As the excitement of the announcement of the Class of 2012 has subsided, and we’re getting ready to welcome potential members of the Hall of Fame Class of 2030 (give or take) into the league, it’s time to once again start to lay out our projections for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2013.
First, a real quick recap of the non-senior committee 2012 finalists:
Inducted Into the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2012:
Dermontti Dawson
Chris Doleman
Cortez Kennedy
Curtis Martin
Willie Roaf
Final five candidates not inducted:
Bill Parcells
Cris Carter
Charles Haley
Andre Reed
Aeneas Williams
Rest of the Final 15 not included:
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Edward DeBartolo Jr.
Kevin Greene
Will Shields
In your average year, we make the assumption that any of the finalists that are eligible to return will make the finalists list again the following year. However, there are a few candidates in 2013 that may not, for various reasons:
Bill Parcells – Normally there is no way one of the top 10 guys fall off the list, unless they reach the senior candidate stage. But normally these guys aren’t flirting with resuming their careers either. Parcells is reportedly the top choice of Sean Payton to replace him during his one year suspension, which would kick Parcells back off the list. Just the rumors that Parcells might take the job alone might force him down, even if he doesn’t end up taking the job.
Edward DeBartolo Jr. – Depending on who you ask, DeBartolo is a fringe candidate for the Hall at best, especially given the circumstances around his departure from the league. With a strong class coming in, he might struggle to make the top 15 again.
Kevin Greene – Greene is a player that a lot of people have mentioned in the years we’ve been doing Hall of Fame predictions, but strictly from the eye-test, he’s always felt like a fringe player to us. Then again, frankly Richard Dent, John Randle, Cortez Kennedy and Chris Doleman would have been in that same category, and all four of them have been chosen. But if the class is strong enough, Greene might face some difficulties.
As mentioned above, the list of players eligible for the first time in 2013 is relatively strong—although that might end up working against some of them, as they possibly could split votes since many played similar positions.
The list is headed by:
Guard/Tackle Larry Allen – 11 Pro Bowls, six first-team All-Pro selections, All-Decade 90’s & 00’s
Tackle Jonathan Ogden – 11 Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pro selections, All-Decade 00’s
Defensive Tackle Warren Sapp – seven Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pro selections, All-Decade 90’s & 00’s
Defensive End Michael Strahan – seven Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pro selections, All-Decade 00’s
Also on the list:
Defensive Lineman Bryant Young
Safety John Lynch
Running Back Priest Holmes
Quarterback Steve McNair
Kicker Morten Andersen
Any of the first list could arguably be first year inductions, and almost assuredly will be finalists. The second set will have a more difficult time, but still could easily make the final 25. A couple might sneak into the final 15.
Finally, we’ve got to look at the list of 11 (due to a tie) semifinalists that didn’t make it last year:
Steve Atwater
Don Coryell
Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Clay Matthews
Karl Mecklenburg
Donnie Shell
Paul Tagliabue
Steve Tasker
Ron Wolf
George Young
Not a terribly strong list of semifinalists, with a special teamer, a couple of good but not great linebackers that were in the running for the first time last year and a few contributors that don’t strike us as likely inductees in the near term. So, our list of predicted 2013 Pro Football Hall of Fame Finalists:
Larry Allen
Morten Andersen
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Cris Carter
Kevin Greene
Charles Haley
John Lynch
Jonathan Ogden
Andre Reed
Warren Sapp
Will Shields
Michael Strahan
Aeneas Williams
Ron Wolf
That gives us five first time finalists and only one contributor on the list. And plenty of questions:
- Will the voters finally start to clear up the waiting list at WR with Brown, Carter and Reed, and Marvin Harrison coming into the picture next year?
- With three strong offensive linemen on the list, and Walter Jones breathing down their neck in 2014 (not to mention Kevin Mawae, Chris Samuels and Orlando Pace joining the list the couple years after), do one or two make it, or do their votes cancel each other out and create another log jam?
- Similar scenario with defensive linemen, where Haley, Sapp and Strahan could be competing for votes?
This year, we’ve decided to make separate picks here at Zoneblitz, and will finally officially make a contest where readers can submit their picks.
Our 2013 Pro Football Hall of Fame Inductees:
Andy | Tony |
Larry Allen | Cris Carter |
Jonathan Ogden | Andre Reed |
Charles Haley | Larry Allen |
Cris Carter | Aeneas Williams |
John Lynch | Charles Haley |
Andy: It’d be unusual for multiple offensive linemen to get elected. But it happened in 2011 with two great candidates and I think in 2012 the nominees are too good to ignore. Will Shields deserves to get in but he will have to wait one more season, as the profiles of Allen and Ogden are both slightly more impressive, especially if using Super Bowl rings as a tiebreaker (I’m also hoping to see former Packers guard Jerry Kramer get another shot at the Hall as a senior candidate, which might make it that much more difficult for Shields to get in this year).
Charles Haley was a weird and possibly troubled dude while playing in the NFL, if you believe what you read. And his profile, at five Pro Bowls and two first place All Pro lists, is less than I would have expected. But you can’t argue with results. He helped San Francisco get to Super Bowls. And then when he went to Dallas, the Cowboys went to Super Bowls. Haley is a hall of famer.
I do believe the Hall of Fame voters will feel the pressure of rising criticism toward their inability to get at least one of the wide receivers into the Hall. Reed seems to have the lead in terms of support. It’s my belief that Brown has a slight edge in deserving to be enshrined first, though I think he probably ultimately will be the last of the three. I’m guessing voters ultimately move toward Carter with the other two following in the next few years. If the voters fail at this again, then I think a spot opens for Jerome Bettis to join the class of 2013. As it is, I see him waiting one more year.
The fifth spot was tough. I think Shields is the most deserving, but that would buck two trends: Too much of a slant toward offensive players and too many offensive linemen. So unfortunately he waits one more year. I’ll go with John Lynch being the surprise enshrinee. He went to nine Pro Bowls. He only has two All Pro selections. But he helped a once-embarrassing Tampa Bay franchise make the Super Bowl. And he’s part of an era where safeties gained tremendously in prominence. I think we’ll see this position honored more and more as guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu hang ’em up.
Tony: I was all over the board this year with my choices. At one point or another I’ve had Bettis, Brown, Ogden, and Shields all making it—and I think all are going to get there. In fact, Shields probably deserved it last year, although I think if Randall McDaniel had to wait until year three, all guards should have to wait. Ogden could also easily claim a first year entry, but in the end I don’t see the non-glamor positions getting more than one guy in two years in a row. I was tempted to go really crazy and put all three wide receivers in one class—I do think that the criticism over not putting in any last year reached a new level, and at least some voters will feel obligated to “correct” this.
In the end, I left Bettis and Brown off because they didn’t make the final 10 this past year. In fact, this may be overall one of the safest sets of picks out there, with four of the five picks being from the final 10 in the 2012 class (with Parcells being the odd one out. We left him off our finalist list, assuming he will not be eligible).
So who are your picks? Let us know in the comments below.
Since making my guess at next year’s inductee list on this site soon after the Super Bowl, I have changed my mind about whom the voters will select. I thought my idea was a bit crazy until I read Tony’s list and saw that it was the same as mine. My list is Larry Allen, Andre Reed, Cris Carter, Charles Haley and Aeneas Williams.
Reasoning: To be honest, the reasoning is a bit thin. There has been a trend to even out the offensive and defensive selections, with a slight bias towards the offence (see this year’s 3-2 split). I’m going with the 3-2 split again. I see the voters over-reacting to the criticism about the WR situation and voting in both Reed and Carter. Not because they mean too, but a desire to make sure that at least one WR is in the final five pushes both of Reed and Carter there. The final offensive slot will go to an OL. The voters seem not to have any trouble electing from this category. I go with Allen over Ogden and Shields.
On the defensive side, I see Strahan and Sapp not being elected in their first year. This opens the door for Charles Haley. The final defensive slot will go to Williams who made the final 10 this year.
Sorry Andy but I’d be stunned if John Lynch was elected 1st ballot. I think he’s a borderline case anyway, especially when you consider how difficult its has been historically for a safety to be elected to Canton. IMO Ed Reed is the only potential future 1st ballot HOFer at the position. I’d rank Lynch at least 4th behind Reed, Polamalu and Dawkins from the past decade and Darren Sharper, who again is very much a borderline candidate, beat him to the last spot on the 2000s All Decade team.
I do agree though with Ogden and Allen ahead of Shields. A wide receiver (Carter) and a pass rusher (Strahan or Haley) will probably get elected as well. The last spot I’m not sure about. I’d like to see a 2nd WR get elected to ease the backlog but I do think looking at the last few balanced classes they are more likley to go with a 3-2 split between offense and defense. Aeneas Williams must have a great shot having made the final 10 last year and being the clear-cut best CB on the candidate list.
The best bet for any of the WRs to get elected is for only 1 of them to reach the Last 10. That way the voters choice is made for them when they cast their vote for the 5 finalists. I fear there might be another split vote with 2 WRs in the last 10 with neither getting in. As the voting totals are never released we’ll never know who exactly are the 6th and 7th names to just miss out on the final cut.
PS Jones, Pace and Mawae are all eligible from 2015 so there is still a bit of breathing room to get at least 2 out of 3 from Ogden, Allen and Shields inducted by then, which I’m almost certain will happen in the next two classes. Out of those 6 OL names Pace and Mawae will be the last ones to get enshrined.
Here’s my prediction for 2013:
Semifinalists:
Aeneas Williams
Andre Reed
Art Modell
Cris Carter
Charles Haley
Don Coryell
Edward DeBartolo Jr.
George Young
Jerome Bettis
Jonathan Ogden
Karl Mecklenburg
Kevin Greene
Larry Allen
Michael Strahan
Morten Andersen
Paul Tagliabue
Roger Craig
Ron Wolf
Steve Atwater
Steve Tasker
Terrell Davis
Tim Brown
Todd Christensen
Warren Sapp
Will Shields
Finalists:
Aeneas Williams
Andre Reed
Cris Carter
Charles Haley
Don Coryell
Jerome Bettis
Jonathan Ogden
Kevin Greene
Larry Allen
Michael Strahan
Roger Craig
Ron Wolf
Tim Brown
Warren Sapp
Will Shields
Final 10:
Aeneas Williams
Andre Reed
Cris Carter
Charles Haley
Jerome Bettis
Jonathan Ogden
Kevin Greene
Larry Allen
Michael Strahan
Will Shields
Inductees:
Andre Reed
Cris Carter
Kevin Greene
Larry Allen
Michael Strahan
I recognize I’m going out on a limb with a couple of things. I’m assuming that Parcells is coming back, so he won’t be in the picture. I’m also assuming that similar to Rickey Jackson and Chris Doleman, I think that Kevin Greene is going to leapfrog Charles Haley and be the year’s “surprise” inductee. I believe Haley is a shoe-in to be inducted by 2014.
I think that with Parcells presumably out of the picture, there will absolutely be at least one receiver inducted. I think the pressure of this past class will lead them to induct Reed and Carter together, over inducting either Bettis or Ogden.
Larry Allen to me is the best offensive lineman the league has seen since Anthony Munoz. I feel like he has to get in first ballot, and I wouldn’t be surprised a bit if Ogden made it as well in over one of the receivers.
I’m floored at the lack of support for Strahan. He’s been the best pass rusher of the past several years, and doesn’t have a single weak link in his resume. He’s got a long, consistently productive career that included a championship ring, a defensive player of the year award, the sack* record and more than enough post-season honours (7/4/00’s). Plus he’s had a media career that has kept him in the spotlight and hasn’t negatively affected his image (see Carter and Sapp). It reminds me of when Rod Woodson was first eligible and no one thought he had a chance despite an obviously worthy and foolproof resume. Even if Haley is overdue, I don’t see the need or the possibility of rushing him in over Strahan. There’s no new competition for Haley until Jason Taylor becomes eligible, so there’s no reason to think he won’t get in within a couple of classes.
Rod Woodson was named to the 75th anniversary All NFL team in 1994, with his resume at 5/6. I was very young than, but I am sure the majority of NFL fans knew Rod was a first Ballot Hall of Famer or had a realistic chance; especially after he got hurt in 1995 and his career could have gone a completely different way, but it didn’t. 1/5 from than on. 1999, he led the NFL in interceptions; he helped the Ravens in 2000 win the Super Bowl at 35 years old, making the Pro Bowl and being named 2nd team All Pro; In 2002, with the Raiders, he was named first team All Pro/Pro Bowler and led the NFL in interceptions at 37 years old and helped them get to the Super Bowl.
Thanks Brad, it wasn’t so much the media or voters, but rather the message boards at sites like this. I remember many posters trumpeting Bruce Smith as a guarantee, but for whatever reason Rod Woodson wasn’t treated as having the same chance despite very similar credentials.
With Strahan, he’s not in the Reggie White/Bruce Smith/Lawrence Taylor class, but I think he’s the next best pass rusher I’ve seen in my lifetime, and he’s one of the few defensive players I’ve seen that seems like a worthy first-balloter.
BSLO-I wasn’t trying to be critical. I am sorry if I offended you. That wasn’t my attentions and never is or will be. I agree with you; Michael is certainly one of the best pass rushers of our time. 4/7/00s is a solid resume. First ballot is in the cards for Strahan, as is for any first time eligible players , but I just don’t see it. First ballot is a tough accomplishment. Defensive End’s like Gino Marchetti 7/11, Reggie White 8/13, etc. are first ballot Hall of Famers. I don’t see Michael at that level. Time will tell.
boknows, I don’t necessarily disagree on Lynch. I was a bit stuck on a fifth enshrinee so I threw him out there as a long-shot. I’m not sold on Williams getting in yet. I don’t think Sapp or Strahan get in first ballot. It’d be great to see two of the wide receivers get in this year, but I’m not convinced the voters are capable of functioning that way. I agree on the other three safeties you mentioned being better candidates than Lynch, but I do think Lynch has a shot if he can get in before those three hang it up, even if it isn’t this year.
I would not complain at all if Strahan made it 1st ballot. He made the Top 100 Greatest Players Ever in last year’s NFL Network series. Allen and Strahan were ranked in the #90s. I’d certainly rank him over Haley as a player but we all know that the voters appear to sometimes elect a name which is ‘next on the list’ when there is no slam dunk choice.
Regards Don Coryell, what exactly is the current criteria for coaching candidates regards the modern era/seniors route? John Madden was a Seniors nominee and elected as such in 2006, yet the 2012 prelim modern era list had Clark Shaughnessy who last coached in the NFL in 1962. The HOF badly needs a separate route for coaches and contributors.
No worries Brad I wasn’t offended, I realized after I posted that my reply probably came off as a bit negative, but that wasn’t my intention either so I apologize.
I guess that when you look at it, there is very little separating Strahan’s credentials from Warren Sapp’s. But for whatever reason, I always felt that Strahan was a better player than him, and personally I don’t think Sapp has a shot at going in right away. I guess that from my point of view, I think that Strahan is the best defensive player in this class by a decent margin, so I don’t see why he’d get passed up.
I realize that a lot of great players have been passed up in recent years on the first ballot, but I feel like Strahan is closer to White, Smith, Woodson, Matthews, Faulk, Sanders, etc. than guys like McDaniel, Roaf, Shields, Carter, Martin and others who have had to wait.
As much as I think that guys like Haley, Williams, Sapp and Greene are worthy. I wouldn’t put any of them in over Strahan.
I should clarify that I would not complain if Strahan got elected provided at least one of the WRs gets elected with him. Ultimately I think he’ll wait 2-4 years before getting in.
boknows34 – With regards to coaches, and all other contributors, they are all now voted on with the modern-era players. I think that this rule came into effect shortly after Madden’s induction, and might have been a response to criticism of coaches taking up senior spots from players.
I am usually willing to cut the Hall some slack, but that rule change was incredibly dumb. A worthy coach like Buddy Parker has no chance at being inducted over a modern era player. I agree that the coaches and contributors should have their own ballot. There’s no good way to compare a coach or owner to a player, and it gets even more ridiculous when you try to make that comparison with equipment managers, scouts and referees, all of whom have made the preliminary list over the past few years.
I agree with boknows34. I am not opposing the idea of Michael going first ballot.
Torry Holt holds noteworthy records and accomplishments: He reached 10,000 (116 games) and 11,000 (130 games) career receiving yards faster than any other player. NFL record: consecutive seasons with at least 1,300 yards receiving with six. NFL record: six consecutive seasons with 90+ receptions . One of two players(Marvin Harrison) to record two 1,600 receiving yard seasons. Most receptions(868) and receiving yards(12,594) in a single decade. Torry had a great career. He deserves consideration for Canton.
@Brad – Holt is a good point, I knew I was neglecting a couple of additional WR that were coming down the pike with Harrison. Isaac Bruce too–I consider him a notch below, but he had a solid career.
@BoKnows34 – Walter Jones last played in 2008, so he will be up next year, making the OL situation even more jumbled if they don’t put 1-2 in this year.
I actually almost went with 4 inductees this year rather than 5–at the end of the day, I can’t see the voters doing that, but overall based on track record the last few years, this is one of the harder classes to predict in my eyes. I could see Strahan making it, but personally I wouldn’t vote him in this year–the extended holdout and (oddly enough) sack record tarnish him in my eyes. Worthy of the Hall, not worthy of being elite in the Hall, especially compared to those that have had to wait before him.
I’m interested to see how the Hall treats Walter Jones’ candidacy, because while he last played in 2008, he spent all of 2009 on the Seahawks roster on the IR.
If you’re looking for comparables, Mike Alstott also last played in 2006, but spent all of 2007 on Tampa’s roster on the IR. He did not get a preliminary nomination this year, although I have no idea if this was because he wasn’t eligible or if he simply didn’t get picked.
Darren Woodson spent all of 2004 on the Cowboys’ roster on the IR, yet for some reason he became eligible with the players who retired in 2003.
Finally, going back a bit further, Bob Kuechenburg last played in 1983, and spent 1984 on the Dolphins roster injured. He ended up being eligible as a modern-era candidate until 2009, same as Ken Stabler who played until 1984.
I guess what I’m saying is that the Hall has been a bit inconsistent when it comes to eligibility if a player spends their final season injured. When looking at other sites that have previewed upcoming classes, they consistently refer to Jones being eligible in 2015. Not really sure what will happen.
impressive predictions so far for the 2013 hall of fame class
Tony P – I agree that this is one of the tougher years to pick, especially if Parcells will indeed be ineligible for another 5 years because I thought he had a great chance this year. I think there’s a great chance of 2 guys going from one position this year, likely receivers or offensive linemen. I’d also say defensive end, but Haley and Greene are really hybrid DE/LB’s, so not sure if that would count.
I don’t think less than 5 candidates get in though. There are 10-15 candidates with a legitimate shot at induction in my opinion who very much deserve it. Strahan wouldn’t be the best first-ballot HOFer, but he would in no way be the worst (he’d at least be a better choice than Jackie Slater or Warren Moon). I personally can’t name a better defensive end from the past 15 years.
I certainly wouldn’t be surprised or disappointed if Strahan were to be elected as a first-balloter. This year, in my opinion, trying to predict what the voters will do is harder than at any other time during the last 5 years.
As far as the OL go, I’d say the order would be Allen, Ogden, Jones and then Shields, depending on when Jones becomes eligible.
The Hall of Fame is hard to predict in general. When you think they’re voting one way, they vote another. GO KEVIN MAWAE!
i wouldn’t be suprised if both strahan and sapp get in first ballot just because they are trying to include more defensive players like they did with kennedy and doleman for 2012 so don’t be shocked if strahan and sapp both get in
i would have to think that jerome bettis will go in the hall of fame in 2013 just because of the lack of running back canidates that are up next year, i would be shocked if he was not the last one to go in until tomlinson and edgerrin james comes up soon, hopefully roger craig gets some votes and get to the finalist list also
I can imagine Bettis goes in.
Any first timers next year?
probably sapp or strahan or both if they wanted to put both in first–time both were great players in their own right
Ogden was on the NFL’s top 100 list. I believe he placed 72. That is above Strahan, who was ranked #99. Thoughts?
Allen, Carter, Haley, Strahan, Williams
Personally I think that Larry Allen and Michael Strahan will be going in as first-ballot inductees. I think Jonathan Ogden is worthy of first ballot induction, but I think he’ll get stuck in a numbers game, coming in the same year as Allen.
@Corey – I’m not sure I think the NFL Top 100 list will carry too much weight, at least compared to the more “traditional” list factors (All-Pro, Pro Bowl, All-Decade), in part because that list is so broad and tries to compare players from the early days of the NFL to the more recent, which is a difficult comparison.
I’m shocked Strahan made the Top 100 list, actually–a little surprised Ogden did as well, actually, but mainly because I would have assumed that the list left off a lot of the trench players in favor of glamour positions.
now that sapp has his money problems, do you think that his troubles will have an effect if he gets into the hall of fame or not?
@chris – I really don’t see money problems impacting whether or not Sapp gets in (he will)–nor even his first year chances (which obviously I don’t think are great anyways). Unless he starts committing robbery (outside the robbery some might consider him to be committing by taking paychecks for the work he provides NFL Network) or murder, I still see him getting in.
Dermontti Dawson went bankrupt in 2010. Money problems won’t hold Sapp back at all.
larry allen has a good chance in making it into the hall of fame in 2013
As I mentioned earlier on the 2012 HOF selection discussion, selections in 2013 are going to be very hard to forecast, you could look at 10-12 candidates as all very good possibilities with the mix of 2012 finalists, 1st time candidates in 2013 (Allen, Ogden, Strahan, Sapp) and logjams at WR, OL, and DL (plus the whole Bill P question: is he in or out?) leaving great potential for tight decisions and split voting. With all those factors, plus the dynamics and history of recent voting, hard to say if anyone is a “lock” although I would agree Allen has perhaps the best case but the recent OL voting and current OL logjam could result in a surprise non-election there, given recent elections nothing (those in, those out) would surprise me any more.
Bill is officially out. He hasn’t said it publicly , but it seems as though he wants to get inducted soon, which he should. Larry Allen has a chance of being a first ballot Hall of Famer and it wouldn’t startle me at all. He is one of the best offensive lineman of all time.
Well until he makes a clear statement (and the Saints select a 2012 coach and other teams stop suggesting his name as a candidate) HOF voters may not be so willing to elect him yet, having his name even raised with the Saints may result in some voters taking a waiting game on his election in 2013, fair or not fair it could impact their voting.
I agree with Paul–in fact, I just put up a poll (in the left hand column) asking exactly what people think will happen now that he is (apparently) out of the running.
@Corey – Agree 100% on money problems not hurting Sapp’s chances, although his bankruptcy garnered a lot more attention than Dawson’s. And some might try to argue (falsely) that Dawson’s trouble delayed his entry?
I do have to wonder, though, how Sapp reportedly not having his contract renewed at NFL Network due (in part) to his (apparently falsely) naming of Jeremy Shockey as the snitch might impact him? Along with him appearing to have a bigger problem with someone snitching than with the fact that bounties were being placed in the first place. That might sit wrong with some voters?
I doubt Sapp’s financial or job situation will have any impact on his election as I always viewed him a very marginal 1st time selection as I suspect many other voters would agree. No doubt given the depth of the current and future pool of candidates it will still take Sapp 3-5 elections to get selected.
As to Parcells, I now have no idea how voters will view or treat his candiancy, if I had to guess there will be enough uncertainty in the minds of some voters to result in a delay of his election at least one more year. But it truly would not surprise we one bit to see him elected in 2013. I suppose it comes down to others in the final ten and whether there is a greater push to get another player elected rather then Parcells.
i do think that one of the recievers needs to get in next year so that logjam gets taken down and the writers don’t need to hear any more complaints getting that position into the hall of fame most notably andre reed and cris carter
I didn’t even catch it when he originally posted, but Mike Florio at ProFootballTalk addressed Sapp’s off field troubles and their role in his HOF candidacy:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/12/hall-of-fame-presenter-laments-sapps-recent-off-field-issues/
“Reinforcing our theory is Ira Kaufman of the Tampa Tribune, a Hall of Fame voter who’ll be charged with the task of convincing enough of his colleagues to give a thumb’s up to former Buccaneers and Raiders defensive tackle Warren Sapp in February 2013. As Kaufman recently explained on WHBO-AM radio (via JoeBucsFan.com), he’s concerned that recent controversies regarding Sapp will make it harder to make the case for induction.
“He’s killin’ me. He’s killin’ me,” Kaufman said of Sapp. “And by that I mean that in nine months it’s going my pleasure, my privilege to present the case for No. 99 in front of the Hall of Fame panel. Forty-four people are going to be looking at him. I have very powerful ammo to get this man in, I believe, based on the merits of what he did on the football field.”
Revealing in that Kaufman actually believes that Sapp has a strong case for election into the HOF???? If he makes the 15 finalist list there are still at least 10 more deserving players for election in 2013. Sapp will eventually make the HOF but based on his career and not personal life, he is not a top candidate in 2013 as there simply will be at least 5 more deserving players. Although I suspect when he is not elected some bloggers and posters will claim the voters kept him out due solely to his personal life.
Also though one comment posted on that article referred to taking the HOF vote from the writers as it has become a popularity contest. But that is exactly what would happen, and even worse, if the voting was controlled by a smaller group or by the public.
Warren Sapp is going to Canton. Warren is top ten defensive tackles of all time. Probably top five. Hard to name 6 better than him in NFL history; according to Sports Illustrated, seventy-eight percent of retired NFL players are bankrupt or near bankruptcy within two years after retirement. That tells you they do not invest well and/or get divorced. For several of them, think they can live the lifestyle that they are accustomed to for the rest of there lives; but they can’t.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364
Sorry, I missed spelled my name.
The “5” going in next are : Cris Carter, Will Shields, Charles Haley, Aeneas Williams and HC Bill Parcells.
I don’t think they will make Carter wait anymore. I think they made their point. LOL
Shields has to go in to make room for Larry Allen who should be a 1st time guy but they made Randall McDaniel wait it’s only fair.
It’s time for Haley although many would like Greene but he wasn’t as good. Can’t put him in first.
Williams is good for the Cardinals. He’s lucky to be at the head of the line because Steve Atwater was every bit as good although in a different way. IMO Atwater definetly should go in ahead of Lynch.
Parcells is 71 and will be rewarded for staying retired.
Now for Tony’s next “5” Wish List :) :
1. Corey Dillon RB a bruising runner that was every bit as good as the bus. Just imagine if he wasn’t stuck in Cinncy for all those years with no one at QB. He finished up in style with New England.
2. Mark “Super” Duper WR, 5’9″ and tough as nails. Miami’s all-time leading WR and part of one of the best known one-two tandems (opposite 5’9″ Mark Clayton) were the “Mark Bros”) in football history. If Bradshaw has Swann than give Dan Marino someone. LOL!
3. Lester “the Molester” Hayes CB. Great Player!. Outlawed stickem because he had one of the best season EVER at CB. Much acclaim was taken away when HOFer Mark Haynes joined the Raiders.
4. Jake Scott SS one of the best at his position in the 1970’s. SB MVP. A knack for interceptions and a mean SOB who was the glue to Miami’s bend but don’t break “No-Name” Defense.
5. Drew Pearson WR, I hated the Cowboys but I know this man had a HOF career. He made all the catches and was clutch as the come. I’ve never seen anyone better cating the ball along the sidelines. Amazing!! He is the strongest pick on this list. Two of the best QB’s in history can’t get a WR in the HOF. I don’t count Jackie Smith. :)
Senior Picks!
1. Curley Culp NG, 6 times PB and a great player in a postion that does not have one HOFer. He was the first player to play under Hank Stram in the newly invented 3-4 scheme. Later he starred for the Oilers defense besides HOFer Elvin Bethea. Great player!
2. Johnny Robinson S, his numbers speak for themselves. :)
Tony P., aside from anything else you posted above, note well that Hayes, Scott, and Pearson are now Senior-eligible only.
Dillon and Duper are no where near close to getting into the HOF anytime soon as there are numerous better RBs and WRs (and other positions) from their respective eras with better numbers and qualifications, in fact I doubt either will ever get elected.
Your 2013 selections are reasonable, but it will be a very interesting debate among the HOF voters over OL, especially between Shields and Allen. Although I understand your logic in selecting Shields as it does reflect recent HOF voting trends for OL, Allen is a pretty special case with qualifications that exceed Shield and may result in his election as a first time player – also given that there could be interest in selecting one 1st time player in 2013 and Allen would be the best and safest such selection.
yeah jake scott was a hell of a player for those dolphin teams of the 70s
Ok I’ll try to get in the modern world. How about adding: Darren Woodson, Tim Brown and Richmond Webb.
@Tony P. – From your wish list, I suspect Tim Brown is the only one you’ll ever see make it. Maybe Woodson, but i have a feeling he may be overshadowed by the safeties of today’s game.
Duper may have the stats to compare to (or surpass) Swann (who probably doesn’t deserve to be in), he doesn’t have those rings. Or any All-Pro awards. And he played in the 80’s, when the transition to pass first really started happening.
Webb was a pass blocking fiend who never seemed to figure out run blocking. He had a 7/2 profile, but again, lack of post season success and lack of blocking for a great runner would have to hurt him. The fact that he’s not even making the final 25 (that I know of) shows that.
Dillon might be at or above Woodson from a career standpoint, but again probably fails to stack up to other RB in his era.
Richmond Webb wasn’t even on the prelim list last year and I have no idea as to why.
rod woodson will never get into the hall of fame
@Chris – I assume you mean Darren? Because I saw Rod Woodson at the HOF in 2009 when he was being inducted.
oh, im sorry. i meant darren woodson, my mistake there.
Now McNabb thinks he deserves to be in the HOF, I would say no, never going to happen…too many better qualified QBs from his era, and he lacks the SBs, all pro, pro bowl and career numbers.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8286a1a0/article/donovan-mcnabb-believes-hes-a-hall-of-famer?module=HP11_headline_stack
There are already five better QBs from the 2000s decade going into the HOF (Brady, P Manning, E Manning, Roethlisberger, and Brees) before McNabb is even considered. I doubt even with a few years head start as an eligible player that McNabb will get to the final 15 list before these players start appearing on the ballot and pushing him right off. He had 4-5 good years but the lack of big numbers, no SB wins, and no all pro selections drops him way down on the 2000s decade QB list. The decade of the 70s has 5 QBs, the 80s has 3 , and the 90s has 5 (wih Farve), but regardless how you allocate the split decade players it seems like 5 is an accepted number for HOF QBs in a decade. So it would seem reasonable to expect 5 from the 2000s with my five having the career numbers, awards and SBs more so then McNabb.
You forgot a QB who won the Super Bowl before Brady, both Mannings, Drew Brees, and Ben Roethlisberger did: Kurt Warner. He will be a Hall of Famer. Super Bowl MVP, two league MVPs, the 3 highest passing yard games in Super Bowl history, most TD passes and most passing yards in a single postseason, fastest player to reach 10,000 passing yards and fastest to reach 30,000 passing yards, 2nd best completion % in NFL history, and many more records. Not to mention, he was undrafted.
You are right I did forget about Warner and he will appear on the ballot first of the 2000s decade QB. He had an interesting career which will result in several years of discussions among the voters.
Agreed. Kurt will have to wait a few years, but should get in.
at least a couple of years for kurt warner
Plus the quality of the next few classes (including 1st timers) is going to be pretty good which will make the competition harder (plus with the solid 10 finalists remaining from 2012) meaning his chances will be difficult for several elections.
I can’t imagine Warner taking too long. Most quarterbacks in recent memory seemed to have been first ballot: Kelly, Elway, Marino, Young, Aikman and Moon all were first ballot.
I’m agreeing with those who think Kurt Warner gets in but not right away. His career trajectory is not like any HoF QB, or in fact as far as I can see like any QB I know of — the closest approximation, given his short and uneven career (huge highs and some very weak seasons) with one Super Bowl win, is probably Joe Namath. And Namath is considered by many as the weakest QB in the HoF, if not a mistake. Warner’s best seasons are top-drawer, though (Rasaretnam for one ranks him high on Best 4 and Best 7), and he has a sufficient amount of “narrative” to get him over the hump.
Re Donovan McNabb: a few years ago, his HoF case at least looked marginal (maybe a little better) and there was the possibility he might continue to put together some more decent years in future. But given that Drew Brees has been able to maintain a high-quality career for a number of seasons now and has a Super Bowl win, Ben Roethlisberger has put up a sufficient number of very good seasons and has two SB wins under his belt, and McNabb has tanked spectacularly over the last few seasons, that should pretty much be the end for McNabb’s HoF case.
I can see all of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Brett Favre (remember him? he played a ton in the 00s as well), Brees, Roethlisberger, and Warner getting elected among the QBs who played a lot during the 00s, which is about the upper limit historically at this position for the HoF.
how about philip rivers from the chargers? what is his hall of fame status look like in the near future?
Like Tony Romo, Rivers needs more post season wins (especially at least one SB win) and awards (all pro teams) to ever receive serious consideration for the HOF. Unfortunately it may be that both players have passed their prime (as have their teams) and are quickly running out of time for such successes, especially given the rise in the quality and number of younger QBs now in the league who are also fighting for those same numbers, wins, and awards. But the change remains no matter how unlikely for a late career surge by either of them. But as it stands now and on the career path to date, neither is getting close to the HOF regardless of pro bowls, season and career numbers, interesting they both could end up with career numbers very similar to McNabb depending on future playoff successes.
Geez, I forgot about Warner and Romo in this article I just posted RE: McNabb:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2012/04/20/donovan-mcnabb-hall-famer/
I agree that Warner will make it in after a short wait. He’ll be one of the most popular selections ever.
McNabb will be one of the most contentious selections in HOF history. People seemed to love or hate him when he played. And that was in his own city. I personally think he did enough. He reminds me a lot of Jim Kelly. Kind of ugly!
IMO Romo will probably need to do more than just win a Super Bowl although that will get him into the conversation. I’d like to see 3 or 4 (healthy) years playing at his 2007 level. Something like Brees has been doing. A team in the Playoffs once in a while would be nice.
I think Rivers is ahead of Romo. All he needs for me is a Super Bowl appearance and to finish his career in a nice way.
Eli Manning has two Super Bowl wins and in my mind he done enough in those wins and overall for his team in his career to be a HOFer. Thus far I’d put him on par with Jim Plunkett and his two SB’s wins and what he did. I guess how most feel about Plunkett, I just put a nail in Manning’s chance, at least currently.
Richmond Webb was a 6’6″ 325 lb runaway road grader!! HOFer Bruce Smith said he was the best he faced. He set the Miami record of 118 consecutive starts. Webb was selected #9 in the first round of the 1990 draft behind Cortez Kennedy and Junior Seau. He was the ONLY offensive lineman selected in the first 75 picks.
Tony, with all do respect, to say that he “just couldn’t figure out run blocking” is just plain wrong IMO. It’s a fallacy!!
I’ll give you that those teams couldn’t get two yards up the middle if their life depended on it. And except for Kareem -Abdul-Jabbar, I can’t even remember a decent RB on the the team in all of the 1990’s. They tried. LOL!! Remember the great Sammie Smith? Shula never had a great RB in the 1980’s either. Although I’ll take the all-around play of Tony Nathan any day. Even the great Jimmy Johnson couldn’t turn out a decent running game for Marino. For many years it flat out seemed as if the Dolphins abandoned the running game.
I’d like to know if you heard that a Webb himself couldn’t run block well? I never heard that. I’ll give you that Miami’s lack of a great runner would hurt any o-lineman trying to make the HOF.
But when you really think about it, why? How many times do you hear, I sure hope my left tackle can run block? No, most of the time it’s about protecting the QBs backside. And with the speed of the game, how often are runs designed to go outside anyway? The last RB and O-line I remember that was great at going outside was the Denver Broncos with Terrel Davis. He was a load running downhill on those sweeps.
It’s so funny because now the trend is to not draft RB’s early because there are so many good ones or should I say serviceable for the offenses they play for.
Kelly had more playoff wins (including the four AFC championship wins) and better playoff stats, it is not a fair comparison to make to McNabb
I agree with Paul about Jim Kelly-Donovan McNabb comparison. Both never won a Super Bowl. Making one Super Bowl is not a fluke at all, but doesn’t make you that much more superior; winning it does. Making four straight is unprecedented. Jim Kelly was named first team All Pro in 1991 and 2nd team All Pro in 1990 and 1992 to two QBs named Joe Montana and Steve Young. McNabb was never named to an All Pro team. I am in support of Donovan for the Hall, because I too think he did “enough”, but with Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, and Ben Roethlisberger in his era, it will be tough,very tough. What I liked about McNabb’s career was that he was a good runner as well as a good passer. When I say good passer, I mean he didn’t turn the ball over and put up TD’s. Between 2000-2009, he had 208 passsing TD’s and only 93 Ints; as well as 28 rushing TD’s. After the QBs I mentioned before get inducted, McNabb should be the next QB in from this era. Time will tell.
The only way McNabb ever gets in the HOF is by buying a ticket! As you point out there are already seven more qualified QBs from the 2000s decade going into HOF and no previous decade has that many nor should any future decade.
No love for McNabb which is surprising to me considering opinions a couple years ago. I know his career ended with a gigantic thud but is it that different McNabb going to 4 NFC Title games and 1 lost SB versus Kelly’s 4 consecutive lost SB’s? Most years the Eagles felt like they were overachieving and succeeding largely due to McNabb and Westbrook and this crazy blitzing Defense. IMO the Bills made it further because of their Defense. Kelly was only rated as the top player on his own team once. He had 2 HOF WRs and 1 RB while the only time McNabb had a top caliber WR (Owens) he led his team to the SB. The Bills clearly had a better support cast for Kelly than McNabb.
I got caught not looking up the stats again so my bad. Should of done my homework. And when I said “ugly”, I should of said both were gutty players. I still don’t believe there’s a huge difference between players and would select McNabb for the HOF. Just because there are several QB’s deserving I don’t think the numbers should affect his chances if he’s deserving. I do think he’ll have to wait. Maybe 5 years or more like Bob Greise.
6 time PB, 98-62-1 with 2 to TD to Int 32,000 passing and over 3,000 rushing yds is a HOF stat line.
QBs are always evaluated based on their success to win games regardless of the quality (or lack thereof) of talent that surrounds them. Frankly there is no value in assessing any player (QB, RB, WR or others) by their teammates, players need to be assessed on their own qualifications as there is no means to determine the difference more or less surrounding talent would have made. Winning conference championship games does matter and in the late 1980s/early 1990s the Bills were seen as one of the top offensive teams lead by Kelly. Also as was mentioned he has more post season awards and compare their playoff wins and numbers. The bottom line for McNabb is that there are 6-7 better QBs from his era going into the HOF and without top career numbers, SBs, and all pro teams he simply falls short of those players and the standard. McNabb is not going to get into the HOF and the longer he waits (which he will because his qualifications are so weak) the other 2000s QBs will start appearing on the ballot pushing him further down. In my view their is a limit to the number of players at a position elected into the HOF for any giving decade for which I would set at no more then 6 or 7.
mcnabb is a pansy will never get into the hall of fame as long as im alive
@Tony P. – That stat line was a HOF line for a QB in the 70’s-90’s almost for sure. In today’s game, I’m not so sure. You also listed two other factors that I think get more credit for the four NFCC games–Westbrook, and most importantly the defense.
Speaking of Eagles potential HOFers–Brian Dawkins officially retired. I’m sure we’ve bantered about regarding his name before, but 4 AP All-Pros, 8 Pro Bowls (9 according to PFT), All-00’s team…
Given the lack of love for Safeties by HOF voters, and with Reed/Polamalu coming not too far after in the pecking order, Dawkins might not get in year one, but seems like another HOF stats line. What say the ZB regulars? I might try to get a poll up for him later today…
Dawkins would get my support for the HOF. He’ll wait a while but should get in eventually as I believe the safety position will finally start to get the recognition it deserves in Canton. I’d rank him next in line after Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu and ahead of John Lynch and Darren Sharper. I think there’s room for 3 safeties from the same era, but there will be perhaps be a cutoff point after that,
Dawkins will be on the ballot in 2017 where he will almost certainly find himself in competition with Lynch, Steve Atwater and LeRoy Butler. Eventually the latter two will likely fall off the modern era list into the Seniors pool in the middle of the next decade. Reed is 34 and perhaps has no more than 2 seasons left. He’s pretty much a slam dunk choice imo around 2020. Polamalu just turned 31 so if we give him 5 more seasons he should be on the ballot by approx 2022/23 and should get elected soon after. By 2025 I think we might regard Dawkins as the best remaining safety, and maybe even defensive back (Polamalu, Reed, C.Woodson elected and Revis not yet eligible), on the modern era list.
Dawkins would be a good candidate but as has been mentioned the issue with electing Safeties first needs to be resolved, then start to address the backlog. Reed and Polamalu are just the ones as candidates to push the issue on electing safeties. Also worth noting that only three Safeties from the last three decade teams (70s, 80s, and 90s) are in the HOF which is why I referred to the safety position in a previous post as the most underrepresented modern position in the HOF.
Also my main issue with McNabb is that as the 7 or 8th best QB from the 2000s decade his discussion by the voters and possible election to the HOF would draw more deserving attention from other top 5 players at other positions for HOF consideration. That is my main concern with the weaker or marginal candidates, how they end up impacting other players especially from the less “glamorous” positions such as OL and defense from getting discussed and potentially elected.
brian dawkins is a first ballot hall of famer no question about it
Brian will be inducted. It won’t be on the first ballot though. That is a tall order.
I think if you had asked me 4 years ago if McNabb was a hall of famer, I would have said yes, but two things have happened since then:
1) His play fell off a cliff, so any edge he may have gained from good counting stats became stagnated.
2) Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger won their 2nd Super Bowls.
What McNabb definitely has going for him are the 6 Pro Bowls (every eligible non-AFL QB with over 4 Pro Bowls is in the Hall), a great TD:INT ratio, and his standing as one of the best duel threats at QB of his era.
The biggest problem with McNabb though is exactly what Paul said though, he’s really only the 7th-8th best QB of his era, and on top of that he fails to standout in any area. He fell just short of 100 career wins (he had 98, the same as Drew Bledsoe and Dave Krieg), he obviously had a rough time late in the playoffs, he never threw for over 4,000 yards in a passing era, he only cleared 25 passing TD’s twice, and he was never named even a 2nd-team All-Pro by any organization. He also fumbled a fair bit even after he stopped being a running QB, which offset his great TD:INT ratio, and while he was a great running QB early in his career, he quickly got overshadowed by Michael Vick.
On top of that, there are a lot of intangible things holding him back as well, including his late-career attitude problems, his reputation as a questionable leader, the fact that he padded his passing stats with a ton of short passes, and his inability to succeed outside of the West Coast offense late in his career.
I was always a McNabb fan throughout his Philly tenure and thought he was very underappreciated, but I’ve really soured on him over the past 2 years.
As for Dawkins, he’s one of my favourite players that I’ve ever seen play, and will make the hall someday. First-ballot though? I don’t think so, he’s no Sanders or Woodson.
kenny stabler has a better chance of getting into the hall of fame than donovan mcnabb will ever be
McNabb is also as case for why you need to be careful evaluating a player for potential HOF based on several years and not until the full career is completed.
Seems like some of you guys are letting your dislike for McNabb get in the way of having a bias opinion. I don’t doubt that with that opinion a HOF caliber player like McNabb will left waiting for a very long time.
I’ve seen many of his games. That’s where I form a lot of my opinion. After so many years I don’t need to break down every stat. The stats I care about are his TEAM’s regular season and playoff wins. Along with his 234 TD’s to 117 INT and 3,000 yds rushing for a QB is enough for me. The guy put it on the line (getting the hell beat out of him to make first downs) in a damn tough city to please.
As far as comparing McNabb to Kelly I maybe could of selected a better comparison. Not fair to McNabb because Kelly’s surrounding players were better. It is still a TEAM sport. Not even the Great Dan Marino could go to more than one SB with mainly average players around him in his prime.
Seems like some of you guys are letting your dislike for McNabb get in the way of having a bias opinion. I’ve seen a lot of his games. That’s where I form a lot of my opinion. After so many years I don’t need to break down every stat. The stats I care about are his TEAM’s regular season and playoff wins. Along with his 234 TD’s to 117 INT and 3,000 yds rushing for a QB is enough for me. The guy put it on the line (getting the hell beat out of him to make first downs) in a damn tough city to please.
As far as comparing McNabb to Kelly I maybe could of selected a better comparison. Not fair to McNabb because Kelly’s surrounding players were better. It is still a TEAM sport. Not even the Great Dan Marino could go to more than one SB with spotty talent at best in many team positions.
As for the Eagles defense, it was a great scheme of nonstop blitzing the QB but not talented enough to go to four straight SBs like Buffalo did. Buffalo’s talent was much better overall. And certianly the best group the AFC could put forward during those years. They had the misfortune of “wide right” and playing one of the best teams in football history in the Cowboys twice.
Probaby should of compared McNabb to Steve McNair. I don’t believe McNair should make HOF but he was far more likeable that’s for sure. RIP
Sorry about the double copy.
It is pretty simple with McNabb, as the sixth or seventh best QB of his era his career numbers (including wins, SBs, all pro/pro bowls) falls short of deserving the HOF. There simply is not room in the HOF for the 7th best QB from an era. He may have been a great QB for a few years (as was McNair) but that alone does not make a HOF career. For QBs winning is a very important factor, regardless of the talent or lack of, that surrounds you. So unless you are about the top 10 in career numbers, you need to win SBs. Fact is that for all his success and great years, McNabb has done neither. I do not hate him personally, just when you compare him against his QB peers he fall short of a HOF career.
you can’t compare mcnabb to jim kelly at all
Sorry but winning is not something I believe in when it comes to the Hall of Fame.
Corey the aim of the game is to win, of all the positions QBs have always been judged (fairly or unfairly) on wins and losses, especially in the playoffs. It is a fair means to assess the performance of a QBs and has always been a factor in HOF elections for QBs and often other positions such as RB and WR. Unless a QB has a strong winning record in the playoffs and SB then only the top 5 in career numbers is going to get you in the HOF. A reasonable standard to expect for a QB. Ultimately Luck and RGIII will be judged on whether they win or not. So will any QB deserving of the HOF.
Thank you Corey. LOL!! Finally some added objectivity to the process. :)
I think it’s always difficult to evaluate a great player when 2/3 of his career was HOF caliber and the last 1/3 was average or below. How many superb years are needed? I would think positions very some.
Especially at RB due to the length of their careers. I know I tend to want to give certian guys who played at a high level for a shorter time a spot in the HOF. I keep thinking back to Gale Sayers and Joe Namath. Maybe the voters want more now? They want a HOF career (start to finish or at least 10 years) versus HOF player who didn’t have a fairy tale ending. But how reasonable is that with such a violent game?
I totally don’t agree that there needs to be some sort of restriction regarding the number of QB’s or any other positions that can be put into the HOF for a given decade. Do you think the folks deciding are thinking that way? I hope not because there are a lot of HOF caliber RB’sfor example from the late 1990’s that I’d put in.
So agreeing with you = objectivity? :-)
I agree that there doesn’t have to be a set cap on number of players from a given position from an era/decade. But at the end of the day, if McNabb is #7 from his era, I think there is a significant gap between #6 and him.
Not sure how you are considering 2/3 of his career HOF worthy and 1/3 average or below. I see two seasons that could maybe be considered HOF worthy (’04 and ’09) and two more that would be borderline HOF (’08 & ’07). Two more (’01 and ’03) we could debate, but I don’t think make the grade. The rest are pretty ‘meh’ to me–so there you’re talking about more than half his career that I don’t think is anywhere near HOF level, and slightly less than 1/3 that I would consider even close.
That’s just not enough for me to really consider him a HOFer.
I’m not saying he will be a hall of famer, nor am I saying he won’t be. Judging a player after one season is far from the ideal way of determining whether or not they are a HOFer. That being said, Cam Newtons’ rookie performance was certainly top ten all time in NFL history. Not sports, because Wilt averaging 37 points and 27 rebounds has something to say. Regardless, he impacted the Panthers much more than you think.
His 20 passing TD’s is 3rd best all time by a rookie. His 4,051 is the most by a rookie and just the fourth rookie QB to throw for 3,00 yards. He is the sixth QB, rookie or not, to have back to back 400 yard passing games. He did it in his first two games. Fastest player to throw for 1,000 yards. First player in NFL history with 4,000+ pass yards and 10+ rush TDs in a season. First player in NFL history with 4,000+ pass yards and 500+ rush yards in a season. 14 rushing TDs is the most by any QB of all time; and there are more accolades.
He changed the Panthers team. They scored 196 points(last in NFL), with only 17 total TD’s in 2010. In 2011, Cam’s rookie year, they scored 410 points(5th) and 48 total TDs. One side of the ball that didn’t change for the good was defense. In 2010 they gave up 408 points(26th). In 2011 they gave up 429 points(27th). Jon Beason should return after that horrid injury and since they drafted Luke Kuechly, Inside Linebacker last night; they are moving into the defensive direction; the right direction; they realize that Cam is there future and the “future of the league” and want to keep him as long as possible. If they can build a serviceable defense for him; for the next 5-10 seasons, this team will be a tough team. In five seasons we will have a better understanding of who he really is. But my gut feeling is he is something special.
Tony wrote. “So agreeing with you = objectivity? ” .
Coming from you I’m disappointed that you would misconstrue the meaning of my words after I’ve written enough to equal a short book on your website.
You have a knowledgeable group of regulars for sure. Maybe you should defer to them when you feel the urge to cheap shot your posters.
@Tony P. – There was supposed to be a GRIN after my comment–apparently if you use the carrots, it reads it as HTML, and it didn’t come through. Sorry about that–I knew you weren’t serious–at least I assume you weren’t based on the smiley face. I certainly wouldn’t intentionally cheap shot a regular poster like yourself. (UPDATE: I updated my comment above to reflect that–teaches me for trying to avoid using smilies…)
Gale Sayers and Joe Namath changed the game of football, you simply can not say that about the several RBS from the 1990s and 2000s that have 10,000 yard careers. The HOF is not alone about building up season or career numbers, it is about impact on the history of the game. So much as we may like and appreciate the great careers of 1990 and 2000 RBs such as Taylor, Dillon, J Lewis, T Barber, E George and S Alexander none of them are getting into the HOF. And no there is no set “rule” that limits the number of players selected at any given position from a decade, but given past voting history it certainly appears that the HOF selection committee does place a value on limiting the number of players from a position within a decade to a reasonable number such as 5 or 6. One you get to the 7th best or lower it becomes a question of how distinguished a HOF career would be.
sorry I meant to say….
“So much as we may like and appreciate the great careers of 1990 and 2000 RBs such as Taylor, Dillon, J Lewis, T Barber, E George and S Alexander NOT ALL them are getting into the HOF.
how about drew bledsoe? is he a hall-of-famer or just borderline?
I would put Bledsoe in the same camp as McNabb, in that he’ll likely lose out because of a numbers game. He’s probably the best QB of the late 90’s that won’t get inducted into the hall of fame.
I’d put his career on par, or maybe slightly below that of Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham, and Dave Krieg. The only one of those guys that I think might have a chance at induction is Cunningham, though support for him has been pretty nonexistent.
Bledsoe is not even close to a HOFer
but at least he is a borderline canidate though
I think he’s at least a borderline candidate that deserves a spot in the conversation (meaning I’d be fine if he was a yearly preliminary nominee). If you are talking about currently eligible modern-era candidates, I’d put him at #6 behind Randall Cunningham, Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Rich Gannon and Steve McNair (first-time eligible this year).
If you include senior-eligible QB’s, I’d probably put him at #10, as I’d also put him behind John Hadl, Ken Stabler and Ken Anderson.
For every deserving HOFer there are dozens of borderline candidates, and since anyone can name any player to the preliminary list I have no problem with Bledsoe or other borderline player ending up on that list, it is just that he does not deserve a spot in the list of 25 and 15 finalists as he would take a spot away from another player from other position who have HOF qualifications.
how about ken anderson from the bengals? he deserves to be in the hall of fame despite no super bowl win to his resume and the fact he somehow gets compared to joe montana who has the rings and better stats to back him up plus bill walsh was the offensive coordinator for ken anderson in the early years and helped made anderson be a great quarterback before bolting to san francisco
Absolutely, chris — I think Ken Anderson has the best argument by far of any Senior-eligible QB not in the HoF. From what I’ve seen, QBs with great stats routinely get in the HoF regardless of postseason success (Y.A. Tittle, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgensen, Dan Fouts, and Dan Marino are examples of HoF QB “stat” guys without “rings”), as do several good-level QBs with more than one “ring” (Bob Griese, Bobby Layne, and Terry Bradshaw are examples of this type). And every attempt I’ve seen to period-adjust QB stats shows Anderson being the sole elite non-HoF QB outlier surrounded by HoF-ers at the position — and that’s not true of anyone else I’ve seen. The next closest example, and he’s more at the fringes in such list rankings, is Roman Gabriel. And if one wants to add in “intangibles,” one could argue that Anderson was the first successful example of a West Coast offense style QB; that strikes me as pretty significant.
I think Anderson belongs in the HoF, no question.
“Corey the aim of the game is to win, of all the positions QBs have always been judged (fairly or unfairly) on wins and losses, especially in the playoffs. It is a fair means to assess the performance of a QBs and has always been a factor in HOF elections for QBs and often other positions such as RB and WR. Unless a QB has a strong winning record in the playoffs and SB then only the top 5 in career numbers is going to get you in the HOF. A reasonable standard to expect for a QB. Ultimately Luck and RGIII will be judged on whether they win or not. So will any QB deserving of the HOF.”
I can’t judge RGIII or Luck on if they win or not. I think too many people have that kind of mentality and I disagree with it. Fran Tarkenton said that quarterbacks don’t win championships, teams win championships. Imagine if the Colts won Super Bowl XLIV, if everything else remained the same, I would still call Drew Brees a future Hall of Famer because of how incredible his career has been. Sometimes a quarterback does everything but stand on their head- case in point Brees this year against San Francisco. Sometimes the team just lets their quarterback down because he gave them the lead twice.
If Stafford continues to have the kind of seasons he had this year for about the next decade or so but he falls short of a ring, I would say he has an argument for Canton.
The thing about Anderson is that he was on an upward trajectory for his entire career. I like that. A lot of folks think he should be in the HOF. I don’t know but he was certianly one of the best the 1970’s had to offer. It seemed remarkable at the time that he led CINNCY to their first SB.
IMO it’s easier to judge a guy like that than a guy who had his greatest sucess at the end like Gannon and Cunningham.
Hadl was the made bomber. I only saw him play for the Rams. Even in his mid-30’s the “mad bomer” could fling it with the best. It was a beautiful thing to see when he hooked up with WR Harold Jackson.
Now there’s a guy who would have my vote. I guess it’s not realistic to think WR’s of past decades will get their just due any time soon if ever.
What are there, four QB’s from the 70’s in the HOF? Bradshaw has two WR’s in the HOF, Griese has one, Fouts has one, Len Dawson has 0, Tarkington has 0, and Staubach has 0. Than other top QB’s who played in the 70’s like Gabriel, Bert Jones, Grogan, Jaworski, Pastorino and John Brodie all have WR teammates NOT the HOF.
Here are some WR I like. I know some of these guys are a stretch but I still like hearing their names in the conversation. :) Harold Jackson*, Harold Cunningham*, Nat Moore, Stanley Morgan*, John Jefferson, Wes Chandler, Isaac Curtis*, Roger Carr, John Gilliam, Mel Gray, Gene Washington*, Ken Burrough, Drew Pearson* and Tony Hill, Otis Taylor* and Wesley Walker*. Check out Roger Carr’s 1976 stats. Subsequently QB Bert Jones had his best season too. I could go on and on with OLD deserving WR’s. IMO it’s the most disappointing are of the HOF backlog. Also to a lesser degree the fact no Nose Guards are in the HOF.
Sorry to stray back in time. It’s what I think I know best although I’m sure many will disagree which is fine – Tony. :)
I haven’t looked at the numbers but feel like Phil Sims and Joe Theisman belong in the HOF. Any thoughts on them? What about Sterling Sharpe? What about future TE’s to make the HOF? Any chance the voters overlook their antics and consider Jeremy Shocky
and Chad Ocho Cinco?
Junior Seau RIP
HOF class of 2015.
Very sad about Junior Seau :(
Seau was one of my all-time favorites. Sad to see.
The only way Shocky and Ocho Cinco get in the HOF is if they buy admission tickets. The HOF is for the very best players with outstanding career records, awards, SBs, and those who changed the game – Shocky and Ocho Cinco do not even come close to that standard, like many other players who had very good careers and perhaps a few great years, they simply are not deserving. For every player who makes the HOF from their era there are always going to be several with a few pro bowls and great seasons that do not – and that is the way it should be, to set and maintain a high standard for election. The same argument is made for the case of McNabb and Sharpe.
“Imagine if the Colts won Super Bowl XLIV, if everything else remained the same, I would still call Drew Brees a future Hall of Famer because of how incredible his career has been. ”
I agree, because even without a SB, Drew Brees has put together an outstanding career and fantastic individual seasons, he did not need the SB win to validate his HOF qualifications. McNabb (and many other QBs without SBs) simply have not had the quality careers like Brees and as such they will not be elected to the HOF.
Now Phil Sims and Joe Theisman have the other problem, a SB win, a few great seasons, but fall very short of overall great careers and at this point they are unlikely to receive enough support to be considered as modern candidates and will thus end up falling into the deep, and getting deeper, seniors pool. Especially as the great QBs from the 1990s and 2000s start entering the modern candidate list.
If the HOF is going to remain exclusive and selective (only 5-7 selected per year) it simply means that much of many very good players (such as the WRs and QBs from the 70s and 80s listed earlier) are not getting into the HOF. The standard should be very high as it is.
Seau played the game the right way more than just about any I can remember in modern era. He would put his all into a hit butit didn’t seem like there was any malicious intent like so many knuckleheads today.Just a guy that loved the game. He got the job done for an amazing 20 years. So much more to live for. A very sad day in the history of the Football.
On a side note hopefully some of the stigma regarding suicide will be removed going forward as the pubic better understands the effects of head trauma. In particular I hope the case of JimTyrer is revisited. Maybe his murder suicide was more than depression or failed businesses. It just might be time to put him in the HOF??
Paul, I appreciate your opinion but I don’t think we agree on much expect being blount. LOL
I don’t really care if a player changed the game. Maybe I misunderstood and you don’t mean literally? Gale Sayer put his mark on the game by being one of the most elusive Halfbacks ever seen but I don’t believe he changed the game. Unless Defenses began some new style formation to stop him or maybe a new shoe with different cleets came about during his play. :)
The same goes for Joe Namath. IMO he’s given way more credit than he deserved and is a marginal HOFer at best. I’m not alone in that opinion on this site for what that counts.
Namath threw a beautiful spiral for over 4,000 yards and he predicted correctly his team’s upset victory in the Super Bowl. Brash play gained him notoriety but it was his image living outside the lines in New York City that gave him his greatest fame.
On the field Joe could be described much like you said of Joe Theisman and Simms with a SB and a few good years and not much else. Except without looking I bet Joe Willy had many more Int’s.
I wish we could grade comments. I’d be giving out 4 stars. Bachslunch, very good discussion about Anderson.
I am referring to players that made the history of the game. As I said before if you were to write say a three page paper about the NFL of the 1960s both Sayer and Namath would be highlighted and yes the first major college player signing during the NFL/AFL war, the first 4,000 yard season and first AFL SB win are major historical milestones that Namath gets credit for and a deserving spot in the HOF. Sayers’ threat as RB and WR was also a major shift in the value of speed and impact on the game including coaching and game strategy.
SIms and Theisman each one a SB and had perhaps 1-2 great seasons, but it would be very easy to write a short history of the NFL in the 1980s and not even mention them, in fact their respective coaches who each won multiple SBs would be more predominate in such a history.
Again as I stated before pure numbers (seasons, careers) are important in stating the case for the HOF only if they are historical numbers: season or career totals. Wins are very important, especially SBs, and also the historical impact such players have had on the game.
4× Pro Bowl (1965, 1966, 1967, 1969)
5× All-Pro (1965–1969)
NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
1965 UPI NFL-NFC Rookie of the Year
3× Pro Bowl MVP (1967, 1966, 1969)
2× NFL Rushing champion (1966, 1969)
(in seven year career)
Sorry but that is a HOFer
and so is this…..
5× AFL All-Star selection (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969)
1x Pro Bowl selection (1972)
3× First-team All-AFL selection (1967, 1968, 1969)
1x All-Pro selection (1972)
1× Second-team All-AFL (1966)
American Football League Champion (1968)
Super Bowl Champion (III)
AFL All-Time Team
2× AFL MVP (1968, 1969)
2× UPI AFL Player of the Year (1968, 1969)
Tony P., thanks for the kind words. I have to say, I think the level of HoF discussion here is very high, and there are a whole bunch of folks here who seem really perceptive on the subject: Paul, boknows34, BSLO, gosh the list just goes on. It’s one of the reasons I like to keep my nose in this forum.
I agree with Bachslunch, unfortunately I doubt that the high quality and level of HOF discussion here is matched by the actual HOF voters and their meetings. I understand many of the HOF voters work hard, due the necessary research and take their roles very seriously, but I believe that not case for all too many of them.
very sad to hear about junior seau, its a shame and he is definitely a first ballot hall of famer once he is eligible in 2014, depending on other finalists that will be with him during that time, if its a weak class, then automatically a first-ballot guy, one of the most underrated linebackers to ever play in the nfl and its just sad that when he does get inducted into the hall of fame, he won’t get do his speech and be part of the induction celebration in person, he will have to be inducted posthumsely just like derrick thomas did in 2009. Rest in peace, junior seau.
I’m not claiming Joe Namath of being one the best QBs of all time. But he certainly did well despite his TD-Int ratio, which at the time he played wasn’t that bad. Joe Namath was the first QB to throw for 4,000 yards , which he did in 1967. The first QB to throw for 3,000 yards in a season was Frank Tripucka in 1960. Thats not too bad for Joe. He led the AFL in passing yards twice and NFL once. Led NFL once in passing TDs. He won a Super Bowl and was named SB MVP.
Seau is first eligible for the class of 2015
2015 Newly eligible: Isaac Bruce, Edgerrin James, Walter Jones, Ty Law, Kevin Mawae, Orlando Pace, Junior Seau, Kurt Warner
his 1st year election (which I would support) may also depend on carry over from both 2014 and 2013 years (and 2012):
2014 Newly eligible: Tony Dungy, Marvin Harrison, Derrick Brooks
2013 Newly eligible: Larry Allen, Morten Andersen, Priest Holmes, Steve McNair, Jonathan Ogden, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, Bryant Young
Personally, I don’t think his election depends on any carry over–I think he’s about as close to a lock as there is to be a first year inductee.
Then again, I thought the same thing about Randall McDaniel–that’s what started us writing about the HOF in the first place years ago…
I agree he is a 1st year lock, certainly has a very strong case for it (more so then some recent 1st year players that were elected and better then the case for some people were making for unelected 1st year players last few years), but you are right that with need for 80% it only takes a few no votes to stop a selection.
yeah, and also the 2014 and 2015 classes are very weak as opposed to 2012 that just happened and next year for 2013, so he could get in first ballot as they try to get more defensive players in more as opposed to offensive players
the first time nominees in 2012 were pretty weak but the quality of the pool of 15 finalists is pretty good, I think the number of first time nominees is better in 2013 than 2014 but 2015 will also be fairly deep. The bigger issue for 2013 and the next few years is the continued carryover from 2012 that will take a few years to resolve mostly due to the backlog at WR and the upcoming backlog at OL and DL. I can see first time selections in 2013 of Allen and/or Strahan, 2014 Brooks (possible) and 2015 Seau.
I would think Brooks is lock as a first ballot HOF lockalong with Seau. Remarkably long careers at such a high standard. Just awesome. Allen without doubt is a first timer but I to thought McDaniel would be. The voters for some reason feel it’s ok to treat the OL players with some reluctance.
Allen and his linemates routinely created holes that a bus could drive through for Emmitt Smith. As a Cowboy hater I used to absolutely despise how good those mid-90’s teams were. I believe that first SB Team that beat the Bill 52-17 was the BEST I’ve ever seen.
I was struck with a thought as I was watching Warren Sapp on the NFL Network and thinking about his career that Sapp he might be a boarderline HOF player.
Than after reviewing the stats I came to the conclusion that he probably did statistically have HOF career although I only really remember a short window dominance. I think the guy struggled with his weight and by the his late 20’s that famous motor slowed down. I do remember one year with the Raiders late in his career in which he returned to form and folks started talking about him.
I remember a lot of the pub was being directed away from Sapp and towards Brooks and Rice as the stars of the team by the time of SB 2002. Sapp wasn’t the electric player by that time.
Any way to the point :). I think Sapp may end up waiting a while with such player as Lynch, Brooks and Ronde Barber being very strong candidates.
And dare I suggest that Cortez Kennedy’s career was like Sapp’s and risk being everyone’s roasted pig again. :) I’ll just say generally comparing their careers I can see Sapp waiting at least as long as Kennedy did which was 7 years.
IMO compared to other DT’s in the HOF: Alan Page, Merlin Olson, Bob Lilly, Mean Joe Greene, Randy White; Warren Sapp looks like one of the weaker DT to be elected. I don’t doubt those other guys sack number would rival Sapp and I know they had to have more tackles.
Kennedy’s election should help Sapp. The only thing that might hurt is if people see him as this happy go lucky fellow who somehow underachieved. That wouldn’t be right IMO.
Tony P., I’m also thinking Cortez Kennedy is a good comparable player for Warren Sapp. Postseason honors:
Kennedy — 3(3AP)/8/90s
Sapp — 4(4AP)/7/90s00s
as well as a reputation for greatness marred by times of uninspired play. Kennedy’s being elected to the HoF makes me think it’s very unlikely Sapp also doesn’t get in, but like Kennedy, he’ll probably wait a few years.
Page, Olsen, Lilly, Green, and White arguably constitute the upper crust of HoF DTs since the 60s, but given that Dan Hampton, Buck Buchanan, Henry Jordan, John Randle, and Kennedy got elected as well, there’s more than ample precedent for Sapp joining them.
Warren Sapp anchored the line of one of the best defenses ever, along with Simeon Rice; Simeon had an underrated career. Yes 1/3/none is not special, but getting 100 sacks isn’t that easy and being the 2nd fastest to achieve 100 sacks, behind a player named Reggie White, is a special accolade. Seasons of 16.5, 15.5,15.0,14.0,12.5,12.0,11.0,10.0 are solid seasons. In 2002, he had 4 sacks in the playoffs(3 games) including 2 in the super bowl. Simeon had 33 games with at least 2 sacks, Bruce Smith has 43. 10 more indeed; Bruce played in 105 more games than Rice. Not claiming Simeon of being as good or better than Bruce, but Simeon was a solid Defensive Lineman.
i think though that strahan has a better shot of getting in first than warren sapp just because of the better stats that strahan possesses and he was a much better player all around also
I agree as well that the Kennedy/Sapp comparison is good one. I doubt very much that Sapp will be a first-ballot inductee, but I don’t think he’ll have to wait as long as Kennedy to get inducted for 3 reasons:
1) The backlog of worthy defensive linemen/pass rushing linebackers is much smaller than when Kennedy became eligible, so Sapp should enter the queue at 4th in line behind Strahan, Haley and Greene. At least one of those 3 should get inducted this year.
2) There are very few great candidates coming up at DL (the next serious contender might be Jason Taylor), so it shouldn’t take Sapp long to be at the front of the conversation.
3) He’s bound to get off to a better start with his candidacy. Kennedy took 3 years to make the semifinalist list (in his 2nd year he wasn’t even a preliminary nominee), while Sapp should be at least a semifinalist, if not a finalist, right off the bat.
As for the Brooks/Seau debate (RIP Junior by the way), I would rather see Brooks in ahead of him 100%. Brooks was the best coverage linebacker I’ve ever seen, and while he is slightly behind Seau in Pro Bowls and All-Pros, he has a DPOY award and a Super Bowl ring, neither of which Seau has. I don’t know why Seau consistently is called a first-ballot lock, while Brooks isn’t.
Maybe it’s my inner Chiefs fan bias coming out, but I always thought Seau was massively overrated. I know that it’s not always fair to judge great players on bad teams, but he never stood out in any way to me. He was a good tackler, a good pass rusher, and decent in coverage, but from what I saw against the Chiefs, he wasn’t an absolute difference maker in any of those areas. Compared to some of his peers, he also contributed little in the realm of forced fumbles (11 over a 20-year career), and only scored a grand total of 1 defensive touchdown in his career. Obviously he didn’t play with nearly the talent that Brooks did, but during his 12-year Pro Bowl run, San Diego’s defense finished an average of 17th in points allowed, and 15th in yards allowed which is smack-dab in the middle of the league.
I don’t doubt Seau is a hall of famer, but I have a hard time understanding how he made 12 consecutive Pro Bowls, and I don’t feel like he was nearly the impact player that some of the best of all-time at the linebacker position were. Just my 2 cents.
Of course Derrick Brooks is a first ballot Hall of Famer. One of the best linebackers ever.
Based on resent Derrick Brook comment’s I got the feeling he thinks Seau should be a first ballot HOFer. Seau was his idol growing up. Maybe his glasses are rose colored but I whole heartedly agree. Sometimes these players are around so long we forget the best parts of there careers. LOL!
Yup, I overlooked some of those other HOF DT’s with a slightly lower profile. I’d put John Randle near the top of the position. NFL fans in general were robbed of a great Super Bowl Match upin 1998 when the Minnesota Viking’s Kicker Gary missed a last second field goal to beat the Atlanta Falcons. I often wonder how good that SB could of been with Minnesota playing John Elway’s Denver Broncos. The game we got sucked and was over by halftime.
A Viking’s SB win would of elevated everyone career. I bet Carter would be in the HOF by now. How about we talk about Randall Cunningham for a HOF spot? I’m glad fans watched Randle’s career more than I did and ended up in Canton.
Randall Cunningham,if stayed healthy, would have a more serious case. He was hurt a good amount. When healthy, he was a solid thrower and an elusive runner.
Tony P., you wrote: “Yup, I overlooked some of those other HOF DT’s with a slightly lower profile. I’d put John Randle near the top of the position.”
The main argument I can see against having Randle be among the Olsons and Pages at DT is the fact that he did not play well against the run.
it still bothers me that cris cater is still not in the hall of fame as of now, better change that next year for 2013
Randall Cunningham would also have needed better passing numbers and playoff wins, and it stands based on his career numbers he simply is not a HOFer. But I suppose given those conditions may other players, including other QBs from his era would also have a better chance at the HOF.
John Randle was a a great player but in terms of all time DT I would place him behind several other HOFs (Page, Greene, Lilly, Olsen, R White, Buchanan,) and perhaps even Kennedy and Sapp.
Yes Carter should be the HOF, but as we have discussed many times apparently a few HOF voters prefer Reed (or Brown), thus the logjam at the WR position. Although I do not agree with those voters I can see how they can make the case for Reed as the difference between the two is really not that great when you consider all their career achievements. Carter was also hurt by the timing to Rice’s appearance on the ballot and election. But I really think it will start to get sorted out during the 2013 elections with either Carter or Reed finally getting selected.
yeah ur right, and possibly charles haley as well but then again the media and the writers would probably still not vote for him again because of him disliking the media which shouldn’t be the case, but you never know
Well Haley made it into the final 10 which history has shown assures eventual election perhaps as soon as 2013 given the renewed effort to get more defensive players elected. In fact I feel better about his chances to get elected then the other four guesses I have made (Allen, Carter, Strahan, Williams), all of whom have some issues going against them including 1st time elections and the backlog now at WR, OL and DL, plus now I have to throw Parcells back into the mix!
And maybe CC will wait another year if he keeps shooting his mouth off about his participation in bounties. :)
That’s just Carter being Carter when he says “that’s the game he grew up in”. LOL! You know, the mean streets of the 90’s. It was only tougher in his day because he talked trash all day. Nothing but a headline maker. Saying he had to buy protection because he had a family to feed. Commissioner Godell must be wincing to hear that.
CC, if you shut your damn mouth, don’t confront crazy men like the Bronco’s Bill Romanofski before games than trouble won’t find you. You mean you can’t avoid a big slow LB?
I haven’t any stories from Jerry Rice. Now there’s a guy to put a bounty on. :)
Funny, but Rice has now shed light on his own incident with Romanofski whhe a teammate of his. I think the story was getting too hot for Carter. Romanofski still says he never said he would end Carter’s career. I don’t believe either one! The truth is somewhere in the middle.
So what has Carter done, pitted himself versus a cheapshot steriod player (who I happened to of liked watching) and he’s(Carter) found out in today’s court of public opinion many folks think he’s lack’s creditability and is just trying to make a story. Better have more than he said she said, and it really wasn’t a bounty but protection.
just because cris carter is talking about all that bounty stuff, is not going to keep him out of the hall of fame, so he can voice his opinion and do whatever he wants or feels like doing
Chris, I said that tongue in cheek based on others who’ve suggested his reputation may of slowed his HOF entrance to this point. I don’t think they’re right but why risk it if you’re Carter. I think he knows that the way he wa backpeddaling yesterday. It’s never good to get your name associated with unfair play IMO. It didn’t hurt the “Golden Boy” but others not playing for the Packers could be hurt by monkey business.
ok, true. but the man has a right to say what he needs to say, yes was it wrong in some form, probably, but you can’t bury the guy and his reputation for saying what he feels that needs to be addressed, might as well come out with it now before its get out years and years from now so i wouldn’t worry about it whatsoever
only 82 days till the 2012 pro football hall of fame enshrinement festival
I have been several times over the years but not going this year. We also likely skip 50th anniversary next year and wait until after those crowds to see the new renovations later in fall next year.
Who out there nearing the end of their 25 year eligibilty would you guys most like over anyone else to be put in the HOF?
none that I can think of that I would put ahead of remaining finalists from 2012 and the top new 1st time nominees for 2013. Often there is a good reason why a player has not been elected after 20 years on the ballot (they are not as deserving as others on those 20 years of ballot).
jerry kramer to me would be an obvious choice to put in the hall of fame right away
Nobody that I’d put over the current top contenders, but if there’s one player who I think deserves more consideration than he’s received, it would be Todd Christensen. He’s heading into his final year of modern-era eligibility, and as far as I’m concerned he’s a step above every currently eligible tight end that’s not in the hall of fame, including Pete Retzlaff, Raymond Chester, Riley Odoms, Ben Coates, Brent Jones, Jay Novacek, Keith Jackson, Steve Jordan and others.
His peak was short (1982-1987), and like Shannon Sharpe he wasn’t a great blocker, but he put up an unheard of 4-year run of receiving numbers for a TE from 1983-1986, which included 4 straight years of 80 receptions (including 2 years where he led the NFL in receptions), and nearly 4 straight 1,000 yard seasons (he had 3 1,000 yard seasons and one with 987). Had he not spent basically his entire career playing in the same division as Kellen Winslow and the same conference as Ozzie Newsome, I think he’d be a lot less underrated than he is. Despite playing his entire career in the same conference as 2 hall of famers, he still made 5 Pro Bowls, and unlike Newsome and Winslow, he also collected 2 Super Bowl rings.
Not sure why he’s never even been a semi-finalist.
Jerry Kramer is in the senior pool already and will have to take his chances with the many other deserving players in there.
Mark Gastineau is about to see his modern eligibility expire, and I would vote for him. I think his case compares very favorably with Charles Haley’s.
Last time I checked Gastineau does not have 5 SB rings.
Mark Gastineau actually has a pretty decent HoF case with a postseason profile of 4(3AP)/5/none, though his career is a bit on the short side. If memory serves, those honors numbers are better than those of any other eligible d-lineman of the time not in the HoF. For some odd reason, he hasn’t made the preliminary list the last few years even though he’s eligible.
I’d actually seriously consider voting for him as well.
I’d say Ottis (O.J.) Anderson but I’d be picked apart because of his lack of Pro Bowls. Than I’d say if you saw him play you might think different. :) Here’s this kid who’s a beast of a runner (big, shiftly, elusive and fast!!) from some school in 1979 that I never heard of (something called U of Miami – I had only heard of Miami of Ohio) shredding the vaunted Dallas Flex Defense for 199 yds on a sunny St. Louis Sunday afternoon. It was amazing to see and it didn’t stop there. He eluded opponents 6 times for over 1,000 yds (could of been 7 if not for short season) on what was a mediocre team at best. The bad team along with 3 really bad things happened to Anderson, 1 was Walter Payton, 2 was Tony Dorsett and the 3rd sucked the rest of the air right out of the fans was named “Big” Earl Campbell. IMO there never has been a time with such excitement at the RB position. Before the stage for RB’s GREAT stature was Jim Brown than O.J.Simpson and now it was like the Mount Rushmore of Running Back Greats had landed from Mars. Than a year after Anderson you add “The Great” Billy Sims” and Air Coryell’s Chuck Muncie, and a year or so later, “The Pony Expresses” Eric Dickerson. Easy for Anderson to get overlooked!!
Than he blew out his knee out (surgery isn’t like today) in the mid -80’s after essentially 6 straight 1,000 yd seasons. It took him about 3 years to get back right but he never was the same. To his tremendous credit if not for his encore with the 1990 Giants they don’t win that SB. He transformed his 6’2″ frame into something a little more and literally became 3 yards and a cloud of dust. That year really cemented Parcell’s philosophy of pounding the rock. Anderson gained over 1,000 yds with only a 3.1 average but they were yards right up the gut that everyone knew were coming but with O.J. it wasn’t 6-7yds one run and 1yd on another. It was 3.1, 3.1, 3.1. His yards were all so meaningful. That’s how you keep the ball twice as long as the Bills and win 20-19. A missed FG doesn’t hurt either LOL!! That’s why Anderson is remembered so fondly by Giant fans and non like me. If not for his encore with the 1990 Giants they don’t win that SB. If you ever get to watch film of him from his Cardinal days do it!
But I’m not saying Anderson LOL!!
I’ll make it short – FB Roger Craig. He played FB for half his career. Compare his stats to FB Larry Csonka or John Riggins and than consider how great of a pass catcher he was with the newly formed “West Coast Offense”. They don’t pass the ball in Nebraska!! He became the prototypical back that most teams desire (unfortunately) today. I still think Marino maybe gets his SB Ring if Montana didn’t have Craig to carve up Miami’s D with.
Ok, fire away at my pick. I like Gastineau have discussed before that I go with his teammate Joe Klecko.
Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson should of been is 30 years ago. It almost is like the voters in the 1980’s were envious of their tremendous successin everything they did??
A guy playing today that I’ve noticing for a long time but is only now getting recognition is DE is Justin Smith. He’s a great tackler and less of a pass rusher but I think that’s related to D scheme. I thought he was the most impressive D player for the 49ers last year, even more than S Carlos Rogers and LB Pat Willis. Just saw ESPN 60 on Willis. He’s awesome young man! IMO Smith should get make the HOF. Maybe Willis too if he stays on track/
Unfortunately with only 1 all pro and 2 pro bowl selections Ottis Anderson is just another of the 10,000 yard backs (he ranks 25th all time) with a few great seasons (and in his case one great SB) that simply does not have the quality or length of career deserving of the HOF, with the change to the 16 game season there are many players with multiple 1000 yard seasons and 10,000 yard careers who simply are not going to get into the HOF (along with many 800+ rec WRs). Frankly I can not see his case for the HOF surpassing the remaining finalists from 2012 and those coming in on the ballot in the next few years, and I am not even sure when he falls into the seniors pool that he will fair much better in there against many more deserving players.
I do agree that Craig has a strong case but his time on the modern ballot many start running out as well as other RBs start to crowd the ballot in future years.
There has been much discussed about why Kramer (who has been a finalist before) has not been elected, but plenty of people including voters have strong opinions in both directions as to his HOF candidacy. I suspect with continued turnover of HOF voters his name will someday again appear on the senior finalist list, just not sure when. And as I and other mentioned before, Robinson has been impacted by the lack of respect for AFL career players, but I also see his appearance as a senior candidate soon.
Behind Todd Christensen, I’d agree that Craig and Gastineau would be up there too. In Craig’s case, I’m holding out hope that he might be able to get in within the next 6 years before he gets banished to the senior’s pool. I personally like his career accomplishments more than I like Bettis’ but I think that unfortunately he’s going to have to wait until Bettis gets inducted to get a clear shot. If Bettis can get in within the next 2 years, I think that Craig has a chance to get an “end of the candidacy” bump into the Hall.
Ottis Anderson is a very interesting case. He had an unusual career in that his peak happened early, he had a nice comeback later on, and he wound up with a long career that was short on Pro Bowls, but high on other individual awards. I ultimately think that he’ll get caught in a numbers game since there are a lot of running backs from his era inducted already, and one other one (Roger Craig) not yet inducted that deserves to get in more than he does, but I wouldn’t completely sell his chances short.
When it comes to skill position players (especially those that have been retired for 20 years), I personally don’t think that it’s fair to judge them based on their spots on all-time lists in present day. I think a much better analysis can be done by examining where they stood on said lists when they retired. By using this logic, Anderson’s career looks a whole lot better. He retired in 1992 8th all-time in rushing yards, and 7th all-time in rushing TD’s. In both cases, all of the backs ahead of him and the majority of the backs right behind him on those lists were current or eventual hall of famers. The only other currently eligible player that can match that claim is Jerome Bettis, who in all likelihood will be inducted within the next 5 classes.
The hall has shown a tendency in the past to look at Senior backs that retired high on the all-time rushing list who had otherwise unremarkable careers (see John Henry Johnson, Floyd Little), and since they inducted John Riggins, I’m not sure that you can ever discount the chance of a compiler with low Pro Bowls and All-Pros getting an eventual nod.
What I also like about Anderson is that he’s won some other awards that somewhat help offset his lack of Pro Bowls/All-Pros. He was the Offensive Rookie of the Year in 1979, the Comeback Player of the Year in 1989, and the Super Bowl MVP in 1990. If you combine that with his high standing on the rushing lists at the time of his retirement, his 2 Super Bowl rings, his above-average playoff performance (at least 58 rushing yards in every game he started), and the fact that he was also a threat as a receiver (376 career receptions) you have a pretty decent case. Will he get inducted as a modern-era candidate? Nope, but I wouldn’t discount his chances as a senior candidate.
how about mark bavaro, former tight end for the bill parcells led new york giants teams?
Craig and Anderson will also be greatly impacted by the continued presence of Bettis on the ballot (he will get elected before they do) and others such as T Barber, T Davis and then as additional RBs start to enter consideration in the coming years such as E James, E George, S, Alexander, LT, and Fred Taylor. Now I am not saying all of those are more deserving then Craig or Anderson but they will clutter the preliminary and 25 finalist lists and muddy the path for Craig and Anderson as a backlog of RBs starts to occur as voters make cases for different RBs, similar to what is happening with the current WRs, OL and DL positions. The longer Craig and Anderson stay unelected the harder it will get and I would not hold out much immediate improvement once they fall into the seniors pool as we have already had plenty of debate here as to the quality of depth in that pool that already exists.
And I understand players should be judged on the era they played and the numbers (rankings) they held when they retired, but the huge offensive numbers of players from the 1990s beyond are going to unfortunately drive the careers of many earlier players down and right into the seniors pool. As more players from the teams of the 1990s and 2000s start to become eligible these players from the 1980s are going to find themselves where the 1960s and 1970s players are now in terms of the modern ballot – buried. In case of players like Craig and Anderson for example, it is only going to get harder to separate them from the many other 10,000 year RBs with multiple pro bowls, all pros and in some cases SBs. I also see the current overall quality depth of all positions from the remaining 2012 finalists and upcoming 1st time players making it even harder for the pre 1990 players from advancing in the future elections. Player are always judged against the others on the ballot and where perhaps a player like Riggins may have gotten elected in the past, given the overall depth of the pool those cases are going to get rarer in the next several years.
As to Mark Bavaro, again similar to the case for Ottis Anderson, as Bavaro (2/2/2SBs) has a few great years, but lack of awards and high career numbers makes his case weak, especially when compared to the other TEs of his era (Sharpe, Coates)
Oh in the case of Bavaro his case will also get buried once the TEs of the late 1990s and 2000s start appearing on the ballot in the next several years. And as I mentioned before, compared to the remaining 2012 finalists and next few years of 1st time players, he does not stand a chance of getting into the final 15, perhaps not even the final 25 for the next several years.
I never saw Bavaro as a Hall of Famer. Really good but not a Hall of Famer.
I never saw Bavaro play during his best years (I’m 26, so I actually only remember him as a Philadelphia Eagle), but judging by his career stats and accomplishments, I don’t think he has a chance. There are very few tight ends in the hall of fame, so he’s unfortunately just another guy in line, although he’s probably close to the front.
BSLO, you are wise beyond your years. :)
Bavaro played with a style that a fan could esily appreciate. He was about blood, sweat and tears but unfortunately not enough catches for most of his career. I will say he had 3 seasons of 50 catch season that were as good as any TE in the game. Don’t quote me but I seem to remember that he was an above average blocker to which benefited Little Joe Morris greatly. Also If memory serves me, it was the injury bug that caused the decline in his career. Guys just didn’t come back the same but at least they came back. :)
I would think a better TE candidate for the HOF would be tough guy TE Russ Francis who was also a blocker/TE. That was on tough hombre.
It’s tough for these guys. One can only hope the players are compared to their own generation. These guys were winners no matter what.
i never saw russ francis as a hall of famer. his only best years was in san francisco and those great 49ers teams, so borderline at best there
chris, I agree with you about Russ Francis. The people I normally see floating his name as a HoF “must elect” look like die-hard ‘Niners fans — they also sometimes mention other weak-to-ludicrous candidates such as Tom Rathman, John Taylor, Dwight Clark, and Randy Cross.
From that era (late 1970s into 1980s) the best TE – and perhaps only – player deserving of HOF consideration is Todd Christensen.
Bachslunch, don’t you remember Francis with New England when they first got good in the late 1970’s. Grogan was throwing him the ball and Sam Bam Cunningham leaping for TD’s. As a Dolphins fan I sure do remember. Basically from than through the mid-80’s the Pats were pain in the butt. We lost a Monday game 17-16 for a playoff shot, we lost the 3-0 snowplow game and another playoff shot and the AFC Championship game to return to the SB in 1985. I should hate the Patriots but they were soooo bad in the 70’s. That slot is reserved for the Jets. :)
They forever have been a pain in the butt. One of the best rivalries and the only team in our division we have a losing record with at 43-48. The number of season splits is amazing.
I believe Big Russ was called “All World”. I’m not saying Francis was the greatest TE ever but he had several years at the top of the AFC as Casper’s career. He had a fine finish with the 49ers. Lots of those players in the Close but no HOF category such as: Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark, John Taylor and Brent Jones.
I thought Francis deserved recognition so I mentioned him. I think he was certianly as good as Bravaro if not better.
Here’s another name for you, 49ers LB Keena Turner. Amazing to me the he only had 1 PB. He seemed so important to their D over their playoff years. Like Miami’s WR Nat Moore who was one of the best Dolphins but not much recognition.
My bad! Correction on recollection for 3-0 loss costing us Playoff shot. Dolphins went to SB in shortened season. 17-16 Monday loss was to Mr. Cocky – Bert Jones of Colts and not New England after the year before we lost in the Bad Call game to the Colts 10-7 in OT which caused 10-4 Dolphins to schockingly miss playoffs for the first time 5 years.
Breaking story: Vilma suing Roger Godell for deflamation of character; says he can’t find work now.
I find it hard to believe that Vilma can’t play the football in Canada if he wants to bad enough. Pot smoking Ricky Williams found a job up there a couple years back. I tend to think he should take his medicine. Sometimes things just don’t break your way. I find it hard to believe that this Commish wouldn’t have his ducks in a row before making such a charge. Why wasn’t he jumping up and down at the first mention of his name? I would be. :)
defamation!! LOL
my proofreader sucks!
opp guess that would be me. :)
at least he smoked pot that ricky williams
how about a guy like tiki barber? good player but not hall of fame material if you ask me
What do Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson have to do to get in? Both have at least another 3 seasons of playing left.
Sounds fair to me. Maybe he’d have a better shot if not for the glut of great RB’s around the same time. Also not sure if brothers have ever made the HOF.
For the first 8 and 9 seasons of their careers, they have been more than solid seasons as a whole. Both need in my estimation no more than 2,500-3,000 receiving yards and 12-18 TD’s each. Any thoughts?
I would say another 3 to 4 seasons each with 90+rec and 1200 yrd will be needed for both along with pro bowl and all pro awards. In this offensive passing era WRs are going to need to post 1000 rec careers. Some postseason successes would help each.
Long past time for Chuck Howley to be enshrined as a senior nominee.
– 5 first team All Pro selections
– 6 Pro Bowls
– SB V MVP (first defensive player to earn that honor, and still the only MVP from the losing team) after intercepting two passes and recovering a fumble
– Also considered for SB VI MVP the next year when Dallas won after accounting for two more turnovers
– Tough, athletic, ageless wonder who flew all over the field making game impacting plays, especially in the clutch
– 25 INTs, 26.5 sacks, and 18 fumble recoveries (for comparison Derrick Brooks, the best 4-3 OLB of the past decade, had13.5 career sacks, 4 fumble recoveries, and 25 INTS, despite playing in a far more pass happy era)
– Greatest LB in Dallas history, a franchise with a defensive legacy second to none
Before I give a reply I’d like to make a small request of Zoneb,litz. :)
Rasputin, you won’t find much disagreement around here.
IMO you can add other Cowboy greats: LeRoy Jordan, Cliff Harris, Drew Pearson, and Harvey “Too Mean” Martin (100+ unducumented sacks, Co-SB MVP, 4-PB and lead led team in sacks 7 yrs that included HOFer Randy White). Some disagree with Martin though.
see to me chuck howley and derrick brooks are vastly similiar in how they played the linebacker position both very instinctive even though they played in different eras in the national football league
There is no doubt that Brooks is a HOFer and has a very strong case for 1st time election (although he would not be the first player to fall short of a predicted 1st time election) and Howley appears on the “official” (was in final 10 players among senior selection committee votes in recent past) and “unofficial” list of top worthy senior candidates for consideration, I suspect he would be selected with the next few years if the election stays at 2 senior nominees per year. Bob Hayes selection as a senior candidate and the large number of Cowboys in recent HOF elections may have “delayed” a pick of Howley as a senior candidate.
Unfortunately the recent relative bump in Cowboys HoFers hasn’t come close to addressing what for decades has been gross under representation given the team’s success and the number of worthy individuals. It’s hard to believe, but deep in the 21st Century there were only 5 Cowboys in the HoF, four no brainer first ballot types (though amazingly even Lilly received votes against) and Mel Renfro, a physical, true shut down DB with world class track speed who went to 10 consecutive Pro Bowls, won multiple Super Bowls, and made All Pro at both safety and cornerback, yet somehow had to wait until his final year of modern eligibility for induction.
The 2004 travesty, where two Cowboys made the final six and were the only two left out (a third had made the top 10), spurred even a frustrated Paul Zimmerman to complain about anti-Dallas bias. Hayes and Wright have been inducted since but the others are from the 1990s dynasty. The Triplets were more or less shoo ins, as Deion was and (hopefully) Larry Allen will be.
The selection committee certainly hasn’t been dissuaded from inducting Steelers at a high rate in recent years, so hopefully they’ll do the right thing and enshrine worthy Landry era players. As Tony said, more are deserving, but I’d be willing to stop pounding on the anti-Cowboys bias theme if these three men are inducted:
1. Chuck Howley
2. Cliff Harris – only 1970s All Decade defensive starter not in the HoF
3. Drew Pearson – only 1970s All Decade offensive starter not in the HoF
That would get things sort of caught up to where they should have been years ago, and reduce the bitterness many Dallas fans feel toward the HoF process.
Although I would tend to agree with your view on the anti-Cowboys bias (especially in the case of Hayes and Renfro) and understand the frustration of Cowboys fans and opinion of Zimmerman (who was more upset at the disregard given to the Seniors selection subcommittee), the truth is that many other fans and teams (for example Raiders) have the same opinions regarding lack of their players in the HOF. I think Howley and Harris (both were on a final 10 list of seniors considered by the seniors selection committee a few years ago that went public) will someday get elected and perhaps so will Pearson, but all their careers have some questions will have detracted from their selections. Losing 3 SBs, including 2 SBs to the Steelers is a good reason why there are more Steelers from the 1970s then Cowboys from that era. The American Team label and other factors have also hurt thoses 1970s Cowboys. The selection committee from the 1980s until recently was made up of an “old boys club” with plenty of evidence of block voting going on for years. A larger, more diverse and younger committee has slowly changed some of the previous poor voting outcomes, that is the reason you are starting to see many other players, especially previously disregarded seniors (also helped more recently by getting two finalist slots) getting reconsidered and elected. Give it time and hopefully these 1970s Cowboys and other deserving players will soon get elected (also since the pre 1970 pool is getting thinner with some noted exemptions).
I hope you’re right, Paul, but for the record third parties reading this should be reminded that those 3 SB losses were all by 4 points or less, with at least two of them dramatically impacted by atrocious officiating (the phantom Colts fumble recovery in SB V at the goal line when Dallas was positioned to score the game sealing TD and where video evidence clearly shows Dallas recovering its own unforced fumble, and the horrific defensive passing interference call in SB XIII after Lynn Swann ran over Benny Barnes from behind, which even Pete Rozelle admitted was a mistake).
That shouldn’t obscure the fact that under Landry Dallas did have a record 20 consecutive winning seasons, multiple Super Bowl wins (blowout victories), 18 playoff seasons, 5 conference championship wins in one decade, 12 conference championship game appearances in 17 years, and 14 division titles. Individual games can have flukey results, but that’s an unmatched level of sustained success. Having a star on one’s helmet shouldn’t hurt anyone’s chances of HoF induction regardless of what else is going on.
And in all fairness the Cowboys already have seven players from the Landry era in the HOF (which is a pretty impressive number for a decade+ period) while the Steelers have nine from the 1970s Noll teams (4 SBs) and the Packers have ten from the 1960s (5 NFL championships/SB). So the Cowboys from the Landry era are pretty well represented and given their championships one can see how they may not match up to the Steelers. And as I mentioned someday soon both Howley and Harris will get elected giving the Landry Cowboys nine HOFers. Of course the Raiders have seven from the 1970s with one SB (total of eleven if you extend from 1970 to 1984 and two more SBs) and their fans want more also!
I think Harris is hurt by a short career, only 29 INTs, below average playoff performances, and perhaps most significant the long standing issue of the HOF voters not selecting Safeties (lowest represented modern era position).
Howley played during one the top era for LBs in NFL and AFL histories and so over the years as LBs with more all pro/pro team and higher profiles were elected he became forgotten in some regards.
Pearson also had a relatively short career (only ten years) resulting in some pretty low career numbers in catches and TDs especially compared to other WRs from the 1970s, an era dominated by the run game and not passing. His average SB numbers also hurt his chances and like Howley he was simply bypassed as the 1970s WRs were selected into the contentious elections of Swann and Stallworth, both of whom took years to be elected and resulted in no other WR from their era, such as Pearson to be considered.
Again I would support all three of these Cowboys but can understand these issues that have impacted their ability to get elected to the HOF any why some voters, especially in the 1980s and 1990s elections may have ignored them.
Except those 7 Landry era players stretch over more than two decades, not just one, and recent Steelers inductions haven’t been limited to the 1970s. I only mention that because earlier a supposed recent glut of Cowboys inductions was mentioned as a possible reason for keeping various Landry era Cowboys out.
I agree that SBs are very important but they aren’t the only thing to consider. Dallas won more games than Pittsburgh even in the 1970s and played at an elite level for a much longer period of time. I’m not saying that means they should have more guys from that era in Canton than Pittsburgh does, but I am annoyed by the argument that the Steelers should automatically have more than than entire Landry era because of two 4 point games (one very controversial). The extra success Dallas had should counter balance those two games and make it a wash on the team front, especially since the Cowboys won Super Bowls too. Individually worthy Cowboys shouldn’t be frozen out because certain voters feel there are somehow too many already in. More Landry era Cowboys may get in, but more from the Steelers, Raiders, Dolphins, Vikings, and other teams likely will too.
As for Harris, interceptions are a poor way to judge him (I’m afraid that may be hurting the very Canton worthy Darren Woodson too). He was good in coverage but was most famous for being a brutally hard hitter who revolutionized the position of free safety. HoFer Larry Wilson described him as the best safety in the game. Clearly many contemporaries agreed, since they voted him first team All Decade. On balance his playoff performances were strong, and 6 Pro Bowls/3 first team All Pros are stronger accolades than many of the recent senior inductees can boast.
Pearson was considered to be the one of if not the greatest playoff WR in history by the early 1980s. His career stats are better than Swann’s and he was an amazing clutch playmaker, serving a crucial role in historic games like the original Hail Mary and most of Staubach’s famous comebacks. He posted two 1,000+ yard seasons in the 1970s, which was no small feat back then since he led the NFL in receiving yards with “only” 870 in a third year. One if his three first team All Pro selections came in a fourth year, so Pearson sustained an elite level of play over time. Neither Swann or Stallworth ever led the NFL in receiving yards and each only had one first team All Pro selection. Swann never had a 1,000 yard season and Stallworth didn’t have his first one until 1979, posting his other two in the more pass friendly 1980s. Pearson’s career was cut short by a car wreck but he did retire with 2,360 more yards than Swann, and I think his total yardage was in the top 20 at the time.
Of course I recognize that comparing him with someone who’s induction was controversial isn’t ideal, and there are guys like Cliff Branch (whom I also think is HoF worthy) still out there with stats that look better at first glance (though Pearson had more receptions/game and yards/game than Branch in the 1970s; Branch had more TDs), but Pearson’s claim to Canton rests less on stats and more on the historically important nature of the plays he made along with the greatness he exhibited according to the eyeball test, which is probably why his contemporaries voted him first team All Decade. I’m just pointing out that he also has solid stats.
Since I think it’s been established that an anti-Cowboys bias has existed over the years in HoF voting, that those two first team 1970s All Decade omissions from Canton both happen to be Cowboys will hopefully become more glaring over time. Chuck Howley’s induction should have priority though. I’m hoping that Hanburger’s recent entry means they’re finally ready to start addressing a backlog of worthy LBs.
I also don’t put pre 1966 championships on par with SB wins, but, regardless, just looking at the SB era the Cowboys have one of the lowest HoFer to Championship ratios in the NFL. I’d like to see that corrected over the next several years.
Rasputin, good to see you over in this forum — this is to my thinking one of the most informed places to talk about the PFHoF.
Yes, agreed fully that Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson belong in the HoF. Both Howley and Harris have elite-level postseason honors relative to their position, and safeties as well as OLBs from the 50s/60s/70s are poorly represented in the HoF. Both positions need to be seriously addressed. Same’s true of WRs, and I’m all for Pearson, Harold Carmichael, Harold Jackson, and Cliff Branch getting voted in, as they have comparable stats and are the best not in from the time. All are better choices than Lynn Swann and John Stallworth, if you ask me — Swann’s a major mistake and Stallworth is borderline at best. These three are the worst Cowboy HoF snubs and should receive highest priority. And I also think it’s wisest to best the drum for a limited number of the best candidates than cast the net too widely.
I’m less sold on other Cowboys, myself, as of now. Assuming we don’t consider Billy Howton to be primarily a Cowboy (though he did play his last couple years in Dallas — and he belongs in, no question), other options include Lee Roy Jordan, John Niland, Ralph Neely, Too Tall Jones, Don Perkins, and Harvey Martin. I see Jordan as one of the two best MLBs from the time not in along with Tommy Nobis, but MLB is also a very heavily represented position from this era, and I’d really like to see the OLB issue addressed first (Howley, Baughan, Fortunato, Grantham, Brazile). Niland’s 3(2)/6/none is indeed pretty good for a guard, but that’s also pretty close to Bob Kuechenberg’s honors numbers at 2(1AP)/6/none, and he seems like the guy “at the other end of the border.” Neely’s 3(3AP)/2/60s is lower than Niland’s honors, so I’d put him next in line. Perkins looks to be about comparable to guys like Ken Willard, which is just shy of what’s needed, though he’s better than folks remember. Martin’s 1(1AP)/4/70s and Jones’s 2(1AP)/3/none are relativey thin postseason honors numbers, and it’s challenging to make a case for them before DLs more or less of the time not in such as Claude Humphrey at 5(2AP)/6/none, L.C. Greenwood at 2(2AP)/6/70s, Mark Gastineau at 4(3AP)/5/none, Fred Smerlas at 3(1AP)/5/none, and perhaps even Curley Culp at 1(1AP)/6/none.
Again you do not have to make the case to me for Howley, Harris and Pearson as I was just pointing out that there are valid reasons they have not already been elected (as I pointed out) that some HOF voters have made. The recent Steelers inductions include players from the 1950 and 1980s/1990s because they had HOF players during those decades when the Cowboys did not (until the Johnson era SB teams which will end up with 5 HOFers). So I was simply comparing the three Cowboys from the 1970s to other SB teams and HOFers from that decade and the difference between the seven COwboys and nine Steelers is really not that big and if we agree that Howley, Harris and perhaps someday Pearson are elected then that gap closes, unless you are suggesting that there are yet other Cowboys from the 1980s (well 1980-1985 seasons) besides White and Dorsett that deserve to be in the HOF to close out that 20 year Landry era?
We have no choice to give teams like the Packers credit for the pre SB NFL championships since that was the ultimate season prize and yes the 3 NFL Championships of the Packers from the early 1960s are valuable in assessing players from those teams who made the HOF.
As members of the deep seniors pool it is hard, and only getting harder for any player to get elected as most quality lists I have seen of senior candidates ranges from 20-30 deserving players with more added each year, so the current rate it would take 10-15 successful elections of two candidates per year just to clear out the current backlog.
I take the fact that both Harris and Howley have been in the final 10 considered by the seniors committee in recent years as a good sign for their eventual election. But as you mentioned that pool also includes comparable players from the same position/era for Howley (Hanburger now elected but 1960s/70s LBs D Robinson, Curtis, Baughan, Nobis still on that list), Harris (Hayes, J Robinson) and Pearson (Branch). I am not saying all those players are better then the Cowboys, but strong cases can be made for some of them including Branch and J Robinson and multiple players are the same position/era can muddle the voting when it only takes 5 out 9 committee votes to select a senior candidate. Pearson has no chance of being elected until Branch is first given that Branch has already been a finalist as a senior candidate, and Pearson has not. So unitil Branch can rise up from the 20-30 pool, into the final 10, and then get selected one year as one of the two senior nominees Pearson is going to be waiting, perhaps many years unfortunately and you are right his low career numbers and issues over the elections of Swann and Stallworth that took many years hurts his case as well.
And did you know that the 2012 finalist list for the senior candidate positions included six LBs from the 1960s/1970s, hard for Howley to separate from that group and get nominated.
all very good points but cliff branch was a better overall receiver than drew pearson was during that 70s and 80s period
Roll a video of the top 15 most significant playoff game winning catches in 1970/early 1980s and how many will Branch have? I can tell you Pearson will have 3 (1973 vs Rams, 1975 vs Vikings and 1980 vs Falcons).
Their career numbers are pretty close (Pearson played 10 years, Branch 14 years):
Pearson 489rec 7822 yrds 48 TDs, 3/3/1SB, team of 1970s
Branch 501rec 8685 yrds 67 TDs, 4/4/3SBs
I would say it is a pretty close call as to which was the better player during 1970s/early 1980s.
Sorry if I’m inappropriately derailing this thread but I’m about done with my rant and this has been burning me up for a long time, so I’ll indulge myself lest people think I’m just blowing smoke like most fans are when they complain about Canton screwing their teams. The Cowboys really are underrepresented.
Hall of Famers per Super Bowl win, counting significant Hall of Famers as attributed to teams by the HoF website in the Super Bowl era from 1966-1999 (a good cut off point given eligibility waits)……
Team – Ratio (SB wins pre 2000, SB era HoFers)
Colts – 9 (1, 9), though in fairness several guys only barely played into the SB era
Bears – 8 (1, 8), though only 6 played extensively in the SB era
Rams – 7 (1, 7), and the SB win was in 1999, so we’re still waiting on Warner’s induction
Chiefs – 7 (1, 7)
Jets – 4 (1, 4)
Dolphins – 4 (2, 8)
Packers – 3.67 (3, 11), and Favre isn’t eligible yet
Raiders – 3.67 (3, 11)
Redskins – 3.33 (3, 10)
Steelers – 2.75 (4, 11), 17 overall despite never winning a pre SB NFL championship and only making the playoffs once before 1972(!). That’s a total of 4.25 HoFers per pre 2000 NFL title.
Cowboys – 2.2 (5, 11)
Only three teams rank lower than Dallas: the Broncos (2), 49ers (1.4), and Giants (1.5). The two Broncos wins came at the very end of the period and those guys haven’t been eligible for very long. The 49ers dynasty had an offense heavy team with a revolutionary new system that caught the NFL off guard. San Francisco has 12 HoFers overall though, despite only joining the NFL in the 1950s (just a decade before Dallas), only making the playoffs once before 1970(!), and never winning any type of league championship until the 1980s. The Giants have many pre 1966 HoFers, which combine for 15 overall (not counting Steve Owen), and were awful in the 1960s, atrocious in the 1970s (no playoff seasons!), and had more non-winning (0.500 or worse) than winning seasons even in the 1990s. In total the Giants have 2.5 Hall of Famers per pre 2000 league title.
Among teams with zero pre 2000 SBs, the Vikings (who started a year after Dallas) have 9(!) Hall of Famers, the Oilers/Titans have 7, the Chargers, Bills, and Browns each have 6, and the Patriots, Lions, and Cardinals(!) each have 4. The others, unsurprisingly, have fewer.
Ultimately the Hall of Fame is an individual award so it shouldn’t necessarily correspond precisely with team championships (especially since I’m not tying specific players to specific titles, but am just using championships as a rough metric for overall team success level), and, glancing at those numbers, one might just conclude that SBs don’t impact the distribution of HoFer per team much (why those with the most titles tend to be lower on the list), but I think it should have SOME impact and that it usually does. At the very least I totally reject any argument that claims Dallas is well represented in Canton given its success over the years. The numbers say otherwise. Remember they’re a combined 11 points away from having 8 SB wins (well to force overtime, 14 points for the wins I guess). If you consider all the elite non-SB seasons they’ve had (winning seasons, playoff seasons, playoff wins, division titles, etc.), the Cowboys are even more underrepresented.
Inducting those three Landry era players I listed would go a long way toward righting that wrong. Remember, these guys’ careers at Dallas spanned from 1961 – 1983, so we aren’t just talking about the SB run in the 1970s. Dallas was a much better team than…say…Pittsburgh in the 1960s and 1980s. Since they’re only eligible through the narrow senior selection process now, I’m going to keep throwing their names out there until they’re in.
bachslunch, it’s good to see you too. I noticed your name when I first found this page and was hoping you were still following the thread. I mostly agree with you about the other Cowboys and for that matter Nobis. Lee Roy Jordan was awesome. Despite being significantly smaller, the guy was frequently compared to Butkus in his day in terms of flying sideline to sideline and hitting, and I think he still ranks around 3rd in career INTs among LBs. Tough as hell and great skills. Unfortunately there’s not much point to pushing him, Perkins, Niland, etc. for Canton until the higher priority guys are in, so it’s better to narrow the focus, as you say.
Paul, where can people see the list of seniors considered? Are those names publicly released? As for other Cowboys in the 1980s, I think Everson Walls should be a serious candidate. He “only” had 4 Pro Bowls and 1 first team All Pro selection, but he led the NFL in INTs 3 years, including with 11 his rookie season, and did win a SB (albeit with the Giants). I’d also put Herschel Walker in since it’s the Pro Football HoF and not the NFL HoF. He’s the all time pro football all purpose yardage leader and I think such a guy has to be in Canton, especially if he proved he could excel in the NFL. Walker’s 18,168 AP yards (NFL only) ranked #2 all time behind only Walter Payton when he retired, and still rank 8th, sandwiched between Barry Sanders and Marcus Allen. Everyone else in the top 11 is in the HoF except LaDainian Tomlinson (who will be), Tim Brown (who probably will be), and Brian Mitchell, who was great but more of a pure returner rather than a versatile offensive weapon. In just three years from 1986-1988 Walker amassed 5,199 offensive yards from scrimmage, leading the league in 1987 despite sharing time with Dorsett and posting 2,019 yards from scrimmage in 1988. He has 84 NFL TDs and is the only player to ever have over 4,000 yards three different ways: rushing, receiving, and returning. If you only considered his NFL numbers I could maybe see excluding him, but I think his tremendous NFL accomplishments give credibility to the years he dominated the USFL. Does anyone doubt that if Walker had spent those seasons in the NFL that he’d rank among the NFL’s elite in career rushing yardage? He’s a unique case, but I’d induct him.
I am not so sure a ratio of team SBs/HOF players is a very indicative measure as there is no reason why great players (such as those from the KC Chiefs) should be dismissed nor those teams somehow critically highlighted because they did not win a SB nor do I think that players from SB teams deserve any special HOF consideration unless they also have the individual career or playoff impacts or numbers to warrant election.
BTW within a few years the Cowboys will already jump to 5/13 (2.6) when Haley and Allen are elected, and as we already discussed Howley and Harris likely future elections will get them to 5/15 (3.0). I think the problems the Cowboys face is that even with the team success from 1965 to 1985 (the 20 year Landry era non-losing seasons) with the noted exceptions of the current HOFers and deserving HOFers we have already discussed (Howley, Harris, and Pearson) there simply are no other players hence your ratio number for the Cowboys from the pre 2000 SB era is never going to get above 3.0.
The Cowboys of the late 1960s and 1980s do not have any other deserving HOFers and those teams did not achieve great playoff successes (no championship wins) and in many respects the 20 year streak was a credit to the drafting of quality, but not always HOF, players and the advanced innovations both on offense and defense by Landry. There were average players at so many of the key glamor and stat producing positions on those teams such as QB (Meredith and White), no other career HOF RB over that 20 year period except Dorsett, only Hayes and Pearson at WR, few OL, no other LBs besides Howley and perhaps Jordan, only Walls comes close at CB, and only Harris at S. DL had perhaps the greatest strength with Lilly then White and some great seasons by Martin and Jones. For such a long period of winning seasons and playoffs the quality and quantity of HOF players simply is not there. I would debate that those teams over that 20 period as a whole was more a function of the system and less of many HOFers on those teams, similar in some respects to the 49ers of the 1980s/90s who will also be underrepresented in the HOF based on players to SB wins.
The list of senior candidates considered each year is not publicly released although on a few occasions the names come out from committee members or others and posted online.
As much as I was fan of Walker his NFL career was simply very good and not of HOF quality, especially since the HOF voters have never given any credit to total yards gained and all purpose yards. Walker is only 36th in career rushing with only 2 Pro Bowls and two 1000 yard seasons (including a 1514 yard best) – not HOF standard. Although a number of great players, including several eventual HOFs, did come out of the USFL, there is plenty of debate that the overall quality of play in the USFL simply did not match up to the NFL comparing league to league overall depth, apparently HOF voters feel the same was as no player from the USFL (or CFL for that matter) has been elected due to their non-NFL stats.
I don’t disagree with your first paragraph except insofar as people frequently cite Super Bowl wins as a justification for the Steelers having more HoFers from the 1970s alone than the Cowboys do from the entire 29 year Landry era. You could argue that more Steelers happen to be individually worthy (though I’d disagree), but to the extent one goes by SBs or any other measure of overall team success the Cowboys are clearly underrepresented in Canton.
Like I said, I’d be happy (or at least no longer bitter) if those three players (Howley, Harris, and Pearson) are inducted, but they haven’t been yet and I won’t make any assumptions until they are. I also wouldn’t say they’re the only HoF quality players Dallas has outstanding. Landry was a genius but the system also ran on plenty of great players. Gil Brandt was maybe the most brilliant talent evaluator in NFL history and that innovation you mentioned extended to scouting, where Dallas, among things, was the first team to use computers to help uncover overlooked diamonds. Aside from previously discussed players like Lee Roy Jordan, John Niland, Ralph Neely (1960s All Decade), Don Perkins, Too Tall, and Harvey Martin, there are guys who are at least worth a mention like Cornell Green (5 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All Pros, elite play at both S and CB and a SB win), George Andrie (5 Pro Bowls, 1 first team All Pro, SB win), and others who are as qualified as the borderline, Fred Dean/Lynn Swann/Bob St. Clair/Jack Butler types who often seem to make it from other teams (RB Calvin Hill, for example, had 4 Pro Bowls in an abbreviated career and made first team All Pro as a rookie, an extremely rare and impressive feat).
Meredith and Danny White were hardly “average.” As with Staubach and Aikman, their volume stats were somewhat depressed compared to other elite QBs because Dallas ran a balanced attack. White’s career was diminished and cut short due to a wrist injury, but he held many single season franchise passing records until Romo came along. Meredith would be a strong candidate for the Hall of Fame if he had won at least one Super Bowl and maybe played a couple more years. After showing tremendous skill and physical courage in leading a weak expansion team to the NFL’s elite, he retired in his prime (age 31) after his third consecutive Pro Bowl selection due to a combination of disappointment, unfair fan/media criticism, and ailments from the physical pounding he had sustained earlier in his career before he had an offensive line.
The Cowboys did make it to three NFC Championship games in the 1980s though, so I’m not sure it’s fair to limit the phrase “great playoff success” to only winning Super Bowls, obliterating any middle ground between one and done and winning it all. White’s heroics included the famous “point toward the end zone” comeback win against the Falcons in the 1980 Divisional round. Dallas certainly had a lot more success than the Steelers did in every 20th Century decade but the 1970s (where it’s basically split), and more than the 49ers in every decade but the 1980s.
The 49er dynasty was offense heavy. San Francisco didn’t posses the consistently great defenses that the Cowboys, 1970s Steelers, or 1960s Packers did to complement their great offenses, so, if one goes by unit success it would be natural for those teams to have more HoFers. 49er SB teams may be lightly represented so far, but, as I pointed out, they haven’t been shy about inducting 49ers overall. Despite being pitiful for decades, only having an equal number of SB wins as Dallas, significantly fewer conference championships, fewer playoff seasons, fewer playoff wins, etc., they have more players in Canton than Dallas, and it’s not like their inductees are all obvious shoo in world beaters.
As for the 1990s Cowboys, Allen deserves first ballot status but Dallas fans have learned to take nothing for granted when it comes to HoF selection. Allen would raise the Dallas ratio to 2.4 per SB win, still around the bottom of the barrel. Of course Larry was only there for the 1995 title season. It would be a shame if the 1992-1993 SB teams, the 1992 team especially being in the argument for greatest of all time, only end up with 3 HoFers. I don’t know if Haley (who was also a 49er) will make it or not. Darren Woodson was a better player though, and more critical to the Cowboys defense over the decade. He had 5 Pro Bowls and 3 first team All Pros, but deserved even more. There were multiple years where he was the best safety in the NFL but passed over for Pro Bowls by inferior players. Woodson was a very smart converted college LB who hit brutally hard and ran a 4.3 something 40. He was able to shut down elite TEs and slot receivers in one on one coverage, and was a precursor to guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu. I think Woodson was clearly the best safety of the decade. His INTs look low at first glance but this is one of those situations where opponents didn’t throw his way too often. Dallas is still trying to recover from his retirement.
Other guys to consider include All Decade C Mark Stepnoski (5 Pro Bowls), TE Jay Novacek (5 Pro Bowls, 1 first team All Pro; he’s hurt due to being misused for a few years on an atrocious Cardinals team but was a collegiate conference track champion with the best hands on a team that included Michael Irvin, had more receptions than any other TE over the first six years of the 1990s, and was close to the top in yards and TDs), Erik Williams (4 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros; until his car wreck was the greatest RT I’ve ever seen and one of a very short list of guys who shut down Reggie White), and Nate Newton (6 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros).
I’m not saying all these guys have to make Canton or the whole process is illegitimate, but if voters drop their inclination to resist putting Cowboys in there are plenty of worthy candidates available.
To clarify, since football is a team sport I do think team success should have SOME impact in HoF consideration, but it’s only one of many factors and I agree that a truly worthy individual from a weak team shouldn’t be excluded.
However, I’ll note that it’d be strange if a team that’s never won any championships was loaded with too many truly worthy HoFers. In general the more successful teams tend to have more HoFers.
Sorry, I must admit to being lost on the ratio thinking. :) For myself I’m concerned with the late 1960’s players to about 1985 who are under appreciated by the voters (unless you are a Steeler). They got their do first and I suppose we can live with along as all these other great players aren’t left behind.
I wouldn’t narrow down by Super Bowl wins but rather consider the teams that went to the most playoffs or won the most games over that time. All of those teams that won so often had HOF calibur players. Not just the Steelers. I beat the best Steeler team and best Cowboy team could play 10 times and they would split or at worst it would be 4-6. And I’d love to see Miami best team which was the year after the “Perfect Season”.
Looking at it that way I’d think HOF representation would go along these lines but not hold to: 1 is Landry’s Cowboys 2A are the Raiders “Commitment to Excellence” and 2B are the Steelers with 4 SB Rings. 3 are my Dolphins (Don Shula is King of winning) . 4 are Bud Grant’s Vikings who were a rock of consistency (losing SB’s too) and 5A Hail to the Redskins!!! and 5B was ” Ground Chuck” with the Rams, Bills and Seahawks. If he could of ever had a QB but his Defense deserve several HOFers. Along with the Coach.
I’ll give you my missing players later. :)
I should add that Meredith won the Bert Bell NFL MVP award in 1966. His career fell short of Canton worthy, but he was a hell of a lot better than “average”. Indeed even the “Hall of the Very Good” saying has always annoyed me because “great” is a larger set than “HoF.” There are many great (not good) players who will never be in the HoF.
Tony, I agree. I used SBs as a quick and dirty metric because it’s faster and because, as I said, I often hear people cite them as excuses for enshrining so many Steelers, so I shot that argument down on its own terms. If one added the other stuff you mention though, like games won and playoffs, developing an appropriate weight for each variable, one could develop a more meaningful analysis.
It does not really matter if we refer to Meredith as average, better then average or hall of very good, my point was that he is not a HOFer, in fact for 1/2 of the Landry 20 year winning seasons the Cowboys were led by QBs who are not HOF worthy and those teams also did not have (by any measure) many deserving HOF quality players at many other key positions (RB, WR, TE, OL, CB, LB).
Also I do not agree that outstanding individual players with great overall careers (wins, numbers, multiple awards) from teams that have great team seasons, playoffs but fail to win SB or championships are not as deserving of selection to the HOF (Chiefs and Vikings of the 1970s; Bills, Oilers, Vikings of the 1990s).
As to the Steelers of the 1970s, and Packers of the 1960s, their 4 and 5 championships are a consideration, but not alone as those individual HOF players also put together quantity and quality of seasons, career numbers, playoff performances, pro bowl, and all pros – with some noted controversial exceptions like mostly notably Swann and Stallworth.
Paul, I think the Vikings of the 1960s/1970s had some of the greatest teams to never win a SB, but you acknowledge that team success is a legitimate factor to consider, and neither they or the Chiefs had anywhere near the team success of Dallas over the decades. Until a few years ago Minnesota and KC had as many players in Canton as the Cowboys did, while other teams that had also accomplished less had many more. The Raiders had twice as many. There was something unseemly about that. It’s not that the players from those teams weren’t Canton worthy, but rather the disparity underscored how few of the many deserving Cowboys had been inducted. The Cowboys have the most fans but they also have the most haters, and the anti-Cowboys bias has been anecdotally documented among HoF panelists and in the media over the years.
Fortunately recently the anti-Dallas bloc seems to have shrunk and/or softened, and more Cowboys have been inducted. Hopefully that continues. You’ve already agreed that Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson are Canton worthy. Inducting those three would raise the Landry era HoFers to 10, which is respectable if not overwhelming for those 20 consecutive winning (not just “non-losing”) seasons, with several strong borderline candidates still outstanding. At that point I’d consider the legacy of anti-Cowboys bias buried and would be willing to start from a fresh slate.
As an aside, briefly getting back to Herschel Walker, I wasn’t claiming that his USFL stats should directly translate to the NFL, or that the NFL selection committee agrees with me (it obviously doesn’t). I just don’t think they should be totally ignored. Walker’s 1,514 rushing yard (an elite number) 1988 season was his first as the feature back in the NFL, and probably represented what his norm would have been if he hadn’t spent the past two years splitting time with Dorsett and the prime three years prior to that in the USFL (two of which he won that league’s rushing title). It was also his sixth year as a pro, after which sometimes RBs start to decline a little (it varies by individual). Plus being suddenly traded can derail a player’s career. Minnesota misused him and by the time he had his second 1000+ yard rushing season (at Philadelphia) he was in his 30s. In the USFL Walker had 5,562 rushing yards. If he had played those first three years in the NFL instead he wouldn’t have had the 13,787 combined pro career rushing yards he ended up with, but he almost certainly would have finished with over 10k rushing yards, probably would have had over 11k rushing yards, and easily could have had over 12k.
Obviously if you totally discount the USFL stats and only focus on his NFL rushing stats he’s not Canton worthy, but Walker is such a unique player that I think it’s a mistake to apply the standard template to him. I don’t see how people can ignore his receiving accomplishments. Even losing those three prime years he had 13,084 NFL yards from scrimmage (not counting return yardage), and more receptions (512) than guys like Cliff Branch and Ben Coates. As you imply, return yardage is traditionally ignored by Canton voters, though I don’t think it should be and usually those guys in question are primary or pure returners. When you combine Walker’s amazing versatility and all around statistical accomplishment, including having the feather in his cap of all time pro football yardage leader, it’s enough for me at least to discard the standard templates and vote “yes”.
I obviously meant HoF selection committee, not NFL selection committee.
The case for Don Perkins:
6 Pro Bowls; 1 first team All Pro; NFL Rookie of the Year; in an eight year career rushed for more yards than anyone else in the 1960s but Jim Brown and Jim Taylor; retired as the 5th all time rusher in NFL history despite beginning on a talent depleted expansion team.
Perkins is easily the greatest 1960s RB not already in the HoF. Someone earlier compared him to Ken Willard (4 Pro Bowls, 0 first team All Pros), but Willard rushed for 46.3 yards/game over 10 years while Perkins rushed for 58.1 y/g over eight and finished with slightly more career rushing yards than Willard.
Pittsburgh Steeler RB John Henry Johnson (4 Pro Bowls, 0 first team All Pros) is in the HoF, but despite playing 13 years (1954-1966), he only has 586 more career rushing yards, averaging 47.6 y/g to Perkins’ 58.1 y/g, and fewer TDs/game, receptions/game, and receiving yards/game than Perkins.
Packer RB Paul Hornung (2 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros) is in the HoF but in a 10 year career only has a 3,711 career rushing yards (2,506 fewer than Perkins) and 5,191 combined yards from scrimmage (2,336 fewer than Perkins).
I haven’t given Don Perkins that much consideration for the Hall of Fame. I would put Chuck Foreman at the top of the list in terms of Senior-Era running backs who aren’t in.
So would Chuck! LOL
Raputin, forgot to mention Cornell Green — he’s probably never going to get a sniff, but his postseason honors are solid for the era at the position at 4(3AP)/5/none. I wouldn’t gripe at all if he ever got elected.
One thing that at the very least squares up Ken Willard and Don Perkins for me is that Willard looks to have been a notably more productive receiver than Perkins. And using John Henry Johnson and Paul Hornung as HoF comparison points can be a problem, as Johnson could be seen as marginal and Hornung a flat-out mistake. Perkins is one of the better RBs of the time not in the HoF of course, and if the HoF weren’t already hip-deep in RBs from the 50s/60s/70s, I could see pushing for him and Willard and Chuck Foreman and Larry Brown harder. Problem is there are all the bad OLB, safety, and WR snubs still unaddressed, for starters.
I’ve always thought of Herschel Walker as having a better HoF case than many think, especially if one uses total all-purpose yards in the NFL as a measuring stick. Given the weak quality of the USFL, I can see why the HoF takes numbers put up in that league with a big grain of salt.
chuck foreman was an average running back at best, borderline canidate for me there
I think most people, including HOF voters, look at Herschel Walker and see 2 Pro Bowls and two 1000 seasons with 8225 career yards and 61 TDs and say that is not a HOFer. And frankly I can see where they are coming from as careers need be be based on top numbers (seasons, total career, playoffs, awards, teams) and on those counts he falls short of the HOF, especially when compared to other RBs from the 1980s/90s. Again no one values total yards or total all purpose yards.
When it comes to players like Perkins and Walker I see debating their cases for the HOF only diminishes the cases of the more deserving cases of those modern and senior candidates who should be elected. The focus should not be on those who are marginal and never discussed as potential HOFers, but players who have come close and need to be considered. Included within that assessment are debating Cowboys players Perkins and Walker when the focus should be on Howley, Harris, and Pearson.
The peak of the anti-Cowboys bias passed the HOF voting when Hayes and Wright were elected followed by the triplets in recent years and the soon elections of Haley and Allen. Unfortunately in the 1970s and then 1980s voting the bias clearly impacted players like Renfro and Hayes and also Howley, Harris and Pearson. But by every indication Howley and Harris are on the right track in the seniors pool and should be elected in the coming years.
herschel walker is not a hall of famer either
Roger Craig falls short of Canton worthy, though not by a lot. Walker’s NFL numbers from scrimmage are actually very similar to Craig’s, except Walker has more TDs and more rushing yards/attempt. Walker also adds 5,084 kick return yards and three years totally dominating the USFL that Craig lacks.
I only mention that since Chris pushed Craig for the HoF earlier in the thread while dismissing Walker out of hand without an argument. I agree with Paul that the focus within a Cowboys context should be on Howley, Harris, and Pearson.
At least in the senior era. Among modern era candidates Darren Woodson deserves a lot more push than he’s been getting, as does Everson Walls. Walls holds the NFL record for number of seasons leading the league in INTs (3), since tied by only Ed Reed.
Darren Woodson was absolute money as a tackler would put a lick on a guy although not spectacular as John Lynch. His value to the Cowboys greatness shouldn’t be undervalued. I certianly think he played at a high caliber for his entire career. It just depends how much respect the Cowboys of the 1990’s will get. So far not too much on D with only Deon.
I guess soon, Charles Haley and possibly Woodson someday and I’d like Ken Norton as well. Those were three hardnosed players who were key.
Actually it was hard to find a weakness on that team. Going right down the list Brock Marion, Darrin Smith, Leon Lett, Russell Maryland, Tony Tolbert, Billy Bates and the best player ever not to go to a PB, Jim Jeffcoat with over 100 sacks!! Seemed like the guy was always picking up the ball and lumbering down the fieldfor a TD LOL!
Chuck Foreman was not averge. :) Pick that up later.
I agree that Darren Woodson has a really good HoF argument and belongs in. Of course, so do other safeties from the 80s/90s not in such as Kenny Easley, Joey Browner, Deron Cherry, Donnie Shell, Steve Atwater, and Leroy Butler. No surprise there, given that the HoF voters don’t seem to like this position much. I’ll be surprised if any of them get elected, but I won’t complain if any manage to sneak through the door, either. Some truly brutal competition there.
Not so sold on Ken Norton for the HoF, whose profile of 1(1AP)/3/none is pretty thin for a LB of the time. Hall of the Very Good, sure.
And I’ll agree with Rasputin that it makes no sense to push for Roger Craig and ignore Herschel Walker. The two players were pretty much contemporaries and ended up with similar raw counting stats:
Craig — 165 games, 8189 rushing yards at 4.1 ypr avg and 56 rushing TDs, 566 catches for 4911 receiving yards at 8.7 ypc avg and 17 receiving TDs. 1983-1993. 1(1AP)/4/none.
Walker — 187 games, 8225 rushing yards at 4.2 ypr avg and 61 rushing TDs, 512 catches for 4859 receiving yards at 9.5 ypc avg and 21 receiving TDs. 1986-1997. 0(0AP)/2/none.
Then figure that Walker has a strong KR resume and Craig did very little of this. At best, it looks like a wash comparing the two: similar raw stats, edge to Craig for postseason honors, edge to Walker for kick returning.
One other important difference between Craig and Walker, although it may not be enough to get him in the HOF, was that Craig was the first player to have 1000 yard rushing and 1000 yards receiving in the same season (Faulk also did same later).
how about ken riley cornerback for the bengals?
Am not at all a fan of Ken Riley for the HoF. His argument rests solely on having a lot of lifetime INTs — his postseason honors are amazingly meager at 1(1AP)/0/none.
In fact, I think his DB teammate Lemar Parrish has a much better HoF argument, with an honors profile of 3(1AP)/8/none, plus a strong kick returning resume. Riley did very little kick returning.
riley was a better conerback of the two though
chris, you said: “riley was a better conerback of the two though.”
Could you explain why that’s the case? Thanks.
basically ken riley was a better cornerback than parrish was during that 70ss era at least in my eyes
chris, could you provide some good specifics as to how Riley was better, besides citing number of lifetime INTs?
In particular, if Riley were indeed the better cornerback, why did Parrish get all the postseason honors recognition while Riley got practically none? Parrish’s three 1st team all pro selections and eight pro bowls dwarf what Riley received (only one 1st team all pro selection and not a single pro bowl nod). How did the contemporary observers get this so spectacularly wrong?
because they are obviously not observing anything that is correct which is ken riley was the better cornerback based on his stats compared to parrishs stats, besides postseason honors dont mean nothing to your career achievements, sure there exciting but its not important in my eyes, so thats why those so called observers think that parrish is better than riley.
chris, why are the contemporary observers in this case not correct? What did they miss, besides lifetime INTs? There’s much more to being a great DB than picking off passes, isn’t there? And why are postseason honors meaningless?
Most importantly, why do lots of lifetime INTs necessarily matter to the exclusion of everything else when evaluating a cornerback? Can we agree that the best cornerbacks prevent receptions? If so, there are several ways one can do this other than get an interception. If you’re a great cover corner and nobody throws in your direction, you’ve done your job, haven’t you? But there are no stats that count this from the time Riley played, are there? If you have bad hands but constantly break up receptions by batting balls away, you’ve also been successful, haven’t you? But there are no stats that count this from the time period Riley played, are there? And just because you got a lot of INTs, that doesn’t necessarily mean you were a great cornerback. It can also mean you got thrown on a lot, that QBs preferred to take their chances with you and not the corner playing opposite you — which says a lot about your abilities, and not good things. Or that you’re a gambling type corner who goes for the pick all the time — if you’re successful, you get the INT, but if you miss, you get skid marks on your butt giving up a long gainer or a TD. You can hurt your team this way as well.
Note well that Parrish and Riley were teammates for several years. And during that time, Riley got approximately twice as many INTs as Parrish, yet Parrish went to several pro bowls and got a 1st team all pro selection, while Riley received absolutely no postseason honors. Zero. (In fact, in some years, both Parrish and safety Tommy Casanova got these honors, while Riley got nothing. Still zippo.) To me, the evidence strongly suggests that QBs chose to throw on Riley, not Parrish, given the choice. And if so, why?
Plus, Riley was a top notch kick returner, while Riley did little of this. Big advantage to Parrish here.
If you’re going to argue that both Parrish and Riley should be in the HoF, that’s a somewhat different story. But given all this, if only one player can get in, why Riley and not Parrish?
Sorry, meant to say “Plus, Parrish was a top notch kick returner, while Riley did little of this. Big advantage to Parrish here.”
Both Lemar Parrish and Ken Riley finished their careers before i was born, so i can’t provide any first-hand knowledge of their skill level. It is worth noting though that while Lemar Parrish made 8 Pro Bowls, and Ken Riley made none (something that by looking at stats alone is a bafflingly unusual gap), Riley actually was honoured by the Associated Press more often than Parrish.
Riley was named to the Associated Press’ 2nd-Team All-Pro team in 1975 and 1976, along with his 1st-Team nod in 1983, the final year of his career. Meanwhile, Parrish, despite making the Pro Bowl in 1970-1971, 1974-1977 and 1979-1980, was only named a 2nd-Team All-Pro in 1979 and a 1st-Team All-Pro in 1980. Though in Parrish defense, he garnered tons of honours from lesser publications (UPI, NEA, Pro Football Writers) on a yearly basis for a good portion of his career.
For whatever reason, the Pro Bowl selectors, and many newspaper publications clearly favoured Parrish over Riley while both were with the Bengals, while the reverse was true in the case of the Associated Press. It seems to me like Parrish may have been slightly overrated in that sense, while Riley was definitely underrated.
I would still take Parrish over Riley for the Hall of Fame…regardless of how you feel about the Pro Bowl nods, they are on record and they are something that carries great weight with selectors. However, my guess is that their careers were a lot closer in quality than the numbers and post-season nods would imply. It would be foolish though to think that Riley was the better cornerback though based purely on INT’s. It’s a fact that high INT totals can often be caused by teams targeting the lesser skilled player in a cornerback tandem.
To use some recent examples, players like Deltha O’Neal and DeAngelo Hall have had big years INT-wise, but in reality, they took a lot of chances and often hurt their teams more often than not by getting burned by going for the big play. The same was true with guys like Lito Sheppard, Chris McAlister, Dre Bly, Nathan Vasher and Sam Madison who all burst onto the scene and flamed out very fast once they lost their speed because they were ballhawks who had poor coverage ability. I anticipate guys like DeAngelo Hall, Antonio Cromartie and maybe even Asante Samuel will suffer the same fate when they slow down.
On the other side of the coin, you have guys like Nnamdi Asomugha, who made 3 Pro Bowls and 2 First-Team All-Pro teams from 2008-2010, yet only had 2 TOTAL interceptions over those 3 seasons. Why? Because he took top receivers out of the game by preventing QB’s from even having the opportunity to throw to them. Darrelle Revis was an All-Pro and DPOTY candidate in 2010 with 0 INT’s. Guys like Antoine Winfield, Louis Wright and Frank Minnifield have had great careers despite low INT totals, and even guys like Darrell Green and Deion Sanders had relatively low INT totals for their skill level (and when you consider how long they played) because they were consistently avoided by QB’s.
Sure there are guys that provide the best of both worlds (Champ Bailey, Charles Woodson, Aeneas Williams, Rod Woodson, non-2010 Darrelle Revis, etc.), but that’s why they are in, or are likely headed for the Hall of Fame.
Maybe one of the older commenters on the site (one that saw both play) can shed some more light on the Riley/Parrish argument.
BSLO, thanks for the comments, and there’s a lot to like in what you say.
The only thing I would question is why AP honors mean more than those from other organizations. I’ve seen the thought that UPI and NEA and Pro Football Writers, for three, were considered every bit as prestigious in their day as AP if not more so — have seen the thought, for example, that the NEA awards carried more weight than AP because players had more direct input on these awards. In fact, the only weak link award set I have seen an argument against is Sporting News up until ca. 1980, which was apparently little more than an all-conference team masquerading as something more. I think some folks get the idea that AP’s teams mean more than the rest because that’s what the Pro Football Reference site counts as definitive, something they’ve come under a strong amount of fire for on a consistent basis, if reports I’ve seen are accurate. In fact, it was because of such complaints that they started listing all awards organization’s teams a few years ago.
With that in mind, Parrish received 2nd team mention in 1974 from PFWriters and NEA, 2nd team mention in 1975 from NEA, 1st team mention in 1976 from NEA, nearly unanimous 1st team mention in 1979 (AP, NEA, PFWriters, PFWeekly), and several 1st team mentions in 1980 (NEA, PFWriters, PFWeekly). Riley’s total award list is shorter — as you mentioned, 2nd team mention in 1975 by AP and PFWriters, 2nd team mention in 1976 by the same two organizations, and 1st team mention in 1983 by AP and PFWeekly (and if you want to count Sporting News after 1980, them also for that year).
So even when measuring by 1st team and 2nd team all pro choices overall, Parrish has the advantage — if we assume the various organizations picking them are of comparable reputation. And there’s no question Parrish was favored over Riley not just here but by the pro bowl — and a whole lot regarding the pro bowl, as 8-0 is a huge edge here. I’m thinking there are concrete reasons for that, but since I don’t have film to study, I can only speculate thoughtfully based on the evidence I’ve got. If everyone was getting it wrong, they were getting it consistently and spectacularly wrong over a period of ca. 10 years — and if so, why and how? And so far I’m only seeing a “because I said so” argument from chris, and anybody can say that without definitively establishing their credentials and explaining detailed specifics of what their eyes are telling them.
Thanks for the reply bachslunch. I appreciate your commentary on the AP issue. That’s always been a bit of a blindspot of mine, so the clarification that you provided was awesome. Your assumption about why people think the AP honours are more important is bang on in my case. I frequent Pro Football Reference on almost a daily basis, and remember the point in time when they suddenly changed the way they displayed All-Pro honours. As one example, Rickey Jackson’s career suddenly looked a lot less impressive when he went from having 7 All-Pro selections to having 0. I had assumed that this had been done for a reason, and I assumed that since they viewed AP honours to be the “most important”, it must have been a widely-held view. That’s interesting to know that they have encountered criticism for that choice.
I agree that if this is the case, Parrish comes out on top by a clear margin again. The argument I made above was admittedly a bit paper-thin, as it was the only advantage that I could see working in Riley’s favour aside from the INT argument. Fans obviously did like both players though, as they were both on the preliminary nominee lists on a yearly basis right up until they became ineligible.
2013 HOF Class Prediction
G Larry Allen
DE Charles Haley
WR Andre Reed
RB Jerome Bettis
CB Aeneas Williams
2013 Senior Class – if they started puting these guys in the HOF the credability of Senior process would be greatly improved in my eyes.
G Jerry Kramer
S Johnny Robinson
LB Chuck Howley
WR Cliff Branch
LB Isiah Robertson
S Jake Scott
NG Curly Culp
MLB Leroy Jordan
QB Ken Anderson
WR Drew Pearson
LB Bill Bergey
C Mick Tinglehoff
WR Harold Jackson – IMO Jackson was better than Charlie Joiner . Joiner’s stats as a No 2 or 3 WR for “Air Coryell” got a huge boost that Jackson never had the fortune of having.. Both were extroidinary effective late in their career’s. Be it the times or whatever, Jackson is the best I’ve ever seen at catching the “bomb”. That’s saying a lot playing in the era of Branch and Warfield!!! I would compare his ability to go deep with a young Randy Moss but of course Randy’s size made him a better overall player. Jackson was 5’10 and dripping wet maybe 175lbs. :)
i dont know about aeneas williams getting in next year i think strahan or sapp will take the place of williams in that slot for 2013
or two offensive lineman
Williams was in the final 10 for 2012, Bettis was not and would have to jump Williams first into final 10 in 2013 and then for election. I do not anticipate any huge push to elect Bettis and foresee a few more years await ahead for him. Given the recent interest by the voters to add defensive players with Williams move into the final 10 in 2012 I see him as a likely election in 2013. Given the backlog at both WR and DL, I do not see two OL in 2013 nor more then one first time election if any, Sapp will not get in before Allen or Strahan. I am not so sure Strahan has a strong case for 1st time election, Allen’s case is better, Sapp has none.
Really hard to say what voters will do with Parcells, but if we say their feeling is that he is done coaching he becomes the most likely election in 2013. So it could look like this for the modern candidates: Allen, Haley, Carter/Reed, Parcells and Williams.
I was watching NFL Top Ten on NFL Network. I always learn something new. I missed the show on top ten RB tandems but saw the ones for WR’s and CB’s.
I believe the Mark Bros were ranked seven 7 . Not bad, most of the others included Recieving Corps of 3, 4 or 5 like the “Air Coryell” who were number one on the list. The “Greatest Show on Turf” was number two, 49ers of the mid-80’s were four and the Redskins’ “Fun Bunch” were eight. The Redskins of the 1960’s were maybe five with HOFers Charley Taylor and Bobby Mitchell. Both were converted over from other positions and when Mitchell came to the Redskins in 1962 it was an all-white team. They had a pretty good TE that I remember in Jerry Smith who they suggested had been left out of the HOF discussion because of rumors that he was gay. Smith has 20 more TD’s than his namesake HOFer Jackie Smith.
Back to WR’s, I’ll maybe start a war but :) when you look at film of all these great players it sure makes me sick and tired of hearing how Jerry Rice is the best of all time. No doubt he is statistically but I’m certian other WR’s could of been just as good. IMO that’s like if I went around saying the 1972 Miami Dolphins are the best team ever because they are the only team to go through the season undefeated. Most people would get sick of that in a hurry but why does no one challenge Jerry Rice as not only the best WR but best player ever? Heck, there’s a chance he wouldn’t of played all those years if his skinny self played under the non-rules of the Night Train Lane and Mel Blount days. I’m just saying, where is the discussion or objectivity?
Bachslunch, if would please go back into your memory bank of players and give me a couple of WR’s who could rival Rice in overall talent. I would think Paul Warfield and Lynn Swann could match his grace. I don’t remember Warfield well enough to critique his total skills. I know it was said that he ran some of the most precise routes of his day. To have year in your prime with only 29 catches and still be in the HOF says something. I’m sure both would of greatly benefited from the no bump before 5 yard rule. How about a world class sprinter like Bob Hayes? I wonder how many first ballot Hof WRs there have been? Crazy Legs Hirsch? Bambi?
The only thing that surprised me about the top ten CB was that there was no mention of the Rams 5’9″ bookends in Rod Perry and Pat Thomas. I thought they were one of the best tandems in the 70’s. In 1978 they both had 8 ints and were PB but how does Perry have 8 picks with 3 of them going to the house and not make AP? Answer is that acolades are a year behind and if Perry wasn’t injured the next year he probably make AP. More useless info. LOL
This is one that I missed for top ten backfields of all time.
1. Taylor and Hornung, 1960’s Packers
2. Brown and Mitchell, 1958-61 Browns
3. MacElhenny, Perry, Tittle, Johnson, mid-1950’s 49ers
4. Harris and Bleier, 1970’s Steelers
5. Moore and Ameche, late 1950’s Colts
6. Lincoln and Lowe, 1960’s Chargers
7. Csonka and Morris (also Kiick), early 1970’s Dolphins
8. Craig and Rathman, 1980’s 49ers
9. Boozer and Snell, 1960’s Jets
10. Byner and Mack, 1980’s Browns
As you can see it’s fairly rare to have even two good RB’s let alone great ones on a team. Seems like there must be some more. Wha t about Calvin Hill and Walt Garrison or even better Tony Dorsett and Robert Newhouse. They blew it on this list! Craig and Rathman! Come on, doesn’t exactly come to mind. I’d go Warrick Dunn and Mike Alstot. Didn’t the Vikings of the 60’s have a good one? Maybe for today go with Ben Tate and Arian Foster. That’s it, they’re fired :)
Correction: I meant to say, no bumping AFTER five yards. That was a HUGE rule in opening up the offensive game. One exception was Michael Irvin who played by his own rules. :)
I remember Riley!! LOL I had the pleasure of watching the Bengals at least twice a year since I was in the Houston market.
I have to admit Riley did nothing to impress me. Certianly not a shut down CB or better than average tackler. He’s about the most average athletic player I’ve ever seen with an outstanding stat that’s ever played. This is to say nothing about the man but as a player I’d call him “lunch bucket” and nothing more. He a good career.
In addition I’ve never heard one teammate suggest he needs to be in the HOF. And the Bengals have had some high profile media guys in Bob Trumpy, Cris Collingsworth and Boomer Esiason.
You know not everywhere in the 1970’s was great football playing being played. Im an older guy and tend to glamourize the time but there was a lot of sorry teams back than. Nothing like today’s parity where a team can go from last to first in a season. If you were the Oilers you were BAD for years. It was definetly a time of feast or famine with the Colts, Dolphins, Raiders, Steelers and to a lesser degree Bengals doing the feasting on some bad quarterbacks. Probably what hurts Riley is that aside from a couple stand out players over the decade know will ever accuse the Bengals of having a dominant Defense. Only one time was their Defense ranked as high as fifth. The Bengal I’d give the most support to is LB Bill Bergy but he left for the lowly Eagles in his prime. He was a beast who along with Claude Humphrey turned the Eagles into a Super Bowl team. Than I’d support Parrish, Anderson and my special fav is “the Great” WR Issac Curtis. With Joiner Jr. Riley would be the 4th or 5th Bengal to the HOF from a team the had more losing seasons than winning. Not going to happen .:)
Sorry but I can’t support Riley at all. If you could give me another meaningful stat like the Chiefs were 32-1 in games where Saftey Johnny Robinson had an interception than maybe but I only remember Riley as a lunch bucket guy for an average defense on a 8-6 team. I’m glad he made it to the SB. :)
Chris, you do have a point about acolades not always telling the tale a career. I was thinking about All Pro and it would be kind of hard for anyone during that time when you have the likes of Ken Houston and Mel Blount playing for 10 years. 1st ballot HOFers are a good reason not to put too much meaning on a lack of AP’s. Of course there’s always John Riggins with his 1 year. LOL You know 5 int TD returns is pretty good. Some great players have never seen the endzone. Riley had a 9 , 6 and 5 (in 9 games) interception years where his team won 10 plus games in each year. Hmmm. Still this guy was so vanilla. Can anyone other than Chris put their advocate hat on in support of Riley? I know it seems odd with the guy having 65 ints.
Tony, I partly agree with you on Rice. He was probably the greatest WR I’ve seen and I think he belongs in the argument for greatest WR of all time, but I think it’s silly for people to crown him “greatest NFL player” (my vote goes to Sammy Baugh). Sabol’s NFL Network list a couple of years ago was a farce. Even on a pure statistical basis some have credibly argued that Don Hutson was a greater WR than Rice. Hutson is the Babe Ruth of WRs. His accomplishments were that dominant for the era in which he played.
And that Top 10 series is cheesy. They take a great idea but apparently put little effort into the rankings and usually find ways to screw them up.
I agree with Rasputin about Sammy Baugh being the best overall player. He was the “first real quarterback”. The forward pass was a desperation play prior to Baugh’s time in the league. He brought it to the front burner for the offense. It was an every down type play. He was very good at it too, of course. As a defensive back he was definitely above average. And punt wise? top five without a doubt, probably top 3.
ken houston was a great cornerback
I agree! He did it all! Plus I like my number one player of all time to be a Quarterback. In addition the WR position doesn’t recieve HOF love easily so I have a hard puting then at the top of the best player. Really the discussion is dumb.
What a two-way player like Chuck Bednarik did over his career makes him pretty special in my eyes. I know Frank Gifford would like to forget about him. LOL I’m pretty sure Jim Brown thinks his bad self is the best player ever. I’m not telling him no. LOL
Finally I believe the Redskins Charley Taylor who was converted over from RB to WR to only become the best WR of my generation must be in the convesation for Top WR all-time. Taylor was a tough guy and didn’t mind puting a lick on a player.
Jim Brown is easily top 5 player of all time. He could of played linebacker if he had to or was asked of him. I don’t mind any position at number one,as long as there is concrete, definitive evidence. Chuck Bednarik was an excellent center and linebacker. Bullet Bill Dudley did it all as well. He should of been on the top 100 NFL players list.
In 1946, Bill led the NFL in rushing yards, interceptions on defense, and punt return yardage. Also led his team in passing yards and passing TDs.
randy gradishar was a good linebacker as well
how about johnny robinson? do you think he is a hall of famer?
Johnny is a definite Hall of Famer
put him in for 2013
Johnny Robinson should’ve been in years ago.
LaDainian Tomlinson is retiring as a Charger tomorrow. He’ll be eligible in 2017.
Agreed that Ken Houston was a great player, though he was a safety and not a cornerback.
Agree fully with Rasputin and Tony P. that those “Top 10” lists on the NFL Network are terrible. All you need to know is that one of the “Top 10” Heisman winners in the NFL on their list was Tim Tebow (leaving off Doak Walker and Tim Brown in the process). And their “Top 10” players not in the HoF is laughable even given the constraint that the player has to have been a Finalist at some point, mostly containing guys who will get in anyway soon enough and really don’t need to be listed (Cris Carter, Andre Reed) and guys who don’t belong in or are very marginal (Jim Marshall, Ken Stabler) — the only two I agree with on their list are Ken Anderson and Jerry Kramer. For my money, a much better such list (if only limited to those who were actually Finalists at some point and aren’t sure to get in soon enough) would have been Anderson, Kramer, Duke Slater, Johnny Robinson, Mac Speedie, Dick Stanfel, Claude Humphrey, Randy Gradishar, Cliff Harris, and L.C Greenwood.
And yeah, those “top 100 of all time” lists aren’t a whole lot better. You tell me how to rank, oh let’s say, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, John Unitas, Walter Payton, and Joe Montana from #1 to #6 among offensive players. Puh-leeze….
I honestly wonder how Joe Namath made the Top 100 list while Larry Wilson and Steve Largent were left off.
tomlinson is a first ballot hall of famer most definitely
LOL! I was wondering who would catch my mistake on Houston’s position. You didn’t let me down Bachs :)
L.T. was such a great RB and TD maker but I wonder how many fans will remember him for his effort or lack of in the AFC Championship game vs New England about 5 years ago. I for one have the picture of him standing on the sideline (with a pouting expression) seared into my memory as his QB left it all out on the field.
And maybe a year earlier he caught fans off guard by behaving in a unsportsmanlike way when his team suffered a playoff loss to New England in a game the Chargers were favored.
Maybe it’s the media’s fault for making him into something no player could live up to? That said, I feel like a lot of the L.T. love has been lost.
I honestly didn’t remember those incidents and even after Tony and Mike brought one of them up on PTI I only vaguely remembered it and wasn’t sure if I was mixing it up with some other incident. We live in a short attention span world.
The bigger issue with LDT is probably his teams’ lack of success in the playoffs and the relative shortness of his prime, a problem his weaker later years exascerbated. We heard a lot of talk of how great he was, but not everyone will see him as having that aura of greatness around him.
I’d say he has an excellent chance of going in first-ballot, but it’s not a lock.
As for the “Top 10 Not in the HOF”, I think part of the point they were making with Carter and Sharpe may have been “they should have gone in first-ballot”, while Reed really had been snubbed more times than he should have, though Stabler, Plunkett, and arguably Carter (or at least how high he was ranked) show they were going for what the casual fan might think at a casual glance as opposed to people like us who have actually studied these kinds of things. Besides, “sure to get in soon enough” is kind of subjective. After all, while it’s still hard to imagine them not getting in, given what’s happened in the years since Reed and Carter not getting in “eventually” seems a bit more plausible now than it did then…
And hey, at least one of the picks we would agree with (Kramer) ended up going #1.
I would say in the years I have started watching football, I would say either Marshall Faulk or LaDanian Tomlinson was the greatest running back I ever saw.
LT was the last active player remotely in striking distance of Emmitt Smith’s record, and I don’t see Peterson (given his injury struggles and pace) or any other current star getting it. Barring rule changes (like a discussed expansion of the season), that record could stand for generations.
Emmitts’ rushing total is not going to be broken. Id be surprised if AP gets up to the C-Mart range of 14,101. Thats a lot of yardage, especially for today. Passing is the number one option.
Reed and Carter made the top 10 in 2012 and have many more years on the ballot, for them it is not a question of if but of when they get elected. There is way too much debate and focus on this issue of a 1st time election and whether a player is deserving of 1st time election or not as with only five modern slots it is always a numbers game and not always a judgement on whether a player is a HOFer or not. A list of the top 10 players not in the HOF should instead focus on players like Kramer or Stabler who have been passed over or not seriously considered rather then players in the 15 finalist list for several years but not yet elected.
L.T. is likely a first ballot HOFer depending on the lay of the land so to speak. My point is that his beloved image of a model football citizen has taken a hit in the eyes of many fans. Piggy banking on what I said before, someone tweeted on the Dan Patrick show, after L.T. stated on the show that he was proud that he had never had a surgery or concusion during his whole career, the tweeter said it showed that he never played at 100%. I think that’s terribly unfair to say but it goes along with my view that a lot of people think L.T. was soft and not a team player when things weren’t going well. I can buy into that because there are some examples.
still reed and carter should both be elected to the hall of fame in 2013
Given the apparent split among the HOF voters over Reed and Carter my continued fear is until enough rally around one of them they may both stay unelected. With the remaining final 10 from 2012 and at least 3 solid first time players added to the pool in 2013 my greatest hope that at least one of them gets elected so the WR backlog can get broken, perhaps they both should be elected in 2013 but I doubt that will happen and at this point with this WR logjam continuing last few years lets get it broken open with one of them in.
Have there ever been two wide recievers elected in the same year? Seems unlikely.
There have been numerous elections with more than one player from the same position, but given the current backlogs at WR, OL and DL I simply do not see room for both Reed and Carter in 2013
and you also got tim brown in that discussion also
Given that Carter and Reed made the final 10 in 2012 and Brown did not indicates to me that the HOF voters have set Brown aside for the time being until they first sort out the order in which to elect Carter and Reed.
yeah ur right on that one. plus he wasnt just a wide receiver, he was also on special teams and we all know that the writers has a bias against that position but im sure brown will get in soon within the next five years or so.
Here’s a sick stat, only two WR’s over a 50 year period have been elected in the same year. 1983 it was Paul Warfield and RB turned WR Bobby Mitchell.
No wonder why the WR’s are behind the eight-ball. Some one needs to let the voters know that the impact that WR’s have made on the game has changed over the last 35 years. :)
does anybody know when they will announce the new senior nominees for 2013?
3rd week in August
ok, thank you. hopefully in that time, people like jerry kramer or johnny robinson will be nominated
I think they both have a good shot (and would be deserving), the problem is that there are another 18+ players that will also receive consideration give their finalist status in recent senior candidate elections, and with a selection committee of only 9 people, it only takes a few votes to make a difference in or out for any of these players. Again here is the list as I understand it of those considered as senior candidates last August. The nine voters could go many different directions when selecting from a list like this.
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (2012 finalist)
G – Bob Keuchenberg 2/6/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (2012 finalist)
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s/80s (2012 finalist)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s/80s (2012 finalist)
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (2012 finalist)
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s (2012 finalist)
DE – Claude Humphrey 5/6/1970s (2012 finalist)
DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s (2012 finalist)
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (2012 finalist)
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (2012 finalist)
LB- Dave Robinson 2/3 60s/70s (2012 finalist)
CB/S – Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (2012 finalist)
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (2012 finalist)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (2012 finalist)
P – Ray Guy 6/7/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
Chuck Howley is the most deserving of those. Robinson and Tyrer were AFL players who received most of their accolades in the 1960s, and for most of that decade that league wasn’t quite on par with the NFL.
Although I would have my preferences (ranked in order as: Robinson, Howley, Kramer, Tyrer, Tinglehoff, Branch), I would be hard pressed to disagree with any two of from that list of twenty to be selected. I am not so sure that the AFL versus NFL debate carries much weight as the quality of play by many NFL teams in the 1960s was also pretty average given expansion and long time bad teams (Steelers for example) in that era, but some HOF voters may still have an ant-AFL bias. In my view, members of the 1st team All time AFL team – such as Robinson and Tyrer – are deserving of the HOF.
I’d agree they’re deserving of the Hall of Fame, but just pointing out the accolades may be somewhat inflated. The NFL was significantly stronger than the AFL in the latter’s first several years of existence, so, as with USFL stats, such accolades should be considered but with an asterisk.
The AFL may have not been up to the quality of the NFL when it started but by the end of the decade and start of merger and Superbowl clearly the teams and players of the AFC showed they could bet the NFL and unlike the USFL which only lasted 3 years, the AFL went directly head to head against the NFL for ten years for players and fans and in the early Superbowls (which the AFL team won 2/4) and several AFL teams and hundreds of AFL players moved into the NFL with the merger.
A comparison of the AFL to the USFL is not even close and the NFL and HOF accepting records from the AFL and AAFL is fair and reasonable with no need for an asterisk.
at least they should put in maxie baughan in, he was a great linebacker back in the day
I didn’t say the USFL was as good as the AFL (though the USFL also landed a bunch of high profile college stars and several future Hall of Famers), I just pointed out that the AFL wasn’t quite as good as the NFL for most of the decade. Green Bay totally trashed the best AFL team in the first two Super Bowls, and those who said the top few NFL teams could have won those games were probably right. The Packers were hardly head and shoulders above the rest of the NFL in 1967 (their record was third best at 9-4-1), while the Raiders at 13-1 were the only AFL team with double digit wins. The Raiders dominated their opponents with a 16.8 points/game differential (#1) and yet the Packers still blew them out.
The “AFL” didn’t get its first Super Bowl win until the 1968 season, and it was a hard fought upset three years into the merger process and two years into the common draft. It’s questionable whether the AFL was truly still a separate league at that point, but regardless the dynamics had changed. Even then the average AFL team was probably weaker than the average NFL team. In 1970, the first year of regular season interleague play, old NFL teams went 39-19-2 against former AFL teams and enjoyed a 5.9 point/game differential. This advantage persisted for a few years.
Of course there should be an asterisk attached to AFL stats. Quality aside, it was a different league. They aren’t NFL stats. I’m not sure which “AAFL” you’re talking about, but AAFC stats rightfully don’t count toward players’ career NFL stats. For example, you can see the sharp decline in Otto Graham’s (still great) passer rating after the Browns joined the NFL, despite his team winning the NFL championship that first year and remaining an elite contender for the next several years.
Until the Jets showed the Colts and the NFL how to play football. 18 point underdogs. ha ha ha. What. A. Joke.
AAFC stats are included in the official NFL records. And yes the USFL did outbid the NFL for some players (and also sign underclassman) but the overall quality of league play in only three years was much lower then NFL and the AFL. And yes a few of the players from the USFL (who were also top college players who only went to the USFL for the money) had HOF careers but not because of what they achieved in the USFL but due to their outstanding NFL careers. Many of the best USFL players who ended up in the NFL never had HOF careers. Yes Green Bay better then AFL in the first two SBs but they also dominated the entire NFL for several years so I am not so sure those SB wins are any indication that the NFL was by far greater then the AFL as Green Bay in the 1960s regularly bet all the other top NFL teams of that era. I would agree that the AFL was not equal to the NFL but that the quality of play was closer then you would state and certainly far above that which occurred in the USFL. Historians of the game have never had an issue with including AFL stats in the official NFL records since the merger was a merger and not simply folding a few teams and players into the NFL it was a recognition of the merger of the two leagues the same reason why the history of the NFL includes the AFL.
Wrong, Paul.
“Initially, the Hall’s Top 20 differed from other lists in that the statistics of the All-America Football Conference (1946-49) were included in the numbers. The NFL does not recognize AAFC stats and the inclusion of those statistics have become somewhat insignificant. At the end of the 2008 season, only two players are affected by not including the stats from that defunct league. Hall of Fame teammates Otto Graham (passing) and Lou “The Toe” Groza (scoring) would rank in the Top 20 if their AAFC stats were included with those numbers compiled during their days in the NFL.”
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/story.aspx?story_id=3130
Which is the way it should be of course. Although the Browns, who dominated the AAFC, were able to win an NFL championship their first year, the rest of the AAFC was nowhere near NFL quality. The 49ers were the second best AAFC team and they and their fellow AAFC Baltimore Colts (not those Colts) were the bottom of the barrel their first season in the NFL.
Of course AFL stats do count toward NFL records, which was an unfortunate term of the merger agreement, and illustrates that sometimes bs decisions are made for pure political reasons (like Goodell pretending the new Cleveland Browns are somehow the classic Browns for lame pr reasons, when in reality the Baltimore Ravens are). As for AFL quality, I just cited numbers to point out that the Packers were far from dominant by 1967 while the Raiders were extremely dominant in the AFL, and that the NFL teams enjoyed lop sided domination over former AFL teams for years after the merger. Since you acknowledge the AFL was weaker, I’m not sure precisely what you’re disagreeing with on that score. Again, I never said the USFL was as strong as the AFL, but the key point here is that the AFL wasn’t as strong as the NFL. In fairness we don’t know how the best USFL teams would have performed against NFL teams. My money would be on the NFL, but a USFL champion or two might have pulled off a Namath like upset, especially if the league had continued for several more years and gotten stronger. Any given Sunday.
As for whether AFL stats should be considered, I never said they shouldn’t be. An asterisk is worth a mention though, and any historian worth his salt would at least take that into account. It was undeniably a completely different league for at least the first half of the decade, one essentially made up of expansion teams at that, so it’s not the same as…say….an established conference that’s part of a larger league in draft and schedule having a slump. If one is talking “NFL” history (and let’s be honest, though it was called a “merger” the financially strapped AFL was swallowed by the NFL, which is why it’s still called the “NFL”*), then one should at least be clear when the topic shifts to stats from AFL history.
*Interestingly the NFL came closer to changing its name after the AAFC absorption. Despite only taking three teams, they briefly called the league the “National-American Football League”, though it was almost immediately changed back to “NFL”.
afl, nfl. does it even matter. its still pro football.
Even though the AFL Super Bowl rep. lost early on I think the League’s overall talent had gained a good foothold by the mid-60’s and the NFL brand of football was clearly diminished because of a lose of exciting players. A few good ones who chose the AFL or the NFL were Lance Alworth, Johnny Robinson, Buck Buchanan and Matt Snell.
But it wasn’t until 1965 when the AFL really broke through in the Draft by getting the prize Joe Namath. That showed the League League was here to stay. That year the AFL also landed Fred Biletnikoff, Jim Nance, Marty Schottenhiemer, Otis Taylor and Verlon Biggs. In 1967 the NFL combinedits draft with the AFL.
Along with their 1st high profile QB Draft pick to hang their hats they also had a dominating Team in the Texans/Chiefs with a brash young HC and a budding rivary between the Chiefs and Raiders. They had few teams but they had the country geographically covered from east to west to south. They were here to stay. Rest is history! Did you know QB Steve Spurrier was pick the NFL 49ers ahead of HOF QB Bob Griese? The NFL still can’t pick QB’s right.
The worst football league ever was the WFL World Football League which broke the hearts of many Dolphin fans by signing Csonka, Kiick and Warfield. League only lasted a year. I don’t think I ever saw a game! Did anyone else?
I actually watched the USFL. Who can forget the great play of so many players including Herschal Walker, Jim Kelly, Anthony Carter, and Bobby Hebert. I really believe in 1985, Walker would of been as unstoppable (2,411 yds and 21 TDs) in the NFL as he was in the USFL that year. He than took Tony Dorsett’s job and was traded for 12 players than they said he wasn’t any good anymore because he ran too straight up. LOL! No one complained about John Riggin’s running style. Both were Diesels but Walker had the speed of a world class track star. Put the man into the HOF. I can’t figure why he went from a beloved college player to a bit of a joke in the media and public’s eye. No one could of lived up to the expectations of being acquired for 12 players. I was living in Minnesota in 1990 and it was crazy. He could do no right and it was true that he probably lost a step but he was a good player still well into his 30’s. A tremendous physical specimen who took a pounding.
The AFL outbid the NFL for a number of top college players who went on to have great AFL careers. Those same college players were high draft picks by NFL teams as well, so they were highly valued and would have had great NFL careers if they ended up in that league. My only point through all of this has been that AFL players deserve an equal shot at the HOF even though many played their best years in the AFL. For much of the 1960s the quality of play and players in the AFL was closer to the NFL then some would admit to and a complete merger of the AFL (all ten teams) into the NFL reflected the high level of play by the mid 1960s and the deserving status of AFL stats as NFL quality.
only two more months to the 2012 induction ceremony, i can’t wait!!!
one more month???? August 4th
I could live with a Chuck Howley and Johnny Robinson induction. Or Howley and anyone else, lol.
Howley and anyone on that list, I mean.
seems like a fair assumption
24 days left till the enshrinement ceremony!!!
hopefully terell owens reported jail time stint for not paying child support things will keep him put of the hall of fame once he is eligible
Terrell Owens off the field antics won’t effect his stock that much and it shouldn’t. Hall of Fame is about on the field activity, not off the field. If it is all about morals, than take out Orenthal James.
i guess. he along wit randy moss r just overrated players in my eyes
That’s fine. Many players in the Hall are over hyped, but doesn’t take away what they have accomplished individually on the field.
i guess. in my opinion, they r going to wait a while before they get into the hall of fame, definitely not first ballot. but anyway, does anybody know when they will annouce the presenters for the 2012 hall of fame class because the ceremony is coming up very soon in about 20 days or so?
They changed the format of the presentations a few years ago after to many presenters were taking too long (the father of Steve Young took almost 1/2 hr to just introduce him!). Now rather provide a presentation on the stage, the presenters are featured in a short introductory video, so their public role is less. Perhaps the reason that they were not announced on the HOF website?
i know that they changed the format and all. but they still have presenters and they do annouce whos presenting who before the induction ceremony so when will that happen because the ceremony is coming up very shortly here
I was just suggesting with the reduced profile and role of the presenters perhaps the HOF deemed it unnecessary to announce them via HOF website which was the norm. Many of the inductees mentioned the selection of their nominees previously once they were elected perhaps a google search would find them?
like this…
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/02/18/dermontti-dawson-announces-his-hall-of-fame-presenter/
Looks like it was around this time last year that the HOF announced all the presenters in advance of the event
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/07/11/hall-of-fame-announces-presenters-for-class-of-2-2
oh ok, i see. well, im sure they will announce the inductees soon on the hall of fame website, i guess it is just taking much longer than previous years so that they have no setbacks or changing of the presenters or something like that, but im sure they will come out with it very soon.
only 18 days left
Chris are you attending the event or big fan of one of the inductees?
no unfournately but i love football and the history of it all and watching the pro football hall of fame ceremony to me is like the start of the new football season and seeing legends of the game getting inducted is quite remarkable so thats why i love the hall of fame and football itself. im glad they got mostly defensive players in this year as opposed to the offensive side of the ball there.
My Two senior Nominees Jerry kramer Chuck Howley
good choices there robert
I am making this as my guess as to who the seniors selection committee will nominate when they meet next month (not whom I would choose):
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s/80s (2012 finalist)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (2012 finalist)
If I had a vote it would be for:
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (2012 finalist)
LLB – Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
Good choices everyone. For me, it is Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson. One from two sides of the ball.
im sure that is what they will do as far as the selectors are concerned
I agree with Brad. Those two seem to be the most glaring omissions. I hope the Committee gets it right and go with two players that fans have been routing for, for many years and personify greatness on Super teams of the 1960’s.
I believe Vince Lombardi said Kramer was the best Guard he had ever coached. That should mean something, right? If not chosen this year you have to ask, why does the Committee continue to avoid the obvious? Maybe it’s time to fix the system!!
I disagree. Choosing Kramer over Howley would be hard to take.
are the presenters going to be announced soon on the hall of fame webiste? because its only 11 days till the ceremony
Another way I look at these senior selections is at those players who should NOT be selected at all over the likes of Kramer, Howley, J Robinson, et al. for example these players:
RDT – Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (2012 finalist)
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s (2012 finalist)
DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s (2012 finalist)
RLB – Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (2012 finalist)
MLB – Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
Now I am not saying any of those (or others) should never be selected, but only after the more deserving players go first. Frankly I would have no problem of Kramer over Howley or Tyrer over Tingelhoff as long as a top contender gets selected and not a more marginal player in m opinion.
Good points Paul! They need to take care of unfinished business first. Me personally I hope they don’t try to reach back to the 4o’s or 50’s for a suprise. Get some folks in their who can enjoy the glory of the HOF for a few years.
I started this website (75% complete) than turned over to Troy Robinson awhile back. Unfortunately it has never been completed but their are pictures recollections of Johnny’s career. I hope the grammer and spelling are legible. LOL
http://www.johnnyrobinson42-afl-superstar.com/Guestbook.php
You can check it out and sign guest book. Troy will see and maybe Johnny will write you back?
r the presenters going to be annouced soon for the class of 2012?
presenters have been released on the hall of fame website and only 9 earl campbell days away till the 2012 hall of fame ceremony
Looking at the enshrinement list, from what I remember, I don’t think Cris Doleman was better football player than Kevin Greene, Sam Mills or Charles Haley.
Greene was vital to every Defense he ever played for even late in his career. People always want to diminsh his game for being sack oriented and not much else but I don’t remember it that way. That’s just what he was asked to do. Haley was a unique superstar that was the glue to those Cowboy Super Bowl defenses. The diminutive Mills’s tackling ability was text book and he had a motor comparable to Greene which was out of this world. I hope these guys get their just rewards soon. I don’t know what the hold up is?
Jack Butler was a fine player but I suspect he was no Johnny Robinson who stats came under a more competitive atmosphere. Butler’s Steelers were losers. How often do we say the player who’s been to Super Bowls is regarded as the better candidate. Why recognize Butler? He’s certianly no stand out like a Dick Butkis or Leroy Selmon. He just seems like a stretch at this time with other better candidates. Seems like the Senior judges have been doing a lot of stretching lately. LOL Lets hope they do better this time.
Pretty subjective when comparing Doleman (150.5 sacks #4 all time, 2/8) to Greene (160 sacks, #3 all time, 2/5), perhaps the additional pro bowls and playoff success and better game against the run swayed vote to Doleman. Haley is lower in comparison in terms of numbers (100 sacks, 25# all time, 2/5) but of course he has the 5 SBs. I think the only hold up is the backlog of rushing DE/LBs within the final 25 and 15 in recent years and that still remains, so they voters have to decide on a pecking order. My guess is that Haley is next (he made final 10 in 2012) with election in 2013 and 2014 with Greene following soon after. If similar backups did not exist at WR and OL we may have seen more than one pass rushing DE/LB elected but not until those backups are also cleared out as well. In my view in the last few years and continuing for at least the next several elections the quality of the final 15 is pretty deep, causing delays for deserving players like Bettis and Greene. I do not believe that is a question of the voters dismissing their cases but the number of equal or better cases among the nominees.
With Butler I think it was a case of the seniors committee and voters looking to recognize the history of the league by advancing candidates from the pre 1960s and Butler was one of the few remaining members of the 1950s team of the decade not elected. Given some of the difficulties in getting pre 1960 players elected in recent years I would suspect the seniors committee will now increasingly not reach so far back but focus more on the 1960s and 1970s players, especially those on the decade teams from AFL and NFL from those decades.
As I have posted before I believe an anti-AFL bias has kept Johnny Robinson out of the HOF for years, a situation I hope is resolved soon.
Paul, thanks for your insight.
yes thank you paul
5 more days left!!!
Tony, I think it’s good Chris Doleman at 3(2AP)/8/90s gets in. I think he’s deserving, and you can’t push in every eligible and deserving player at OLB and DE all at once. I also think Kevin Greene at 3(2AP)/5/90s belongs in, and I’m okay with Charles Haley at 2(2AP)/5/none as well.
Paul’s informative and very good post mentioned sack totals, and there’s no question Doleman’s 150.5 and Greene’s 160 are a lot larger than Haley’s 100.5, for what it’s worth. Greene also forced 23 fumbles and recovered 26, Doleman forced 44 and recovered 24, Haley forced 26 and recovered 8, and for what that’s worth, Doleman has a lot more forced than the others, while Haley has a lot less recovered than the others. INT numbers are similar, and low for all three — 2 for Haley, 8 for Doleman, 5 for Greene — again, for what it’s worth.
I also think Sam Mills at 3(1AP)/5/none belongs in, as he and Karl Mecklenburg at 4(3AP)/6/none are arguably the best ILB/MLBs from the 80s/90s not yet in.
Re Jack Butler, I think he’s deserving, and given that DBs (especially safeties, at which Butler played about half his career) aren’t at all over-represented in the HoF, I’m fine with him being elected. Of course, it shouldn’t stop there, and we all know the snub list pretty well. And Robinson certainly belongs. Hopefully, he’ll get a chance sooner or later.
only 3 more days away!!!
which hall of famer’s speech are you most excited to hear come saturday’s enshrinement ceremony?
Jack Butler’s
Jack Butler for me too.
curtis martin for me
I am guessing that Chris has imploded from excitement by now?
John Lynch over Steve Atwater…no way.
My Top 8 Favorites for 2013
2013 Inductee’s
Cris Carter
Bill Parcells
Jerome Bettis
Larry Allen
Andre Reed
Tim Brown
Paul Tagliabue
Jerry Kramer
Next 6
Johathan Ogden
Kevin Greene
Warren Sapp
Michael Strahan
Charles Haley
Johnny Robinson
Other Eligible Players
Aeneas Williams
Don Coryell
Edward DeBartolo Jr.
George Young
Karl Mecklenburg
Morten Andersen
Roger Craig
Ron Wolf
Steve Atwater
Steve Tasker
Terrell Davis
Todd Christensen
Will Shields
Morten Anderson
Edward DeBartolo Jr.
Bryant Young
John Lynch
Priest Holmes
Steve McNair
Steve Atwater
Clay Matthews
Karl Mecklenburg
Donnie Shell
Senior Pick:
RG – Jerry Kramer 5/3/60’s (2012 finalist)
G – Bob Keuchenberg 2/6/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
C – Mick Tingelhoff 5/6/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LT – Jim Tyrer 6/9/60-70’s (2012 finalist)
QB – Ken Anderson 3/4/70s/80s (2012 finalist)
WR – Cliff Branch 4/4 – 70s/80s (2012 finalist)
RDT –Roger Brown 2/6/60’s (2012 finalist)
NT – Curly Culp 1/6/70’s (2012 finalist)
DE – Claude Humphrey 5/6/1970s (2012 finalist)
DT – Alex Karras 0/4 60s (2012 finalist)
RLB –Maxie Baughan 2/9/60’s (2012 finalist)
MLB –Tommy Nobis 1/5/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LLB –Chuck Howley 5/6/60’s-70’s (2012 finalist)
LB- Mike Curtis 2/4/60s-70s (2012 finalist)
LB- Dave Robinson 2/3 60s/70s (2012 finalist)
CB/S Eddie Meador 2/6/60’s (2012 finalist)
CB – Lester Hayes 1/5/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
S – Johnny Robinson 6/7/60’s (2012 finalist)
FS – Cliff Harris 3/6/70’s (2012 finalist)
P – Ray Guy 6/7/70s 80s (2012 finalist)
*Member of HOF Enshirnement Committee
Greg why list 8 when only 5 can be elected? Also keep Kramer separate as he would be a seniors candidate and not a modern candidate. Can get confusing with the numbers to mix them, better to think of 5 modern plus 2 senior since those are the respective maximum to be elected and they are not voted on together but separate.
As to your top 8, I would question Bettis, Brown and Tagliabue, as none of them advanced to the final 10 for 2012 election and with four solid first time nominees in 2013 I do see any of those three getting past the final 15. Also Carter (or Reed) have a great shot but not both. Also Aeneas Williams advanced to the final 10 this year and certainly will be in the mix within the final 15 for 2013.
And does anyone know if Chris survived HOF weekend?
i did and it was great. my picks for 2013 would have to be andre reed, bill parcells, jerome bettis, larry allen, and warren sapp with two senior nominees that will get in also and that will be jerry kramer and johnny robinson making a total of 7 for the 2013 class and and the hall of fame number from 273 to 280 even
My predictions for the top 15 finalists:
Larry Allen, Michael Strahan, Jonathan Ogden, Warren Sapp, Cris Carter, Andre Reed, Tim Brown, Will Shields, Bill Parcells, Kevin Greene, Aeneas Williams, Charles Haley, Jerome Bettis, Ron Wolf, and Steve Atwater.
Out of these, my best guess for the inductions would be Allen, Strahan, Shields, Reed and Haley. I think the HOF voters have really looked at trying to balance out the numbers for offense and defense the past few years, so that bodes well for Haley or A. Williams if voters don’t both go for Strahan and Sapp the first time around. I think Reed is the first in line for the HOF voters’ pecking order (ahead of Carter and Brown). I’m fine with that, but hopefully at least one can go in to break the log jam, especially with Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce coming up.
Seniors is tough to predict: I’ll go with Maxie Baughan and Mick Tinglehoff. I’m still surprised Howley, Kramer and Robinson are not in….
Also, I believe Donnie Shell is now off the modern list of eligible nominees since his last year was 1987 (similar to how Ray Guy and Lester Hayes were removed last year since they last played in 1986). I assume the same might be said for Kenny Easley, but unfortunately he or barely any other pure safeties have trouble breaking into the final 15 at any year. It will be interesting to see how Lynch fares, as Atwater just last year broke into the top 25, but LeRoy Butler, Joey Browner or Deron Cherry has not even gotten a whiff.
Not a bad list Chris, but I see no way in which Bettis jumps from final 15 in 2012 to election and in the process moving ahead of other 2012 final 10 including Haley and Williams, as your list has too many offensive players (3 out of 5) whereas HOF voters in recent years are seeking more balance and more defensive players. Also I have serious doubts that the voters will consider Sapp a first time selection especially when you consider that there is bound to be a split among the voters between Sapp and Strahan, and something suggests to me some voters are not going to support Sapp this time around (he will get in but will take a few years).
I am going with (as modern candidates):
Larry Allen
Bill Parcells
Cris Carter
Charles Haley
Aeneas Williams
(But I could easily see Carter replaced by Reed and Williams replaced by Strahan)
BTW glad to hear you enjoyed the weekend.
excellent list there but i think there going to replace williams with either strahan or sapp based on the fact that there are more first ballot guys than ever before and also by 2014 and 2015, the hall of fame will get all the guys in that were holdovers from before so thats how i look at it. and i think reed will get in before carter because he has waited longer than carter has. and as for haley i dont think he is going in because of his problems with the media that voters can’t put him in because of that so thats why i think bettis gets in just to get the running back position out of the way and you don’t have to worry about it till ladainian tomlinson goes in 5 years from now
Every year has several first ballot candidates and 2013 is no different, in fact 2013 has only four realistic 1st year election possibilities (Allen, Ogden, Sapp and Strahan), another number not that different then many previous years, but only rarely is only more than one elected, and those would be among the best to ever play their positions, a qualification that only Allen would meet. I doubt more than 1 or 2 (Allen and Strahan) will get elected in 2013 because what is true about the 2013 election, and holds for recent and future elections, is that the quality and depth of the final 15 is great, many voters stated that those in final 10 not elected in 2012 (Bill Parcells,
Cris Carter, Charles Haley, Andre Reed, Aeneas Williams) were all deserving. That is my prediction sees 4 of them being elected in 2013 and not more first timers.
Williams has made the jump from 15 finalist in 2011 to 10 finalist in 2012 and Haley has made the same jump. Seems to me that the majority of HOF voters support both. I have no doubt that both Sapp and Strahan will make the final 15 in 2013 perhaps even the final 10. IF we assume that Allen is a 1st time election in 2013 I see no major motivation to make both Strahan or Sapp a 1st time selection certainly not Sapp. Although I will concede that it is possible Strahan could replace Williams, but not Haley as he has been on the ballot longer and general understanding (based on his final 10 selection in 2012) is that he is the next best defensive player to be selected, if the voters had a problem with Haley due to his relationship with the media why would he make it as far as final 10 as once a player gets that far he is elected within the next few elections. I think the bigger issue with Haley in terms of delays with his election is fewer sacks, all pro, and pro bowls on his resume compared to the other recently elected pass rushing DE/LB players – but it is clear he is next in line for election.
It is hard to sort out chances for Reed and Carter as before 2012 voting Reed was ahead in terms that he had advanced further in the cutdown from 15 to 10, but Carter made it that far in 2012 so at this point they would appear to have equal cases and a split remains among the voters, at some point (hopefully in 2013) a presenter makes a convincing enough case for one of them to break the logjam and get one of them elected, at this point I could care less which one as long as one does, but am betting on Carter only because his career numbers are better but it would not surprise me to see Reed elected first in 2013.
As to Bettis he has another three elections before the next HOF RB appears, so I see plenty of room for him in one of those future elections and I am sure the HOF voters see it the same way. Also in looking at 2014, 2015, and 2016 (below) the first time players in those years are not as many from recent elections and in 2013, with each of those years then having 3 or more open slots for elections (total of 9 openings) for previous players not elected including Bettis, Carter/Reed, Tim Brown, Kevin Greene and Will Shields.
2014 Newly eligible: Tony Dungy, Marvin Harrison, Derrick Brooks (first election 1: Brooks?)
2015 Newly eligible: Isaac Bruce, Edgerrin James, Walter Jones, Ty Law, Kevin Mawae, Orlando Pace, Junior Seau, Kurt Warner (first time election 1 or 2: Seau!, Jones or Pace?)
2016 Newly eligible: Brett Favre, Randy Moss (first time election 1: Favre!)
Again many of those newly eligible from 2014 to 2016 will get elected, but will take a few years for some, many elections for others.
opps….. if Moss makes the 49ers roster this year he would not be eligible in 2016 (same goes for TO).
But my main point stands as the quality of 1st time eligible players is not as strong from 2014 to 2016, leaving plenty of slots for those not elected in 2013 to secure spots in coming elections. By my count if we assume 5 modern slots per year there would be 15 slots from 2014-2016 taken by perhaps a total of four 1st time elections (Brooks, Seau, Jones, Favre) leaving 11 open to those unelected from 2013 , plus carry over of likely other HOFers from 2014-2016 not selected in their first years (such as Harrison, Bruce, Pace, Warner and others).
Remember these elections are always about the numbers with 5 slots per year and perhaps 10-15 worthy players each year, but any of the 2013 final 15 (certainly any of the final 10) not elected in 2013 will be elected during the 2014-2016 period as even if the voters only elect 4 modern players some of those future years there is room for the 2013 non-elected. I see the 2013-2016 elections as clearing out major backlogs of current players, especially at WR, DL, and OL due to the lower quality of first time players in 2014-2016 compared to 2013 and recent elections.
i hope so, especially the wide receiver situation, i mean i feel bad for andre reed who is a hall of fame receiver but cant seem to get in because of this backlog and also the fact that the passing game is different now than back in the day plus i still think the fact he didnt win a super bowl with those buffalo teams have the writers thinking we should leave him off for a couple of years and same goes for cris carter and tim brown, they never went to a super bowl or won a super bowl and there receiving numbers are wiped out because the passing game is so expanded now as opposed to what it was back in the day. and thats why reed, carter, and brown are turning out to be like the art monk situation a couple of years ago in 2008.
I think with the mess with WRs during the 2012 election the HOF voters now realize they have a logjam that is only going to get worse in coming years at WR and I look to some debate during the 2013 election that will bring a majority around to supporting one of Carter or Reed. Then just like DL and OL in recent years a “pecking” order of electing WRs will begin to unfold over the next several elections.
i hope so. especially with reed who i believe will the one who will go first because he has been a 6-time going on 7 year finalist as opposed to carter who has been a 4-5 year finalist and tim brown who has been a 2-3 year finalist
ok heres a question who would be on a list of worst senior nominees
You mean worst ever actually made to the voting committee, or worst possible (which I think would be almost limitless?)
worst possible
alex karras who never get into the hall of fame
If Darrelle Revis gets one more first team All Pro, he is on the fast track for the Hall of Fame. Patrick Willis is almost a lock; not a first ballot yet; needs another three seasons of play.
First off congrats to recent inductees, all are very deserving even Jack Butler!
I would guess that the senior nominees will be Jerry Kramer and Johnny Robinson although I would choose Lester Hayes and Chuck Howley although there are many senior canidated who should have already gotten in.
As far as the next group og regular canidates, this would be my list:
1. Will Shields
2. Larry Allen
3. Andre Reed
4. Charles Haley
5. Cris Carter
good list there billy
The mess with WRs during the 2012 election and the current logjam, I simply do not see a situation where both Reed and Carter make it in the same year, especially given the other quality 1st time and returning players on the ballot in 2013. Plus given the focus on defense in recent years would suggest four offense players on your list may be to many, I foresee Parcells or Williams replacing either Reed or Carter on your list. Also the HOF voters have never been kind to Guards so it is hard see they electing two in same year. Like previous OL elections they may follow a pecking order and vote in Shields first then Allen in 2014 or if they feel Allen is deserving of 1st time election select Allen and make Shields (and Odgen) wait another year. Either way they better elect OL in 2013-2014 before a logjam starts at OL by 2015(which will add Jones and Pace)!
yeah definitely we dont want a logjam of those offensive lineman there
Just a reminder to look for an announcement from the HOF on the 2013 senior candidates during the week of August 27th (if recent years are any gage as to the timing)
good hopefully its that week they announce it
New Case for Ken Anderson Hall of Fame case put on youtube.
Interesting take if you stop it and read about how much he was able to do with less weapons than the rest of his contemporaries. It does make you wonder what he could have done if he had more talent around him.
I did not realize he did not have a 1000 yard or pro bowl rusher or lineman until 1981 when he won the MVP and took the Bengals to the Super Bowl. Or, that he had been sacked more times than any QB in history at the time of his retirement.
Makes his numbers look even better.
Also it looks like he should have won the MVP award in 1975. And was overlooked for Pro Bowl to the more well known Bob Griese in 1974. Even though Griese rated well below Anderson in almost every category including being lower in passer rating by about 15 points. WOW!
Very detailed research and worth a look.
Here is the link…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i6uZt6cF9w
I just happened to look at the amount of Vikings in the HOF and there will be more in the near future. Has their ever been a more under achieving franchise in the history of the NFL?
got that right billy. had they won one of those super bowls they probably would induct jim marshall already who should be a senior nominee and soon cris careter will get in hopefully. anyway, senior nominees will be announced next week and hopefully the two guys will be jerry kramer and johnny robinson, no more nominating guys that we never heard of like jack butler although he was a good player back in the day and he deserves to be in the hall of fame, the so-called commitee needs to start nominating and inducting players that are well-known and are waiting to get in but can’t put that foot in the door, so jerry kramer and johnny robinson, make it happen!!!
excuse me cris carter. my bad.
Chuck Howley!
Chuck Howley – 6 Pro Browls, 5 First Team All Pros, SB MVP
Jerry Kramer – 3 Pro Browls, 5 First Team All Pros
Howley has twice as many Pro Bowls and was a hugely impactful LB who became the first defensive player to win Super Bowl MVP. As for the Vikings, I’ve always thought they had some of the greatest teams to never win a Super Bowl, but they may be the most generously represented team in Canton given their championship success (or lack thereof). Meanwhile the Cowboys are the worst represented team in Canton given their championship success and list of deserving players. That’s all the more reason to take this opportunity to finally induct Chuck Howley.
I like Chuck Howley as well, he should have been in long ago. There are many LB’s that seem to have been overlooked.
1.Chuck Howley
2. Randy Gradishar
3. Maxie Baughan
4. Mike Curtis
5. Bill Bergey
6 Dave Robinson
7. Tommy Nobis
8. Andy Russell
9. Robert Brazille
10. Matt Blair
Not to mention guys that are still on the regular ballott: Karl Mecklenburg, Kevin Greene and Sam Mills
Having mentioned all those players, I still believe Kramer and J. Robinson are way way overdue!
ok billy these are the ones i agree with 1,3( Should have been in a long time ago),4,5,6
Wuld L.C Greenwood, Donnie Shell and Dwight White be HOFamers if they played for another team? They seem to be bypassed for HOF consideration beacuse there are already many HOF’s from the 70’s Steelers
Yes Billy They would
And My 5 Senior Nominee Finalists: Jerry Kramer Chuck Howley Maxie Baughan Johnny Robinson Lee Roy Jordan
Thoughts
All good choices, I like Harvey Martin more than Lee Roy Jordan.
or jim marshall who should be in
Jim Marshall always brings a ton of debate on this site. He has great counting numbers but part of that was the longevity. Some would argue that his longevity alone should merit consideration. 20 Years in the trenches is a long time. His backwards run to the end zone is a gaffe that should be ignored. The Vikings had two different era defensive fronts that were unreal but still never won the Super Bowl. Which one was better?
1. Alan Page, Jim Marshall, Carl Eller with Matt Blair plugging the Middle from his MLB spot
OR
2. John Randle, Keith Millard, Henry Thomas and Chris Doleman.
I think Marshall gets a bad rap (deserving or not) for the Viking SB losses as they were beaten convincingly in each game; HOF voters are looking at those losses and deciding that no more Vikings from the 1970s era should be in the HOF, and one good easily argue that from those teams C Mick Tingelhoff (5/6) would be the better selection. Marshall’s lack of all pro and pro bowl teams compared to other Vikings and other Senior Candidates dooms him for any near future selection.
Billy – Not a doubt in my mind that the Purple People Eaters were better, and this from a Vikings fan that never saw the People Eaters play, but saw most of the careers of the second set. Part of the reason for that is that they four names you mentioned as the People Eaters actually played together–Randle and Millard never really did (they overlapped in 1990, but Millard only played four games, and Randle was a backup on that team). In that era, the Vikes always were looking for that fourth guy. Al Noga had a couple nice years, Doug Martin, Stafford Mays (who?), Tim Newton, Roy Barker, but they never really had that 4th guy with the big name like the People Eaters had. And even the People Eaters had some decent rotational guys (Bob Luertsema amongst a couple others).
Ok Made some changes first five Jerry Kramer Johnny Robinson Maxie Baughan Chuck Howley Mick Tingelhoff
Next 5: Harvey Martin Cliff Harris Cliff Branch Drew Pearson Jim Marshall
Third 5: Roger Brown Curley Culp Jim Tyrer Lee Roy Jordan Dick Schafrath
Thoughts
does anybody know when specifically they will announce the senior nominees for 2013?
Jm Tyrer was better than Tinglehoff in my estimation, but I know Tyrer ‘s personal history is troublesome. I know that shouldn’t matter but how does that not get brought up time after time leading up to induction ceremony. That could be tough on surviving family members. Hard to believe many of those other players are not already in. I might put Walt Sweeney, Lester Hayes and Kenny Anderson with those mentioned above.
Last year it was announced on Weds August 24th
One reason for the backup of seniors is that during the 1970s to 1990s when only one senior candidate was considered the HOF voters failed to place the maximum of 6 modern players into the Hall in many elections a trend that even continued into the early 2000s when 2 seniors could be elected many modern candidates fell into the senior pool as they were not elected as moderns even when there were slots for them in elections. It causes a huge impact on those players do not get elected, are replaced by newer candidates and so many of the older candidates never get in as modern candidates. Look back at the number of years when just 4 or 5 players were elected, that is why you are surprised to see so many high quality and deserving senior candidates. At least more recently 5 and 6 modern candidates (along with 1 or 2 seniors) are getting elected. For every time a modern player is not selected even though slots at open in many elections, those players end up piling into the seniors pool.
ok my top four finalists
Jerry Kramer
Chuck Howley
Johnny Robinson
Maxie Baughan
Four who Came Close
Ken Anderson
Roger Brown
Curley Culp
Jim Tyrer
Good top four list Robert, but Curley Culp??????????????
hopefully they will announce the nominees today!!!
Today is the day. I hope Jerry Kramer makes the list. He is the only member of the All-NFL 50 Year Anniversary Team not in the Hall OF Fame. He has been nominated 10 times (Is that a record?) He was a key force in the Power Sweep, a major reason in the success of the Packers in winning 5 championships, including two Super Bowls. Other teams knew this was their key play, but had a very hard time defending it. He made the key block in the Ice Bowl, which I’m sure we all know, but that is arguably the greatest block in NFL history. As far as off the field, his contributions to literature have began a new genre (sort of) which has had a positive impact on the NFL and beyond. And on a personal note, he signed my grandson’s cheesehead and my grandson got to meet him, and that means a lot to me.
The HOF just posted a story on the history of the senior candidates on their website, perhaps suggesting that the 2013 senior nominee announcement is soon to follow.
http://www.profootballhof.com/default.aspx
Senior candidates have been announced: https://www.zoneblitz.com/2012/08/22/culp-robinson-2013-senior-nominees-hall-fame/
Couple guys that have been mentioned a few times in comments, but not as apparent favorites…
The many players from pre-1975 on the seniors list are already in their mid 70s to early 80s in age, and other possible senior candidates are already in their late 80s or more (Culp is 66 and Robinson 71). I realize perhaps it is not a factor to consider, but as time goes on over the next several years to work through the seniors candidate list how many are still going to be alive when elected?
Art Modell died today. If not for the move out of Cleveland I’m certain he’d be in the HOF already.
Yes DeMarcus as assembled now, is not a first ballot Hall of Famer. He has the potential of being named to another 2 first team All Pro teams. Just look at his production the previous seasons.
Does Modell’s death change the equation for his Hall of Fame chances? Anyone think the Hall will deign to put him in this year?
Modell has been a finalist before so it would not be a surprise to me at all to see him in the 2013 final 15 pool, whether there are enough votes to move him into final 10, final 5, and then elected I am not so sure, but with the way these elections can often play out if he gets a great presentation it is possible.
Any thoughts on any of these special teamers?
Steve Tasker
Brian Mitchell
Ray Guy
Morten Andersen
Some interesting comments. Might I add something? Or three somethings?
To the Cowboys fans who think they’ve been screwed by HoF voters: the first Bronco in the Hall was John Elway. He was elected five years after the Broncos had won their second SB (out of six). At that time the Broncos had been to more SBs that any team except the Cowboys, and had no(!) HoF players. I think that qualifies as screwed over. Yes, a few more have gone in since, but that’s still only 4, and no-one, not even 1978 DPOY Randy Gradishar, from the legendary Orange Crush.
If Ken Anderson had played in Pittsburgh or NY or Green Bay he would have been in first ballot. His non-residence in Canton is an enduring scandal.
If anyone can explain how Terrell Davis is not in Canton they’re smarter than me. This is a guy remember who blew out his knee in 1999 makig a tackle after a Brian Griese pick. He only played 11 more games in three years before enforced retirement.
Davis was the best post-season RB ever; only Emmitt has the same number (7) of 100 yard games. But TD did it in 8 games and averaged – wait for this – 158 yards a game in the post-season. (plus two SB rings, a league MVP and SBXXXII MVP – details, details). To compare, Emmitt’s average is 113 per game; Barry Sanders? just 83.
In his 76 career games he scored 60 rushing TDs (that’s more than Roger Craig did in 165 games, just for comparison), and averaged 114 yards a game – second only to Barry Sanders amongst modern RBs. He was only the 3rd guy to rush for 2000 yards in a regular season.
What more does he have to do?
I know, I know, I’ve heard all the arguments:
‘he didn’t play long enough’ – see Gale Sayers;
‘It was all the Broncos line’ – so why isn’t Mark Schlereth in Canton, or Tony Jones, or Brian Habib? (Tom Nalen is eligible next year and he’s not exactly being pushed as a first ballot guy either is he?) You can’t have it both ways, people.
If Bettis goes in and TD doesn’t then it’s quite clear; the voters in Canton are morons who know jack-all about football.
Yeah, the Broncos, like the Cowboys, have been underrepresented in Canton. That doesn’t mean Dallas hasn’t been screwed though, or change the fact that the anti-Cowboys bias has been documented in a variety of ways. Also keep in mind that Denver never had a double digit number of wins in a year or made the playoffs until 1977. Some of the potential HoFers from the Orange Crush era, like Gradishar, didn’t retire for a few more years after that, and of course the Elway era ran from the 1980s to the 1990s, so it’s not like most of the candidates have been waiting THAT long.
For a quick and dirty metric that doesn’t precisely mean anything but is still telling, the Broncos have 7 primary players all time with more than 5 Pro Bowls. Two are already in the HoF, one is still active and a shoo in future HoFer, two retired in the 1990s and are currently HoF semifinalists, and the other two are Gradishar and Dennis Smith, neither of whom ever won a Super Bowl. Gradishar was a HoF semifinalist in 2003 and 2008, while Smith retired in 1994 with zero first team AP All Pro selections, and is the only one of the bunch to not get his day yet as at least a semifinalist. On top of that 1960s/1970s RB Floyd Little was inducted a while back to make three primary Broncos, with Zimmerman counted as a “major” contributor to Denver by the HoF as a fourth Bronco in Canton.
Meanwhile the Cowboys have 15 primary players with more than 5 Pro Bowls. Two are still active and 5 of the others aren’t in the HoF. Four of the 5 haven’t even been considered as a semifinalist. One of the 5 retired in the 1990s, while the rest retired in the 1960s or 1970s, with Cliff Harris being the only one to make it far in the HoF process so far (2004 finalist). All 5 have AP first team All Pro selections and all but Don Perkins have Super Bowl wins. Obviously the older guys would all have to be inducted through the senior process now.
What’s more….
All Decade Players Through 1990s Not in the HoF (excluding special teams)
Broncos
Louis Wright CB (1970s, second team)
Terrell Davis RB (1990s, second team)
Cowboys
Ralph Neely T (1960s)
Drew Pearson WR (1970s, first team)
Cliff Harris FS ( 1970s, first team)
Harvey Martin DE (1970s, second team)
Mark Stepnoski C (1990s, second team)
I left out 1990s All Decade member Larry Allen, who’s in his first year of eligibility and will likely be inducted. The bottom line is that the Broncos’ underrepresentation probably owes more to relatively fewer worthy candidates with relatively recent careers than anything, and looks to be on pace for correction.
Terrell Davis had a spectacular peak but his elite career only lasted 3 years, while Sayers had 5 elite seasons. Even counting Davis’s good rookie season, where he rushed for over 1,000 yards but didn’t make the Pro Bowl, as “elite” would only leave him with four. For the record Sayers made first team All Pro his rookie season with 5.2 y/c and 14 tds in a 14 game season. He was first team All Pro the next four seasons too. Sayers is considered by many to be the Mendoza line for longevity when it comes to Canton induction, and if you embrace that premise then Davis falls short. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see what kind of career he could have had if healthy.
Jets have been underrepresented as well: Joe Klecko. Larry Grantham, Winston Hill,and Mark Gastineau. Marvin Powell has a reasonable resume as well. Art Powell played for another teams, but he played for the New York Titans for three years and he retired in the top three or so in receiving TDs.
Some good points by Rasputin. Alan, a couple thoughts.
One thing to remember is that HoF membership is an individual award. If we’re looking at bad Cowboy Senior-eligible HoF snubs, agreed we’re looking at Cliff Harris, Drew Pearson, and Chuck Howley as the worst of these, with at least some possible case to make for Cornell Green, John Niland, and Lee Roy Jordan. For Broncos, the one bad HoF snub is Randy Gradishar, and there’s at least some possible case for Lionel Taylor and Tombstone Jackson. If there were more Senior Broncos with a really good case, I’d be happy to bring them up, but I don’t see it.
Re Bronco linemen from the 90s, agreed that if there were a case for any, it would probably be for Tom Nalen. But his postseason honors are pretty much that of such center contemporaries as Matt Birk, Jeff Saturday, and Olin Kreutz — and all sit behind Kevin Mawae from the period. Mawae belongs in, but inducting lots of centers isn’t something the HoF historically does, and thus I can’t see a good case for Nalen or any of the rest. For current modern-eligible Broncos not yet elected, am thinking Steve Atwater and Karl Mecklenburg have good arguments, and perhaps Terrell Davis does as well (but for him, peak has to heavily trump longevity). For Cowboys, Darren Woodson definitely has a good argument.
Agreed that the absence of Ken Anderson from the HoF is an unacceptable situation. He should have gotten in long ago.
Re Terrell Davis, the comparison to Gale Sayers indeed doesn’t help him. Consider that short career players from the 60s on are going to see rough sledding to the HoF, period — and thus Rasputin makes a good point about Sayers perhaps being the “Mendoza Line” here. Davis has 4 excellent years, one so-so-year, and two useless one. Sayers has five excellent years and two useless ones. Sayers also has elite kick return status. Davis didn’t return kicks, so he gets no extra credit there.
“Yes, a few more have gone in since, but that’s still only 4, and no-one, not even 1978 DPOY Randy Gradishar, from the legendary Orange Crush.”
Gradishar should have been in already. I agree. How the voters went with Andre Tippett over Gradishar in 2008 I have no idea.
“If Ken Anderson had played in Pittsburgh or NY or Green Bay he would have been in first ballot. His non-residence in Canton is an enduring scandal.”
Anderson should be in, but in that statement are you only talking about quarterbacks? Charley Conerly played in New York and he has a Hall of Fame argument. If you mean non-quarterbacks, then all three have somebody who is not in who should be.
In my opinion: In the case of Pittsburgh, it’s Andy Russell and L.C. Greenwood. For New York, Jimmy Patton comes to mind and for Green Bay, Jerry Kramer should be in.
I do not believe that Anderson playing with a another team is any factor in his non-election, just that when you compare him to his peer QBs from the 1970s/early 1980s he lacks the career numbers, awards and playoff wins. Someday he will get selected by the seniors committee but in my view he fell short of election because of better QBs from that time frame. I do believe that he deserves the HOF; the seniors path works best for players like Anderson.
Tippett was selected during the flood of recent years to suddenly select more defense players, especially sack leaders, but I agree that Gradishar is certainly as deserving.
Greenwood I believe suffers due to the mindset of many HOF voters that there are already enough players from the Steelers, especially from the defense in the HOF.
As to the other pre 1970 players you mention, get in line as there is already a long list of more deserving players in the senior pool who should be elected.
I think both Greenwood and Russell would be better selections than Lynn Swann was, even though Swann was a receiver.
Also, Patton’s profiles are 5/5. I would take him as a senior candidate over both Culp and Robinson.
In my opinion, Gradishar isn’t as deserving as Tippett. He is more deserving.
I’m not sure which one is right. Gradishar’s wikipedia page says he made five first team all pros but pro-football reference said he only made two of them.
In any event, however, even if he only made two, his profile would be 2/7 and he has a defensive player of the year to boot. That is better than Tippett’s 2/5 and no defensive player of the year award. The only leg up Tippett has on Gradishar is an all decade selection and why Gradishar didn’t receive that honor I don’t know.
Clearly the HOF voters favor the all decade team selection and 100 sacks Tippett had. Not that I agree, but I certainly can understand why they would make that choice as it all comes down to how a voter evaluates a player and seems like those qualifications favored Tippett in the minds of the voter. A 2/7 or 2/5 profile is not that strong and often not that helpful to a candidate (just look at the number of players with those profiles NOT in the HOF, including many in the seniors pool.
The case for/against Swann has been debated and discussed many times in forums like this and in the public, all I can say is that the HOF voters always have liked the impact images and historical events linked to players, and the fact that it took many years to get him elected indicated it was not an easy or well supported decision by the voters.
Also I have never been a fan of degrading the selection of one player when trying to make the case for another more deserving one. Each player should stand on their own merits and not require tearing down an already elected player as means to justify getting someone else elected.
Re comparing Andre Tippett and Randy Gradishar, there’s an apples-to-oranges element to this. Tippett was an OLB while Gradishar was an ILB.
Gradishar’s postseason honors profile is 5(2AP)/7/none, and I think that’s plenty HoF-worthy.
Tippett’s 2(2AP)/5/80s profile is actually very good for an 80s-90s era OLB not named Lawrence Taylor or Junior Seau. Other HoF members or contenders at the position include (asterisks next to HoF-ers):
*Derrick Thomas at 2(2AP)/9/90s
*Rickey Jackson at 2(0AP)/6/none
Kevin Greene at 3(2AP)/5/90s
Charles Haley at 2(2AP)/5/none
Cornelius Bennett at 3(1AP)/5/90s
Pat Swilling at 2(2AP)/5/none
Greg Lloyd at 3(3AP)/5/none
My guess is that Haley and Greene get elected sooner or later.
For me, the question isn’t “why is Tippett in and Gradishar not?” but “why aren’t they both in?”
My sense is that with only 5 modern slots each year the voters are usually not willing to select more than one player from a position unless they deem both very worthy HOFers. I know that is not always the case but may be what impacts HOF quality players from getting in, such as the recent DL/LB and current OL and WR logjams are showing. Also Gradishar is being impacted by the continued addition of newer players into the mix for a consideration, an issue that has resulted in many other worthy HOF players staying on the ballot for years and in some cases ending up in the deep seniors pool.
“Clearly the HOF voters favor the all decade team selection and 100 sacks”
Something Kevin Greene has both of and more of, as he is third on the all time sacks list with identical profiles. If they had to go with a linebacker, based on that logic, why Tippett over Greene?
“The case for/against Swann has been debated and discussed many times in forums like this and in the public, all I can say is that the HOF voters always have liked the impact images and historical events linked to players, and the fact that it took many years to get him elected indicated it was not an easy or well supported decision by the voters. ”
A decision that I myself, do not support.
I think it’s fair to say Dwight Clark’s catch is more famous than Swann’s Super Bowl X catch. Swann has a 1/3 profile vs. 1/2 for Clark. That’s not the most staggering difference in the world.
Let’s look at the numbers.
Receptions
Swann: 336
Clark: 506
Yards
Swann: 5,462
Clark: 6,750
Receiving touchdowns
Swann: 51
Clark: 48
This is not me advocating Clark for the Hall of Fame but if what you said is the case then it seems like he got a raw deal with Swann going into the Hall of Fame over him.
“Also I have never been a fan of degrading the selection of one player when trying to make the case for another more deserving one. Each player should stand on their own merits and not require tearing down an already elected player as means to justify getting someone else elected.”
I agree but I think some of the players I mentioned do have some Hall of Fame merit.
Swann was not elected because of one catch, he was MVP in that game and also put up great career playoff numbers and in other superbowls. So I do not believe it is a fair comparison to Clark. He clearly was not elected due to his regular season career or single season numbers. Again I understand the debate, but lets at least agree as to the argument (right or wrong) that was made for his election.
I have no idea why Tippett was selected over Haley or Greene, may have been the case of vote splitting from the cuts down from 15 to 10 to 5. To me the order really does not matter as both Haley and Greene are getting in the HOF within the next few years as they are the best remaining of the pass rushing LBs.
Who do you see getting in first between Haley and Greene, if I may ask?
Haley advanced into the final 10 in 2012 so it appears that he is next, the unknown factor is whether Strahan on the ballot also in 2013 delays Haley for another year or whether the voters will elected two pass rushers among the 5 finalist slots in 2013. Hard for me to gauge whether there is uniform agreement among the HOF voters that Strahan is a worthy first year selection as they have sent mixed messages in recent years when it comes to first time selections especially in regards to linemen.
I think it would be hard for the Hall of Fame to keep him out first ballot given what a player he was in his day and his 4/7 profile.
I don’t think Haley was a Hall of Fame player but part of me hopes he gets in. As I said before, it’s not fair to keep somebody for never winning a Super Bowl while keeping somebody out despite playing on five Super Bowl winning teams.
John Abraham 3/4/none. He has 122 sacks, 7 seasons of 10+, 9 seasons of 9.5+, over 500 tackles, 41 forced fumbles. Simeon RIce 2/3/none, but he was on a very good Super Bowl winning defense and good defense besides the SB one. Rice is a part of that with John Lynch, Derrick Brooks,Warren Sapp. He also has 122 career sacks. 2nd quickest at the time to 100 sacks to Reggie White. Side note: Steven Jackson is gaining serious consideration approaching another 1k rushing season and 10k for career. Thoughts?
Both Abraham and Rice have very good numbers and profiles, just not great. I am sure they will get consideration but I do not see an easy or quick path to the HOF for either.
Jackson is going to need another 3-4 top seasons (pro bowl/all pro) and I am not sure he has it in him. Perhaps a change of teams would help, but he looks to me at the stage of his career to have peaked and will be prone to the post 30 year old RB decline.
Abraham’s profiles aren’t bad but as of right now I wouldn’t put him in. The good news for him is that he is still playing and can emerge as a late bloomer type Hall of Famer.
As for Rice, I have said before, and will state again, that Brooks, Lynch and Sapp would each get my vote for the Hall of Fame, if I had one. I cannot say the same thing for Rice.
And I’d also vote for Ronde Barber ahead of Simeon Rice from those Bucs defenses.
In the era of passing how do the HOF voters distinguish who’s worthy of the HOF? Seems like stats might be misleading. Here are some names of WR’s I wonder about: Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Donald Driver, Wes Welker, Anquan Boldin, Brandon Marshall, Roddy White, Marques Colston, Greg Jennings, Santana Moss and Steve Smith.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/634093-top-50-biggest-boneheads-in-nfl-history?utm_source=nrelate.com&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=nfl#/articles/634093-top-50-biggest-boneheads-in-nfl-history
A good example of this although from a long way back is the situation mentioned above in Clark vs Swann. Clark had the advantage statistically playing in the newly developed West Coast Offense which throws the ball over the lot. Swann was the much better player.
That said I’ve always disagreed with Swann’s selection. Not so much anymore. Now I think it’s more a situation that I’m upset that others are not in and he is. Players like Drew Pearso, Harold Carmicheal. Harold Jackson and Cliff Branch.
As far as Clark goes I don’t even think he was the number 1 WR on his own team. Maybe he was in the very beginning with first Super Bowl but not with Freddie Solomn and Jerry Rice on the team.
Total numbers are not what are going to matter with 80+ reception seasons and 900+ reception careers more common; comparative stats in the same era will separate out the HOFers from any such list, 4-5 per era and those with highest stats plus most awards and/or post season success. Just follow the current debate/logjam over the 900+ reception WRs from the 1990s. Which means players from your list like Boldin, Marshall, White, Colston, and Moss are not going to make the HOF based on 900+ receptions.
I have no problem with that. Some of their TD totals will be fairly high also. If not for TD’s I wouldn’t put Cris Carter in the HOF. I would imagine that’s what the voter’s are struggling with to a little bit.
The Drew Pearson thing really aggravates me. With all of his great catches and Super Bowls and NFC Championships how do they leave that guy out? And if you want to talk about a memorable catch, the term “Hail Mary” came from his catch and an improbable Super Bowl appearance resulted from the Cowboys moving on..
So what that the guy threw-up on national TV. LOL
I have no problem with Drew Pearson being in, but to me, Cliff Branch and Del Shofner are first in line for senior wide receivers.
How could the Hall of Fame voters leave some people out because of Super Bowls and yet they keep out a three time Super Bowl Champion with a 3/4 profile and played on three Super Bowl Championship teams?
Also, Del Shofner has a 5/5 profile and was named to the All Decade Team of the 1960s. It seems to me like he should have been in years ago.
Andre Johnson put together an “under the radar” type season with 2 yards shy of 1,600. Calvin had 1,964. Andre Johnson has played ten seasons and has amassed 11,254 receiving yards, including three 1,500+ yard seasons, six seasons with at least 1,142 receiving yards, and four 100 reception seasons. He has at least two seasons left of playing. If he gets 1,000 next year he is a lock for the hall. Calvin Johnson is setting himself up to be a potential first ballot Hall of Famer. His TD’s dropped this year but that is because defense do not want him to score period. He still finds ways to hurt teams despite being double and tripled teamed(Revis played him very well in 2010). He could get another season or two of 1,600+ yards. That would be Jerry Rice status, except for Jerry never had two 1,600+ yard seasons. Calvin has.
After an early injury and slow start Jason Witten added to his HOF creds with a record setting season (110 receptions for TE), all time Cowboys career receptions (806) which also places him third all time career TE receptions and only 9 behind Shannon Sharpe, also added his 8 pro bowl selection with chance for another 1st or 2nd time all pro selection. At age 30 and if healthy, 1000 receptions is possible with another 3 typical career seasons (averaging 80 receptions per) and a few more season awards.
Yes both Johnson and Johnson are well on their way to the HOF. I worry about Larry Fitzgerald and whether the mess that is the Cardinals and their QB situation if not resolved soon may end up costing him prime seasons in his career. Having signed that huge contract just last year it does not appear short of a super trade that he will be getting out of Phoenix any time soon.
I think Pearson and Branch both suffer from relatively short careers and low career numbers and no “signature” Superbowl catches or numbers. With careers spread across the 70s and 80s they both fell into the trap of having their careers compared to WRs from the early/mid 1980s when the rule changes started to result in a big jump in season and career receptions by other WRs in their prime in the early/mid 1980s. Then they became eligible against WRs with many more career receptions, all pros, pro bowls. I agree both should be in and should over time hopefully swim to the top of the deep seniors pool (Branch at least received some consideration as a modern candidate and appears to be among those considered in recent years as a senior).
Paul Warfield had 29 catches one year. No memorable catches. Low stats yet is in the HOF on the first ballot I believe. Why?
I remember Stabler to Branch appearing on Cosell’s MNF’s highlights at Halftime seemingly every week. They were one of the best long pass combos in Football history. Neither one is in the HOF. Pearson was the greatest sideline WR I’ve ever saw.
I cannot say I support Stabler for the Hall of Fame. More interceptions than touchdowns and I view him as simply a Joe Namath upgrade.
If any former Raiders quarterback deserves the honor, I would say it’s Daryle Lamonica.
Branch should, however, have been in many years ago.
The announcement for the 15 finalists should be next week.
Warfield was a 2xSB + 1 NFL champ with 6/8 profile, team of the 1970s, 85 TDs (pretty impressive for mid 60s/mid 70s WR) who retired with 20.1 average per catch (again very impressive), clearly one of the top WRs from the mid 60s/mid 70s era. when NFL offenses were dominated by the run and even a 40 catch season was considered pretty good. I do not consider myself a huge advocate for Warfield but I can certainly see him as a HOFer. As to a 1st year selection, that can often be simply a result of the other candidates also on the ballot that year and voters feeling Warfield was more deserving.
Ray Lewis: HOF Class of 2018.
I am thinking that with the announcement of their 2013 inductees by the Baseball HOF on Weds (Jan 9th) we may see the pro football HOF release of the finalists as early as Tuesday to avoid sharing the Weds/Thurs press attention with MLB – but admittedly that is just a guess by me. And given the potential for ties and a delay, it may be another week.
i dont think so cause peter king has filled out his ballot this week as he wrote about in his monday morning quarterback so i believe sunday or monday will be the finalist announcement of the 15 canidates also ray lewis first ballot hof in 2018 and by then all the candidates will be filled by that point that are left over from the 15 finalist list
We did set up a post to talk about Ray Lewis (or, more specifically, best LB of all-time, since I don’t think it’s much of an argument of whether or not Lewis will get in):
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2013/01/02/hall-fame-class-2018-ray-lewis/
Tuesday would be my guess as the HOF tries to avoid competing media attention for the playoff games and monday’s media focus on the wildcard outcomes. But as recent announcements have shown us, further delays with totaling the ballots, impacts of ties, and other issues, that it would not be a surprise to see the announcement later next week or following week.
Thanks Paul! Great points that I should of remembered as HUGE Dolphins fan of the 1970’s- early 2000’s. Paul was certianly, in many opinions (mine too!) the greatest route runner of his time. He also was the most graceful looking WR only rivaled IMO by Lynn Swann. I forgot about the 85 TD’s which IMO is an automatic entrance into the Hall. In addition Warfield had a profound effect on Miami’s Offense making the GREATEST running team in history. Yes I said it!! LOL Warfield definetly sacrificed his stats for the success of the team.
Ray Lewis is the best LB of all-time? One of no doubt but more talented at LB than Chuck Bednarik, Dick Butkis, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert, Ray Nitschke, Mike Singletary and Lawrence Taylor all who were elected on their first try, I think not. All you can really say with definety is that they were all great players.
LT, Lewis and Butkus are probably the Top 3 ever.
its going to be sunday or monday paul so i dont think it will be any delay whatsoever
Not Sunday with the wildcard games the focus for NFL and media, late Monday perhaps, my money (but not a lot of it!) would be on Tuesday. In 2012 it was on Jan 6th, Saturday of Wildcard games, so maybe tomorrow??
Sorry, Saturday Jan 7th was 2012 announcement day.
yeah i know that. i just think monday would be the day since peter king who is a voter has already got his ballot done and all they need to do is release the finalist list which will be monday worst case scenario it would be tuesday
looks like it will be tuesday to announce the 15 finalist list
Same with the MLB
MLB announcement is on Weds Jan 9
yeah so both lists will be announced on wednesday
or perhaps not
Barry Bonds and Rogers Clemens took votes away from Craig Biggio and Mike Piazza.
According to the Facebook page of the Pro Football Hall of Fame: Our selection process continues … Finalists for Class of 2013 will be announced live on NFL Network’s NFL AM show Friday morning during the 9 o’clock hour. Seniors Curley Culp & Dave Robinson will be joined by 15 modern-era candidates from this list of nominees: http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/11/30/2013-Semifinalists-for-Football-Hall-of-Fame/
Well at least the pro football HOF will elect someone in 2013.
Yes, as much as some of us have beef with the Pro Football Hall of Fame, at least we know that they won’t elect less than 4 people per year. I know that there are a lot of issues with deciding how PED’s affected the players on the ballot, but seriously there were around 15 HOF-worthy players on the ballot and they couldn’t even induct ONE? I think it’s obvious that the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s process works better.
Even if you dislike that the writers are involved with the selection process, at least there are only a small number of them, they have to be put in a room with other writers to discuss the candidates and be held accountable for their biases and most importantly, they have to vote for a specific amount of players. There are around 600 voters for the baseball hall that send their ballots in by mail and it seems like every year (especially lately), there are a number of them trying to make a name for themselves by preaching some moral high ground about what type of player/person deserves to get in, bragging about how the baseball hall is “exclusive” and hard to get into and the ultimate honour in sports, and consistently talking about how after 10 years on a ballot, they’ve really come around on a player and suddenly he’s become “worthy” of their vote.
Meanwhile, despite how “exclusive” their hall is, they’ve made a ton of very, very bad choices through the senior’s committee, and over the past few years, they’ve inducted several “hall of very good” types, like Andre Dawson, Jim Rice and Bert Blyleven. They will also throw around the morality clause when it comes to PED users because they “love the game so much”, but will completely ignore the fact that they’ve inducted racists, drunks, womanizers, amphetimine users, pitchers that legitimately cheated by doctoring the ball and even PED users like Babe Ruth, who was caught using horse tranquilizers and Pud Galvin who actually admitted during his playing career to frequently using PED’s.
With the football hall, players fail to get in because there aren’t enough spots each year, whereas in baseball they could induct tons every year yet they don’t, because writers have all these dumb “unwritten rules” (players need to hit these stat benchmarks, so and so belongs but not on the 1st ballot, so and so cheated…at least I think he did so he doesn’t belong…at least not right away…maybe later when I’ve had more time to think about their career) and can vote almost however they want. They can vote for nobody if they want to and some did this year, because they needed more time (like 5 years isn’t enough…please) to assess the PED era. All in all, I’m happy that I love football much more than baseball, because that hall would drive me NUTS.
And who loses out? The fans, who will now have baseball’s history altered for them by egotistical, hypocritical writers who turn a blind eye to cheating when it helps baseball and cry foul when it doesn’t; and Cooperstown who has to endure another year of declining attendance because nobody that’s been alive for the past 70 years is getting inducted. Anyway rant over!
What’s your source for the “horse tranquilizer” claim, BSLO? Even if that really happened, it sounds less like a true PED and more like a recreational drug or pain killer. Pain management drugs are generally allowed even today. If anything, Ruth is rightly famous for performance DEBILITATING substances.
As for the Hall, I would have voted for Dale Murphy. I don’t follow baseball as closely as football, but he’s probably the best all around player I’ve watched over an extended period. He gets knocked on longevity but his awesome peak performance was long enough and accomplishments historically significant enough to justify Cooperstown in my opinion. Plus he’s one of the last great players whom no one really doubts was clean. Hopefully he makes it in through the veterans committee.
Oops, that was an unfortunate spelling mistake on my part…I had meant to say horse “testosterone”. I have heard that claim for years, but admittedly a source was hard to come by, so it may be a false claim: http://www.steroidabuse.com/athletes-and-steroids.html. There was however an easier to find claim from a book that Babe Ruth did inject himself with sheep testosterone for the purpose of building strength (it didn’t work, he became violently ill instead). This can be found in multiple spots just by Googling “Babe Ruth Sheep Testoserone”.
As a rule, I don’t condone any form of cheating, but in the case of any performance enhancing drug (greenies, steroids, whatever), I think it’s only cheating if it was banned by the spot when they took it, and they tested positive. If this means Palmeiro and Manny Ramirez don’t get in, fine, but don’t cry foul on Bonds, Clemens, etc. for reaking a rule that didn’t exist. Like Babe Ruth with sheep tranquilizer, they were doing what the majority of athletes do…trying to get an advantage any way they could. I have a much bigger problem with pitchers that doctored balls or batters who used corked bats…that was against the rules, they definitively got caught AND it could have affected the outcome of games without question.
As for Murphy, I think he’s a true borderline candidate based on numbers and post-season awards, but with all of the hot air spewed about the “integrity” clause, it would be nice if the clause worked positively for a candidate for once instead of only getting invoked to discredit a candidate. Dale Murphy was to my knowledge one of the true Hall of Fame people to play baseball over the past 40 years, and to be honest I’d have no problem with that putting him over the edge.
I think he may have an easier time on the Senior’s Ballot. Let’s hope!
My question though is that a minimum of a certain of people must get elected, but let’s say if, hypothetically, some or none of the minimum fail to garner 80%. What happens then?
thank god that the finalist list will be announced tomorrow hopefully a surprise or two will come on that list tomorrow
Looking forward to the upcoming announcement! My final prediction is:
1. Larry Allen
2. Jonathan Ogden
3. Michael Strahan
4. Warren Sapp
5. Cris Carter
6. Andre Reed
7. Tim Brown
8. Jerome Bettis
9. Will Shields
10. Charles Haley
11. Kevin Greene
12. Aeneas Williams
13. Bill Parcells
14. Steve Atwater
15. Art Modell
16. Dave Robinson
17. Curley Culp
Corey,
I believe in such a scenario that if only 3 names get the 80% then the candidate with the next highest % becomes the 4th enshrinee. If two get the 80% then it’s the next two highest vote scorers, and so on.
Finalists for Class of 2013
LARRY ALLEN
JEROME BETTIS
TIM BROWN
CRIS CARTER
CURLEY CULP
EDWARD J. DEBARTOLO, JR.
KEVIN GREENE
CHARLES HALEY
ART MODELL
JONATHAN OGDEN
BILL PARCELLS
ANDRE REED
DAVE ROBINSON
WARREN SAPP
WILL SHIELDS
MICHAEL STRAHAN
AENEAS WILLIAMS
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2013/1/11/2013-Finalists-for-Football-Hall-of-Fame/
My early prediction (and I still suspect I will only get 3 or 4 of these right with the uncertainly and logjams at WR, OL and DL meaning any of the finalists at those positions could get in)
LARRY ALLEN
CURLEY CULP
CHARLES HALEY
BILL PARCELLS
ANDRE REED
DAVE ROBINSON
MICHAEL STRAHAN
Absolutely no surprises here. The 10 returning finalists from last year are back, along with the 4 best first-year candidates and returning former finalist Art Modell, who may have received a sympathy bump in votes thanks to his death.
The Pud Galvin Horse testosterone story has been around for awhile (he played before the turn of last century.) But I recently heard a round table discussion on MLB network where Bob Costas and Peter Gammons both mentioned it. Also while on the subject, do we think their are not PED users already in the Baseball HOF. Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Paul Molitor put up some pretty impressive numbers late in their career and all three spent significant amounts of time in their career playing with teams that had many players in the Mitchell Report.
no john lynch this year very surprising he didnt make the finalist list
I don’t know what a safety has to do to make the finalist list? Steve Atwater should already be in the HOF and Lynch should have at least been a finalist this year!
Just FYI, we’ve got a post up on today’s announcement. You can start discussing finalists here:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2013/01/11/pro-football-hof-announces-15-modern-era-finalists-2013/
Thanks.
AT
Billy, the claim in question was about Ruth. I knew about the sheep thing, lol, but, as you said, BSLO, that backfired. I wouldn’t equate early, arguably innocent and generally unsuccessful experiments with supplements in an era where drugs of all kinds were legal with PED use in the age of sophisticated steroids, where the drug impact is well established and players know how they’ll be perceived if caught. I agree about the corked bats and other stuff, though voters may make a distinction by viewing PEDs as something that seriously inflates a player’s career stats, whereas a corked bat or doctored ball could be an isolated occurrence, unless done routinely over many years. Sammy Sosa used steriods AND got caught red handed using a corked bat, lol. I wouldn’t put that guy anywhere near the HoF.