right now, two out of three defenders would surprise me …
Brian…why do you think Roger Craig has an excellent chamce? I am beginning to hear people mention him as a real possibility with no explanation why…
Here are my thoughts
How does Bob Kuechenberg an eight time finalist and one of the top finishers last year not make it
How does Tommy Nobis not make it either
Remember what I said in the comments in the post about the Class of 2023 unless there’s historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen on the panel Al Wistert doesn’t have a chance
I’m glad Art Modell didn’t make it because Cleveland would riot if he got in
Here’s my revised predictions for seniors and coach contributor
Randy Gradishar
Joe Jacoby
Sterling Sharpe
Robert Kraft
John, I just feel Craig now has a shot making the senior list. The only running back listed and probably the last member of the 80s 49ers that is deserving, though Cross has a case as well.
I believe the Hall will go offensive with only Gradishar representing defense for the seniors.
Gradishar
Craig
Sharpe … but hoping Wistert or Jacoby get consideration as well. Lewis or McMichael are the dark horses …
Sorry, I meant Craig making the Finalist list
Sadly, I think Andy might be right about Wistert. I just don’t think there’s an interest in the distant past among these voters nor do I think they do much research. Maybe we’ll be surprised but I think it might take something like officially designating a senior slot to a super senior on a periodic basis (kind of like the baseball hall does with era committees). As for Nobis, I too am a little surprised he isn’t one of the 12. Personally I view him as kinda borderline – outstanding, but a brief career and peak….but he’s been in the mix for a while now and I read somewhere that he came really close to being one of the senior nominees more than once last decade. That would seem to give him a good chance.
I view McMichael as kind of a lock – just too much sentimentality and a race against time (and for the record, I think he ranks near the bottom of the original list).
On Craig – I think he’s inevitably going to make it whether its this year or not. That’s fine with me although there are many others I’d like to see get in ahead of him. I think if you took away the rings and his postseason/super bowl resume he wouldn’t get very far, deserving or not (Tiki Barber, for example, looks better statistically and can’t get a sniff). But I think the team he played on, the popularity, the super bowls, and a few monster achievements/records during his career makes him a shiny object for voters.
Good view on those players Jeff but had Craig not gotten injured in 1990, he would have already been voted in. After that knee injury in 1990, he truly tried to hang on and even his receiving numbers took a nosedive. Had he just maintained his healthy averages from before 1990 till his retirement, he would have easily had at least 10,000 rushing yards and 6000 receiving yards for his career. Remember too, he started slowly his first two seasons because he blocked for Wendell Tyler. A complete back that Bill Walsh trusted and without the injuries, an easy back for enshrinement.
heres the thing i see this very very wide open with any 3 selected who i think will be the three ill be honest zero idea
Justin if i had to guess you would rather have parrish as a nominee rather than anderson am i correct
Another reason Roger Craig has not made the HOF yet, is a double whammy …
Like I mentioned, he had the bad injury in 1990 that affected the team, though Montana had a great season but also that year, with the Niners in the championship game, with Montana now hurt, nose tackle Erik Howard for the Giants makes a great play, penetrating and splitting a double team block where his head hits the ball in Craig’s hands and he fumbles it to Taylor. Had the linemen neutralized Howard, the 49ers may have ran out the clock and beat Buffalo for a three-peat. Craig is still paying for that season … He left for the Raiders with Lott in 1991, George Seifert said good-bye to both players and the team missed the playoffs in 1991. Charles Haley was so pissed that the team got rid of Lott, who was like his big brother, that he forced the team to send him to Dallas where he won three more SB rings.
Craig then went to Minn, where he was a shell of his former self …
you nailed it 100% Brian on the reasons why craig isnt in the hall of fame yet
Thanks Robert …
Had Seifert kept Craig and Lott … would he have already made the Hall himself? Took a lot of balls to get rid of popular team leaders. His 1991 season was a major disappointment, though Bono rallied the team.
Robert: yes, I much prefer Parrish to Anderson. But you are implying a false equivalency just because they both were Bengals. I don’t support Anderson because QBs are already over represented in Canton, not because he was a Bengal. Someone has to be the “best QB not in Canton.” That doesn’t mean that person necessarily belongs. It means he is a classic borderline candidate. And there are already plenty of QBs in the hall. If Anderson is admitted, we start debating Roman Gabriel (I’m already dreading the Eli Manning debates). And, yes, if Anderson had won Super Bowl 16, he’d be in Canton. But he didn’t. I’ll even add that Anderson is likely a stronger candidate than Warner (who effectively got in because of four seasons…his first three and his second to last). The difference is Warner won Super Bowl 34. That said, I didn’t support him for the same reason.
In short, I’d much prefer a borderline candidate from any other position except RB (which is also over represented in Canton). Incidentally, this is my argument against Craig as well.
To respond to Brian, yea, Craig might be in Canton if he had stayed healthy in 1990, but he didn’t. Staying healthy is part of getting into Canton. If you can’t stay healthy, then your peak better have been legendary. Craig’s wasn’t. And yes, he blocked his first two years. That isn’t a reason to induct him either. It isn’t like he was playing for an incompetent coach. If Walsh thought he should be blocking, he probably should have been blocking. And yes, that fumble against the Giants hurts his chances. But it should. Not disqualifying (lots of great players make dumb mistakes), but it is part of the overall picture.
I don’t feel particularly strongly, and won’t be upset if either gets inducted eventually. They are both close, but for me, fall short. That said, I could be (and often am) wrong.
I felt bad that Steve Tasker didnt get his chance to make the finals. Billy Johnson didnt advance as well and once Hester is elected, it may be over for them. We will see. I predicted eight of the twelve finalists but would have liked Conerly beating out Anderson and adding to his collection of finalist nominations. He is snakebit like Kooch. Imagine what Kuechenberg’s family is going through? They probably thought the queue would be maintained like everybody else. Sorry TonyP …
If Powell were to get elected, I would have no problem with it because Sharpe will eventually get in, if not this year but disappointed Ellard didnt get his chance. Imagine if he had Fouts or Marino throwing to him? With the Rams early, it was all about Eric Dickerson, though Ellard was an excellent returner as well. Also disappointed Mike Kenn didnt advance but maybe if Jacoby gets elected, it helps him for the future?
Can’t get everyone in the final 12.
I’d be happy with any of the following being elected: Gradishar, Sharpe, Wistert, Jacoby, Meador, Baughan, Lewis. I would understand but be ambivalent with the following: McMichael, Craig. That seems like a pretty high hit rate compared to prior years.
Tbh justin your nitpicking just a bit on anderson again it’s getting stale
Robert: perhaps. Was just trying to answer your question.
Besides their cases I want wistert because it may lead to dilwig etc.
And i strongly dont want Lewis because I don’t like the idea of seniors getting in the first year of eligibility after being rejected the year before sets a bad precedent that will make it more difficult for true seniors. Mcmichael if Als is giving him votes from people who dont think he is worthy. It is one thing to rush it for someone who is sick over a dead man, but if mcmichael is picked for sympathetic reasons it is not like all gurenteed that the senior who mcmichael replaced may never live to see his induction.
Btw there is a lot of talk about imitating the era committees in baseball. Those committees were designed to make it easier for just off the ballot people to make it. They were designed to hurt the baseball equivalent of the super seniors with the new era committee would have put majority of those on this years senior ballot together with 1800s baseball playets and putting people still on the modern ballot together with someone like al lewis
If Lewis gets voted in YT, unfortunately, it may start a trend because these rejected modern candidates may get more voting arguments, conjecture and exposure than the rest of the senior candidates. With Lewis, he just got discussed in Feb but was rejected due to Barber and Revis.
We will see if that scrutiny carries over into September but if it works for him, maybe it can help others like Eric Allen, Tom Nalen, Richmond Webb? Steve Wisniewski, Leslie O’Neal and other last minute hopefuls ?
Lewis may have been a very unique case-to have advanced to final 10 round (so very close to election) for modern class of 2023…I am not sure Eric Allen, Tom Nalen, Richmond Webb? Steve Wisniewski, Leslie O’Neal and others would benefit in the same way. In fact the lesson that the voters really need to take from Lewis case is NOT wait until a modern candidate reaches 20th and final year on ballot to support their case, as it still creates much uncertainty about timing of eventual election as senior. By advancing D Woodson as modern finalist for class of 2023 (still has five more years as modern candidate) is better approach to signal their support for an eventual modern election.
question is how will these modern candidates fair in the coming elections as their time as modern candidates is quickly slipping away, especially those that not not yet even been modern semi-finalist???
PFHOF last Year as Modern Candidate
2024 (1999) Tim McDonald, Merton Hanks, Nate Newton, Kevin Glover, Daryl Johnston, Leslie O’Neal
2025 (2000) Andre Rison, Ken Norton Jr., Clyde Simmons, Eddie Murray, Irving Fryar, Bryce Paup, Mark Schlereth (G/C), Ben Coates, Neil Smith, Cornelius Bennett
2026 (2001) Steve Wisniewski, Carnell Lake, Mark Stepnoski, Randall Cunningham, Erik Williams, Eric Allen, Ricky Watters
2027 (2002) Lomas Brown, Herman Moore, Eric Metcalf, Levon Kirkland, Richmond Webb, Hardy Nickerson
2028 (2003) Jessie Armstead, Wesley Walls, Brian Mitchell, Michael Bates, Dana Stubblefield, Larry Centers, Darren Woodson
Thanks Paul … we will see how many of these players influence future senior nominations …
Out of those players listed by Paul, I thought these are the ones that would have been enshrined already: Cornelius Bennett, Steve Wisniewski, Ricky Watters, Richmond Webb and Darren Woodson. I only see Woodson now as getting in by the initial voting process. I think the rest of them wind up in a very, very deep Senior pool. I’m not sure when he comes off the ballot but this is most likely the only way Rodney Harrison is getting in as well.
That for me is why Jacoby, Kenn and Kunz need to get in because Wisniewski and Webb might get voted in as soon as they hit the senior swamp, though as a guard, Wiz still may wait … I think Eric Allen and Leslie O’Neal could shake things up as well.
ok justin thats good enough for me i can agree with you there 100%
Now then here are two possible groups of three seniors for this year which one do you like Baughan Gradishar Wistert or Gradishar Meador Wistert
Watters has been recent semi-finalist so I can see his case advancing for possible election (needs to do so before Gore and AP hit ballot), I see potential for both Webb and SteveW but voters need to get them on semi-finalist lists ASAP. Rodney Harrison is also recent semi-finalist and has several more years on modern ballot so plenty of time to move along process (especially once Woodson is elected). 2024 is O’Neals last year on modern ballot and with fellow pass rushers Allen Freeney and Peppers as finalists I don’t see how he gets in class of 2024.
And let’s not foresee a quick election for any modern who falls into the Seniors pool..ask how that has worked out for BobK, Jacoby, Matthews Jr, Everson Walls…Lewis could be a noted exception but does not mean others will find an easy path to election as seniors.
New seniors committee, 3 members makes it easier to put in modern seniors. Lack of rotation means that pet candidates (which are probably older) are going to get shafted for more mainstream ones (newer ones).
I’m sorry, I never seriously thought of Steve McMichael as a Hall of Famer. I’m a Bears fan, thinking of Mongo and his family through such a difficult time, but looking from an objective and not an emotional standpoint, he’d be there with Jimbo Covert as a mistake.
I’ve never seen him make it this far in the Senior pool. Two Pro Bowls, two All-Pro seasons is part of a nice career but not a Hall of Fame career.
Can’t we honor and celebrate Mongo’s life and career in some other way, not just push a case that most likely never makes it this far if not for his devastating fight against ALS?
I hope Mongo is getting all the care and comfort he needs. That said, if there’s a member of the 1985 Bears not yet in Canton who arguably should be, it’s Jay Hilgenberg.
Corey: I think this is the furthest McMichael goes in the balloting in my balloting I have him being eliminated in the cut down from 12 to 6, BTW which three seniors would you pick
Oh, that’s an easy one. Meador, Baughan and Gradishar would be my picks.
If sentiment helps carry McMichael into the HOF, it may also close the door on Hilgenberg and Marshall. With McMichael, it could be six Bears enshrined, which is alot for a one-time champion.
Would the same not apply for the Chiefs being a one-time champion, too, or is their AFL success also counted?
As far as I’m concerned, induct Hilgenberg and move on.
Youre right Corey, fatigue towards the Chiefs made Robinson and Culp wait and they should have won more championships despite going to two SBs.
I still get the feeling McMichael is getting in though he may struggle until the induction.
I am now believing it will be Gradishar, McMichael, Sharpe …
Willing to make strong prediction that McMichael not getting elected this class
I wrote Gosselin an email on Super Bowl Sunday this year. I’m omitting the introductory phase of the email.
“It is my belief that the Senior Committee has selected some outstanding candidates for enshrinement who eventually have been inducted ever since I increased my interest on this topic. Chris Hanburger, Mick Tingelhoff, Jerry Kramer, Robert Brazile, Johnny Robinson and now most recently Chuck Howley have all been top of the line nominations by the committee since 2010. Les Richter, Jack Butler, Ray Guy, Dick Stanfel, Kenny Easley and Cliff Branch have also been very excellent choices.
My biggest times of the year I get interested in the senior process occur in August, when candidates are nominated, and February, when nominees become elected, and a job well done to you and your fellow voters on getting Chuck Howley finally inducted.
It is my hope that you will continue in this trend with the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2024, and I would like to nominate Maxie Baughan for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and as one of the three senior nominees for next year’s class. I also am looking to write to the Hall of Fame if I understand that is the more proper outlet to nominate Mr. Baughan.
I am aware of the article you wrote in September, titled “Canton’s Most Glaring (And Forgotten) Omissions.” I am pleased to know you are an advocate of Maxie Baughan’s case.
As I sit here in the hours counting down the kickoff to the Super Bowl, in what could potentially be another Eagles championship, I not only hearken back to Super Bowl LII, but also to the 1960 NFL Champions before the Super Bowl era. The fact that Maxie Baughan was a starter and a Pro Bowler for an NFL Championship team his rookie year only set the tone in what was to come.
And the Pro Bowl in those days, as you know, was selected by the players and coaches. Nine times in the 1960s was Maxie Baughan judged by his peers as worthy of such a nod, be it in Philadelphia or in Los Angeles.
Somehow, however, as you point out in your article, Maxie Baughan was not selected to the All-Decade Team of the 1960s, in spite of the aforementioned fact.
It is my understanding that the committee has placed a high value on All-Decade selections, which I hope helps the case of another deserving former Los Angeles Ram in Eddie Meador. As I have gone back and studied All-Decade selections through the years, I ask myself of players who were overlooked for All-Decade.
look at Larry Morris, who was never selected to a Pro Bowl or All-Pro team in his career, make it, while Maxie Baughan, an NFL Champion like Morris, made it nine times, including as someone who made an impact as a rookie during that championship season.
Admittedly, Maxie Baughan, Eddie Meador and other senior enshrinees/candidates from that era were before my time. But I have an interest, a fascination, if you will, with that timeframe. A lot of the players I grew up watching are being enshrined right now. I remember what you told me many years ago that if someone belongs, they will eventually get there, and you were right about Johnny Robinson.
So, too, do I think the likes of Devin Hester, Torry Holt, Reggie Wayne and Andre Johnson will eventually be enshrined, so it’s not something for me to be hung up on with only five spots and most eventually being elected anyway.
That’s a big reason why I care more about the senior pool and its candidates. While it’s nice the pool has extra slots, it’s still fewer slots than the modern era. Furthermore, these men are on more borrowed time. Maxie Baughan will turn 85 in August, Eddie Meador will be 86 in August. I look at other Canton snubs like Billy Howton, who will turn 93 in July, while Jim Ray Smith will turn 91 towards the end of this month.
I have seen too many times where worthy candidates have not lived to see their enshrinement. I look at inductees who have passed away in the last 10 years in Bobby Dillon, Winston Hill and Cliff Branch, three players who should have been inducted many years ago, who couldn’t be able to don that gold jacket or to give their overdue speeches in Canton for they were no longer with us. Jack Butler passed away less than a year after his enshrinement.
I look at two players in the senior pool whom I am a big proponent of in Al Wistert, whose name I used to call for for many years, as well as Del Shofner, a five-time Pro Bowler, five-time First-Team All Pro and All-Decade member who have since passed on. As you know, Mr. Wistert was a Centennial finalist in 2020, but he ultimately was not selected. He passed away in 2016, while Del Shofner passed away in 2020. Should either of these men ever receive their due, it will be a posthumous honor.
On top of that, think of some of the emotional, the poignant, Hall of Fame moments. Gene Hickerson was rolled out in a wheelchair and could not accept his honor properly. I was on the verge of tears in my eyes last August when I read an article about Chuck Howley’s nomination, only for him in his late-stage dementia to not process his nomination when told by his own son. If he cannot give a speech, I am hoping at the very least he’ll be sporting his gold jacket in August, not passing away before his enshrinement like Pat Bowlen did.
I think we very well could see Maxie Baughan as a future Canton inductee. The thing is that I do not want what happened to Gene Hickerson, what has happened to Chuck Howley, to happen to Maxie Baughan. I want him to give a speech before that August weekend in Canton, Ohio, just like Jerry Kramer finally did, just like Johnny Robinson’s pre-recorded video speech. If somebody deserves to be enshrined, so too do they deserve to live to see enshrinement.
The committee has a tough job with a lot of names, as the senior pool has become an abyss. You have limited slots, people trying to reach you every which way with their candidate(s) of choice. So, it isn’t easy, and it doesn’t help when you have people taking to social media to voice their displeasure about your selections. The committee will inevitably receive negative feedback in August after it has made its nominations.
When you convene, however, it is my hoping that you will lobby on Maxie Baughan’s behalf to your fellow senior voters, and if I could say anything to them, it would be to convey the same points to them as I have outlined to you in this letter, and my hope that you will take these points into consideration come August.
My best wishes to you. Thank you for your time.”
Gosselin thanked me for being interested in the process, told me Meador and Baughan are high on his list, while Del Shofner and George Kunz deserve discussion. He wishes there was 13 senior slots instead of three.
I said on Twitter not that long ago that it’s better to induct someone undeserving than to omit someone who is deserving. If the committee nominates Mongo, but Meador and/or Baughan are also nominated, I’ll take it.
“To respond to Brian, yea, Craig might be in Canton if he had stayed healthy in 1990, but he didn’t. Staying healthy is part of getting into Canton. If you can’t stay healthy, then your peak better have been legendary. Craig’s wasn’t. And yes, he blocked his first two years. That isn’t a reason to induct him either. It isn’t like he was playing for an incompetent coach. If Walsh thought he should be blocking, he probably should have been blocking. And yes, that fumble against the Giants hurts his chances. But it should. Not disqualifying (lots of great players make dumb mistakes), but it is part of the overall picture.”
I have to disagree here. No one player should be inducted into any sport’s Hall of Fame because of one moment or game (Bill Mazeroski, Jack Morris), nobody should be kept out of it because of one play.
How would you like it if you were a professional athlete and you did things that gives you appeal as a Hall of Fame worthy candidate but a single play in your career cancels all of that out?
I’m pleasantly surprised Jackie Smith wasn’t omitted from Canton for dropping his wide open touchdown in Super Bowl XIII.
People used to explain Andre Reed’s omission because of Scott Norwood’s missed kick (something that was out of Reed’s control at that point).
Roger Craig was the first running back to rush and receive for 1,000 yards in a season. He scored three touchdowns in Super Bowl XIX, obviously an important contributor to a dynasty and not just playing on one. He was Offensive Player of the Year, he was All-Decade, all good stuff that should be weighed in for someone’s candidacy.
Craig is not at the very top of my Senior wishlist, but would support his induction. And certainly a single play, and with sports being imperfect and athletes being human, shouldn’t define him. There isn’t a Jim Tyrer/Darren Sharper situation with Roger Craig.
I’m the king of off base Jeff! Oh fun, a don’t belong list. lol
Definitely do belong.
Maxie Baughan
Eddie Meador
Bob Kuechenberg
Randy Gradishar
Roger Craig
Lester Hayes
Yes – underrated
Steve McMichael – a very active DT with more sacks the Buck Buchanan and Mean Joe Greene.
Clay Matthews Jr. – also super active. Look at the tackles for an Outside Linebacker. And all those sacks!
Yes – if considering shorter number of games
Tommy Nobis
Sterling Sharpe
George Kunz
Art Powell
Larry Brown ?? – A mostly deaf RB who literally gave up his body for the game. His knee was washed up after his 1972 MVP season. A great running back but if you open the door for him then don’t you need to for other great RB’s like Billy Sims and William Andrews who had HOF talent? Brown wasn’t a sensational Gale Sayers type runner so I don’t see him making the HOF but he was sensational in his effort. If he did it would be a great story! I often wonder what would have happened if he had 100 plus yards and a couple TD’s in defeating the undefeated Miami Dolphins in Super Bowl? Would he be in the HOF long ago?
Players who are close but I’m firm no they don’t deserve HOF are : Ken Anderson, Everson Walls , Henry Ellard.
And not just no but hell no! I’m sure they are HOVG.
Carl Banks
Jim Marshall
Stanley Morgan – For most of his career he was nothing more than a deep threat just a little better than Willie Gault. If they want to put a speedster WR in the HOF they can start with Harold Jackson! Mel Gray was a better football player than Morgan IMO.
These are contributors I support in order:
Tom Coughlin
Buddy Parker
Art Modell
Robert Kraft
Dan Reeves
Marty Schottenheimer
Roone Arledge
Mike Holmgren
Art Rooney Jr.
Jim Tunney
Jerry Markbreit
Carl Peterson
In what universe tony p do you not support anderson I’m getting fed up with the disrespect
Haha … Morgan didnt make the finalist list but he was better than Willie Gault. Both dropped passes but Morgan was more durable and reliable, keeping his speed throughout. I agree with you TonyP on Harold Jackson.
Great endorsement for Baughan, Corey.
Can he beat out Gradishar? I feel one will follow the other next year …
I dont have strong disagreement with any of the 12 finalists but believe these four are home runs either way …
Wistert
Gradishar
Jacoby
Meador
Whether he is deserving or not, we cant sleep on Ken Anderson. He has a great chance, though it would seem weird for two Bengals to get elected in a row after many years of only having one in Munoz. Willie Anderson as a modern, could possibly make it three in a row, which would be unbelievable, which is why I dont think it will happen. With either, or both Andersons’ getting voted in, plus the upcoming season for Burrow and the team, ecstatic times to be a fan indeed … In many people’s eyes, Anderson is the best QB to never make the HOF …
Robert, it is not disrespect. Ken Anderson was a good QB and at times very good to excellent but I have never supported him. I have been consistent since 2008 on this site. He fell too far off a cliff for me over a four year period losing his confidence as his team became a loser. No doubt he suffered without the tutelage of Bill Walsh which left a void. It wasn’t until a serious minded Head Coach like Forrest Greg brought in the excellent mind of Lindy Infante that Anderson was able to resurrect his career having a couple excellent years. But to me Anderson comes up just short of being a HOF player. Not in the same way but also Jim Plunkett but he won SB’s. Too much inconsistency for a HOF QB in my book. Sorry but Ken Anderson is a QB who needed to win it all IMO and than I would take him more seriously.
There was a time when I wasn’t alone in that belief. :) People IMO like with other players get squishy over time because their memories are getting older, the player’s are getting older, maybe he’s a nice guy and other players speak up for him. All of that wears you down. lol The best QB not in the HOF stuff wasn’t important until more recently and who cares. LOL I can say a lot of best not in the HOF it doesn’t change facts . People start to get on the bandwagon some who have no real clue or they are not remembering their objectivity. If Anderson makes it, fine I get it. There are a lot of players we have to accept not agreeing. I think many people felt that way about Kenny Stabler. I remember when he was the best QB not in the HOF. :) After Anderson we’ll have Joe Theismann or Phil Simms ect.. lol I can see Phillip Rivers being that guy some day.
Yeah, Brian when I read what i said about Willie Gault I did a double take. LOL He ‘s a little further from Morgan’s ability and I should have made clearer. But you got the gist that he was a speedster without a lot of polish. No doubt Morgan probably improved his craft but that’s how I remember him when Steve Grogan threw the ball to him.
No problem TonyP, and I agree with your accessment of Ken Anderson. There is no disrespect from any of us … we all have strong opinions on this site, thats what makes it great …
As a passer and athlete, Anderson has just as much a case as throwers like Jurgensen, Namath, Fouts and Moon, though Marino won more than any of them, with Namath winning an AFL and SB championship.
Anderson has a 91-81 overall starting record which is slightly over .500 but winning as well. I am okay whether he makes the HOF or not. If Moon can get in with a losing, starting record, Anderson can too but what hurts him to me, is his lack of big game wins which I have mentioned before.
His only two postseason wins were taking the Bengals to the SB, beating Buffalo and SD. He is 0-3 in his other postseason games and could have led his team to division titles in 75’76’ and 77′ had his team beaten the Steelers(75-76) Raiders(76) and Oilers(77) yet they couldnt get it done. The Steelers and Raiders were great teams but you dont become the best without beating the best.
Had Bill Walsh stayed in Cincinatti as HC instead of Bill Johnson in 1976, Anderson would probably already be in the HOF but injuries and the team bringing in Jack “Throwin Samoan” Thompson, affected Anderson’s confidence like TonyP said, until Infante helped revitalize his career.
After losing in the postseason in 1982, Anderson was set to have another strong year in 1983 but injuries affected him for good with Esiason ready to take over by 1985. Whats ironic is the Bengals had a strong defense in 1983 but Anderson couldnt take advantage of it.
He has a case anyway you look at it but other than Conerly, he is the best QB not in the HOF and we will see if he gets voted in because according to Clark Judge’s interview with Hall president Jim Porter, the
chances of maintaining the three senior nominations going into 2026 is a strong possibility, with a possible super-senior candidate as part of the three nominations.
Sorry, 0-4 in postseason games other than beating Buffalo and SD in 1981/82. I didnt mention the SB like everyone else.
“Great endorsement for Baughan, Corey.
Can he beat out Gradishar? I feel one will follow the other next year …”
Thanks. I think both should be nominated this year.
I again want to bring up the candidacy of Daryle Lamonica, which seems to get ignored.
– All-Time AFL Team
– Three-Time AFL Champion, Championship MVP in 1967
– Two-Time AFL MVP
– First-Team All AFL Twice
– Three-Time AFL All Star
– Two-Time leader in AFL passing touchdowns
– One-Time AFL Passing Yards Leader
– One-Time co-led the AFL in rushing touchdowns despite being a quarterback.
I’ve seen people clamor for Anderson, I’ve seen people clamor for Plunkett. Not only does Lamonica have a much stronger case than Plunkett, he should be getting the same kind of love Anderson gets.
Counting postseason, Ken Anderson’s starting record is 93-85 … not the best pct wise but better than other HOF QBs.
Lamonica has a great starting record but injuries in the 69 and 70 AFL/AFC championship games losses, hurts his case.
Others believe he just wasnt a long enough starter with six seasons.
Gabriel of course was a winner who rarely threw interceptions but was inconsistent before and after his run of good seasons with the Rams from 1966-1971. Very close to being a two-time MVP …
It wont be long before everyone is commenting again on Eli Manning and Philip Rivers, though I say no to both. Eli was clutch in championship games like Plunkett but had too inconsistent a career.
Rivers could throw but couldnt take postseason advantage of teams loaded with talent …
‘Lamonica has a great starting record but injuries in the 69 and 70 AFL/AFC championship games losses, hurts his case.
Others believe he just wasnt a long enough starter with six seasons.’
Isn’t that a little ridiculous? Never mind what he actually accomplished, but because he was hurt a couple of big games (beyond his control) is enough to keep him out of Canton in spite of everything he did in such a short time?
He might not have started a long time, but it’s hard to argue with the results when he did start.
Furthermore, he started longer than Isbell’s entire career, and Isbell has more traction.
Ridiculous or not, he didnt win a SB or has made the HOF. There is a bias towards the AFL and Lamonica is being punished for it.
His winning pct alone gives him a case but with only six seasons as starter, harder for him to get traction. I feel Isbell didnt play long enough, especially following a passer who made the HOF in Herber …
“buzz” regarding class of 2024 senior/coach-contributor elections (Aug 22nd and Aug 15th), I picked up while in Canton this past weekend for class of 2023 enshrinement-again just speculation…..
– Kraft is the leading contender for coach-contributor with some push for Buddy Parker and Mike Shanahan, but by far Kraft is favorite to secure finalist slot
– Gradishar is pretty close to a lock, next would be Sharpe..then its a somewhat open field with Wistert, Jacoby, Lewis and McMichael..possible other wildcards in Mentor and Baughan
Given that Porter indicated in EyeTest for Two interview last week his support for continuing 3 seniors per year past 2025 and designating 1 slot each year for super senior/pre 1960 player-note those changes still need to be presented to and approved by Hall Board….
There is movement towards electing Wistert…but hard to predict if he has enough support across the 12 senior committee members, most are not familiar with his career BUT getting him the room to be presented and discussed is a huge step as resume is strong and great presentation could push him to election—dark horse candidate to be aware of.
Lewis will clearly have support given that all the committee members heard his case and debate just 8 months ago as modern candidate finalist..that really helps his senior case BUT there will be some voters (how many? who knows??) that think its premature to elect him over other very deserving seniors who have waited longer….
which brings us to Jacoby as a player who appears to getting late push..could very well end up in the final 6.. but enough support to be selected for 2024 seems uncertain…
And finally we have Steve McMichael, whose family friends teammates and supporters are making a huge public (and behind the scenes) puish to select him while he is still alive as be battles ALS..emotions and sympathy are powerful motivators and could very well come into play here BUT there are some voters who don’t think that justifies electing him ahead of others with strong resumes waiting longer-sense is he may make final 6 yet not enough support to be among 3 seniors selected on Aug 22nd.
So that could result in Kraft, Gradishar, Sharpe and Wistert BUT that 3rd and final senior slot is wideopen and as we know its all very unpredictable, hard to get all 4 selections correct as 12 strong voices in the room and opinions leave us to guess only as no way to really know how all the committee members feel going into the election and meeting, plus how presentations and debates play out on Aug 22nd
Getting in Wistert would be great but I still wonder if side deals could be going on amongst NFC North writer-voters, to put both McMichael and Sharpe in?
It might not be like that but you never know? I still believe two nominees will be on offense …
I don’t think with 12 voters on committee such “side deals” are easy to pull off (was once very common when only 5 rotating voters made seniors selection in past)..and really doubt NFC north voters can pull off such a move. nor do they think of division affiliations–seems very unlikely partnership to emerge..one needs to be careful in imaging the “politics” that may play out as way too many possibilities for coalitions-most won’t exist.
More likely are attempts to have representations across defense/offense, positions, and eras (and perhaps geography), simply read the “tea leaves” here folks….. Gradishar YES, Sharpe VERY POSSIBLE, Wistert WILDCARD with Lewis/McMichael/Jacoby/Meador/Baughan in mix for 3rd slot.. thats very likely how seniors will play out on 22nd.
I think I know why Roger Craig isn’t in Canton he appears to have been overshadowed by Joe Montana and Jerry Rice plus his rushing stats aren’t that great now I will admit Roger Craig was no Walter Payton he’s below 10000 yards which show you how much the 49ers relied on Jerry Rice
Haha … your “tea leaves” still contain eight players for three spots! Lets hope the first three are correct … A possible Home Run!
Youre right Andy … but with over 4000 yards receiving with the Niners, his versatility was outstanding. Walsh had Craig blocking his first two seasons as a fullback because the halfback, Wendall Tyler, had more quickness and experience and Craig still ran well when he got his chances.
Walsh admitted he had no idea how well Craig could catch the ball till he joined the team. A perfect outlet for Montana any time the pocket collapsed but he could also run routes and beat the best linebackers in coverage. Had he never had the knee injury in 1990, he would have easily been voted in.
People dont remember this, but Craig started a workout routine that amazed his teammates. It was nearly as intense as Walter Payton’s but when young Jerry Rice tried it, he couldnt keep up. From that day forward, Rice was not only determined to stay with Craig’s regimen, but surpass it with his own. Nobody in years since, has out-worked Jerry Rice …
If you would like me to read the tea leaves closer it would be Gradishar Sharpe Wistert
Paul, I will gladly buy those three nominees for a dollar … Ha Ha
*Big RoboCop fan … the first movie
Brian, i agree with your analysis of Ken Anderson. He was a very talented player. In a different decade where there wasn’t such a premium put on winning the SB at the QB position he might be in already. IMO a guy like him would have great stats in today’s game. Every bit as good a Phillip Rivers who I think will make it. He had the misfortune of playing in a division with the dominate Steelers were he didn’t shine quite as bright as he may have .
If I’m honest about Roger Craig I don’t think his statistics equal HOFer. I said that originally but with his achievement of first 1,000 -1,000 and Super Bowls and his fit into a great 49ers team I find myself being more and more accepting.
Steve McMichael is a rare player with limited accolades I support. I just think he was a great player who kind of got lost on a great team. It sucks that he has ALS. I had a classmate friend who contracted it in his late 30’s. Very tough situation. he recently died as one of the longest known survivors at 20 years. I’m not sure how I feel about expediting a player because of illness. In McMichael’s case I’m probably not for it . I’m sure he is just grateful for the consideration and knowledge he likely will make it one day.
https://6abc.com/steve-mongo-mcmichael-2021-als-chicago-bears-lou-gehrigs-disease/11024725/
Eddie Meador is a player that can get voted in soon. If the three nominees gets extended beyond 2025, I like his chances alot.
A complete, versatile player, Meador was a PB cornerback in his first five seasons before becoming a multiple All-Pro safety, who also played special teams well. I may be wrong but Meador is first in Rams history in punts blocked, fumbles recovered and interceptions … not bad, including 47 interceptions with five returned for TDs.
A great free safety who could tackle as well, it will be interesting to see who will be the next Ram from that great George Allen defense to follow Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen into the HOF … Meador or celebrated LB, Maxie Baughan. Do they cancel each other out?
Bryan on the off chance wistert gets in is he offense or defense?
YT …
I consider him an offensive player, who helped make Steve Van Buren a superstar, though he was lauded by George Allen on defense as well … This Eagles team went to three consecutive championship games and deserves more respect as a great team.
If Paul is right at fortune telling, a great senior nomination, along with a great receiver and linebacker to possibly satisfy historians expectations this year.
The only negative I have on Sharpe getting elected, is that since 2020, he could become the fifth receiver elected. A high number since the Centennial Class.
This is a guy who I evaluated as some worth a good look. Has he ever made a list?
https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/riley-odoms-hall-of-fame-resume
I guess they need to get Gradishar in first. i don’t know why the Denver Defense is so overlooked other then their SB defeats left a bad taste in the voter’s mouths so to speak? Louis Wright and Karl Mecklenburg are overdo IMO. I was trying to hold Meck’s 79 sack against him but that seems awful good for an inside LB in a 3-4. Kevin Greene got his 160 sacks for an outside position. Is there as much of a difference as I think?
i recognize Maxie Baughan more as an Eagles player but I suppose I’m splitting hairs again. LOL
It seems like they are in a rush to get Robert Kraft in. I’m in more of a rush to get in a couple of the Head Coaches in then a rich owner to raw raw over. Tom Coughlin about to be 77. They waited way too long on Dan Reeves!! 20 years and now he’s gone. Marv Levy retired in 1997 elected to HOF in 2001. Bud Grant retired in 1985 elected 1994 . Reeves took two different organizations to the SB. How many times has that happened? Don Shula, Dick Vermeil, Andy Reid and ??
‘Ridiculous or not, he didnt win a SB or has made the HOF. There is a bias towards the AFL and Lamonica is being punished for it.’
Still an anti-AFL bias, huh? You’d think that would change someday. I mean, look how long it took for Johnny Robinson to finally get in.
‘If you would like me to read the tea leaves closer it would be Gradishar Sharpe Wistert’
This has hardly been the first year Gradishar was a favorite for nomination, as he’s been passed over before. Kuechenberg’s nomination seemed inevitable at one point, and he’s not even Final 12.
I’m not saying those *won’t* be the three nominees, but one should expect the unexpected.
‘ Eddie Meador is a player that can get voted in soon. If the three nominees gets extended beyond 2025, I like his chances alot.
A complete, versatile player, Meador was a PB cornerback in his first five seasons before becoming a multiple All-Pro safety, who also played special teams well. I may be wrong but Meador is first in Rams history in punts blocked, fumbles recovered and interceptions … not bad, including 47 interceptions with five returned for TDs.
A great free safety who could tackle as well, it will be interesting to see who will be the next Ram from that great George Allen defense to follow Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen into the HOF … Meador or celebrated LB, Maxie Baughan. Do they cancel each other out?’
I sure as heck hope not. Baughan and/or Meador, preferably both, should be nominated for 2024.
I see Wistert as more of an offensive lineman, think of Baughan with the Eagles first, then the Rams.
The thing that bothers me most about Mongo is all these years there never was a movement, nor was he ever considered or thought of much as a Hall of Famer. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, people are wanting to push him in because he’s contracted a horrible disease?
The committee nominated Ken Stabler and Dick Stanfel right after they passed and they both got enshrined.
If Mongo was actually being pushed for many years and actually gained traction by fans and Committee members through the years, I could go more along with it.
But if he otherwise wouldn’t be considered or nominated, what does that say?
Corey: Sorry for not being clearer. I don’t believe one play defined Craig or that one play is keeping him out. Instead, I was trying to say that the one play and his injury are, in fact, part of the overall picture. Everything needs to be taken into consideration. Craig played at a time of workhorse RBs, many of whom are already in the HOF. He certainly does fit that mold. He also isn’t a “slam dunk” candidate. He is a much more nuanced candidate that needs to be seen as a forerunner of Thurman and Faulk. But it is historically inaccurate to say he was the first receiving back. Guys like Moore and Mitchell did it a generation before. In the end, he is a borderline guy to me that has a few too many warts and plays a position that is already overrepresented in Canton (sorry Robert for repeating myself). As someone said, Craig wasn’t Payton. But he also wasn’t Dickerson, Dorsett, or Allen either. If Craig makes it, I’ll never say he wasn’t deserving. But I have many seniors ahead of him on my personal priority list.
Tony P: I’m so happy to see you mention Mecklenburg. I was planning on writing about him during the “dead period” after the announcement of the Seniors Candidates and before the modern candidates heats up. I’ve long believed he was deserving and overlooked. Big supporter. He is a prime example of the 80s players who have been long overlooked by the HOF (all those “missing” candidates when selectors weren’t putting in full classes and the 1960s/70s players took forever to get elected). There is a long list of 80s defenders who should get longer looks: Lewis, Mecklenburg, Cherry, N. Smith, O’Neil, Clyde Simmons, Minnifield, Dixon, etc. Not all of them are worthy, but none other than Lewis have even been discussed.
And, yes, I know that I’m being a little hypocritical given that Craig is another member of the 80s “lost generation.” To me, it is actually the strongest point in his favor. I’d just rather see WRs, OL, and defenders get their due first.
Haha … I repeat myself to death but have a passion for the history and former players because I am not as passionate about where the game is heading today. We have to celebrate these players because despite ebbs and flows to the game, their style of intensity and ferocity is pretty much gone.
Good comments on here and hope Paul is right because these voters can be funny and could easily put in Mongo more out of sympathy than achievement but that doesnt help the deserving seniors who are getting to an age where they cant enjoy enshrinement because of such long waits.
Lewis, Mecklenberg, Hilgenberg, N Smith, O’Neal, Cherry are due for future consideration but at what point, or how far does the Senior committee go with three nominees? Hall president Porter speculated that the process could go as long as it takes to get deserving candidates elected but backlash will come as well with many people feeling the HOF inducts too many players … Even if they go down to two instead of three seniors by say, 2028 or 29, that would still be fine with me over past procedures …
Roman Gabriel fumbled the ball more than any QB this side of Dave Krieg. lol He got a reputation like Joe Namath. Some players can overcome some can’t.
Brian, I’m not sure of I agree about the intensity being a lot less in today’s game. Money is a double edge sword. it affects players differently. These guys today are far more dedicated to their “body” and performing for that next big contract. I will say some think they are worth more they deserve for example Saquon Barkley. He finally has a good year away from nagging injury and wants the moon. Too his credit he came to his senses and accepted around 11 million for the year making him the 3rd highest paid RB. Still no big contract. LeVeon Bell is a good example of what can happens when you sit out for a year.
Isn’t it crazy what QB’s are getting paid today? I mean it’s capitalism so it’s ok but does kind of blow the mind. They have passed the biggest baseball contracts by 15 million plus. And are on par with the top NBA player Steph Curry. Justin Herbert just signed for 52 million average per year contract. He hasn’t won anything. lol It makes Magic Johnson’s 25 million dollar contract over 25 years look like chump change. lol
I dunno TonyP … players take care of their bodies but cant play every game. I know teams emphasize depth and “next man up” but many great players cant or wont play the entire season. Lamar Jackson was due back to play by week 15 last year but decided to sit, miss the playoffs and hold out for the big contract he got. That would have been unheard of, thirty years ago.
When I watch older games from my collection or Youtube, I still believe players played more physical, faster and with more intensity back in the day. A much more violent game to me. Everytime I see a hit or collision in todays game, I know the penalty flags will follow. It really handcuffs the defense. Offensive holding use to be called all the time but now way less frequently. Thats why Brady and Rodgers can play till their 45 … rushers have to always be aware of how they hit them. Its crazy frustrating.
That field in the SB was so slick, it completely neutralized both defenses, especially Philly’s … that team was known for their rush and had to watch Mahomes riddle them … I dont think KC repeats this year.
You heard it hear first … Joe Burrow for Cincy needs to get his contract resolved fast and try to get it guaranteed. His body will not make it the next seven years. If he gets beyond the next five, I will be amazed. I dont think his career will make it to ten years …
“If Craig makes it, I’ll never say he wasn’t deserving. But I have many seniors ahead of him on my personal priority list.”
This sums it up. I think Craig should be in the Hall of Fame, but he isn’t among my pet projects.
“Good comments on here and hope Paul is right because these voters can be funny and could easily put in Mongo more out of sympathy than achievement but that doesnt help the deserving seniors who are getting to an age where they cant enjoy enshrinement because of such long waits.”
If Gradishar or Sharpe or Jacoby or someone else contracted ALS (which I would never wish on anybody), I’d be okay with the senior committee nominating them, or at least more okay with it because I’ve seen supporters, some vocal, for all three. I’ve said on here before what a huge mistake I thought Covert was, but I at least saw a tiny fraction thinking before his election that he should be in.
Never can I recall Mongo being among the final seniors in line for nomination. Never can I recall anyone on Twitter, anyone on comments sections, on here, anywhere, clamoring for him to be put in. It’s honestly never been on my radar.
Then you have all these other candidates, who are older, more deserving, yet they’re going to bypassed just because of a sympathy vote when you most likely wouldn’t look his way if he were still fully healthy.
I don’t want to sound mean or cruel, just objective. I’m rooting for Mongo to fight through his illnesses and to have the best care and treatment possible and not to suffer. If this was someone in the senior pool who’s actually been seriously considered and close to nominated before in this awful predicament, I’d get more behind it, and if it was someone I found especially deserving, I’d ask what took so long.
“Hall president Porter speculated that the process could go as long as it takes to get deserving candidates elected but backlash will come as well with many people feeling the HOF inducts too many players”
There already is such a backlash. But many people are absolutely very deserving of the honor. Most who are in should be in.
Backlash from people ignorant about the Hall and process isn’t very influential
Paul, I agree – the backlash is ignorant and I hope it doesn’t get much influence. Not saying we need three seniors every year forever but I hope it goes on for a while. Look at all of the classes back in the 70s and 80s that only had 3 or 4 inductees when they could have had 5 or 6, flat out voting down ridiculously qualified players for open spots and inexplicably making them wait several years (players like Joe Schmidt, Roosevelt Brown, Jim Taylor and Night Train Lane not getting the required 80% multiple times is just plain stupid, but it happened). That’s one of the reasons we have this backlog.
I agree with Corey about Mongo. I recall thinking he was a good player with an outsized personality but just never saw him as a hall of famer, and never really heard any discussion about it until the ALS diagnosis. I’ve heard some discussion elsewhere that makes me think perhaps he was very underrated as a pass-rushing interior lineman and maybe I should give him more credit…but when push come to shove, I feel like I’m trying to make myself somehow get on board with him because it’s just inevitable that he’ll be elected, probably this year given his health (and no matter how hard I squint…he doesnt measure up to, for example, Michael Dean Perry who hasn’t gotten a sniff). Obviously it’s a devastating situation and wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but you’re right: if a Roger Craig or a Jacoby or an Albert Lewis had ALS I might be pulling for them this year because of it but I have a lot of trouble with McMichael…In addition to the health issue, I also just think there’s a loud fan base and a few very influential writers/voters for Chicago (that’s how you ended up with both Ed Sprinkle and Jim Covert getting in a few years ago), especially when it comes to the ’85 team (hell, I once encountered a seemingly knowledgable Bears fan who claimed with a straight face that every single starter on that team needed to be in the HOF). I still think Covert is an absolutely mind-boggling selection and McMichael would be about the same. Who’s next – Fridge? Matt Suhey? (ironically, Hilgenberg might be the one guy that really deserves it but seems to generate no interest).
Paul, I really hope whatever buzz you picked up on last weekend pans out – that would be an awesome class! Recent history just has me feeling skeptical.
‘Look at all of the classes back in the 70s and 80s that only had 3 or 4 inductees when they could have had 5 or 6, flat out voting down ridiculously qualified players for open spots and inexplicably making them wait several years (players like Joe Schmidt, Roosevelt Brown, Jim Taylor and Night Train Lane not getting the required 80% multiple times is just plain stupid, but it happened). That’s one of the reasons we have this backlog.’
And those are some people who made the NFL’s 100th Anniversary Team. Alan Page wasn’t first ballot. Vince Lombardi wasn’t first ballot.
I saw someone tweet over the weekend the Hall of Fame should only be limited to top three by position.
This means that at running back, someone like Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith would be left out.
It’s better to enshrine someone undeserving than leaving out someone who deserves it.
‘I also just think there’s a loud fan base and a few very influential writers/voters for Chicago (that’s how you ended up with both Ed Sprinkle and Jim Covert getting in a few years ago), especially when it comes to the ’85 team (hell, I once encountered a seemingly knowledgable Bears fan who claimed with a straight face that every single starter on that team needed to be in the HOF). I still think Covert is an absolutely mind-boggling selection and McMichael would be about the same. Who’s next – Fridge? Matt Suhey? (ironically, Hilgenberg might be the one guy that really deserves it but seems to generate no interest).‘
Hilgenberg is probably the one person from the 1985 team not already in who actually has an argument. Joe Fortunato should be in, and I think Olin Kreutz/Devin Hester, too.
But not Covert, not Sprinkle, not Mongo, definitely not everybody from the entire 1985 team, and this is coming from a Bears fan.
I was born after 1985 and I’m so sick of hearing about them being worshipped like deities and the fan base clinging so hard to almost 40 years ago when the franchise can’t be bothered to give younger fans any new ones.
If you would like to hear more about the PFHOF election process, including the committees, this recent interview of Clark Judge is a great one for that background and context:
https://www.football-learning-academy.com/
Hoping the contributor is another HC after seeing Air Coryell land in Canton. Buddy Parker needs to be the guy but I doubt it. Will be interesting if Holmgren or Reeves could bypass him.
Once Kraft is in, hopefully no others owners or owners sons but we know the future voting wont work that way …
It would be great if Kilroy emerged out of the blue. It would be like putting in four senior players but they still have to get voted in by Feb … This nomination should be tuesday, right?
Tuesday is the nomination, yes, would love Kilroy.
Here’s how I see the senior voting go next week
Eliminated first round:Craig Jacoby Lewis McMichael Powell Taylor
Final 6: Anderson Baughan Gradishar Meador Sharpe Wistert
Prediction for Final 3: Gradishar Sharpe Wistert
Should get announcement of coach-contributor later this afternoon -frankly anyone besides Kraft would be a surprise
announcement of class of 2024 coach-contributor finalist tomorrow 1 p EDT (Weds Aug 16) -frankly anyone besides Robert Kraft would be a surprise
Coach-contributor finalist announced tomorrow august 16th at 1 pm EDT
From my Research its down to: Kilroy Parker Reeves Schottenheimer Shaughnessy Wells
my guess its either Shaugnessy or Parker
Robert, is something making you think it’s one of the deceased members? If that’s the case my money is on Schottenheimer followed by Reeves. Can’t imagine there’d be enough interest for someone who isn’t recent.
Jeff is that what I’m thinking exactly,could it be Schottenheimer perhaps
If the delay is due to the need to locate family of a deceased candidate (and the HOF did its typical legwork ahead of time), then the candidate is unlikely Reeves or Schottenheimer. The logic just doesn’t work because both families should be fairly easy to locate. Heck Brian Schottenheimer is the current OC of Dallas. Therefore, I’m guess the delay is due to either the need to locate a much less assessable candidate’s family (Shaugnessy, Parker, and maybe Wells fall into that category) or the delay is due to PR reasons to maximize the impact—I.e., set up an NFL network event for Kraft. Given all the work Kraft is doing right now with PR for his wonderful anti-antisemitism (couldn’t think of a better description) campaign, this second option makes a lot of sense to me.
ill be honest i can see your line of thinking justin although i still think it is someone deceased
Robert: you could easily be correct. Just wanted to note that there are other possibilities. We’ll all know soon. The only candidate that I feel even remotely passionate about is Schottenheimer. Met him during his one year in Washington. Of course, our terrible owner fired him because he “wasn’t have fun.” Idiot. Schottenheimer deserved better. He did a hell of a job getting that team to 8-8 with Tony Banks at QB. Schottenheimer also deserved better in Cleveland and San Diego (only coach ever fired after a 14-2 season). Wonderful coach who just never found a good QB outside of Kosar, a very old, banged up Montana, and a very young Rivera. Would love to see what Schottenheimer would have done with one more year. That might have been San Diego years. A terrible playoff loss like the one San Diego suffered often leads to a Super Bowl win the next year—Denver’s lose to Jax, Washington’s lose to the Giants in ‘86, etc.
Robert may be on to something but the NFL has always parcelled out news or announcements. They want to stretch out something for every day to feed the media that depends on pro sports. After just having preseason games, they want to make sure injuries and cuts, transactions are announced first because even before the season starts, people are determining how and when they will start gambling on games, fantasy leagues etc …
I too, am a fan of MartyBall but his teams playoff losses could be really bad. Great coach or not, Marty could have uptight teams that couldnt relax and play their games in the playoffs. Thats why they went further into the postseason with Kosar and Montana – those QBs could pick up the team in the clutch but other QBs like Bono, Grbac, Rivers etc, couldnt.
I still believe if Marty and showed more faith in Rich Gannon, he would have had his QB to succeed Montana but he let him go to the Raiders. SD and Cleveland were stupid to let Marty go but what do you expect from Spanos and Modell?
I sure would like an official explanation on the delay, regardless of who it is.
Parker it is.
I don’t have him inherently undeserving, probably middle of the pack. Kilroy, Kraft, Wooten and Shaughnessy all stood out to me.
Is it Buddy Parker?
Congratulations to the family of Buddy Parker !!
Should have been in along time ago. Was 4-1 against Paul Brown with two championships out of three consecutive years and built the 1957 champion as well, getting Tobin Rote before leaving the team.
Made a winner in Pittsburgh as well but couldnt replace Bobby Layne – who could?
They actually picked the best candidate for a change
You were right Robert, they went away from Kraft …
Shaughnessy and Shaw are the only coaches deserving from that era, left.
If Wistert can get in as well, a memorable Class Of 2024 with reverance to the past.
Has anyone heard what the cut down votes looked like?
Potsy clark has a case (need more recent coaches to go in before I consider the in/out line for coaches.
coaching alone I would put him in before coryell
Has anyone heard the results of each cutdown vote? Interested to know who is law got to the end.
‘coaching alone I would put him in before coryell’
Air Coryell was such a game changer, he had to enshrined.
Yep, forgot about Potsy Clark who has a case despite tough years with the Brooklyn Dodgers …
Corey that is why I said coaching alone. To avoid any contributor discussions
It was afternoon meeting yesterday that went longer than expected (apparently took extra rounds of voting to break ties) so was too late in day for Hall to push out official announcement – we can recall same happened last august with seniors announcement. Kudos for John Turney and Clark Judge for their recent efforts to push his case as apparently it came down to Parker and Kraft, and very heated meeting and tight outcome. And yep increasing that unlike last year Hall did not release results of cutdown votes..hmm
On the centennial class coaching candidates only reeves and Holmgren are left not in.
My hope going into this next election is either hay (a TD) or kilroy (a FG) anyone else who clearly belongs (reeves, Holmgren, siwoff, Shanahan, coughlin etc.) would just be a PAT
I still commend the voters for righting this wrong. Kraft can wait. What will be interesting is what happens next … Will Kraft get elected for 2025 or fire Belichick first ?
Does anyone have a source of video or clip of Ed Meadows knocking Bobby Layne out of the Bears-Lions game for the 1956 western division ?
Surprised that it’s Parker – totally expected Kraft or a recent coach. I think he’s deserving, so good on them.
Not sure what others think, but I’m not terribly fond of an annual slot for coaches/contributors – would prefer a fourth senior! Or maybe make it every 3-4 years instead of annually. I’d rather have players first, coaches second, contributors a distant third. I have trouble ranking the remaining coaches but would kinda like to see Coughlin get the honor. I suppose I’ve looked at the entire list of names these past two years and thought that I’d be OK seeing any of them get elected, and not heartbroken if none of them ever do.
With Parker voted in, I feel the next two-time champion voted in should be Shanahan. Unlike Coughlin, whose Giants teams got hot at the end of the year and won SB upsets, the Broncos were one of the NFLs best teams from 96-98.
Seifert won two as well but won the first SB with Walsh’s team and took advantage, literally, of free agency and the cap to win his second. Expectations were so high in SF that he got fired just two seasons after that SB, which was wrong. He deserved to coach that team into the 2000s …
Holmgren and Schott are as deserving as Reeves and hopefully, Chuck Knox will get a chance later …
According the John Turney, Kraft didnt even make the final three … bet it was between Parker, Holmgren and Reeves
Bet it was between Parker and the two Mikes
After the Hall didn’t release last/this year’s modern-era finalist cutdowns, and called the twelve candidates to reach this stage *semi*finalists, in retrospect it shouldn’t be surprising that they wouldn’t release the intermediate cutdowns.
Jeff im with you 100% i would be in favor of a fourth senior as you are best way to contact me jeff is on twitter
The hall released the 2023 modern election cutdown votes from 15 to 10 to 5, in fact their media guide lists them going back years
I don’t see Marty as very Canton worthy. Holmgren has a case, but not before others.
I don’t judge players by winning and postseason success, but I do judge coaches, executives and owners by such metrics when it comes to Canton.
You could make the Bud Grant/Marv Levy argument with Reeves. You can’t with Schottenheimer.
If you’re going to be a coach in Canton without a Super Bowl win, you should at least be coaching in multiple Super Bowls.
Coryell is the exception to the rule because of how he revolutionized the passing game. He earned his bust that way.
Give me Parker, Shanahan, Reeves, Coughlin and even Holmgren before Schottenheimer. And that’s just among coaches, never mind contributors.
agreed 100% corey i would take shaughnessy reeves coughlin shanahan etc over marty any day of the week
Btw to add onto coreys point here is each of their postseason records
Holmgren 13-11
Coughlin 12-7
Reeves 11-9
Shanahan 8-6
Schottenheimer 5-13
Good opinions Corey but I disagree. Marty didnt win it all but took three different teams to the playoffs making three championship games. George Allen and Don Coryell never won it all either. Bad postseason record but look at the QBs who beat his teams … Marino(85,90,94)Elway(86,87,97)Kelly(91,93)
Moon(1988) and Brady(2006)
He deserved to coach Rivers at least two more seasons in SD but got fired because his defensive back fumbled a game-winning interception back to Brady and their offense in the his last postseason game. Snake bitten …
Like I said, I grant exception to Don Coryell not coaching in any Super Bowls due to him being such an innovator with his Air Coryell offense. I don’t know of Schottenheimer being such a revolutionary.
There was that in San Diego, plus the Drive, plus the Earnest Byner fumble.
What makes Schottenheimer more worthy than Shanahan/Parker/Reeves/Coughlin/Holmgren?
Then think of executives and pioneers who should be in. John Wooten, Clint Murchison, Jack Vainisi all have good arguments. There’s Clark Shaughnessy, a bunch of other contributors who don’t get consideration.
Schottenheimer? Just like you need to clean out the senior pool for me to see some candidates as justifiable, you need to elect a lot of coaches/contributors for me to get to Schottenheimer.
No problem. Its fun to debate and discuss on this site. I agree about Vainisi and Shaughnessy but not Wooten or Murchison.
Kotal or Parrish are just as deserving but I am glad its more about coaches than anyone else … Next week will be a doozy.
I think if you win with multiple organizations, that’s a testament to you. Wooten has two rings from across the decades with two different franchises. You can’t overlook that.
Murchison founded America’s Team and put the right pieces in place to allow them to become what they were.
If it were solely up to me, I’d have nominated Kilroy.
Next week, I’ll take any combination of Gradishar/Meador/Baughan/Wistert. If none of those four are selected, the committee dropped the ball big time.
I also think Deron Cherry should be getting the kind of attention Albert Lewis is getting.
Youre right about Wooten and Murchison, I just feel they should wait, especially Murchison, though I dont want any more owners in the Hall other than Hay.
The best thing about Murchison was he quietly writing the checks while Schramm, Landry and Brandt ran the team. They are already elected so no use in adding another, when players like Green, Martin, Neely and Niland deserve consideration as well. I also agree about Kilroy. At least he and Wooten played …
I agree about Cherry but he isnt as hot as Lewis now, who could shake up the final three. I am hoping Paul is right as a fortune teller … haha
Hay, Murchison, Kraft are owners who should be in, I think.
I’d be open to enshrining Niland and Green, though neither are a huge priority. I say no to Neely and Martin.
Also, for those on here who I’m conversing with on Twitter, you’ll know I’ve just about had enough of the crying from Broncos fans. They do this every August.
if they select 2 of these 4 Baughan Gradishar Meador Wistert then i will be satisfied 100% the other one well id be ok with any except the following McMichael Taylor Powell
I would like to see Gradishar, Sharpe and Meador in this round but would not be surprised to see McMichael, Wistert or Lewis.
I agree Bill although I would be shocked if they picked Wistert. I think he’s clearly the most deserving name on the list but doubt there’s much interest. I hope I’m wrong but given their track record, two of the three are likely to be really underwhelming (I’m still thinking it will be McMichael plus some combination of Lewis, Taylor and Sharpe…I really hope I end up being wrong about that).
Who I want: Gradishar, Baughan, Meador.
Who I think it’ll be: Gradishar, Sharpe, Mongo.
I think Sharpe deserves it, but he isn’t at the top of my wishlist.
Here’s who it won’t be based on being less than a decade in the senior pool: Craig Jacoby Lewis McMichael so we’re down to 8 Anderson Baughan Gradishar Meador Powell Taylor Wistert, cancel out powell and taylor and now we’re down to Anderson Baughan Gradishar Meador Sharpe Wistert
Robert, what you say makes sense and I hope you’re right – that would be a very good final six. I’m just skeptical it will turn out that way. I think there’s a lot of sentiment to get McMichael in while he’s alive (I don’t want to sound insensitive – ALS is a terrible disease, it would mean a lot to his family, and he was a good player….but I think he’s at or near that bottom of this list of 12). Taylor’s recent death may have put more of a spotlight on him as well.
Agreed with you there jeff 100% appreciate the feedback
Heres How i see it on for the seniors one spot i believe will go to Gradishar the other two are wildcards
I see Gradishar as well Robert but believe Sharpe and McMichael get elected after Parker … An NFC north heavy class with possibly Jared Allen from Minn and Peppers from GB and Chicago too, though most of his career was in Carolina …
Lets go Wistert!
Class Of 2024 Wish List *
Wistert
Gradishar
Meador
Parker — nominated
Peppers
Allen
Gates
Nalen
Woodson
Prediction
Gradishar
Sharpe
McMichael
Parker
Peppers
Gates
Allen
A Johnson
Woodson
* Updated
Maxie Baughan has passed, and without a bust in Canton.
What better honor and tribute to him over this news could there be than to finally nominate him, as it should’ve been many years ago?
It’s a real shame, Corey. Baughan could’ve easily been nominated last year (and in my opinion would’ve been a much better pick than Klecko or Riley). Baughan would’ve been a better pick than quite a few of the seniors that have been picked in the past decade. I’m increasingly pessimistic that Meador or Gradishar will make it in while still living.
I kinda doubt it’ll make him more of a priority among voters – if anything, I could see it making McMichael more of a priority given his health.
Jeff can we please give it a rest on riley and klecko they are in can we please move on
RIP Baughan
RIP Maxie Baughan
Many people have advocated for him for many years and he had to have had his hopes up for this year.
So the vote is tomorrow and announcement on weds? Just confirming, Thanks …
Brian that is the current schedule (of course Hall could also change timing of the press release as they don’t notify anyone in advance of its release)..also John Turney will serve as non-voting historical consultant to the voters during their Zoom election meeting tomorrow-which should help the cases for Gradishar, Meador and super-seniors given his knowledge and recent advocacy for them. As we all know these can be very unpredictable events but may as well place some % chances of candidate elections (at least how I see it):
Gradishair 80%
Sharpe 60%
Wistert 40%
Meador 40%
Lewis 40%
Baughan 30%
Craig 30%
all other senior semifinalists each 20%
Thanks Paul …
test
Finally! I was getting tired of talking about NBA old timers. LOL Here’s what I was going to post a few weeks ago.
Corey, I’d say I’ve been a strong supporter of Steve McMichael for years now and write on this site often. I didn’t know he had ALS until last week. His 95 sacks is more than Mean Joe Greene 77.5 and Buck Buchanan 70 and tied with Bob Lilly. I know it’s unofficial. lol Maybe he wasn’t double teamed as often but is still an impressive number . Aaron Donald will likely never get to Mongo’s 847 tackles. He was one of the hardest toughest players in his era. He played all out. He was one of the strongest Texas Longhorn players in their history and one of the best. He is in their Ring of Honor and the College Football HOF. He was very much a forgotten man IMO after the short glory years of the mid 80’s Bears. He had 10.5 and 11.5 sacks and didn’t make it to the PB. I’ll have to research who was beating him out. He belongs in the PFHOF IMO. It doesn’t matter when to me but he belongs.
People who revere the 1985 Bears team are understandable. I cling onto the 1972 Dolphins!! :) The Bears D was regarded by many as the best Defense in NFL History at that point. It’s a bummer for Bear’s fans that they haven’t won enough to have better memories in recent times. Unfortunately the Dolphins fans haven’t either. LOL I had to change Teams as a Texan. Life can be hard as a football fan. lol I suspect Chicago fans are the same way with the Bulls. Could be worse and be a Jets fan. Just my opinion, if McMichael isn’t deserving, neither was Dan Hampton. He was totally off my radar when he got elected.
I don’t have any problem with McMichael’s resume or case being made as a finalist BUT there is simply no way on this ballot he is top 3 and likely not even top 6. If he gets in the class of 2024 (which is very unlikely) it will come at the expense of a far more deserving senior-and those who has waited decades longer.
Sorry but age and health should not be the factor nor should a family run election campaign built on emotion-clearly attended to draw sympathy from voters, that is purely and simply wrong. In fact such an strategy is just as likely to fail as among those 12 voters for the ones you can draw to your case there are also others who will be offended at such an attempt, and on this committee there are voters who are already feeling that way.
Voters aren’t informed about a candidates health (nor are they required to reveal it) so its an unfair advantage or factor to consider for those candidates that voters are aware of. So they elect Meador (age) or McMichael (health) who are deserving but voters also aware of their health issues, while not electing Gradishar, Jacoby, Craig or others who have not publicly disclosed heath and then one of them dies before next election. Review the cases on merit and elect the 3 best candidates on the ballot. Should have Stabler, Branch been elected before death, perhaps; should Howley been elected before health issues, yes….but the fundamental issue with those cases it not elect based on age (all seniors are 70+) and before dealth/illness, but elect them because they are the best candidates on the ballot.
We will see Paul, just like we will see if this class will be NFC North/Central heavy. Wistert and Gradishar would be home runs for me after Parker but Mongo getting elected would not surprise me. I didnt agree with Hampton’s election but sportswriters loved talking and getting quotes from Hampton, Klecko and McMichael. It would also not surprise me if one nominee fails to get elected in late january, so the voters need to get it right …
Ah Salute, to all the nominees on this crucial voting day …
Sorry I am not buying into any theory of a NFL division heavy strategy or outcome organized by small group along the 12 voters…if its a solid 3 senior finalists (guessing that will be case) not sure why we keep worrying about a rejection of one by full committee of 50 voters in January when that has been rare occurrence in last two decades and more so in recent years, especially after it was the voters who asked for more annual senior slots-not happening folks.
And FYI, Hall has already informed media that 2024 senior finalists will not be announced today but at 1p EDT tomorrow (Aug 23) so expect ZERO news from Hall or voters today. Given that last years press release was day later (as was coach-contributor last week) Hall now aware it’s simply not possible to have time same day to release results when election meeting alone takes several hours, plus time to call all 12 finalists and compile info and quotes for press release.
I’m wondering paul if they go all defense or all offense or a mixture
This is my final guess:
Randy Gradishar
Sterling Sharpe
Steve McMichael
Brad, BoKnows34, Rasputin, Bachslunch
Which seniors do you guys want? Who do you predict? Did any of you endorse Parker?
2024 Pro Football HOF seniors finalists are LB Randy Gradishar, DT Steve McMichael and WR Art Powell, @ProFootballHOF
announces.
WOW
Actually speechless
Art Powell came out of nowhere? Was a top notch receiver from the old AFL, but surprised he nominated over sterling Sharpe. Good for him!
Wow! … Thanks Paul
McMichael doesnt surprise me …
Finally for Gradishar!
Powell did!
Congratulations to these players and their hopeful upcoming enshrinement!
With Brian here.
Gradishar finally and Powell was unexpected.
McMichael would be the fourth defensive player from the 85 Bears? Hampton. Dent, Singletary.
plenty to consider here,,,but a few quick impressions…voters were given great opportunity to elect 9 great, well deserving and long waiting seniors from 2023-2025, in my view they hit on only 2/6 (Howley/Gradishar)…. second…super-seniors/pre 1960 candidates are screwed as only a few voters plus non voting football historians are advocating for them, as majority on the 12 member seniors committee simply don’t care, dismiss their resumes…unless (as Porter has mused publicly) Hall begins to mandate one super senior a year from 2025-2028, those guys are going no where…and finally if I am family of Meador (age 86) I would be pushing his health as a factor when publicly advocating for him for class of 2025…
Well … one things for sure, they didnt worry about a queue this year and I doubt for next year as well. Voters had to have felt an AFL player was finally worthy and Powell is but give credit to whoever presented him because a betting man would have not put money on him this year.
I am still stunned that interior players like Klecko and McMichael jumped ahead of probably more qualified players but I gave my reasoning earlier … never underestimate big cities with many sportswriters.
Sharpe is young and has plenty of time–maybe next year– yet disappointed Wistert still cant make it.
Subjective Report Card 2023-24 Nominees
Howley — A … was way overdue
Gradishar — A … finally, recognition for the Orange Crush defenses
Powell — B+ … Deserving, but was mostly a star in the early years. Yet those statistics are absorbed for better or worse.
McMichael — B … Deserving, but could have waited
Klecko — B … Safe pick but injured alot
Riley — B- … Ballhawk but wasnt accoladed enough
Now the question is … who was #4 – 12 ?
Yep, despite one championship, that 1985 Bears team could have six HOF members with Hilgenberg and Marshall trying to get in as well … we will see if they get traction.
With Gradishar in, Baughan should get his chance next year but the deck will be reshuffled …
For next year, could a new AFL player emerge like Powell or Taylor? Grayson, Sweeney, Grantham?
Well, at least the senior committee is consistent – always batting .333. For every great pick, there are two underwhelming ones.
Very happy for Gradishar. Outstanding pick – I think I’m more relieved than elated that they actually selected him. For the other two, it isn’t that they’re necessarily unworthy so much as I don’t see how it is possible you’d rank either of them ahead of most of the other names on the list. Powell was a great, forgotten player and I’m not opposed to him being in the HOF, but over Sterling Sharpe? I understand some will disagree but I have a lot of trouble getting my brain around Steve McMichael. I really think they picked arguably the two weakest cases of the 12, and they did close to the same thing last year. I mean, it isn’t surprising…but it’s really disappointing when you could’ve taken Baughan, Wistert, Meador, Jacoby, Craig, Sharpe, or even Lewis. I’m being arbitrary, but between McMichael, Ken Riley and Jim Covert in 2020 you have three recent selections who went to a grand total of 4 pro bowls and made 5 first-team all-pro teams. Combined. Put them all together and they don’t measure up to Maxie Baughan alone. Or Ed Meador.
Starting to think it might already be time to end the three seniors experiment.
problem with ending the 3 per year is that it makes chances for others more harder…one could say these last two classes are justification for continuing with 3 per year 2026-2028 to ensure others at least get their cases heard..and pretty clear voters don’t care one bit about super-seniors whose cases are likely dead in the water
I totally agree Paul on McMichael!! Him having ALS is no different than the an 85 year old man who have been waiting and is living on short time. One of my school friends had ALS and was one of the longest known survivors at 20 years. Not saying McMichael has long but should not be a factor with other more deserving players like you say.
It looks fairly certain now that McMichael will be nominated on Saturday. Do you think they are succumbing to past criticism with players like Ken Stabler? It does seem like they have had a pension lately to get senior players elected to the HOF who have recently died. Without a doubt Bob Kuechenberg who is deceased deserves to go in before McMichael. Two players of the same gritty ilk. If he doesn’t I would say the ALS had a factor and shouldn’t have.
Well I just saw who they announced. I few minutes ago I read article saying McMichael family was sworn to secrecy until Saturday so I thought the announcement was to come. I am a little disappointed as I’m sure some others here are.
Gradishar obviously belongs.
Powell is a great underappreciated pick who if one considers the afl as worthy league is one of the best (not as good as howton) receivers not in. Much better pick than drew pearson. Powell’s career numbers in 1966 were 5th in receiving yards, 5th in receptions and 3rd in receiving touchdowns, and 8th in total touchdowns. The problem was his last good years were before the superbowl gave the afl legitimacy.
His case is a good sign against recentiziim who is the earliest candidate except wistert
Mcmichael think I can pick at least 200 better eligible players. Between mcmichael and young I think the hall is saying high sacking is the most important thing for a defensive tackle. Anyone else predict that hilderberg would not make the hall but covert and mcmichael would?
Wonder, if jeff is right would mcmichael make it if they voted last week before maxie baughan died ?
Correction
Anyone ever predict Hilgenberg would not be in the hall while Covert and McMichael would.
I hate typing names on a phone.
I don’t understand why people have to resort to hyperbole. You got 200 players more deserving than McMichael? Okay start naming them
I also don’t see how Kuechenberg is “without a doubt” more deserving than McMichael. Just in terms of end of season honors that isn’t the case
I’ll give my report card Brian using yours. lol
Subjective Report Card 2023-24 Nominees
Howley — A … was way overdue
Gradishar — A … finally, recognition for the Orange Crush defenses
Powell — B To be honest when I saw the name Powell I thought of 3/5 Marvin Powell. i don’t think anyone can argue with this guy’s stats. My question is what took them so long? Being called King Pin the guy must have garnered plenty of attention. lol If he passes the film study I have no issue with his selection. Is effective career was a little shorter but it’s OK. I see Sterling Sharpe getting in soon. Maybe this selection clears the way against critics. They already let Terrell Davis, Tony Boselli and Jimbo Covert into HOF. I fought the Boselli one hard. lol And Covert never was even on my radar.
McMichael — C … Too soon . Deserving, but should have waited. I believe it sets a bad precedent against fairness.
Klecko — D Overrated by the New York media- IMO he was HOVG. He had a couple excellent years but wasn’t any better than Fred Smerlas or Bob Baumhower in his same division. His teammate Mark Gastineau was a better player but much less popular because of his antics compared to lunch pail Joe. I’m pretty sure Klecko wasn’t a HOFer. Gastineau’s peak could be considered. So much for that thinking. LOL
Riley — D- … Accolades speak for themselves. He was the second banana in his own secondary. His interceptions are his only leg to stand on. He got thrown on a lot and there was a lot of bad QB play in those days.
Thats the thing about the AFL, if youre going to absorb a leagues history, you have to take warts and all. Powell dominated against weaker defenses but by 66 and 67 was still a great player by the second SB.
If Speedie, Lavelli, Motley and other Browns can make the HOF dominating the AAFC, Powell has his chance now for the AFL, though Hennigan or Lionel Taylor may not.
Yes Paul, his activism/social stances could have made an impression with the right presenter … Powell helped end alot of the injustices facing black players and how they were treated playing in segregated or color compromised cities. He demanded and got equal treatment with white players, although it got him sent packing in situations as well.
With Sharpe not getting elected YT, it makes it harder for Dilweg in my opinion because Isbell demands attention as well. Lewellen is farther behind but someone has to move to help the others get traction. I was hoping that if Meador and Gradishar got elected it would help Baughan for next year but now Baughan and Meador could still cancel each other in wide open nominations for 2025.
Like you guys said, pass rushing in any form is helping guys get elected without as many accolades but many people didnt think McMichael would break through that quickly.
YT – McMichael had 847 tackles which is extremely active/skilled for a DT. He was a great player.
The only reason I say Kooch is more deserving is that there as been just as much of a consensus or more that he was HOF player and his family has waited a decade longer and through much more disappointment. It would seem fair he nominated first. Maybe with the circumstances McMichael is the safer pick?
A 2-2 player start by taking everybody with 4 pro bowls, I think that would be around 200 hit in the hall. For every name I take off who I would take Mcmichael over, I can easily find another player to put on including super seniors who were in the pre pro bowl era. I’m not sure if I can do it didn’t attempt to but I do not mean it as hyperbole knowing nothing else about a player I would take an 0-5 over a 2-2 player.
Including the afl all time teams there are over 100 all decade team picks not in the hall. Very few of who I would not take over McCmichael, that is practically 100 right there alone.
Found a website called not in the hall of fame which ranks their top 300 eligible football players not in and Mcmichael is not on it. I doubt I would find 100 on their list I would consider Mcmichael better than (and they probably missed a few I would rank above him)
Ps I meant eligible players not seniors.
Brian, I think when they looked at the film of McMichael it was hard to ignore his ferocious never quit play . Like I keep saying 847 tackles is darn impressive for an interior lineman. I believe he made everyone better around him too. I remember a couple big years Trace Armstrong had who is another underappreciated player with 106 sacks. Maybe his 1 PB is next into the HOF? LOL kidding
Sorry to say again but I think pre modern day players are essentially done. Even the 1960’s are being closed in on IMO and I’m surprised Powell got nominated.
I hope Tommy Nobis made it far in the final 12 discussion. Also still surprised 2/5 Bill Bergey and 2/6 Isiah Robertson aren’t more in the HOF discussion. Really, Joe Klecko? The last time I heard about him he was being sentenced for jail time. Just doesn’t seem like he should be rewarded with a marginal HOF case. I know I need to get over it. LOL
I saw a list of the most questioned HOF members? Like Paul says there’s no point but I found interesting Russ Grimm and Dan Hampton near the top of the list. Of course that crap about Bob Griese being nothing more than a game manager came up. They even question Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. I think it must have been someone born after 2000 who didn’t do his homework. LOL
Including gradishar there are 137 players in the PFRAs hall of very good and Mcmichael is not one of them. (took out coaches but left in kilroy and howell) . Just adding modern players and special teamers (who the hovg doesn’t like) I should easily get to 200.
The last time a senior made the hall without being in the hovg was Covert. Before that it was guy who as a punter was not going to get into the hug quickly. Before that it was richter when the hovg was less than half the size.
Counting postseason, Mongo had over 100 sacks and good tackle numbers … he reminds me of the 1st Mongo, Alex Karras from 20 years prior. He is more deserving to me over Hampton but its a slippery slope when you put in too many players from an underachieving team. At least with Kooch, he played well on a team that went to five SB games, not to mention being a finalist so many times. I really feel for his family, while knowing McMichaels family is elated.
On the grades TonyP, I dont give out C grades or less, unless I feel they dont deserve the HOF. Hampton was a great Bear, Hornung a great Packer, Walker a great Lion but I wouldnt put these guys into the HOF …
I am with you Jeff, until I saw it, I wouldnt believe it with Gradishar and still wont be convinced until February. The comment about hitting .333 is right on, this voting committee has chances to hit home runs but falls short … At least Parker and Gradishar are great picks …
All Pro and Pro Bowl selections are a piece of the puzzle, but shouldn’t be the be all end all imo
For the record though, McMichael had first team all pro honors three times (1985-87) . He was also second team a couple times after that
Another piece of info that I’m sure was used to help build his case – he was given a “blue” grade by Pro Scout Inc eight times. Blue is their highest grade
I agree and disagree with some of the sentiments. I will take this one player at a time.
Steve McMichael- Absolute Monster. Had 95 career sacks but was awesome against the run. was very quick off the ball and took down many RB’s behind line of scrimmage.
Joe Klecko- I grew up on the east coast. Jets were on TV a lot. I’m not a Jets fan, but he should have been in a long time ago. highlight reels are highlight reels, but his is 15 min long on youtube. Check it out. He was a violent player but did not pick up penalties. Was a better player than Gastineau. Way more Versatile than Gastineau. Was the Bruce Mathews of the d-line.
Bob Kuenchenberg- Sadly should have been voted in 15 years ago. But this is why these senior committees exist, to correct wrongs. Hopefully he gets in soon.
Art Powell- Was an all-timer in AFL circles, but like Walt Sweeney. NFLPA people I believe have held them down. Art Powell’s career was very similar to Tommy Mcdonald, and he made it long ago.
I do believe that Wistert, Sharpe, Nobis and Ken Anderson all get in the HOF in the next few years.
Brian,
Yes but McMichael’s level of play wasn’t why the Bears couldn’t get back to a SB. That defense as a whole was dry strong overall not just in ‘85 but from 1984-88. And McMichael kept on going after that
Seems revisionist to say Hampton doesn’t belong in the HOF at all. Maybe you’ve felt that way all along but I don’t remember that being the consensus opinion when he retired
‘super-seniors/pre 1960 candidates are screwed as only a few voters plus non voting football historians are advocating for them, as majority on the 12 member seniors committee simply don’t care, dismiss their resumes…unless (as Porter has mused publicly) Hall begins to mandate one super senior a year from 2025-2028, those guys are going no where…’
This has got to happen, no question about it. How else do Lewellen, Emerson, Dilweg and Wistert get a voice without mandating a slot?
‘I am still stunned that interior players like Klecko and McMichael jumped ahead of probably more qualified players but I gave my reasoning earlier … never underestimate big cities with many sportswriters.’
Gary Myers said on Twitter he wishes the public could access their meetings. But what would we take away from them?
‘Well, at least the senior committee is consistent – always batting .333. For every great pick, there are two underwhelming ones.’
This much is true.
‘Put them all together and they don’t measure up to Maxie Baughan alone. Or Ed Meador.
Starting to think it might already be time to end the three seniors experiment.’
No. It just needs more reform. Do I need to make Meador enshrined while he’s still with us my number one mission?
‘I totally agree Paul on McMichael!! Him having ALS is no different than the an 85 year old man who have been waiting and is living on short time.’
And he leapfrogged how many people?
‘I do believe that Wistert, Sharpe, Nobis and Ken Anderson all get in the HOF in the next few years.’
Gosh, I hope not on Nobis.
‘McMichael — C … Too soon . Deserving, but should have waited. I believe it sets a bad precedent against fairness.’
I never saw Mongo as a blip on anyone’s radar. So now, he contracts something as awful ALS and he leapfrogs everybody and is a finalist? Is this what we want the process and the Hall of Fame to be?
Youre right Scott, yet when you have that many HOF players on a defense, you hope the defense can give you at least 7-10 years of outstanding play, rather than 5-7. Once Buddy Ryan left, a lot of their mystique went with it though the defensive line remained strong. Great call on the Proscout rankings for Mongo, thats a great endorsement.
Speaking of Proscout … these players were considered HOF level but not elected at the time John Turney did this article for Pro Football Journal in 2019 …
Top Players Not In HOF (Proscout Inc)
C — Don Macek SD
G — Dave Szott KC
G — Ed White SD-MN
T — Mike Kenn ATL
T — Joe Jacoby/Tony Boselli (elected)
TE – Russ Francis NE-SF
QB
RB – Ricky Watters SF-PH-SEA
FB – Moose Johnston DAL
WR – Cliff Branch (elected)
WR – Drew Pearson (elected)
DE – Richard Seymour (elected)
DE – Charles Mann WAS
DT – Bryant Young (elected)
NT – Fred Smerlas BUF-SF
IL — Randy Gradishar (elected?)
OL – Clay Matthews CLE-ATL
OL – Matt Blair MIN
SS – Donnie Shell (elected)
FS – Nolan Cromwell/Eugene Robinson
CB – Louis Wright DEN
CB – Albert Lewis KC
These players were listed high as well for Proscout …
G — Doug Wilkerson
TE – Todd Christensen
RB – Roger Craig
DE – Rob Burnett
CB – Lester Hayes
McMichael wasnt mentioned in this article but might have been right behind Bryant Young.
I also feel thats one reason why Turney is a consultant for the senior committee; he has information supplied by Proscout, that has helped some of these guys get elected since this published article.
Corey I look at it a little differently – it’s a shame it took als for McMichael to get his case looked at, but once you do I believe it’s a deserving one. Another piece of the puzzle – testimonials. There’s a pre als article that Dan Pompei did about Hampton and McMichael (‘King and Ming’) that includes some glowing comments from Russ Grimm. When I get a chance I’ll post them here.
Brian
5-7 is still pretty damn good lol. Not to say the defense was totally blameless for those 1986-88 playoff losses but biggest issue was McMahon couldn’t stay healthy enough. And again McMichael kept going after ’84-’88 period even as Wilbur Marshall left in plan b free agency and Hampton and Otis Wilson fell apart physically. Was second team all pro in ’91 and had a 10.5 sack season in ’92.
Let’s wait to give grades until this cycle is complete giving grades right now is premature In my opinion and a rush to judgement, I’ve heard that the 3 might be permanent is it perfect no can it be fixed 100% with a few tweaks here and there, BTW going back to 1 or two would be a horrible idea for very many reasons some that Corey stated.
I have no issues with the first two groups at all since if I recall correctly Riley and klecko were runnerups so their inductions were known for a while. My main thing with them is I figured that perhaps this year we would have seen either Gastineau or Parrish among the senior semis.
That’s all for now I’ll be back very soon just have to handle some personal stuff
‘Corey I look at it a little differently – it’s a shame it took als for McMichael to get his case looked at, but once you do I believe it’s a deserving one.’
But why was his case never looked at, I mean ever? How does Mongo go from not even a thought to a senior finalist?
I’m happy for Mongo personally and happy for his family, but it’s more than just I specifically didn’t think of him as a Hall of Famer, I don’t ever recall him seriously being discussed on here. He didn’t have the movement that Gradishar, Anderson, Jacoby, Riley had.
I never saw voters talk about him, I never saw his names for these things or on any snub list.
It all feels manufactured, it all gives off a vibe about politics that he’s magically a Hall of Fame finalist over the only first-team All-Decade safety across how many decades who still isn’t in.
Again, no vitriol is had for Mongo himself, for his family or for Art Powell’s family. It’s just, what do I make of the committee and the process now, with the exception being the overdue Gradishar finally being nominated?
If you want testimonials, I’ve found some really good ones on Verne Lewellen and Ox Emerson, two super seniors I’m highly passionate about.
‘That’s all for now I’ll be back very soon just have to handle some personal stuff’
Best wishes, Robert. I hope all is well.
So far, two years and five defensive players to one offensive player, as usual, a receiver.
Could offense go at least two for three next year? If so, that could help Sharpe, Jacoby, Craig, Anderson, Taylor and Wistert, who at least had his case heard again.
I think Sharpe next year will be the sixth receiver in six years since the Centennial Class, unless new surprises emerge.
At least two players from the NFC Central didnt join Coach Parker like I speculated.
Are we staying with this thread Paul, or starting a new one that will speculate on the modern eligibles joining the seniors and coach ?
My thoughts
I’m surprised Buddy Parker made it over Robert Kraft but I’m still happy he made it he was one of my other choices if Robert Kraft didn’t make it the others were Mike Holmgren and Dan Reeves Holmgren Parker and Reeves were Centennial Class finalists
I’m glad Randy Gradishar is one of the three senior finalists I was so anxious when I saw he was one of the finalists it was a big sigh of relief
I did not expect Steve McMichael and Art Powell but I’m still happy for them it’s just too bad Steve McMichael has ALS
With the failure of the senior committee to elect a pre 1960s candidate the past two elections after expanding to three seniors I thinks it’s clear that even expanding to three seniors isn’t going to work for pre 1960s candidates such as Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert the only way their going to get in is via a special election for pre 1960s candidates with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
Let me share with you Jim Porter’s mantra his mantra is get it right and he certainly got it right by expanding to three seniors hopefully he can get it right by having a special election for pre 1960s candidates
In Eye Test for Two podcast today Kaufman stated that 4-6 were Craig Anderson Meador
Judge and Kaufman continue to press hall to dedicate one Super per year for limited period
Boy do I disagree with some on the proscouts list. Some picks feel crazy. lol I sure hope we don’t get in the habit of electing players with less than 5 PB’s.
0/3 Russ Francis was a beast for three years but got beat up and faded before having a couple decent years with the 49ers. He certainly wasn’t a HOFer. If he could have kept up the “All World” nickname he would have been. I’ve never heard anyone suggest that he was HOF worthy. I’d put TE Todd Christiansen ahead of him. Maybe even Keith Jackson.
0/2 Moose Johnston no way jose! Since when do we elect FB’s mostly for their blocking? If they are do, there are some really good ones to join him.
0/4 Charles Mann, a very good player and important to the Redskin’s SB Teams. He brought stability where Dexter Manley couldn’t. But with only 4 PB’s and 83 sacks not good enough IMO. I never thought of him as a HOFer.
0/4 Ed White, I don’t know for sure but would say no unless he was really undervalued in his early days with the Vikings. I saw him have a several good years and liked him on the “Superstars”. lol He was really strong . He played a long time. 1/3 Doug Wilkerson very much the same as Ed White. Seems like a stretch.
0/1 Rob Burnett was a really good player among many on the Ravens D.
0/0 Don Macek and 0/1 Dave Szott – really. lol
Steve McMichael should be regarded as a better candidate than Bryant Young.
I checked every preliminary list for McMicahel and he doesn’t seem to ever be thought of as hofer
he made the preliminary list in 2000 with 26 other first time players.
misses it from 02-08
makes it in 09 and 10
misses in 11-13
makes it again in 14 and 15
misses again in 16-19
5 times out of 20 (including a token first) for a high profile player on a high profile team, doesn’t seem like many voters thought he was a worthy pick until recently. He goes from missing the preliminary list to becoming the senior candidate in 5 years I wonder what changed?
‘With the failure of the senior committee to elect a pre 1960s candidate the past two elections after expanding to three seniors I thinks it’s clear that even expanding to three seniors isn’t going to work for pre 1960s candidates such as Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert the only way their going to get in is via a special election for pre 1960s candidates with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
Let me share with you Jim Porter’s mantra his mantra is get it right and he certainly got it right by expanding to three seniors hopefully he can get it right by having a special election for pre 1960s candidates’
‘Judge and Kaufman continue to press hall to dedicate one Super per year for limited period’
All of us, every single one of us, should write to Jim Porter in support of this.
‘He goes from missing the preliminary list to becoming the senior candidate in 5 years I wonder what changed’
It’s pretty telling, isn’t it?
Thats the thing TonyP … Proscout evaluates players very differently than anyone else including other coaches. Yet teams pay for their evaluations of players, so after all these years they must be doing something right.
Yes, coaches and opponents judge players for pro bowls but newspaper writers and homer journalists pick alot of All-Pro teams. As we have already seen with players getting selected over four times for All-Pro teams like Wistert, Shofner, Patton, Grayson and others, they get ignored by senior selection committees as well.
If anything, these players are subjectively underrated in their(Proscouts)eyes and they probably felt these players should have gotten more accolades or at least recognition for being more versatile players, like Craig for instance.
Thanks Paul … Craig, Anderson and Meador were close. I assumed Sharpe, Lewis and Baughan would have made the top six …
Next year will be a doozy again …
And I don’t think the point of John putting together the Pro Scout Inc not in the HoF team was to say “these guys should all be in”
Re: McMichael falling off the preliminary list. Sometimes for whatever reason guys fall through the cracks. How many times combined were Howley, Gradishar, Meador and Baughan (to name a few favorites) modern era finalists or even semi finalists?
Albert Lewis is another. His case was ignored for years for no real good reason
Some time back i made a list of 25 deserving seniors heres the list (Updated) thoughts?
1. Bruno Banducci
2. Dick Barwegen
3. Maxie Baughan
4. Jim Benton
5. Gene Brito
6. Ed Budde
7. Gary Collins
8. Lavern Dilweg
9. Ox Emerson
10. Larry Grantham
11. Leon Gray
12. Cornell Green
13. Billy Howton
14. Harold Jackson
15. Verne Lewellen
16. Eddie Meador
17. John Niland
18. Jimmy Patton
19. Michael Dean Perry
20. Lou Rymkus
21. Del Shofner
22. Jim Ray Smith
23. Walt Sweeney
24. Lionel Taylor
25. Al Wistert
I’m no longer speechless, and frankly glad that I held my tongue on Wednesday. I’ve come around that this is pretty solid list of candidates. Certainly not who I would have picked, but none are undeserving. In particular, I needed to better understand Powell’s case. I’m always suspect of players who bounce around among various teams–i.e., Harold Jackson. It seems to me that HOFers are generally the type of guys that you build around. Not always. There are certainly no universal rules. But generally, if I guy never finds a permanent home, there is a reason, and Powell is no different. But with Powell, the reason actually works in his favor. His social advocacy is not only laudable, but down right heroic. And it directly impacted and benefitted this teammates. To me that is close enough to be considered “on field.” Then I used the PFR “compare” feature to judge him against Lance Alworth. Obviously, this is not a “fair” comparison. No one pre-Rice, other than Hudson, is going to compare favorably against Alworth. Yet, I was surprised that despite playing a couple years less, Powell comes much much closer than I expected. Therefore, I’ve come around. Powell is not only a worthy HOFer, but his prior exclusion was a true wrong that needed to be corrected.
McMichael is also worthy, although closer to borderline. That said, I’ve never shied away from borderline candidates. I love that Mills is in the HOF. My favorite player of all time (and the reason I care so much about the HOF process) is Art Monk–not necessarily “borderline” but certainly a guy that needs to be viewed in context. McMichael is similar. Let’s call him the anti-Sapp. Consistent where Sapp was flashy. Yet, they ended up in the same place: 96.5-95 sacks. But McMichael was clearly a much better run defender. The only thing that seems weird is that the Bears DL now consists of 75% of HOFers. That is shocking, as all three were slightly above borderline candidates. But that shouldn’t be used against McMichael.
Therefore, after some thought, I’ve come around. The committee did an admirable job. I would have preferred others, but I’m more satisfied this year than last.
Scott
There is falling through the cracks versus, coming out of nowhere due to other factors.
Gradishar was a 2 time finalist and a semi finalist every year since they started announcing them. Lewis was a semi finalist 10 years before he became a finalist . Regarding Howley, Meador and Baughan, I don’t know how close they were when they were moderns, but they didn’t have a rocket launched rise to making the hall or coming close. Howley has regularly been considered one of the biggest snubs since I started following the hall vote around 20 years ago, and Baughan and to a lesser extent Meador have routinely made snubs lists for at least a decade.
Not being a Finalist or semi; How can you compare that to being on the preliminary list 25% of the time?
I have no problem if there was some sort of true reanalyzation that changed things. Please explain to me how 1/4 of the time McMichael is not on a list of around 100 modern people and all of a sudden within a short period of time (and a terrible diagnosis) he is now assumingly getting in the hall.
Now I’m all for rocket rises with a logical non medical explanation. If there is a rocket rise from only obsessed Bears fans suggesting him as a hall of famer, to shortly there after making it, I would like an explanation.
If let’s says someone like Coy Bacon came out of nowhere to make the hall due to recent sacks numbers I would have no problem with a rocket rise. If McMichael had a slow rise from (practically ) no one suggesting him as a hall of fame pick to making it I would still disagree with him making but not have the same view. If the view of his position, style of play, league quality, team etc. changed gradually I can understand his pick, but outside of Bryant Young making the hall I don’t see any non medical change what so ever. We are not talking about a lost player from decades ago coming out of no where, but a player who was resolutely rejected as a candidate 5 years ago. McMichael was not a player playing in the far past, or on a team that stunk making him forgotten, or on a team with so many dominant hall of famers that he was forgotten about the other way. He as far as I can tell never had people reject him like a Karras or Kramer due to off the field issues. He was a popular player who was in the limelight much more than most retired football players are. Let’s contrast him with Art Powell who was first voted on at a time where his league was rejected by the voters and it is possible that some voters were turned off due to racism. In recent years people have a better view of the AFL and to further contrast Powell with McMichael; Powell made the hall of very good the same year that McMichael failed for the last time to make the preliminary list that had 92 players who did make it.
McMichael was a high profile player, who had a high profile retirement on arguably the most over rated team in NFL History, he is not a player who is easily overlooked.
McMichael is the most out of no where pick ever, comparing him to teammate Covert who also came out of nowhere, But that was only due to looking at the players individually, but as a first team all decade player at a time when some were selling the centennial class with how many all decade players were not in the hall. Rightly or wrongly (PS wrongly) some hall voters decided that all decade teams are the first thing to look at for a candidate. In that context, Covert certainly has a very likely case for the hall, being at the time, the all 80’s team O/D player not in the hall. So while Covert came out of nowhere, a starter on an all decade team was to be expected.
If let’s say last year a cure for ALS would have been invented, I think it likely this same group of voters would have found over 100 candidates to pick before McMichael, that is the problem.
Like I stated on the PFRA website today, if Powell is elected in late January, that might be it on other early AFL receiving stars like Hennigan and Lionel Taylor but you never know?
Otis Taylor was mostly 70s but still may have his chance also but as far as 60s-era receivers, we will see if Shofner, Retzlaff, Howton–though 50s–and Collins will get chances in the future. I think Collins just misses but his TDs are impressive.
Brian
If the hall ever stops underplaying special teams, kicker/receiver Gino Cappelletti is a lock.
Robert Kraft has got to get in before 2027 and 2028 or who else is going to knock on the door of Rob Gronkowski and Tom Brady in 2028 and introduce them at NFL Honors
You must not have been on this website YT to say McMichael is out of no where. People who talk football like this group have been talking about him for more than 5 years. I brought up his name a number of years ago because of his stats as I reviewed all of the D-Lineman. I always thought he had a good case especially as I’ve seen others who seemed to have borderline cases get elected.
Maybe I noticed him more with my bias as a Longhorn fan but I grew more aware from the time I realized Dan Hampton was in the HOF I wasn’t too into HOF talk back than. He sure got in fast compared to Jack Youngblood. Hampton was never on my radar. Richard Dent was somewhat but I wasn’t sure he had a good enough case .Than he went in and I’m like why isn’t McMichael given even a sniff? But what really got me going was when Jimbo Covert was picked. Even though that was a different process it opened up a lot of eyes. It seems to have opened the door for lesser accolade players and shorter careers. I guess time will tell if that is a true statement.
Very thoughtful comments Justin, well said. Brian also good thoughts. One thought is I find it really hard to believe that a great player would never make it to single PB. I suppose it’s happened in positions where there’s a glut of talent in the League. And it may have happened in the old days more often without the exposure of today. The one who stands out the most to me is Jethro Pugh with the same sack total as Warren Sapp at 96.5. Goes to show how players on great teams can get overlooked. I can’t say if he was a HOFer. He may have been just very good like Charles Mann but not approaching that height. To tell you the truth I don’t know what the hell a HOFer looks like anymore. LOL! Maybe Deion has a point. :)
I won’t give my opinion on these players other than to say if I think they have a shot.
1. Bruno Banducci -no
2. Dick Barwegen – yes
3. Maxie Baughan – yes
4. Jim Benton – no
5. Gene Brito – no
6. Ed Budde – yes
7. Gary Collins – no
8. Lavern Dilweg – yes
9. Ox Emerson – no
10. Larry Grantham – yes
11. Leon Gray – no
12. Cornell Green – no
13. Billy Howton – yes
14. Harold Jackson – yes
15. Verne Lewellen – no
16. Eddie Meador – yes
17. John Niland – yes
18. Jimmy Patton – yes
19. Michael Dean Perry – no
20. Lou Rymkus – no
21. Del Shofner – no
22. Jim Ray Smith – no
23. Walt Sweeney – no
24. Lionel Taylor – no
25. Al Wistert – no
Justin here are a few more nuggets on powell
At The Time of Retirement AFL/NFL
8th in Receptions 479
5th in Receiving Yds 8046
3rd in Receiving Td’s #81
And i Fully agree with you justin that powell is a worthy hall of famer and a wrong that needed to be corrected .
Tony
1. Seems to me easley and Terrel davis opened up the shorter careers.
2. I didnt count bears fans and for the same reason college dont count either. If jim Plunkett makes the hall next year I would say the same thing. Raiders fans think he belongs even more than bears fans think mcmichael does. But no one outside of that group does.
Fact is 5 years ago nobody even bother to nominate mcmichael and with no change in his analysis came about due to non diagnostic reasons.
If you disagree tell me what changed?
Covert is not a change that helps him
Ro
ROBERT
powell does even better in career stats a few years before his retirement when he stopped putting up good numbers, he at one point was 5th in receptions
Wonder if parker making it hurt wistert. The hall got all that backlash for picking a pre 60s coach and then didn’t want 2 in the same year.
I saw itsaid that meador, anderson and Craig were the runner ups in which Case the queue is completely dead for next year. The fact that mcmichael (sympathy vote) and gradishar (who I think was practically a sure thing. In retrospect I think the committee saw Powell as the only open pick. In which case we have 5 potential candidates who finished as runner up in this process with no queue. Meaning this is anyone’s chance. Combined with the parker factor this year picking a 60s player was the closest to super senior that might have been possible.
It will take one more vote before I’m convinced that there is practically zero chance of a super senior not making it.
I agree YT … I still think Wistert can get his chance next year. Had Sharpe been elected, Dilweg might have advanced again but he is done for the moment.
Meador at least somewhat advanced but he also cancelled out Baughan.
We will see if an offensive lineman like Wistert, Jacoby or Kenn can advance next year …
1. Since 2 out of 3 of this years picks were not even semi finalists last year, it is once again possible that someone who is not even a semi finalist makes it next year. If this years surprises are a indicator of next year someone like Harvey Martin may make the hall next year and Ken Anderson gets the Kooch treatment.
2. The one thing other thing to consider the Maxie Baughan death probably affected this election (possible that McMichael doesn’t make it without it) . There is a possibility that his discussion was mostly about appearances. While making the hall a year after one dies is terrible imagery the worst possible imagery is to do it within days after he died and possibly even before his funeral. There could have theoretically been decided that he should make it this year but we have to wait until we don’t look that bad. Or conversely it could have been decided not to look at him this year at all and possibly even next year till when it doesn’t look so bad anymore. Or next year they can decide to give him sympathy treatment. Point being his case next year is a complete wild card in what is turning into a wild card process.
The only prediction I think has any likelihood going for next years seniors class, if someone who is close to making it get ALS they will make it.
SInce everyone else was giving out grades
Gradishar A+ Howley A
Powell B+
Riley B
Klecko C-
McMichael F (would vote no)
A means he belongs and the hall should be embarrassed for them not to be in.
B means he improves the hall by being there
C borderline, wouldvote yes to put them in but not my picks, (in the yes/no up/down vote, the yes vote is not just to clear out the backlog to put in someone who I want)
D vote is someone who I don’t think belongs but the turning him down is not worth wasting the spot and giving him the opportunity to steal the spot another year from someone who truly belongs
F would vote no
Tony: How do you figure neither Lewellen nor Wistert have shots, especially if a super senior slot is mandated past next year?
Also, I could make the argument Lewellen is the best player in the entire senior pool not in.
I think Craig, Anderson, Sharpe (remaining final 6 from 2023/2024 elections) all have great chances for 2025 finalists…super seniors plus Meador and Baugham seem to have none..and yep very possible a dark horse jumps from semi-finalists into final 12 for 2025 and gets elected…will need to watch list of 12 finalists for 2025 and see if we can pick up on any candidate late pushes as was case for McMichael this year.
Paul, exactly how do Anderson, Sharpe and Craig all have great shots at being finalists after being top six, but that none of that same courtesy is extended to Meador?
It’s because voters favor more recent players
And yet, Sharpe was left off the top six and not selected. Art Powell was selected, Gradishar is older than Craig and Sharpe.
Meador has been top 12 each of the last two years, and was top six this year. Whether he gets inducted while he’s alive is one question, but he undoubtedly has support from people like Gosselin and I’m guessing Kaufman, too, since Kaufman presented him.
The only question I have is if he lives to see induction day. It’s hard to dispute that his case has traction.
sharpe is 2x finalist, plus Gradishar played into 1980s, Meador is in mix, Powell was odd unique selection, craig Anderson and sharpe may not all get in 2025 but will soon
I think Powell being selected this year, plus Howley being selected for 2023, and Meador being top six, tells me the window is closing, but isn’t completely closed, on 1960s/1970s era seniors.
I still think Baughan, despite not being top six this year, is a name to watch for 2025. The reason I say this is, as I’ve said before, think of the modern era logjam with Cris Carter/Andre Reed/Tim Brown. Eventually, all three got elected and in that order, and I think it’s only a matter of time until the Reggie Wayne/Torry Holt/Andre Johnson logjam is figured out. I have no doubt all three will be enshrined, just don’t know when or what the pecking order is.
Now, with the linebackers, Chuck Howley was nominated last year, Gradishar this year, I’m not going to write off Baughan just yet.
Am I overly confident on Meador’s chances? No, but I can’t say his case has stalled.
Now, with the super seniors, at least among this current committee, their cases have stalled, but they can easily be revived if we all keep pushing and lobbying for a mandated super senior slot past 2025. So, they have no hope as currently is, but people like Judge, Kaufman, Turney aren’t going to let the super senior cases die completely, and neither will diehards like myself.
Great discussion guys … It takes young presenters who love and try to honor NFL history to get through to other younger writer-voters for super-seniors but as long as Porter stays with the three senior format, these guys have a chance after Sharpe is elected I believe …
Its interesting that Lewis got closer to election in January than he got this past week, so maybe a Craig, Anderson or Meador can get in next year before the format is extended into 2026. If they keep the semifinalist list at 25 again instead of 31, there might not be major surprises like this year.
Who would thought that Kooch would have missed the finalist list?
Though I basically graded nominees in terms of the election process, even if I dont agree with a player making the HOF, I still recognize that a player had a great career and has a case to present. The right person presenting that player can be all the difference. It worked with Floyd Little.
Just think, had Craig gotten a nomination, could have possibly helped Anderson or Brown for next year but maybe another back like Foreman or Gilchrist emerges? Although its doubtful another AFL player follows Powell as a nominee in this voting process.
only reason semi-finalist list was 31 was because of ties, which when you only have 12 people voting is going to happen.
I think Jacoby advancing cost BobK his slot..remember only 12 voters so as few as 1 or 2 votes can change who appears in semi-finalist and finalist lists.
And seems to me at least going in with info we have at this point (2023 and 2024 elections) that Craig Anderson Sharpe Meador would seem to be the favorites with Baugham another possibility. Among the 2023 and 2024 finalists they seem to have the momentum. But like we saw with 2024 elections we will have to watch for any surprise movement/hype around other seniors that push them into 2025 finalist lists.
BTW Porter has suggested possible changes to the timeline of the senior and coach-contributor election processes for 2025, mirror those of the modern candidates election: semifinalists announced in late Nov 2024, finalists in late Dec 2024, have both of those committees meet in person in mid January to elect finalists, next day the full selection committee would meet to vote on those plus complete the modern elections. Turn the current one day election meeting in mid January, to a two day event. But as of right now that is just an idea – one that in many ways makes sense to give those committee more time to consider and research candidates (its currently about a one month process).
But for now, class of 2024 election will be held in mid Jan, in person in Atlanta (easier than Canton for voters to fly into/out of (with Zoom option available for those unable to attend). Results to be announced on NFL Honors show the Thursday before SB.
I think for the most part, most of us on this site did a pretty good job of noticing the hot candidates once they reached the semifinalist stage, though I dont think anyone anticipated Art Powell getting a nomination. Like you said Paul, those five should get alot of attention next year and we will see if Lewis, Wistert or others can keep momentum going. With Lewis not making the final six, maybe he gets thrown into the pile now but it will be interesting seeing other last second modern candidates take momentum into their first year as senior eligibles. Could Leslie O Neal shake things up for the seniors next year?
Congrats to Jeff for being probably the first one out of all us predicting McMichael to be a nominee. I looked over the threads again and alot of us knew he had the sentimental factor that just kept building …
If Lewis did not shake up the seniors this year, O’Neal certainly won’t. Lets remember Everson Walls and Clay Matthews Jr advanced into modern final 15 in recent years during last year as modern candidate (Matthews Jr made final 10)… Walls made final 12 seniors in 2022 election and Matthews Jr as semi-finalist, likely both have potential path to future election one day but neither has “shook up” the seniors queue.
I think Lewis faces some push back from a group of senior voters who did not think he should jump to the line of seniors in same calendar year when his case was just heard by modern selection committee-but he has strong case and voters are aware of his resume so its likely he in on their radar for future election.
‘And seems to me at least going in with info we have at this point (2023 and 2024 elections) that Craig Anderson Sharpe Meador would seem to be the favorites with Baughan another possibility.’
So, Paul, who do you think has greater momentum between Meador and Baughan? Not who do you think is more deserving, who would you reckon has greater momentum?
If everybody threw their support behind Gradishar, that might explain Baughan not getting top six.
But if Howley’s gone and Gradishar’s gone, Baughan is what’s left.
However, Meador being top 12 the last two years and top six this year is something to watch. There very well might be people on the committee who will want to push for him if he’s still with us in August 2024.
I would give close edge to Meador
Brian, my early McMichael pick was kind of a cynical one. I looked at the list and thought, “well, two out of three will definitely be guys who have a bit of a media following but I think are woefully unqualified, so why not Carl Banks and McMichael?” It turned out that McMichael had a bit sentimental push as well. In retrospect, although I think McMichael had one of the weakest cases of the 12, I might’ve been a little unfair – tackles and sacks and consistency are impressive. Still, I don’t know how I feel about someone jumping the line presumably due to health, especially after not being much on the radar.
I certainly hope Meador does indeed have some momentum for his case. I feel like it will be a clean slate next year though. We could easily end up with Anderson, Craig and Meador not making the cut while two guys who werent even nominated this year end up in Canton (I’d love to think it could be, say, Verne Lewellen and Lemar Parrish…but Jim Plunkett and Dwight Clark are more likely).
Absolutely not on Carl Banks, good pass rusher, but that’s about it. I’d venture he’d be a poorer selection than Mongo if that day ever came.
‘I certainly hope Meador does indeed have some momentum for his case. I feel like it will be a clean slate next year though. We could easily end up with Anderson, Craig and Meador not making the cut while two guys who werent even nominated this year end up in Canton (I’d love to think it could be, say, Verne Lewellen and Lemar Parrish…but Jim Plunkett and Dwight Clark are more likely).’
There are arguments for both sides. I think if Meador is still alive a year from now, that could be a good sign, as some might want to push him due to age. If he passes, I’m really not sure. While the top six was drastically different from last year, Gradishar finally got the nod after being close a year ago, so it wouldn’t be unprecedented for top six to be a finalist the next year.
I don’t think we’re getting both Baughan and Meador, but I have good reason to think we can get either one.
And please, just no on Jim Plunkett. I see enough of that on Twitter. Raider fans should be pushing Daryle Lamonica, Dave Grayson and Lester Hayes, not Jim Plunkett.
Thought this might chart (Since Marshall Goldberg was rejected ) might help illuminate the chances for future seniors based on how long ago they played.
(lower case means rejected)
Ignoring centennial class, what year the senior pick since first being eligible as a senior (pretending they always used the current rules for senior eligibility)
DICK STANFEL 33 2016
ART POWELL 31 2024
Dick Stanfel 29 2012
JACK BUTLER 28 2012
CHUCK HOWLEY 25 2023
JERRY KRAMER 25 2018
LES RICHTER 24 2011
JOHNNY ROBINSON 23 2019
RANDY GRADISHAR 16 2024
KEN RILEY 15 2023
DAVE ROBINSON 14 2013
DICK LeBEAU 13 2010
DREW PEARSON 13 2021
MICK TINGELHOFF 12 2015
CLIFF BRANCH 12 2022
FLOYD LITTLE 10 2010
JOE KLECKO 10 2023
ROBERT BRAZILE 9 2018
Bob Hayes 9 2009
CLAUDE HUMPHREY 8 2014
CHRIS HANBURGER 8 2011
KEN STABLER 7 2016
CURLEY CULP 7 2013
KENNY EASLEY 5 2017
STEVE MCMICHAEL 5 2024
Claude Humphrey 3 2009
RAY GUY 3 2014
Going into 25 class here is where this years and last years semi finalists rank (pretending the seniors committee always existed as is from the beginning of the hall, and not counting Kooch’s no games played season)
Cecil Isbell 58
Al Wistert 49
Eddie Meador 30
Maxie Baughan 26
Otis Taylor 25
Tommy Nobis 24
Bob Kuechenberg 17
Ken Anderson 14
Everson Walls 7
Roger Craig 7
Joe Jacoby 7
Sterling Sharpe 6
Albert Lewis 2
Interesting after just one election of two surprising selections that some suggest it’s a trend to continue when the actual 2 yr trend is electing expected seniors from the queue is 4 out of 6. Powell and McMicheal are unique resumes not easily found again in the seniors pool
Paul this year, they didn’t just ignore the trend they murdered it.
Powell and McMicheal were not even semi finalists last year. Then Kooch misses being a semi finalist. On a smaller note Sharpe goes down and is not a runner up, and Craig goes from missing the semi finalist to being a runner up. Besides Kooch; Isbell Nobis, and Walls make a step backwards.
Next year if they go for the trends, the 3 best picks are Sharpe, Meador, and Anderson. The only players to be a finalist both years and be a runner up. My prediction going into next year is that will not be the class.
Very rarely do seniors get rejected.
‘Interesting after just one election of two surprising selections that some suggest it’s a trend to continue when the actual 2 yr trend is electing expected seniors from the queue is 4 out of 6. Powell and McMicheal are unique resumes not easily found again in the seniors pool’
I’m a skeptic/cynic about the Senior selections at worst, a cautious optimist at best.
I think for 2025, you see at least Senior nominated who’s been close and knocking at the door the last couple years, but a spot or two might go to somebody who came out of absolutely nowhere and no one is giving a thought to.
Robert
Benton is by far the greatest receiver not named Hutson, in the first 3 decades of the NFL.
When he retired he was 2nd to Hutson in receptions, receiving Yards, receiving touchdowns, yards from line of scrimmage, and 4th in all purpose yards and total touchdowns.
His 44 season has to rank as one of the most interesting in the NFL Hutson once again got the receiving triple crown and Benton finished 2nd in all 3 categories
Benton is my top pick for a Super Senior
Would love more support for kicker/regular player combos Gino Cappelletti, Pat Harder, and Ward Cuff (between being half special teamers and super seniors I don’t see how the later 2 make it any team in foreseeable future)
the current 12 member seniors committee has been at this just two years (and we have just two years of semi-finalists and finalists)…perhaps it will take them more time to shake out the contenders, which have support/strong cases, which do not. I think we have fallen into the trap a looking at modern process (with years of large numbers of same voters and results in terms of semifinalists, finalists) and have expected that senior process will look the same and have a solid defined queue.
Its interesting that since the Centennial Class Of 2020 there have been 18 seniors nominated–hopefully elected–to the HOF, if so, these are the teams with the most representatives
Bears — 3 players
Cowboys — 3 players
Raiders — 2 players
Jets — 2 players
By Position
Wide Receiver — 5
Def Tackle — 3
Off Tackle — 3
Safety — 3
LB — 2
Corner — 1
Def End — 1
Obviously, offensive guards, centers and nose tackle are not a high priority with voters.
Despite great pass rushers at DE in Brito, Katcavage, Martin, Hardman, Bacon, Baker and Alzado, only Sprinkle elected so far.
With three safeties elected, hopefully Meador isnt going through voter fatigue.
The Bears selections are controversial to say the least. With the city’s army of sportswriters, dont be surprised if cases for Fortunato, Hilgenberg or Marshall join the upcoming semifinal lists, especially if the three senior format is renewed starting in 2026. Maybe a solid queue will be settled by then?
Ken Anderson seems to get close but no cigar. Could 2025 be his year? I still believe Sharpe will make it next year.
Paul: that is an excellent point. The voting trends on the modern candidates released by Turney earlier this summer show similar inconsistencies. For example, take Tom Mack (an 11-time pro bowler):
1978: last year as a player
1984: eligible for HOF
1986: first-time finalist – in second cut
1987: misses finalists
1988: second-time finalist – in first cut
1989: third-time finalist – in first cut
1990: misses finalists
1991: misses finalists
1992: fourth-time finalist – survives to final up/down vote and fails to get 80%
1993: fifth-time finalist – in first cut
1994: sixth-time finalist – in second cut
1995: seven-time finalist – in first cut
1996: eighth-time finalist – in second cut
1997: ninth-time finalist – in first cut
1998: tenth-time finalist – in second cut
1999: eleventh-time finalist – inducted
If this happened now, there would be an outcry from everyone on this board and most of the causal fans as well.
There are tons of reasons for the differences between the voting trends in 80/90s and today. But, as Paul notes, the longer track record is certainly at least one of the causes.
Let’s give this panel some more time to see how things develop.
Just that myself (and perhaps a few others here) figured based on 2020 centennial class finalists not elected, and their selection of 2023 finalists (and the top 6 on that list) that senior committee members would have quickly established a queue-apparently we were wrong on that count and likely had an invalid assumption too early in the new process. I still think Powell and McMichael were very unique cases, not so sure those selections are going to set a trend but its fair to consider that until we see the 2025 final 12 we won’t really know whose cases are gaining traction – especially any new surprising additions. For now I would still place highest odds on Craig, Anderson, Meador, Sharpe-followed by Baughan and Lewis as favorites, and if I were to select one of those with best chances it would be Craig. (and frankly any 3 of those would be a great 2025 seniors class in my mind)
I still never understood how Craig, Jacoby, Lester Hayes and Kuechenberg did not get elected during the The first 20 years of their eligibility. When I watched them play, they were HOfamers and they all played for high profile teams with regular season and post-season success. Usually a good recipe for election.
Voters in the 70s to early 2000s simply ignored many deserving modern candidates and in many years did not even fill all of the available modern slots-leaving many to fall into the seniors pool, current modern voters doing much better and senior committee working to correct decades of errors and getting those and others finally in PFHOF
paul
Think Kooch also is a favorite for next year
I expect at least 1 slot to not be from your favorite list plus kooch.
Since there are now 3 slots I think they are less worried about consensus and some are trying to get in their pet candidates that don’t have a consensus for at least 1 slot. I think we may have saw that this year. I expect at the very least a mild surprise next year (EG Walls), with the strong possibility of someone making who was not a semi finalist this year or last, and even an outside chance of another Powell like out of nowhere candidate who was never a senior semi finalist.
There is also the possibility that with the threat of a guaranteed super senior pick for years, they pick one to avert punitive action that will “waste” more modern senior slots if affected by a mandatory senior slot. 1 senior this year and avoid 1 per year. Once they show they can elect a super senior it makes it harder to mandate them in the future.
Bill
it now not hard to see why these candidates were not picked
Craig clearly does not have rushing stats worthy of a hall of fame runningback and many reporters only care about rushing stats for a runningback
Jacoby has only 4 pro bowls for a statsless position, 4 pro bowls has never been enough, only Boselli (who made it after Jacoby was no longer eligible) and covert have less then 6 pro bowls.
Lester Hayes has a short career plus stickum. He could probably overcome one of them but not both
Kuechenberg plays guard and doesn’t have great post seasons honors (meaning hall of fame worthy where when you read them you say he belongs without asking who it is) for the most unforgiving statless position (look at Steve Wisniewski with much better post season honors who was only once a semi finalist). Or look a Ruben Brown would a 9 time pro bowler be completely ignored (not once even a semi finalist) at any other position regardless of his lack of first team all pro. Kooch’s last year on the ballot Randall McDaniel made it on his 3rd try not even making the finalists the first time. Look at Fancana and Shields both who would have made it much faster if not being guards. If true that Kooch was unliked by reporter, like I read; there is certainly room to ignore him, he is not Terrell Owens worthy of the hall. Dennis Harrah and Kooch have almost identical post season honors, if one doesn’t want Kooch it is easy to say he is not worthy. In 2001 Kooch’s 1st year as a finalist he made the final candidates and was voted down in the up down vote. All of what I said before makes it that only 20% of voters had to fall into this paragraph. After being defeated once it is not so crazy they didn’t want to waste a spot again.
YP-All of what you said may be true- But I bet all 4 get in that I mentioned about in the next 25 years. They will all eventually get the Jerry Krammer type vote. By the way, he only had 3 PB’s. Its just too bad they were not voted in when they should have been. Its what creates Senior logjams now.
Let’s be clear here- Craig, Jacoby, Kuechenberg have not been picked YET, yes all their resumes have flaws but so did Riley, Klecko,Powell,McMichael (and one could point out so did Howley and Gradishar given how long they waited to be selected)… having flaws and not being picked does not mean they are not deserving or will never be elected-just that voters have preferred the cases of other candidates, heck among the 30+ semifinalists for 2024, Craig made final 6-that means he has support of voters and whether selected for 2025 or not, he’s clearly on track for selection very soon. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss their resumes or chances outright.
You want proof that Bill Belichick is a football historian check out what Gary Myers wrote in an article about voting process for Sports Illustrated
I was also part of the 25-member Blue Ribbon panel that selected the seniors, contributors and coaches last month. The committee was comprised of 13 voters from the 48 regular selectors, seven Hall of Famers and five historians, including Patriots coach Bill Belichick. I sat next to him for the more than 10-hour meeting and I saw the very personable side of him that he rarely shows in his press conferences.
He helped educate me on the players from the 1920s, 30s and 40s and I helped educate him on the HOF process. He was studying film on the seniors right up until the meeting started at 8 a.m. Is anybody surprised?
Not me, Belichick donated his large collection of football books to the HOF … I hope to see these books someday when I visit up there again.
Here’s what I’m 100% thinking, remember when we all thought last year that the next three would be gradishar kuechenberg sharpe and only gradishar made it to the final 3 while kuechenberg didn’t make the final 12 and sharpe got eliminated from 12 to 6, which most likely tells me that sharpe will be one of the three for 2025 , the other will be maxie baughan and the last one another offense
player ,but I’m thinking it’s either 2 offense 1 defense or 3 offense , 2 defense 1 offense or even 3 defense, I’m thinking it will be mainly focused on offense since 5/6 spots have gone on the defensive side.
Craig Sharpe Baughan/Meador could be class
Funny you should mention Baughan Paul, i was thinking the same exact thing that baughan will be one of the favorites for 2025 since Howley and Gradishar got in the previous two years, im convinced on Baughan and Sharpe being the 2025 seniors but id rather see Meador get the third spot while he’s still alive and able to enjoy it
If I had to guess I would pick Craig (who I saw had longest conversation and was not a negative one), Baughan (who I think had no chance this year due to his death but may gain a sentimental vote next year), and a surprise pick.
Assuming they go with a surprise pick like who didn’t make the semi finalist this past year or the final 6 (Kooch) the year before, any guess who they might pick?
Exactly yt no one really knows who they will pick for next year but if I had a pick I go with either of these trios. Baughan Craig Kuechenberg or Baughan Kuechenberg Sharpe
Of course no one know, my question is among the senior voters is there anyone’s top candidate that they always talk about that is not in the room. meaning that if they can get in the room they will be argued strongly. I’m assuming one of the senior voters strongly supported Powell last year and then pnce he got in the room argued him in. Does anyone know who any senior voter really likes but can’t get into the room?
beyond the names we have seen as semi-finalists for class of 2023 and 2024 elections (only years that had that stage and made public) its hard to know if there are others that a voter(s) are pushing for we have not seen listed yet…given that there are only 12 voters, the fact that each of those lists were above 25 due to ties, it suggests even one vote would make a player a senior semi-finalist, so likely right now those are the candidates pushed by voter(s)
RIP Eddie Meador
So close to election. Hopefully he isnt ignored next year …
Happy 60th birthday today (Thurs Sept 7th) to the PFHOF
For Tony, Paul or Andy, are we sticking with this thread for the modern candidates as well? Another thread for comments on the upcoming season?
I am okay with this one but just curious …
Speaking of the season opener, the Chiefs could have had that game last night even without Kelce. The dropped balls were bad and hardly any touches for the running backs. The Lions did a good job running the ball but their pass rush was held alot without the calls. Would have been more a stink about it had they lost …
I was thinking once 2024 modern preliminary list is released we would start anew with fresh topic
That’s a good idea Paul one that I will endorse 100%
If (and its a big if since Hall isn’t always consistent or forthcoming in advance about timing of their announcements) PFHOF sticks with schedule from last year, we should see list of class of 2024 preliminary nominees (100+) early next week
Here’s the problem I have with mandating one senior slot a super senior the voters never saw those guys play nor have they heard of them that’s why I think a special election for pre 60s candidates is a better idea with voters like Rick Gosselin and Clark Judge and historians like Bill Belichick Chris Willis John Turney and Ken Crippen like the Blue Ribbon Panel that elected the Centennial Class
The Pro Football Hall of Fame should have been founded earlier then we wouldn’t be talking about Lavvie Dilweg Verne Lewellen Ox Emerson Cecil Isbell and Al Wistert not being in the Hall of Fame
100% agree with you Andy!! The question is how much earlier?
Wow … Rodgers not only gets hurt for NY but its feared to be an achilles injury. MRI tomorrow but he may be done for the year. We will see …
Josh Allen was terrible tonight but without Rodgers, doubtful the Jets will contend with Wilson. Can he turn his career around?
As a big Jets fan; have gone to over 100 games,this has shades of 1999 again. Jets have the talent to win in playoffs. Honestly give Brady,Ryan and Rivers calls. Worst comes to worst call Flacco for a third stint. Wilson is a game manager at best at the moment.
NHL was established in 1917 and HHOF in 1943…. NFL was established in 1920, should have had HOF by 1950. That would have allowed for 13 classes of PFHOFer (60+) before actual PFHOF first class in 1963… thats 60+ players coaches contributors that would have been in and not taking slots for another decade of catch up.
If senior committee voters listen their peers in the room and also historians, they should be able to give due consideration to super seniors, how many watched Powell play let they elected him because a push got him into the room and a great presentation was made (same for coaches-contributors with Parker). But if they are not going to listen and dismiss super seniors outright than Hall should and will mandate a slot and force them to pick one, and their are committee members prepared to make cases for them.
I don’t see Jets reaching out to old broken down QBs like Flacco, Rivers, and Ryan – plus no way Brady getting behind that OL. I think they ride Wilson as far as they can, its not easy nor are then any great QBs just sitting out there, more likely they look for a #2 QB to fill that role.
I think they will sign Flacco two but they should try to get Biscuit from Pittsburgh. He is still young and can have some good young players to work with, but the line has to protect whoever comes in. Wilson gets another chance though …
Allocating a slot for a super senior sounds good on paper but I expect it would just result in an underwhelming or unqualified candidate (most likely Cecil Isbell). If they did it for three years I’d have a little more confidence that Emerson, Dilweg, Lewellen or Wistert would make it but I don’t imagine they’d have much interest in doing something like that more than once.
I’m not a Jets fan per se, but I’m pulling for them to finally see some glory….and last night’s episode was sickening. Just horrible luck for this franchise. My gut tells me Rodgers will get back on the field but you have to wonder what kind of player he’ll be.
Sorry Brad. I thought about you when the injury happened. Last night was the only night I ever rooted for the Jets in my life. lol
What do you know I can post again. Everytime I really get into the discussion I get an error message. :( I guess I’ll mostly just follow.
1. Paul the football hall of fame beat the baseball and basketball hall of fame in regards to when they opened, The Baseball hall opened in 36 while the NL starts in 1876. While the basketball hall opened in 59 and was designed to include all levels of play so should have started decades earlier. There is no Football hall of famer snub comparable to Ross Barnes or Leroy Edwards. (Benny Friedman would have been the last super snub)
2. they should use a floating time line for super seniors so 50 years after they retired they should switch to the super seniors. So a player would get 20 years as a modern candidate, 30 as a senior and then they move to the Super Senior. Elect 2 Seniors and 1 Super Senior and everything should work itself out.
Correction I meant 50 years after they first became eligible as a modern
Using the 50 year model (55 years after retiring) Here are all the Super Seniors ever elected to the hall of fame
Art Powell (Assumingly he is elected next year it would be his first year of eligibility as a super senior in my system)
Dick Stanfel
Bobby Dillon
Ed Sprinkle
Mac Speedie
Benny Friedman
Duke Slater
Fritz Pollard
If they keep the 1 year floating Super Senior I doubt they will ever run short and Dilwig, Lewellen, Benton, Emerson, Wistert etc would all likely get a fair shake. Something like this keeps the door open but, doesn’t make guaranteed seats for as long as it open, and eternal doom after the board decides enough.
Here would be the new super seniors for 25, not exactly candidates who will get modern era bias.
Jack Kemp
Roger Brown
Stew Barber
Wayne Hawkins
The year after would have (only Meador has a decent chance under the current system)
Gino Cappelletti
Eddie Meador
Dave Grayson
Jimmy Orr
Jerry Mays
Ken Gray
E.J. Holub
Fred Arbanas
Gene Mingo
I think the 2 senior and 1floating super senior candidate idea would wiled the best results in the long run if not tampered with. The problem is not the pre 50’s game was different but voters who never saw them play, that problem will move as voters leave the seniors pool and newer voters come in.
of those you mentioned YT id support the Following Gray Grayson Meador and maybe Roger Brown
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/09/13/players-to-remove-from-the-hall-of-fame/
Jason Peters just signed with Seahawks. Once he plays a down he’ll prolong his eligibility which will help out future classes. One less name on the ballot. I doubt he plays after this year. So he will be eligible in 2029. Not bad for an undrafted player.
My guess is that if the Hall mandates one super senior a year (pre 1960), we will see the remaining 2020 centennial class finalists elected in some order: Dilweg, Emerson, Lewellen, Isbell, Wistert – a lot will depend on whether Hall Board approvals for just 3 years (2026-2028) or a few additional years. With Meador and Baughan (both from 1960s) still at risk of waiting, if Hall goes 1970+ with the remaining 2 slots per year-which given their 2023 and 2024 selections (6 total with 4 primarily from 1970s/80s) is a real concern.
The floating super senior Idea is one way we can be sure that super seniors are not short changed. If we push pre 60’s and they only give 3 years, I doubt the remaining will ever make it. A floating date is an easier sell, and can last as long as the hall is doing 3 per year (which I expect will go on for at least a decade).
Robert
I was just taking players with 5 pro bowl and added Jimmy Orr (who finished his career 9th in receiving yards) and Gene Mingo as the first black kicker who twice led the afl in scoring.
I was trying to find anyone who someone could possibly suggest (sure I missed someone) (though prefer everyone I said to Mongo)
‘Allocating a slot for a super senior sounds good on paper but I expect it would just result in an underwhelming or unqualified candidate (most likely Cecil Isbell). If they did it for three years I’d have a little more confidence that Emerson, Dilweg, Lewellen or Wistert would make it but I don’t imagine they’d have much interest in doing something like that more than once.’
At the very least, the three seniors per year has a trial run through 2025. I fail to see why a mandated super senior slot would only be a one-time thing.
‘There is no Football hall of famer snub comparable to Ross Barnes or Leroy Edwards. (Benny Friedman would have been the last super snub)’
Chris Willis named Verne Lewellen the retroactive NFL MVP for 1929 and 1930. Cliff Christl speculates Lewellen would’ve won it then if the AP voted on such an award.
Verne Lewellen is the best player in the entire senior pool not in. I said what I said.
‘ My guess is that if the Hall mandates one super senior a year (pre 1960), we will see the remaining 2020 centennial class finalists elected in some order: Dilweg, Emerson, Lewellen, Isbell, Wistert – a lot will depend on whether Hall Board approvals for just 3 years (2026-2028) or a few additional years. With Meador and Baughan (both from 1960s) still at risk of waiting, if Hall goes 1970+ with the remaining 2 slots per year-which given their 2023 and 2024 selections (6 total with 4 primarily from 1970s/80s) is a real concern.’
I don’t think the door’s closed on Baughan and Meador just yet.
‘The floating super senior Idea is one way we can be sure that super seniors are not short changed. If we push pre 60’s and they only give 3 years, I doubt the remaining will ever make it. A floating date is an easier sell, and can last as long as the hall is doing 3 per year (which I expect will go on for at least a decade).’
Lewellen, Emerson, Dilweg, Wistert are the big four for me. Jim Benton would also be an excellent choice and wouldn’t be opposed to Beattie Feathers.
Isbell was good, but his career being so short has me drawn to others instead.
Isbell and Feathers BOTH played 54 regular season games. Though Isbell also had 3 playoff games
Isbell had 2 historic seasons to Feathers 1
Isbell was a 4 time all star (the ordinal nfl all star game overlapped with his entire career ), No way Feathers would have been an all star 4 times
Isbell played 5 full seasons and Feathers 3
I’d like to see candidates make it to at least seven seasons. If Isbell played a little longer, he’d have my support. Feathers is very fringe, but he’d be the cutoff.
Lewellen, Emerson, Dilweg, Wistert are top four. Jim Benton and Riley Matheson also merit looks among super seniors, and would put Feathers ahead of Isbell, could be in or out with Feathers.
At least Isbell would be a better choice than Lou Rymkus, who was actually nominated by the seniors one time and rejected.
Porter expressed interest in mandating one super senior as part of 3 seniors per year for period 2026-2028 (proposal likely to be presented to Hall Board for approval in 2025 when current three year class of 3 seniors trial period will have ended)… hard to say if that proposal extends past 2028…but guessing if in place the 3 super seniors elected 2026-2028 MIGHT be all we get..seems very unlikely if there is no mandated super senior for 2029+ that any more ever get in. Heck we are getting very close to players from 1960s getting passed over… I do think Meador and Baugham remain strong candidates with good (although uncertain) future prospects for election-just that with one super senior plus voters electing 1970s/80s seniors-a trend likely to continue-the clock is running for their chances..just saying,,,
So, if there are only super senior slots for three years, who do we think those three spots should go to?
For me, Lewellen and Emerson for sure, just not sure about Dilweg vs. Wistert.
Corey I support Lou Rymkus for the hall with his post playing career filling in the missing pieces. (My gut feeling is the seniors committee also put him forward as a combo candidate)
‘Corey I support Lou Rymkus for the hall with his post playing career filling in the missing pieces. (My gut feeling is the seniors committee also put him forward as a combo candidate)’
I could live with him being a Coach/Contributor nominee one year?
Getting a super senior slot as a player? No way. If Canton mandates a super senior slot and those soots go to people like Lou Rymkus and Cecil Isbell instead of Verne Lewellen and Ox Emerson, I will be so upset.
Id Support Blanton Collier over Rymkus for various reasons too many to mention on here
If we are talking 3 mandated super seniors, my prediction what voters will do is Isbell, Wistert, Dilweg….if it was my choice to make alone, I would go with Dilweg,Wistert, Emerson
I’m wondering what I’m missing, as a staunch Lewellen advocate, that I see many people advocate for Dilweg over Lewellen.
If it were up to me, both would be in. However, if only one can make it, I regretfully have to omit Dilweg.
If a mandated super senior spot does come, then I will be on an all-out campaign for Lewellen, and I’m trying to do what I can to win Dilweg supporters over on Lewellen.
This isn’t a question of if I think Dilweg belongs, I think he does. The question is if only one is chosen between him and Lewellen, and Dilweg over Lewellen, I just don’t see it.
Here are the 20’s/30s all decade members who would qualify as super seniors
Hunk Anderson 1920’s ADT
Frank Cope 1930’s ADT
George Christensen 1930’s ADT
Lavern Dilweg 1920’s ADT
Grover Ox Emerson 1930s ADT
Charles Goldenberg 1930’s ADT
Beattie Feathers 1930’s ADT
Cecil Isbell 1930’s ADT
Bill Lee 1930’s ADT
George Svendsen 1930s ADT
Gaynell Tinsley 1930s ADT
I fail to see how Verne Lewellen wasn’t all-Decade – First-Team All-Pro from 1926-1929, led the NFL in touchdowns in 1928, Chris Willis named him the retroactive NFL MVP for 1929 – the year the Packers won their first championship.
Lewellen was the focal point of Curly Lambeau’s game plan, and maybe his most shining moment came that year, 1929, against Benny Friedman of the Giants, playing quarterback for the 20-6 win.
In fact, I could argue Lewellen should be in off his punting alone, but adding his offensive impact in only adds to that, suggesting his domination and that you could say Lewellen belongs even if you’re a small Hall person
good points all around on lewellen corey, id like to add some other stats on ole verne
5th in Packers Rushing Touchdowns 37
12th in Total Touchdowns 51
Lewellen is the FIRST with over 50 TDs … should have been elected by 1970.
I’ve learned this from Chris Willis on 51 touchdowns attributed to Lewellen, which was an NFL record until Don Hutson broke it.
“Touchdowns, Hall of Fame Backs, Who Played, 1920-1945
(Halfbacks, Quarterbacks, Fullbacks, played Two-Way Era, 23 players)
Verne Lewellen- 51 TDs (105 games)
Johnny Blood- 49 (137 games)
Bill Dudley- 44 (90 games)
Clarke Hinkle- 44 (113 games)
Dutch Clark- 42 (75 games)
George McAfee- 39 (75 games)
Ernie Nevers- 38 (54 games)
Ken Strong- 34 (131 games)
Red Grange- 32 (96 games)
Cliff Battles- 31 (60 games)
Paddy Driscoll- 31 (118 games)
Tony Canadeo – 31 (116 games)
Jimmy Conzelman- 26 (104 games)
Bronko Nagurski- 25 (97 games)
Tuffy Leemans- 20 (80 games)
Ace Parker – 20 (68 games)
Benny Friedman – 18 (81 games)
Fritz Pollard – 12 (49 games)
Joe Guyon – 10 (46 games)
Curly Lambeau – 12 (77 games)
Sammy Baugh – 9 (165 games)
Arnie Herber – 7 (129 games)
Jim Thorpe – 6 (52 games)
Sid Luckman – 6 (128 games)
[Note: Only Steve Van Buren had more TDs (77 TDs; 83 games) than Lewellen, but his rookie year was in 1944] [Marion Motley had 39 career TDs; 105 games]”
This was from a 2023 article from Packers historian Cliff Christl:
“Tom Brady, perhaps the most dominant player in league history, had a .754 winning percentage in his 333 starts. But the Packers’ .730 winning percentage with Lewellen in a starring role was better than Joe Montana’s .713 and Peyton Manning’s .702 as starting quarterbacks; and better than Bart Starr’s .618 and the Packers’ .725 winning percentage during Don Hutson’s years.”
Christl wrote that Curly Lambeau picked his All-Time Packers Team after 1948. Johnny ‘Blood’ McNally wasn’t named to a halfback spot, nor was Arnie Herber nor Tony Canadeo. Christl also wrote Packers co-founder George Whitney Calhoun did the same thing, having seen almost every home game for 38 years, and almost every road game for 25 of them.
Christl said he ranks Lewellen above Dilweg because he dominated games with his punting and scoring prowess, while even though Dilweg did a lot of dirty, he hardly managed more than a catch per game, if that.
Again, I think both Lewellen and Dilweg should be in. If, realistically, only one is getting in, I’m pushing for Lewellen.
A reminder that class of 2024 modern candidates should be announced this coming week
The Lewellen vs Dilweg debate is a very interesting one, and strong cases can be made for both…and another important factor is that for some reason voters also support Isbell-which results in three Packers from the early decades of the NFL among a small number of pre 1950 candidates with cases, being from the same franchise actually hurts each of them as voters need to focus on one and clearly that presents a challenge.
And they could cancel each other out right paul?
How come Lewellen and Dilweg would cancel each other out, but Drew Pearson didn’t cancel Cliff Harris out for the 2020 Centennial class?
I’m going to go for it, I’m going to share a piece I’ve written on Verne Lewellen – not officially published anywhere, but written and shared. I’ve slightly tweaked my piece when proofreading.
The Green Bay Packers are well-represented in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but even one of the most storied franchises in the NFL and all of professional sports has some of its greats missing.
Before Aaron Rodgers led the sixth-seeded Packers to a Super Bowl Championship in 2010, before Brett Favre did the same in 1996, even before the Lombardi-era Packers had a dynasty in the 1960s, the Packers won the NFL Championship for three straight seasons from 1929-1931.
And for an institution that rewards winning, the Pro Football Hall of Fame has yet to open its doors to a man who’s been considered the centerpiece of that Packers three-peat: Verne Lewellen.
“Verne Lewellen should have been in there in front of me and (Cal) Hubbard,” said John “Blood” McNally, a charter member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 1963.
That’s certainly high praise, and it’s easy for a teammate to vouch for someone, but if Verne Lewellen passed McNally’s eyeball test, the stats also back up his statement.
Think of the NFL’s 60-minute men, think of the long lost two-way players the NFL once had, and yet, it’s argued Lewellen could maybe be enshrined as a running back or a punter, much less both.
The lone pure punter enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame is Ray Guy, while another former Raiders punter, Shane Lechler, also ought to be examined closer. Maybe they were the two greatest punters post-World War II, but long before either of them was Lewellen.
Per his Packers Hall of Fame page:
“Over the course of Lewellen’s nine-year career, NFL teams averaged fewer than 10 points a game. That placed a premium on his two specialties: punting and scoring touchdowns. In fact, punters might have been the most important players in the game. They dictated field position, quick-kicked on early downs and often punted from inside the 50-yard line because long field-goal attempts were rare.
In 1928, for example, Lewellen was unofficially credited with 136 punts, whereas the Packers’ Harry O’Boyle led the NFL with three field goals. Lewellen not only excelled at punting for distance but also had an uncanny knack for placing his punts out-of-bounds or deep inside enemy territory. According to unofficial and incomplete statistics listed in The Football Encyclopedia, published in 1994, Lewellen was clearly the NFL’s most prolific punter of the pre-statistical era with 681 punts for a 39.5-yard average.
While his average might pale in comparison to today’s punters, Lewellen stood only 10 or 11 yards behind center and often punted from inside an opponent’s 45-yard line. “No one who ever saw Lewellen kick could ever forget him,” Arthur Daley wrote in his New York Times column in 1962. “He was the finest punter these eyes ever saw.”
Think of how rapidly different football is now compared to 100 years ago. In a time when offense rules the day, scoring once was at a premium, and while the Raiders had the wisdom to view Ray Guy’s punting as a weapon, it can be argued how much of a weapon Lewellen’s leg was.
Packers historian Cliff Christl has done multiple pieces speaking highly of Lewellen:
“The graphic at the top – a copy of Packers stats guru Eric Goska’s recreated play-by-play – offers a small sampling of why that was likely the case. It shows the first half play-by-play of the upstart Packers’ 6-6 tie with the Chicago Bears on Sept. 26, 1926.
On the Packers’ first seven possessions, Lewellen punted on first down each time and then on second down when they had the ball for the eighth time. In all, he punted nine times on first down in the first half and 14 times total. He finished the game with 18 punts and the Packers tied the powerhouse Bears, 6-6.”
The only scoring drive the Packers had that game, Lewellen accounted for 41 of his team’s 50 yards, and the two ties the Packers had with the Bears, plus a loss to the Frankford Yellow Jackets, lifted the Yellow Jackets to the championship over the Bears that year.
More on Lewellen’s punting from Christl, talking about Knute Rockne’s strategy at Notre Dame, his 1921 Athletic Journal article called “Field Tactics”, including the “Danger Zone” between the goal line and 20-yard line, which called for a punt on first down, something that seems beyond bewildering in today’s game:
“Lambeau embraced the strategy and tried to capitalize on Lewellen’s talents in every way he could.
Not only was Lewellen capable of booming punts that could flip field position in an instant – in 1929, according to Goska, he was credited with 13 punts of 60 yards or more – he also was a master at placing coffin-corner kicks. To this end, 17 of Lewellen’s punts in 1929, or 20 percent, were kicked inside enemy territory. Nine were booted from inside the opponents’ 40-yard line. In fact, in the second game against the Chicago Cardinals that year, Lewellen punted with the ball on the Cardinals’ 19-yard line.
First, field goal attempts were no sure thing. The league leader that year had three. Second, there were no hashmarks. Following any punt that rolled out of bounds, the ball was placed just feet from the sideline, severely limiting the offense’s options.”
As a sportswriter who covers high school sports, I’ve had the pleasure of speaking with a former local athlete, Jon Goldsberry, who played collegiately at Purdue and made onto multiple NFL rosters, though he never got into a game. He once told me the punt is the most important play in football because of how much it determines field position.
Of all the masters of the punt, of those who turned it into a weapon, it seems few could actually rival the impact Lewellen consistently had with that leg and pinning he had.
More on Christl talking about Lewellen in 2023:
“Fifteen of Lewellen’s punts were marked inside the 10-yard line and 10 of those left the offense starting between its goal line and 5-yard line. That’s why Lambeau’s game plans were basically built around Lewellen’s punting and seizing the rare opportunities to score a touchdown.
“I still haven’t seen anyone who can punt the ball like Lewellen,” Blood told his biographer Ralph Hickok in the 1970s. “He kicked it deep and very high, so there was just never any chance for a return. They talk about the kicking game now, but it was even more important in some of those low-scoring games we had… If you could out-kick the other team by five or 10 yards, you could practically march for a touchdown just by exchanging punts. And he was accurate, just great at the coffin-corner kick.”
This much we know about Lewellen’s positioning on his punts. The Green Bay Press-Gazette explained that in the Packers’ normal Box formation during the Dunn years, Lewellen and Molenda, the fullback, were the deep backs, where they could take a handoff from Dunn or a direct snap. Presumably, Lewellen could also punt from that spot. What couldn’t be determined was whether at least some of his first- and second-down punts were executed like quick kicks.”
If punters have a responsibility today, think of the responsibility they had back then. No one player can win a football game or a championship by himself, but Lewellen not only had crucial punts that helped determine field position, that backed the other teams into unfriendly territory, think of how much he contributed as a runner after his contributions as a punter, what he did for that Packer offense, and if he could belong in Canton for his punting alone, think of what else he could do.
Different sources attribute 307 and 51 career touchdowns to Lewellen, the latter category being a record until Don Hutson, another largely forgotten great, broke it in 1941. Think of how well-known Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds are for the home run record, but few know about other great sluggers like Harry Stovey, Roger Connor and Gavvy Cravath – that’s Verne Lewellen and Don Hutson for touchdowns.
Chris Willis of NFL Films did a Pro Football Journal article on Lewellen in 2021, calling Lewellen one of the most impressive Two-Way Era players in NFL history.
Willis attributes 37 of Lewellen’s 51 touchdowns to rushing, 12 receiving, one fumble recovery and one interception return – 26 cited as go-ahead touchdowns, a sign the man could do it all, but then there’s this nugget on a man described by Willis as a scoring machine.
“Touchdowns, Hall of Fame Backs, Who Played, 1920-1945
(Halfbacks, Quarterbacks, Fullbacks, played Two-Way Era, 23 players)
Verne Lewellen- 51 TDs (105 games)
Johnny Blood- 49 (137 games)
Bill Dudley- 44 (90 games)
Clarke Hinkle- 44 (113 games)
Dutch Clark- 42 (75 games)
George McAfee- 39 (75 games)
Ernie Nevers- 38 (54 games)
Ken Strong- 34 (131 games)
Red Grange- 32 (96 games)
Cliff Battles- 31 (60 games)
Paddy Driscoll- 31 (118 games)
Tony Canadeo – 31 (116 games)
Jimmy Conzelman- 26 (104 games)
Bronko Nagurski- 25 (97 games)
Tuffy Leemans- 20 (80 games)
Ace Parker – 20 (68 games)
Benny Friedman – 18 (81 games)
Fritz Pollard – 12 (49 games)
Joe Guyon – 10 (46 games)
Curly Lambeau – 12 (77 games)
Sammy Baugh – 9 (165 games)
Arnie Herber – 7 (129 games)
Jim Thorpe – 6 (52 games)
Sid Luckman – 6 (128 games)
[Note: Only Steve Van Buren had more TDs (77 TDs; 83 games) than Lewellen, but his rookie year was in 1944] [Marion Motley had 39 career TDs; 105 games]”
That’s right, Marion Motley, who’d been suggested as the greatest football player of all-time by the late Paul Zimmerman, “Dr. Z,” had 12 fewer touchdowns as Verne Lewellen did in the same number of games played.
On rare occasions, the Pro Football Hall of Fame has honored super seniors in the 21st Century. This includes Duke Slater in 2020, potentially Al Wistert in the future and 2005 inductees Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard, who didn’t score the way Lewellen did. Also note two of the game’s all-time greats – Sammy Baugh and Dutch Clark, two members of the NFL’s 100th Anniversary Team, didn’t score the way that he did.
For five straight years, including those 1929 and 1930 NFL Championship teams, Lewellen led the Packers in scoring, led the NFL in touchdowns in 1928 and 1930 with nine each.
Think of All-Decade Teams, a big measuring stick and accolade to help advance one’s case, and also the ones who were on All-Decade Teams, but shouldn’t have been. Think of those not on All-Decade Teams, but should’ve been.
Some names not on All-Decade Teams stand out. Maxie Baughan should’ve been on the All-1960s Team, having gone to one fewer Pro Bowl in that decade (9) than the number of Pro Bowls every linebacker on that team went to in that decade (10), or Harold Jackson, who led the 1970s in receptions, yards and touchdowns, but was nowhere to be seen on that All-Decade Team.
The retroactive 1920s All-Decade Team sorely has one person missing from it: Lewellen.
Willis argues Lewellen was equal or better than the halfbacks from the 1920s All-Decade Team in Red Grange, Jim Thorpe, Curly Lambeau and Joe Guyon, all of whom have busts in Canton.
Red Grange’s pages on Pro-Football Reference list him as having been a First-Team All-Pro in 1930 and 1931. Pro-Football Reference and Wikipedia have Lewellen as a First-Team All-Pro from 1926-1929, with a lot indicating he should’ve received such an honor in 1930. Keep in mind the Galloping Ghost is one of the most famous football players of all-time and a charter member of the Hall of Fame.
In fact, Willis, a Dutch Clark biographer, would’ve retroactively named Verne Lewellen his NFL MVP for 1929 and 1930. Christl suspects Lewellen might’ve won it in those two years if the AP voted on the award.
And if the game’s greatest players have their defining game and signature moment, experts and historians seem to point to his team’s 1929 game against Friedman’s New York Giants as being Lewellen’s greatest achievement, with the Packers winning, 20-6, finishing 12-0-1 for their first NFL Championship.
Christl considered that 1929 victory “Next to the Ice Bowl” as the greatest in the history of the franchise, and probably did more for the team than any game leading up to the Ice Bowl.
Lewellen punted seven times in the Polo Grounds, according to Willis, citing him throwing a 4-yard touchdown pass as the quarterback in place of the injured Red Dunn. The Packers had 80 yards that led to a touchdown for a 14-6 lead, never looking back on it, with Lewellen generating 59 of those 80 yards – 14 by rushing, 15 by receiving, 30 from passing.
The Willis article cites different writings from New York about Lewellen’s impact in the game.
C.A. Lovett, New York Daily News, Nov. 25, 1929, wrote Lewellen “distinctly outshone Friedman – both at passing and ball carrying.”
Harold Burr, Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Nov. 25, 1929, “His passes were mostly perfection. If his foot wasn’t driving the Giants back, his arm was doing it.”
According to a Clark Judge State Your Case Piece on Lewellen on Talk of Fame in 2019: “In fact, when Curly Lambeau picked his all-Packers’ team following the 1948 season, he named Lewellen and Cecil Isbell as his two halfbacks over Hall-of-Famers Johnny Blood, Tony Canadeo and Arnie Herber.”
Christl himself wrote in 2018: “Actually, I believe Lewellen is one of a handful of players who deserves to be in the discussion about the greatest Packers player ever.”
Think of that. On a franchise that’s boasted NFL 100th Anniversary Team players such as Brett Favre, Don Hutson, Forrest Gregg and Reggie White, a 75th Anniversary Team member in Ray Nitschke, 50th Anniversary Team members Cal Hubbard and Jerry Kramer, plus a no-doubt Hall of Famer, maybe an inner circle Hall of Famer in Aaron Rodgers, Lewellen is considered worthy of discussion of the greatest player in franchise history.
Yet, he’s nowhere to be found on an All-Decade Team, or an Anniversary Team, despite evidence supporting he should have.
It seems mind-blowing the best player on a dynasty would be anything but a first ballot Hall of Famer, but consider what Christl wrote in 2023 on those 1929-1931 Packers, with Lewellen being called the centerpiece of that dynasty:
“Tom Brady, perhaps the most dominant player in league history, had a .754 winning percentage in his 333 starts. But the Packers’ .730 winning percentage with Lewellen in a starring role was better than Joe Montana’s .713 and Peyton Manning’s .702 as starting quarterbacks; and better than Bart Starr’s .618 and the Packers’ .725 winning percentage during Don Hutson’s years.”
Another tidbit from a Christl piece:
“Perhaps Guy Chamberlin, Pro Football Hall of Fame end and winner of four NFL titles as a coach in the 1920s, summarized Lewellen’s career better than anyone when he said, “I don’t recall many spectacular incidents involving Lewellen – probably because he was always spectacular.” That, too, is Brady-like. Ask yourself how many of Brady’s passes do you vividly remember compared to his consistently high level of play and impact on games?”
The casual fan or a talking head like Colin Cowherd or Skip Bayless might see their head explode at someone forgotten and lost to time like Verne Lewellen being mentioned alongside Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Peyton Manning, but Cliff Christl makes a compelling argument for it to be done.
Christl wrote in 2018 that the Hall of Fame had a lot of influence from George Halas and Art Rooney, and Rooney first became an owner in 1933, the year after Lewellen retired, with no TV or team in Pittsburgh.
That didn’t help Lewellen, along with stats being unofficial.
If you won’t take my word for it, take the word of Cliff Christl and Chris Willis, who cited their articles from teammate John “Blood” McNally, from the legendary Curly Lambeau, who recognized Lewellen on his All-Time Packers Team after 1948. Take the word of the New York sportswriters who saw that 1929 NFL Championship game and that he outplayed Hall of Fame quarterback Benny Friedman at a position he wasn’t naturally at. Take the word of Hall of Famer Guy Chamberlain, who said everything about Verne Lewellen was spectacular.
In a world where people use the eyeball test as a metric for the Hall of Fame, Verne Lewellen seemed to have passed many credible eyeball tests in his day.
In a world where stats drive a person’s Hall of Fame argument, Verne Lewellen’s unofficial stats had him far and above so many of his peers, contemporaries who have a bust in Canton, but he does not.
In a world where winning and dynasties are celebrated by the Pro Football Hall of Fame, that Great Depression-Era Packers dynasty not only had Verne Lewellen, but Lewellen was their best player and a focal point in that three-peat.
I’ve often cited the likes of Arky Vaughan and George Davis as the best baseball players people have never heard of.
I’d like to bring forth Verne Lewellen as the best football player people have never heard of.
A great way to get more people to know the name Verne Lewellen is to induct him into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
And it’s an honor 60 years overdue.
Works Cited
Verne Lewellen is former Packer most deserving of Canton induction (packers.com)
10 greatest players of the Curly Lambeau era (packers.com)
Part II: Curly Lambeau’s Notre Dame Box, 1926-32 (packers.com)
State Your Case: Is Verne Lewellen “the most deserving Packer” not in the Hall? – Talk Of Fame (talkoffametwo.com)
Verne Lewellen and Red Dunn: Key Players in the Packers’ Impressive 1927-31 Run – BVM Sports
Packers Verne Lewellen | Green Bay Packers – packers.com
Who Are the Forgotten Greats in Packers History? (thepowersweep.com)
Is Micah Parsons better then Lawrence Taylor at same point in their career’s? Is their any doubt Tyreek Hill is a HOFer? Awful news with Nick Chubb getting hurt on MNF. Very sad for the 4 time PBer and potential HOFer. A great RB!!
Nick Chubb out for the year. I thought he was going to become a HOFer. Of course he still can but he’s an aging RB and will be coming off of a horrible injury next season. Derrick Henry I would put in Canton. RBs are not used like they were in the 70s-early 00s. It is of course a very very pass happy era. Frank Gore and Adrian Peterson are honestly the last RBs in at least another 20+ years to threaten Emmitt Smith’s career rushing record. I don’t see another 10,000 yard rusher for a while outside of Henry. Zeke has a shot for sure . It’s sort of like 300 game winners for MLB pitchers, but to a lesser degree.
It sucks about Chubb who is one of my favorite players. It hurts his chances at another free agent payday as well because I feel he would have left Cleveland for a better team. Maybe they get Kareem Hunt back but he might not sign after they dumped him.
Chandler Jones was also on a HOF pace, what in the world is going on with him and the Raiders?
Hopefully Nick Chubb does not become this generations Billy Sims. He was a RB destined for the HOF before a knee injury ruined his career. William Andrews was another one who I remember was great before suffering a knee injury that robbed him from a possible HOF career. The surgeries are better today, but you still get robbed of what you were originally.
Micah Parsons is great and I do believe he is on a HOF trajectory. I would say he is the closest thing I have seen to Taylor, but I feel like Taylor created slightly more Havoc in his first 3-4 seasons. There was a drop off in his last 3 or 4. Let’s hope that Parsons can take care of himself better off the field, and he will have a very good chance to be an all-time great.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame is proud to announce 173 Modern-Era Nominees for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024.
The list includes nine players in their first year of eligibility.
https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2023/09/173-modern-era-nominees-announced-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2024/
Beat me by 20 minutes Paul! https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/09/19/modern-nominees-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2024-announced/
(in coming days will work with our hosts to create a fresh topic thread for class of 2024 election–unless they beat me to it…which is fine)
173 is all time record, 40+ more than is typical… good be a result of some fans online reaching out to the Hall requesting certain players added since Hall only has a rough criteria of min 1 all pro or pro bowl selection…and anyone including fans can nominate a eligible player…social media organized effort likely was result in so many additions (none of whom will ever be elected)
Chubb already had so much done to the same knee when he injured it in college. It was remarkable that he came back from that. I fear that knee will never be good again. I agree Bill. Reminds me of William Andrews a workhorse beast. Such a good player.
Question, if you could put just one RB with a shorter career in the HOF who would it be? Billy Sims was so much fun to watch. :) Of course Larry Brown. Wilbert Montgomery and Joe Morris were inspiring. Lots of players slowed by knee injuries. I always say from 1975-1985 had the best group of RB’s IMO. Chuck Foreman, Greg Pruitt, Chuck Muncie, Lawrence McCutcheon, Gerald Riggs and Ottis Anderson too. Plus the Hofers.
Curious how y’all feel about 1/4 Arian Foster? So many RB’s drop off after being 28.
Are we going to have Watt brothers in the HOF?
Chubb to me is still young and can recover. We will see how determined he is to get back on the field but its about how his knee responds. When Gayle Sayers and Terrell Davis retired, it had to have upset a lot of people … I know Denver fans were deflated.
Robert Smith and Tiki Barber retired before they could be hurt seriously. Fans don’t agree but maybe it makes sense for some players. They know there bodies and law of averages. It’s all on Chubb if can come back but it’s hard to see why with what he’s gone through.
If i had to pick 1 RB with a short career that i would put in the hall of fame i would put in Larry Brown (Washington) 100% its Really close between him and billy sims
we have a new topic..
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2023/09/19/modern-nominees-for-pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2024-announced/
I would go with either Chuck Foreman or William Andrews, though Sims was so exciting. Andrews was the total back and Foreman helped his team go to three SBs in four years. Its tough to choose a player hurt by injuries because OJ Anderson and Priest Holmes were rolling before bad injuries.