| Find out about the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2010 announcement, along with our thoughts and analysis. Also, check out our new 2011 Pro Football Hall of Fame Inductee guesses… |
Our 2009 Pro Football Hall of Fame Inductees post had a lot of discussion around it, so we figured we’d better come back and take a chance at 2010.
First, taking a look back at 2009, we only hit 3 of the 5 non-senior inductees–Randall McDaniel, Derrick Thomas and first time eligible Bruce Smith. Also making it were first timer Rod Woodson, who we debated about including, and figured would make it in a year or two, and Bills owner Ralph Wilson, who snuck in despite not even being a finalist in 2007 or 2008, and seemed like a bit of stretch to me, given the recent way he’s treated the people of Buffalo with his team (the whole Toronto thing).
Regardless, here’s looking ahead to 2010:
2009 Finalists Eligible Again:
WR Cris Carter
C Dermontti Dawson
DE Richard Dent
G Russ Grimm
DT Cortez Kennedy
DT John Randle
WR Andre Reed
TE Shannon Sharpe
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue
Notable First time eligibles:
RB Emmitt Smith
WR Tim Brown
WR Jerry Rice (assuming that his preseason adventures in 2005 aren’t held against him)
CB Aeneas Williams
So, our prediction for the Finalists of 2010:
WR Cris Carter
C Dermontti Dawson
DE Richard Dent
G Russ Grimm
DT Cortez Kennedy
DT John Randle
WR Andre Reed
TE Shannon Sharpe
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue
RB Emmitt Smith
WR Tim Brown
WR Jerry Rice
CB Aeneas Williams
RB Terrell Davis
owner Art Modell
A lot of people won’t like that last one, and it’s the one I’d say is least likely–but I feel that in addition to Tagliabue, one other “contributor” will make the finalist list.
And the Zoneblitz.com Class of 2010 will look like this:
WR Jerry Rice – Assuming he’s eligible, he’s a no-brainer. And, he probably keeps Brown out in his first year, and forces Cris Carter to wait another year.
RB Emmitt Smith – Again, a no-brainer–he’s the leading rusher of all-time. Even his recent horrible gig with ESPN won’t keep him out. And, combining with Rice, it means we will have to hear all kinds of Dancing With the Stars references, since Rice was a finalist and Smith won. Shoot me now.
TE Shannon Sharpe – He’s the leading all-time receiver at TE. Making him wait a year was fine, but will they make him wait more?
C Dermontti Dawson – A six-time first team All-Pro, seven-time Pro Bowler, and member of the All-90’s Team (see, we were paying attention to all the post season numbers put forth), it seems like at least one lineman gets in each year–and he looks to me to be the best on the list.
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue – Looking at the rest of my finalist list, I hope I forgot someone, as I’m not sure Tagliabue should make it yet. Then again, as we go into what might be the final year of the salary cap, with some potential labor problems on the horizon, if he’s not elected next year, he might have trouble making the finalist list again for a while.
To be honest, I’m not sure that all five of these guys would get a ‘Yes’ vote when it comes time to decide on the final list–but that’s what I’ll roll with. As for the 2010 Hall of Fame Senior Candidates, Tony Parslow and Brad have been discussing some of the potential names over on it’s own thread.
So what do you think? We’ve got about 50 weeks to discuss it this year–so let’s get going!
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I think Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith are lock no doubt. Now, as we can see from this year’s HOF inductees, the voters don’t like putting in 2 players of the same position in the same year. Thats why Andre Reed, Tim Brown and Cris Carter probably will not make it in next years class. Dawson will be tough because centers don’t get that much respect.
Gary Anderson is up for next year. i honestly think he has a shot, because when he retired, he had the most points ever. now he is 2nd all time with 2,434 points, Morten Anderson has 2,544 points. Gary was a 4 time pro bowler and 1 time all pro. In 1998, he was 35/35 in field goals and was 59/59 in extra points. he had 14 100 point seasons. he played in 353 games, 2nd all time. He was 820/827 in extra points which is very good. I think those are easily HOF numbers.
There is no way I see a kicker getting in on the first ballot. Even with numbers like those. Anderson might get in at some point–he also had four Pro Bowls and 5 All-Pro years (not all AP, and not all 1st team, though–only one of those, apparently), and was on the All-80’s and All-90’s teams. But he is a kicker–no way he makes it on the first ballot, especially with Rice and Smith as first ballot locks.
Well, Jan Stenerud was a first ballot, wasn’t he? His field goal percentage is a dismal 66.8%. Gary Anderson has a 80.1 field goal percentage. And Gary like you said is on the 1980’s and 1990’s all Decade team. I really truly think he has a shot. Thats just my opinion. Tony, what is your thoughts about Morten Anderson? I think he could be a first ballot.
I think Stenrud was second ballot (retired in 85, elected in 91), but even that surprised me. I think both Anderson and Andersen will get in–but I can’t see the electors taking a kicker first ballot no matter how good he is, and especially in a “special” year when they are going to be electing the all time rushing leader and all time receiving leader together on their first ballots.
Dan Marino, who is a first ballot HOF, retired in 1999 and he was elected in 2005. Jan retired in 1985 and was elected in 1991. Well, like you said, next year is a special year for the HOF. The HOF is going to put in the all time rusher, Emmitt Smith and the all time receiver, Jerry Rice. Why not put in the all time scorer in. When I mean the all time scorer, I mean when he retired he was the all time scorer. What’s your feeling about Curtis Martin in 2011? Im a Jets fan, And I know NFL,NBA, AND MLB very well. I know if a layer is a HOFer or not. And i know if a player is a first ballot HOFer. I think Curtis martin is a first ballot HOF. What do you think?
What is our feelings about Kevin Greene, John Randle, and Chris Doleman? I think Kevin Greene could make it. John Randle might.
I think Martin gets in–but I don’t know about first ballot. He’s going to be up against Marshall Faulk and Jerome Bettis at the same position. Martin has more rushing yards, but Bettis is only one spot behind him, and Faulk has more all-purpose yards. Both Bettis & Faulk have better post season profiles. My guess would be that all three cancel each other out, and none might get in on the first try.
I think John Randle makes it for sure, eventually–which is a dramatic shift for me, as I thought he was borderline, until someone pointed out that he was a 6-time All-Pro. The case can be made for Greene & Doleman, but I’m not sure either is a lock.
Hmmm…you are right about Stenerud:
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/Eligibility.jsp
He was a first ballot guy. That shocks me–but I guess in some people’s eyes, Stenerud redefined the position of kicker. I still don’t think Gary Anderson gets in on the first ballot.
I think Marshall Faulk is a first ballot because he has 12,279 rushing yards, which is 9th all time, he has 100 rushing TD’s which is 7th all time. He has 36 receiving TD’s, which is most by a running back. He has 767 catches, which is 24 all time. He has 5 seasons with 80 catches or more. No one in the HOF has that. He has a ring. He was NFL MVP. I think He is a first ballot HOF.
I want to know what you think about these stats. Do you think if a player gets 2,000 points in there career, do you think they should be in the HOF? I think they should be in.
I would agree that if one of the three is to get in on the first ballot, it would probably be Faulk over Martin or Bettis. I’ve seen a lot of sentiment that Bettis would get in over Martin too–although a fair amount of that sentiment was potentially Steelers biased.
I don’t think 2,000 points guarantees admission. As I mentioned above, I think that both Anderson and Andersen (the only two guys to score more than 2,000 points other than Blanda) probably get in the HOF. But not on the first ballot. Blanda played in a different era, when it was that much more impressive to break the 2,000 point barrier (which was aided by his time at QB).
Assuming they all play at least one more year, John Carney, Matt Stover and Jason Elam will presumably break the 2,000 point barrier next year–and Jason Hanson, Adam Vinatieri, and even Ryan Longwell and maybe John Kasay all have a chance to break the 2,000 point mark as well. Do they all deserve to get in? No way.
I would think Faulk, Martin and Bettis all get in at some point. Whether any of them gets in on the first ballot? They might be worthy of it, but there are so many quality guys on the outside looking in right now that predicting first ballot status for anyone outside Rice, Emmitt and Favre is awfully difficult.
I think we’d be stretching it to think that there’s a magic number for kickers to get into the HOF. To my knowledge, Stenerud is the only pure kicker in the hall right now and there is a dramatic difference between the stats kickers put up back then versus their stats today. They are ridiculously more accurate now than they were back then.
So while 2,000 points might make a fantastic career, I agree with Tony – not all of those kickers will get in.
Anderson and Andersen might, as they were top kickers just as the position was developing into what it is today.
But I don’t think either get in on the first ballot. I think ultimately Vinatieri gets in too. But I think of Carney, Stover, Elam, Hansen, and Longwell, few if any get in. The numbers they have put up, despite longevity, are too similar to each other in this era.
Just my opinion.
I agree with both of you. I just think if you get 2,000 points, you should at least be on the ballot. Curtis Martin is getting in the HOF. His numbers are so great. I’m a hardcore Jets fan and I have seen Curtis Martin live from 2001 to he retired. And I haven’t seen a player who was so good and so nice and quiet like C-Mart. I was there when he scored his 100 career TD against the Chargers. And I was there when he got his 14,000 rushing yard against the New Orleans Saints. When he accomplished those milestones, he didn’t dance or do anything. He is a gentleman. He also was a good receiving back. He has 17,430 yards from scrimmage. the players who have more than him are Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, and Marcus Allen. He is a lock for the HOF in my book.
What do your guys think about these players? Just tell me if they are first ballot or will make the HOF or will make the ballot or won’t make the HOF OR won’t make the list. Will Peyton Manning make the HOF? Will Tom Brady make the HOF? Will Kerry Collins make the HOF?.Donovan McNabb making the HOF? Will Kurt Warner make the HOF? Will Drew Brees make the HOF?
` Will Edgerrin James make the HOF? Will LT make the HOF? Will Fred Taylor make the HOF? Warrick Dunn? Jamal Lewis? Shaun Alexander? Clinton Portis? Ahman Green? Thomas Jones?
What about these WR. Isaac Bruce? Marvin Harrison? T.O.? Randy Moss? Torry Holt? Muhsin Muhammand? Joey Galloway? Derrick Mason? Hines Ward?
TE: Tony Gonzalez? Antonio Gates? Jason Witten? Jeremy Shockey? Shannon Sharpe?
OL: Kevin Mawae? Will Shields? Willie Roaf? Johnathan Ogden? Alan Faneca? Larry Allen? Orlando Pace? Dermontti Dawson?
DL: Michael Strahan? Jason Taylor? Kevin Carter? John Abraham ? Warren Sapp?
LB: Hardy Nickerson? Jesse Tuggle? Brian Urlacher? Ray Lewis? Joey Porter?
DB: Ty Law? Darren Sharper? Ed Reed? Champ Bailey? Lawyer Milloy? John Lynch? Brian Dawkins? Charles Woodson? Aaron Glenn? Rodney Harrison?
Special Teams: Morten and Gary Anderson? John Carney? Matt Stover? Adam Vinatieri? Jason Elam? Jeff Feagles? Steve Tasker?
Brad – I don’t have time to reply tonight, or possibly tomorrow, but I will try to get through your list. You can also check out this post, where I (and several commenters) discuss the merits of many of the players you mention:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2008/12/12/footballhall-of-fame-worthy/
Brad,
All I can remember about Gary Anderson is him missing a FG in one of the easier stadiums, that kept the Vikings from going to the Super Bowl. No way in the world that the Vikings team should lose that game in that year. They had one of the best seasons a team could have. It should of been Denver vs. Minnesota. Damn Kicker!!! I bet they pass on Gary and wait for Morten who has a little better stats and a much better profile.
Eddie Murray was money on those 50yd plus game winning kicks for a long time. Man, there seems like there’re about a dozen good kickers with really long careers.
Brad, you have to remember kickers dealt with a lot more elements when Stenrud played. Only one Dome. What about your guy Akers, Lowery, the Bahr’s, Mare, Dawson, or my guy Jason Elam. These guys are all a dime a dozen IMO. I was surprised Jan Stenrud got in at all. He wasn’t all that memorable to me growing up except being from Sweden and on a SB winning team. Someone said he missed the FG to win the Longest game vs. Miami? I remember Garo Yepremian “the 5’8″ tie salesman from Cyprus” , Roy Gerela “Gorilla’s” , or Jim Bakken the square toed straight on kicker with the crew cut, Fred Cox, Toni Fristch who looked about unathletic as you can with his pot belly always pulling up his too tight pants and his funny little mustache (a great kicker though)and Tony Franklin the barefoot kicker.
One year Garo Y. made 10 of 22 kicks. He’s be cut today. He made the PB the next year going 19-23. He was the all-decade kicker for the 70’s.
When Elam’s done I’d put him in with the for tying the longest kick at 63 yds plus he’ll have really good career stats. Otherwise why do they put these guy into the HOF? I know there’re really important but there’re like clons. The HOF voters don’t seem to have a clue on how to select them. The only difference to me is one stops at 40 and another at 45yrs old. They’re not much different than a golfer to me. I mean what kind of position are you better at 47 than 27. I haven’t seen where they keep track of game winning FG’s. That would be an important stat to know??
Brad, I’m working on replies to your email. You inspired me to make my own 53 man line up. I plan on finishing our list this week and getting in the mail by Friday.
Ok Tony. Thanks a lot.
What I meant to say about Gary was he has a shot, but he probably won’t make it. Eddie Murray was 48.8% from 50 yards. Thats damn good.
Do you remember Jim Turner? That guy was damn good at kicking. His accuracy wasn’t bad nor good, but he racked up a lot of points.
Do you think Jason Elam could make the HOF? I think he could.
My friend is an Eagle fan, and he said D-McNabb is a HOF. I don’t think he is. What do you think?
Marshall Faulk and Ladainian Tomlinson will be inducted into the HOF during their first year on the ballots. Curtis Martin will eventually make it and a later long shot will be Terrell Davis. It is possible to see either Cris Carter or Tim Brown get in in 2010, remember, they are #’s 2 and 3 behind Rice and could sneek in. Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice are certainly the locks and that is the feeling amongst football card collectors and investors as the rookie card market for these two have heated up.
Stan, I agree with your curtis martin and T.D. statements, and LT and Marshall Faulk in my book are easily first ballot HOF. But I don’t agree with your Cris Carter and Tim Brown statement. As you can see from this year’s HOF class, the voters do not like putting 2 or more players in the same position in the same HOF class. Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith are locks. So, that leaves 3 spots open. I think Aeneas Williams has a better shot making the HOF next year than Tim Brown.
Here is my list of players that are HOFers that are still active.
Quarterback: Brett Favre(Still Active..kinda), Petyon Manning, Tom Brady,Kurt Warner.
Running Backs: L.T., Edgerrin James.
Wide Receivers: Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Torry Holt(if he plays another 2 years),Hines Ward(if he cont. playing.)
Tight Ends: Tony Gonzalez.
OT: Walter Jones
OG: Alan Fancea, Steve Hutchinson(if he makes 2,3 plus pro bowls and 1 plus all pro teams),
C: Kevin Mawae.
DE: Jason Taylor.
LB: Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Derrick Brooks, Zach Thomas.
DB: Ty Law, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey, Troy Polamalu(if he gets his stats up).
Punters: Jeff Feagles( He is a long shot. If he plays another 2 years and totals over 71,000 punt yards and make 1 more pro bowl).
Brad:
Of the guys you mentioned (and a few others), here are the (1) locks, (2) maybes, and (3) should be in but may not make it…
QB: (1) Manning, Brady, (Favre); (2) Warner (I don’t think a HOF QB disappears for five seasons in the middle of his career, but I understand that others disagree)
RB: (1) Tomlinson; (2) James, Portis (with several more years of production)
WR: (1) Harrison, Moss, Holt; (2) Owens (the backlash to his antics will be strong), Ward (anti-Owens)
TE: (1) Gonzalez, Sharpe; (2) Gates (has the skill set, but many more productive years needed)
OL: (1) Ogden, Allen, Roaf, (W. Jones); (2) Shields, Pace
DL: (1) Strahan; (2) Sapp (will be harder than most expect)
LB: (1) Lewis; (2) Urlacher; (3) Tuggle
DB: (1) Reed, Bailey, Dawkins; (2) Lynch; (3) Law
K: (1) M. Andersen, Vinatieri; (2) G. Anderson
Thoughts?
Brad I agree with most of your picks, except Z. Thomas and T. Law and i am so-so on James and Ward.
I would add Gates and McNabb to your list of active players HOF bound.
Justin, I agree with most of your list. But I think Ty Law should be a 2, b/c he has 52 Int’s, he is a 5 time Pro Bowler, 2 time All Pro. He led the NFL in Int’s 2 times, he has 3 rings.
I think Terrell Owens should be a 1. As much as we hate his antics, his stats do most of the talking. He is second all time in receiving TD’s.
You think dawkins is a 1? I don’t. I think he is a 3.
Billy, the reason why I didn’t put McNabb is b/c I have a feeling he is going to end up like Dave Krieg. A player with good stats, but no ring and no MVP. If McNabb makes the HOF, than Dave should to.
Brad:
As a huge Redskins fan, maybe I’ve just seen too much of Dawkins, but I think he is lock after this year. The only reason he doesn’t get in is because of Ed Reed’s otherworldly play (and to a lesser extent Polamalu’s). This is the same problem Cris Carter and Tim Brown have being compared to Jerry Rice.
Dawkins is a seven time pro bowler and four time all pro. He is also the inspirational leader of a team that has played in five NFC Championship games. If for no other reason, Dawkins will be inducted as the symbol of the 00’s Eagles (which will in fact hurt McNabb’s chances). However, his play, in my opinion, is more than enough to get him to Canton.
As for Ty Law, I think he should be a 1 (which is why I created the third category), but I have a feeling that he is going to get lost in the heavy backlog of worthy DBs. Coming up are D. Sanders, Reed, Dawkins, A. Williams, Bailey, Lynch, and Polamalu. If he ever stayed healthy, Bob Sanders would also be in the way. Not to mention borderline guys like R. Barber and D. Woodson. Heck, some day the 80s/90s guys like Atwater, Minnifield, H. Dixon, A. Lewis, D. Cherry, K. Easley, etc. might be remembered as well.
Ty Law was the best player on the earlier Patroits teams (especially the 2001 team), but he is also going to be remembered as selfish and not a “team” (read “Belichick”) player. While I hope I’m wrong, I think Law will be overlooked.
Time to pop into the conversation. Lol!! Brad knows I don’t hold back on my opinion.
First statement is that Tim Brown was better than Cris Carter and will get into HOF 1st. Both are on the 90’s All-Decade Team. But before either get in they’ll have to wait for Jerry Rice’s day in the sun.
Now my opinion on last years nominees making it into the HOF this year.
C Dermontti Dawson not yet IMO. Several years away but will be the one center from predominately the 90’s to make it.
DE Richard Dent maybe but not likely this year.I hope he overcomes the lazy rap!!He was a beast but the naysayers will win out again.
G Russ Grimm no way, no how if I had a say. He keeps coming up mainly because of the All-Decade thing. That’s a bluepring but not a gaurentee. Sorry Justin. He didn’t make the the 75th Anniversary Team but your boy Jacoby did and I have no problem with him going into the HOF.
DT Cortez Kennedy not yet but might get their in 5-10 years. Not a sexy pick and a real tweener IMO.
DT John Randle – can’t deny for long with all those sacks from the DT position he’ll make it in a few years. They just put a Viking so who knows.
WR Andre Reed – Won’t make it s far- I think last year said a lot. Maybe way down the road. 0/7 is weak. He caught lots of short ones like Carter and Brown but IMO was better after the catch than Carter and Brown was the best. At some point all these dink pass WR’s become harder and harder to judge if they are great WR’s that are HOF worthy or just very good or average.
WR Cris Carter no,no,no,no and some more no. Lol!!Carter better quit whining or he’ll be a Bert Blyleven (great pitcher who the media doesn’t like) of football.
Seems like a Pro should be able to catch 5-7 yard passes in their sleep. Is the fact that Carter caught 122 passes in two straight seasons all that HOF worthy when he averaged 10.3 and 11.2 yards a catch in those years?? I’m not sure why Carter was critical. He’s going to make it, I think??? If you look in the history books 15.0 yds a catch is pretty average. Many of WR’s who we’re told are locks are ending around 13.5 yds a catch. That makes me think they caught a ton of dinks throughout their careers which is not impressive to me.
For example HOFer Paul Warfield averaged 20.1 over a 13 yr career. He had 7 straight years over 20 yards a catch. His best season he caught 50 for 1067 yds with a 21.3 yd avg and 12 TDs. He never had a season as a starter where he didn’t have a catch of at least 45 yds. And I’d bet the passes were nearly as long as the catches in most of the cases. They didn’t use him for a dink possession weapon. I’m just using him as an example of what it took to be a HOF WR in days gone by and I’m trying to figure out what it takes now stat wise and it’s really tough to judge.
I would be interested to know the lowest average per catch for WR in the HOF. Carter is at 12.6 which is around TE avg falling very near Tony Gonzalez at 11.9 and Shannon Sharpe at 12.3. I always considered that a WR should be a greater weapon. I guess our standard needs to change on what’s great for a WR. Or is this a fluke case? No one would doubt Jerry Rice’s greatness so maybe we should use him as some kind of standard because he was in one of these West Coast Offenses that typically use more short passes. For him 13.4 was a low year and 20.4 was a high. He played so long and ended with a 14.8 avg catch but during his PB years his avg was 15.7 over 11 years. When he was 40 he made the PB with 92 catches and 13.2 yds per catch. Maybe it’s unfair to judge with Rice’s greatness but I’m thinking to average at least 13.2 for a WR’s career is a reasonable expectation to be considered great. That’s 2.5 yards less than Rice did over a 11 year period. I think the judges are having a real difficulty with where Cris Carter’s greatness lies? 130 TDs is his only gaurentee IMO otherwise I never thought of him as a HOFer.
TE Shannon Sharpe awesome catch total,should get in this year IMO- why put off and seems like a good time.
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue maybe for kissing up reasons he gets far but likely a no for the HOF this year.
Notable First time eligibles:
RB Emmitt Smith done deal- won’t have to run to the HOF
WR Tim Brown no not this year. It’s Rice’s stage but he should get in before Carter. He was an excellent PR too!
WR Jerry Rice done deal – can have a dance competition with Smith on the HOF stage.Lol!!
Owner Art Modell – I’m just not feeling it at all!!!!!. Ralph Wilson did a lot WORK to make the AFL-NFL merger work. He deserved it. Other than be an owner forever and being selfish IMO by breaking the hearts of Cleveland fans by moving the team to Baltimore. I’m not sure what he’s done where he deserves it. Maybe charity work?? The Brown’s fans have never been the same IMO. They used to be some of the best and rowdiest ever. People will picket the HOF if he makes it in and it would seem awfully insensitive. I hope he doesn’t get to even the finalist part.
RB Terrell Davis no, I would like to see him in the HOF but his answer came for years to come last year.
This would be my somewhat educated list of nominees and the winners. It’s not a list I’ll put money on. :)
2010 “close but no cigar” Finalists
Retreads are:
DT Cortez Kennedy
DE Richard Dent
DT John Randle
WR Tim Brown
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue
WR Cris Carter
C Dermontti Dawson
New bloods are:
FS Steve Atwater
LG Steve Wisniewski
K Gary Anderson
And the 2010 Winners are: drum roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****CB Aeneas Williams*****
****RB Emmitt Smith*****
****WR Jerry Rice****
****LB/DE Kevin Greene***** if there’s justice!!
****TE Shannon Sharpe*****
One thing about the selection process is they need to get some of the dead wood out of the way and start considering some of the older guys again who IMO should be in the HOF like now. Guys like Cliff Branch, James Brooks and Lester Hayes who they put on the shelf plus many more. Everyone will be Seniors soon and at two a year and them picking well…, not the best to be judged on. It’s frustrating to see wasted picks like with Humphrey. Look at our Senior 2010 list of good candidates. It’s crazy!! They ought to be able to pick two locks IMO.
And does anyone know how many times will they repeat with a guy for example like Dent? Is there a limit of 3 or 4 times to the Top of list before someone says he we have lots of other guys it’s time for a new crack at someone? I noticed ZoneBlitz wasn’t very bold thinking that all the same dudes are going to return. Is that the way it usually goes where there’s a reluctance by the Committee to bring in new blood? I think about half should be gone for a while. I hope so anyway. That’s why I picked Greene. He should be picked soon IMO. He did his job like D. Thomas very great. I could argue he did it better. I remember when Greene he hit L.A. with a splash and was a terror and he didn’t even get recognized for a PB early on with some really big numbers. Teams hated to plan for that dude. He played like a crazy man with that hair hanging out everywhere.
One reminder- this is RB/RET Greg Pruitt’s last year of eligibility. He went to 5 pro-bowls who IMO belongs in the HOF. I hope someone pays attention to him!! Dammit!! Lol!! For those of us around in the mid-70’s he was a real sensation for the Browns returning kicks and than rushing for 3 straight 1,000 plus yd seasons and than becoming a very good third down back and than late in his career he returned to returning kicks and made the PB as a PR for the SB winning Raiders in 1983. How crazy is that? Old guys don’t want to go back to getting hit. The guy was fearless it would seem. He was a tremendous athelete at on 180lbs he was built like a little Mack Truck with speed. He reminded me a little of Walter Payton in his toughness and he had speed but didn’t have that top gear speed but he ha moves. He did it all. He also threw 6 TD passes in his career. He stat line is 5,672yds rushing, 27TDS, 4.7yds avg and 328 catches,3,069yds, 9.4yds a catch with 18 TDS. His passing was 8-19-182yds-6TDS and 2 ints. He returned one Punt and one Kick-off for a TD in his career. Including rushing, receiving, return yds and passing yards his total yards from scrimmade was 13,444. His one flaw was fumbles was a net 60 for his career which is high but he handled the ball a lot too. He ran really tough!! Who thinks they would want him in the HOF? He also did very good on the Wide World of Sports – The Superstars! some might remember that show.
Finally I’m taking a poll– First do you think Dan Marino should have a WR in the HOF?
If so which one: Nat Moore, Mark Duper, Mark Clayton, or Irving Fryar? Whomever ever pops up the most will be the one I push the hardest for.
Both Mark Bros. were only 5’9″ and neither weighed over a buck 85. My favorite is “Super” Duper the Dolphins all-time leader in receiving yds but Clayton got a couple more PB’s and is ahead in catches slightly and has more TDS with 83. I don’t know how the HOF could separate the two though, it’s like Swann and Stallworth. I wonder if the Mark Bros. could go into the HOF together. Now that’s a fantasy.Lol!!I always thought Miami’s recievers were slighted the attention they deserved. And it’s a crime the heart and soul of Miami’s receivers Nat Moore, only made one measley PB/AP. The same for RB Tony Nathan PB/AP who did it ALL with 3,500yds/16TDS/4.8yd avg in rushing and 3,500yds/16TDS/9.4yd avg in receiving and tremendous blocking and instrumental to the Fins going to two Super Bowls. Those really were teams of over achievers made better by their HOF Head Coach. Like I said before any Coach that can guide his team to the Super Bowl with David Woodley as the team’s QB is the greatest coach who ever lived. Lol!! Tony Nathan would be in the HOF if they could measure the heart of a player. I’m always good for some cornball. :) Can you tell I’m bias and believe they all deserve to be in HOF.
Realistically Fryar and maybe one other will make it someday if there’s any justice. They should remember their small stature and how athletic they were going for Marino’s jump balls and catching them in most cases. It was something to see!!
Next year I’ll be pushing hard for my Dolphins to reach Canton. One more tidbit, in 10 years that tough little booger Duper only fumbled the ball 4 times!!!!!!
Tony, great points. I will discuss my finalists for next season.
Finalists:
WR: Jerry Rice: Most catches, TD’s, yards, etc.
RB: Emmitt Smith: Most rushing yards, rushing TD’s. He has rings.
WR: Cris Carter: over 1,000 catches,130 receiving TD’s.
CB: Aeneas Williams: 2nd most Int TD’s. Most fumble recovery yards. 1990’s All Decade Team.
K: Gary Anderson: 2nd most points all time. Mr. Perfect.
DT: John Randle: 8 straight seasons with 10 sacks as a DT. Very impressive.
WR: Tim Brown: over 1,000 catches. 9 time Pro Bowler. over 19,000 total yards.
DE/LB: Kevin Greene: 160 sacks, 3rd all time. 3 safeties.
TE: Shannon Sharpe: Most catches, receiving yards and TD’s as a TE at the time of retirement.
DE: Richard Dent: Super Bowl MVP. over 130 sacks.
G: Russ Grimm
Owner:Art Modell
Class of 2010 HOF
WR: Jerry Rice
RB: Emmitt Smith
TE: Shannon Sharpe
DT: John Randle
LB: Kevin Greene
Tony and I agree, except on 2 things. He like Aeneas Williams, I like John Randle. Aeneas will definitely will make it in his second year. I don’t see him making it next year.
Tony, post the list that you are going to send.
Tony P – From my research, the only guy that didn’t make it from 2007 to 2008 was LC Greenwood (may have expired to the senior category?). The only guy who didn’t make it from 2008 to 2009 was Ray Guy. So that’s why I go with so many retreads on the finalists list.
Looking back, Gary Anderson should probably be a finalist this year–so put him on our list, and drop off…Modell. Him or Davis, I guess–although I tend to think to contributors make the finalist list.
I’m higher on Aeneas Williams than I was when I wrote this, and I guess having 3 first ballot guys get in happens more frequently than I thought. That being said, I still don’t know that I think he gets in this year. Part from playing in Arizona, and part from the voters possibly not wanting anyone to share the first time stage with Rice & Smith.
This is the list that I predict in 2010
1. Emmitt Smith RB
2. Jerry Rice WR
3. Dermonti Dawson C
4. Shannon Sharpe TE
5. Cortez Kennedy DT
6. Johnny Robinson DB
7. Chris Hanburger LB
Billy:
That is a good list for 2010. As I said on an old thread, I think this year’s non-senior inductees will be:
Rice
Smith
Kennedy
Sharpe
Grimm
I’m confident that Rice, Smith, and Sharpe are locks. Kennedy will have competition from many other defensive players, include Randle, Dent, and potentially someone like Charles Haley.
As for Grimm, it looks like it will come down to him or Dawson, as there is always one offensive lineman inducted. While I would personally vote for Jacoby over Grimm or Dawson, that is very unlikely to happen. In the end, either Grimm or Dawson would be a fine inductee.
Senior candidates are too difficult to predict. Although I am interested to see who the committee nominates. Only then can we disect whether those finalists deserve induction.
First, I have a hunch the voters will give up on Grimm based on last year’s discussions. Only 3 great years for any position is really weak. There are a ton of reat RB’s with 3 great years not in the HOF and their career expectancy is suppose to be short. Linemane are suppose to be more durable. I’m not trying to hate on the guy but I feel really strongly about who they let in. They should nominate another worthy OL candidate.
The best new blood OL nominee to replace Grimm is LG Steve Wisniewski 2/8/90’s-2001, 90’s All-Decade Player and I don’t believe he ever missed a game 206/206.
C- Dawson will get nominated again and IMO will make it this year or next. Waiting any longer would be sort of mean. Guys who’ll have are Joe Jacoby 80’s All-Decade and LT Richmond Webb an 90’s All-Decade. The LT line is will be getting real long soon. Tony Boselli won’t make it.
Tony, no thoughts on Pruitt ? Do guys have a good chance in their last year of eligibilty to get nominated?
I know!! When I saw Aeneas Williams’s stats I was blown away. I don’t think he would be showing up Rice if they pick him this year. Now Rice and Carter would be a show up, IMO. So you must agree with me that Cris Carter is a dog of a candidate. :)
Ray Guy could pop up a couple more times but I don’t think he will nor Russ Grimm, Andre Reed 0/7, or Terrell Davis.
Brad, ya Jim Turner kicked for a long time and I believe was a straight toed kicker which is tougher. I remember him with Denver.
May way of thinking was either Sharpe or Randle would make HOF. When I saw Williams I decided it was a 3 lock. Than I thought hard, and just couldn’t see them not voting Sharpe in this year.
So than it came down to looking at the sack list and a hunch. When it became a reality that Derrick Thomas would be picked and folks started talking more about Kevin Greene and the fact he really was great!! Leading the Steelers to a SB and than leading the upstart Panthers to the NFC Champ. Game. And wow, he had 160 sacks. Than recently I compared D. Thomaas’s stats (I know unfinished) but his stats to Kevin’s. IMO remembering back Kevin was every bit the player Thomas was. Greene didn’t get great pub for much of his earlier career buried with the Anahiem Rams. Bottom line , it’s a total wild guess but I say Greene needs to be in the HOF now!!! Randle was great but he can wait. If I was using my smarts I’d pick Randle. :)
Pruitt? Don’t remember him on the finalist list the last three years. If Keuch was a finalist the last three years and couldn’t get in, no way someone who isn’t even a finalist does.
I’m not sure Ray Guy even gets back in the discussion–wasn’t a finalist last year. Might be tough for him to make it. Which means no punters in the HOF. Ever.
I was surprised Carter didn’t get in this year. I could kind of see making him wait. But given some recent history, I thought maybe they would put two Vikings in this past year, and have the Vikings at the HOF Game. Now I think he’ll wait at least one more year, so as not to rain on Rice’s parade.
Between him and Brown, it’s a tossup in my opinion. Two different types of receivers, two different types of offenses played in. Similar catch numbers, Brown had better yardage, Carter more TDs. I could see them both getting in together, in 2011.
Wisniewski would be a good selection too. He did miss two games in his career, but both early on. I think Dawson stood out more, though, and Wisniewski hasn’t really been on the HOF radar, that I’ve seen, yet. Wasn’t even a semifinalist. I imagine the 2/8 doesn’t help, with guys like McDaniel (7/12) and Dawson (6/7) in the way.
Tony, the reason why Cris Carter didn’t get in this year is because Bob Hayes was on the final list. The reason why they picked Bob over Cris is because they were thinking Bob Hayes would never make the list ever again, and Cris Carter has many many years of eligibility. Cris Carter will probably make it in the next 2 or 3 years.
I think Tim Brown and Cris Carter will make the HOF eventually. Now, who goes first is a good question. Cris Carter has the TD’s and catches. Tim Brown has the yards and also he was an outstanding punt and kick returner. Tim Brown was a 9 time Pro Bowler and was never named to lst team All Pro. Cris Carter was a 8 time Pro Bowler and was a 2 time All Pro. If I was to choose right now, I would pick Cris Carter over Tim Brown because Cris Carter has been waiting longer than Tim has, and also Cris has 35 more TD’s than Tim Brown. Although Tim has 1 more Pro Bowl than Cris, Cris has 2 All Pros and Tim has none.
As for seen them both in the HOF in 2011 would be tough. The HOF voters, as you can see over the years, don’t like putting in 2 of the same position in the HOF.
As for Steve Wisniewski. He has good stats: 8 time Pro Bowler, 2 time All Pro. Only missed 2 games. He was loyal to 1 team in his career. He came from Penn State, which is an exllcent school. Anyway. But, even players like Bob Kuechenberg and Joe Jacoby aren’t in the HOF and they both have rings and Steve doesn’t. Bob has 2 with the Dolphins and Joe has 3 with the Redskins. It would be very tough for Steve to make the HOF.
James Brooks should be on the HOF list next year. He had 49 rushing TD’s and 30 receiving TD’s. He was a good kick and punt returner. He totaled nearly 15,000 all purpose yards. He also avg. 4.7 yards per rush.
Mark Clayton of the Miami Dolphins should be on the list next year. I know he is a 0/5, but he should had made first team All Pro in 1984 and 1988. This will not count for anything, but he was a good punt returner.
Now his counter partner, Mark Duper will be hard to put on the list because he only made the Pro Bowl 3 times. And also he only had 59 TD’s compared to Clayton’s 85 TD’s.
These players that I know of are eligible for the HOF in 2010 for the first time. There is probably a lot more:
QB: Rich Gannon
WR: Jerry Rice
WR: Tim Brown
RB: Emmitt Smith
RB: Garrison Hearst
LB: Jason Gildon
DB: Aeneas Williams
DB: Brock Marion
DB: Ray Buchanan
K: Gary Anderson
K: Steve Christie
What do you think about these players making the HOF someday:
Eric Allen: 6 time Pro Bowler, 1 time All Pro, 54 Int’s (18 all time), 8 Int TD’s. 4 Int TD’s in a season and 3 Int TD’s in a season. Over 800 tackles.
Richard Dent: 137.5 sacks (6th all time), Super Bowl MVP, 4 time Pro Bowler, 1 time All Pro. 37.5 sacks in his first seasons.
Cortez Kennedy: 8 time Pro Bowler, 3 time All Pro, Defensive player of the year in 1992.
Lomas Brown: 7 time Pro Bowler, 1 time All Pro. He played in 263 games (19th all time).
Ricky Watters: 5 time Pro Bowler, 10,643 rushing yards, 91 total TD’s, 5 seasons with at least 50 catches. He has a ring as a member of the 49ers.
Brad,
Rich Gannon HOVG at the end.
Garrison Hearst HOVG for longer. If he could of finished with a bang who knows. Always under appreciated.
Gary Anderson maybe but after Morten. Christie nope! There just won’t be many kickers. I still don’t know why Stenrud made over some others.
Gilden nope! Marion a really nice player but nope! Buchanan- a great player in some areas but IMO not a HOFer.
Lomas Brown nope!! I like him on ESPN!!
Watters, Kennedy, Dent and Allen are all deserving but on the fence sad to say.
Hey Tony,
Are you old enough to remember the players of the late 70’s well? If you do this is the last year of eligibilty for RB – Chuck Muncie. For most that purely look at stats they’d say what’s the big deal? But for those that got to see him he was really special. IMO he was a bigger and faster Chuck Foreman. I’d say outside of Walter Payton and Earl Campbell he was the top RB for a few year stretch and IMO my eyeball’s think he was a HOFer. Anyone out there remember how great those Chargers were on Offense from about 1978-1983? Somehow the Raiders would get the best of them though. Jim Plunkett doesn’t get the credit he deserves. And it’s a shame those great San Diego teams don’t have a SB to show for their greatness. Damn Cinncinati’s 15 below zero weather.
Tony P, the reason why I put Rich Gannon, Garrison Hearst, etc. on the list is because they are the only players I know that are eligible for the HOF next year. This would be there first year of eligibility.
As for Chuck Muncie. I never seen him play, but looking at his stats, he seemed like a great player. The positives are that he led the NFL in rushing TD’s in 1981 and he scored 74 total TD’s. The negatives are: He only had 2 seasons with 1,000 rushing yards. He only made the Pro Bowl 3 times and never made first team All Pro.
Now Chuck Foreman is more of a HOFer as far as stats goes in my opinion. Chuck Foreman was a 5 time Pro Bowler and a 1 time All Pro. He had 3 seasons with 1,000 rushing yards. He led the NFL in total TD’s 2 times. He led the NFL in the catches in 1975. He had 23 receiving TD’s, which is damn good for a RB.
I think the reason why Jim Plunkett doesn’t get the credit that he should get, is because he never Pro Bowled or made an All Pro team. I think the reason why he is on the list is because he was a Super Bowl MVP and comeback player of the year. He should at least get past the first round, but ever year he doesn’t.
What do you think about these players that are active? I will give you my opinion about there career and I will tell you if I think they will make the HOF:
QB: Drew Brees: I think if he were to retire right now, definitely no. But he is not going to retire anytime soon. He led the NFL in passing yards 2 times and passing TD’s 1 time. He had 5,069 passing yards last year. I think he is going to finish his career, if he stays healthy, around 40,000-45,000 passing yards.
QB: Kurt Warner: I think he is a HOF no doubt. The question is, is he a first ballot HOF? Right now, I don’t think he is a first ballot, but definitely a HOF. He has 2 NFL MVP’s, Super Bowl ring and MVP. He has the 3 highest Super Bowl passing yard games. He led the NFL in passing yards 1 time. He led the NFL is passing TD’s 2 times and led the NFL in completion percentage 3 times in a row.
C: Kevin Mawae: I think down the road, he will make the HOF, but not right away. he was a 7 time Pro Bowler, 3 time All Pro. He started 177 games in a row. He made 6 straight Pro Bowls.
Does anybody think Brian Dawkins gets in the HOF? I don’t think he will get in the HOF right now because compare his Int total to other safeties like Ronnie Lott, Larry Wilson, Rod Woodson, Paul Krause, etc.
He only scored 3 non-offensive TD’s. Here is a list of Defensive Backs in general who have more than him and who are not in the HOF. Some are active: Deion Sanders, Lemar Parrish, Aeneas Williams, Ronde Barber, Speedy Duncan, Darren Sharper, LeRoy Irvin, Ed Reed, Eric Allen, Aaron Glenn, Chris Dishman, Nate Clements, Terrell Buckley , Philip Buchanon, Dre’ Bly, and a lot more.
This is what is going to help him for the HOF: He is a 7 time Pro Bowler, and 4 time All Pro. He has over 800 tackles. He has 21.0 sacks as a DB. He just signed a 5 year deal with the Broncos, so he is going to keep on playing. He forced 32 fumbles.
This is what is going to hurt him for the HOF: He doesn’t have a good amount of Int’s. He barely scored on defense. He doesn’t have a ring. The most Int’s he had in a season was 4. He only had 2 Int’s in the last 2 seasons.
If I was to pick right now, who goes in the HOF first, between Brian Dawkins or Darren Sharper, I would choose Darren Sharper.
I think Brian will be in the HOF, if he plays the full 5 year contract, than he could be a lock. But I don’t get what all the fuss is about how great of a safety he is. He is kind of like John Lynch in a way.
But I would rather put in Brian Dawkins over John Lynch. Because John Lynch only had 26 Int’s compared to Brian Dawkin’s 34 Int’s. And also Brian Dawkins was a 4 time All Pro, John Lynch was a 2 time All Pro.
But John Lynch, in my book, will get in someday. After all, he Pro Bowled 9 times. And he has a ring. And has over 1,000 tackles. And according to NFL films, John Lynch is the 10th most feared tackler in NFL history. That says a lot! That has HOF written all over it.
What is going to hurt John Lynch is that he never scored in the NFL. If he had something like 4 Int’s TD’s and like 2 fumble recovery TD’s, than he would be a first ballot HOF hands down.
Someone get back to me on this, because I am curious on what other people think about both, John Lynch and Brain Dawkins.
I think Dawkins is/was clearly a better safety than John Lynch (and most of the players on your list), and should be an easy pick for the HOF.
Lynch played with Derrick Brooks, one of the best linebackers of all time and a certain HOFer, and Warren Sapp, another strong candidate for Canton.
Dawkins played with several very good defenders, but certainly no future HOFers. He was also clearly the best player on the late 90s-200os Eagles’ defense, teams that went to five NFC championship games. In fact, he might have been the best and most consistent player on the entire team.
As for stats, this is not baseball. Stats cannot tell the whole story in football. Sometimes players get INTs because quarterbacks are willing to challenge them. Sometimes the INTs come because the player gambles too much. In the end, they should be used as only one component to judge a player’s career. In the end, Dawkins should get huge consideration, as Art Monk and Harry Carson did, for being the heart and soul of a team that consistently won during his time there.
I also don’t put too much stock into “who has a ring” and who doesn’t. With 32 teams (compared to 26 in the 1970s) and free agency, the best players are more spread out throughout the league than they use to be. Look at this year’s class: Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas, and Randall McDaniel never won a championship. And Rod Woodson only won with the Ravens at the end of his career, long after he was a certain HOFer (he was on the 75th Anniversary team as a Steeler). Other recent examples include Thurman Thomas, Andre Tippett, Bruce Matthews, Roger Wehrli, etc. If anything, players that play for championship teams are OVER represented in Canton (Swann, Stallworth, Buoniconti). Other “non-champioship” guys that should receive strong consideration in the future are (off the top of my head) Aeneas Williams, Cortez Kennedy, Cris Carter, Dermontti Dawson, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Tim Brown, and Junior Seau!
As a Redskin fan, I’ve seen Dawkins make far, far too many game altering plays, whether or not he “took it to the house.” Dawkins has had more than his share of huge sacks, forced fumbles, INTs, passes defended.
In my opinion, there are only two reasons that Dawkins might not make the HOF: Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu. Those two guys are playing at unprecedented levels and it might overshadow their contemporaries. In fact, if they continue at their current levels, Ronnie Lott will quickly become the THIRD best safety of all time.
Justin, I agree with on that Brian Dawkins is better than John Lynch, but not by that much. Now if Dawkins puts up at least ok stats with the Broncos, than he is a first ballot HOFer.
Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas, and Randall McDaniel never won a Super Bowl. Thats correct. Lets look at the careers of these players.
Bruce Smith: 200 sacks, NFL record. Over 1,000 tackles. 13 seasons with 10 plus sacks. 2 time Defensive Player of The Year. 11 time Pro Bowler, and 8 time All Pro. Over 250 games played. It’s safe to say that Bruce Smith never needed a ring to get in the HOF.
Derrick Thomas: 125.5 sacks. He had more sacks in the 1990’s than any other player. 3 safeties. 4 fumble recovery TD’s. 41 forced fumbles. 8 time Pro Bowler, 2 time All Pro.
Randall McDaniel: 12 time Pro Bowler, 7 time All Pro. He started 202 games in a row.
What I think your trying to say is that players don’t need rings to determine if they are a HOFer. That’s true, but would you rather put in a player who doesn’t have a ring over a player who does? I mean, I would put Dawkins over Lynch because Dawkin’s stats are so much better. I’m a Jets fan, and so I see Dawkins twice a year because on T.V. they play Giants and Jets games, so I see the Eagles. As much as I am a hardcore Jets fan, I would put Marshall Faulk over Curtis Martin because Marshall has a ring. And also Marshall has a lot of catches.
Lets look at the other players career’s that you mentioned.
Thurman Thomas: 5 time Pro Bowler, 2 time All Pro. Led the NFL in yards from scrimmage 4 years in a row! He had 23 receiving TD’s as a running back. That is so good. 8 seasons with 1,000 rushing yards. He needed a ring to be a first ballot HOFer. A ring would have helped him a lot.
Bruce Matthews: 14 time Pro Bowler and 7 time All Pro. That’s all you to hear because that has first ballot written all over it.
Roger Wehrli: 7 time Pro Bowler and 3 time All Pro. He played in a decade of great DB’s such as: Mel Blount, Paul Krause, Donnie Shell, Lem Barney, etc. Those players would always go All Pro, so it would be hard for him to All Pro and Pro Bowl.
Brad:
I agree that Marshall Faulk should go in the Hall of Fame before Curtis Martin, but his championship ring has nothing to do with it. He was simply a much better player (far more dynamic, homerun threat, the best “all-around” running back since at least Walter Payton). His ring however has as much to do with playing with Kurt Warner, Tory Holt, Orlando Pace, and Issac Bruce has it has to do with his ability. Similarly, John Lynch’s ring was a team accomplishment (that he certainly contributed to) and doesn’t give him a leg up (in my opinion) over other players with similar or better accomplishments.
Deion Sanders: If you think Neon Deion is a borderline 1st ballot HOFer, think again. Deion was a 8 time Pro Bowler, 6 time All Pro. He has 53 Int’s, 9 Int’s TD’s (2nd all time). 6 punt return TD’s, 3 kick return TD’s. 3 way player ( DB, Returner, and WR). In 1996, he filled in as WR for Michael Irvin. Deion had 2 Int’s on defensive and he had 36 catches for 475 yards, 1 receiving TD that season. He scored 19 non-offensive TD’s (NFL record). 2 rings.
Rodney Harrison- Rodney could be a first ballot HOFer or never be a HOFer. He is what is going to help him: Only player in NFL history with 30 sacks and 30 Int’s. 1,205 tackles. 2 rings. In the 2004-2005 playoffs, he had 3 Int’s in 3 games. Here is what is going to keep him out of Canton: He used HGH. He has the most personal foul penalties in NFL history. Do I think he will make the HOF: Yes I do. First Ballot: Probably not.
Here is some players that are active and not active that could be first ballot HOFers if they cont. playing at the level they are playing:
LB: Patrick Willis
DB: Troy Polamalu
LB: DeMarcus Ware
DB: Brain Dawkins
DE: Jason Taylor
RB: Edgerrin James( If he plays 2 or more seasons with at least 700 rushing yards per year)
De: Michael Strahan
The players below are players that maybe HOFers and players that might just make the ballot at least:
Offense
QB: Mark Brunell
QB: Drew Brees
QB: Vinny Testaverde
QB: Drew Bledsoe
QB: Rich Gannon
QB: Jake Plummer
QB: Jeff Garcia
RB: Garrison Hearst
RB: Ricky Williams
RB: Warrick Dunn
RB: Fred Taylor
RB: Jamal Lewis
RB: RB: Tiki Barber
RB: Shaun Alexander
RB: Priest Holmes
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Jimmy Smith
WR: Irving Fryar
WR: Rod Smith
WR: Derrick Mason
WR: Hines Ward
WR: Andre Reed
TE: Antonino Gates
TE: Chris Cooley
TE: Jason Witten
Defensive
DE: Jason Taylor
DE: Chris Doleman
DE: Richard Dent
DE: Leslie O’Neal
DT: Warren Sapp
DT: John Randle
DT: Bryant Young
LB: Kevin Greene
LB: Jessie Tuggle
LB: Hardy Nickerson
LB: Derrick Brooks
DB: Ronde Barber
DB: Steve Atwater
DB: Eric Allen
DB: Ty Law
DB: Champ Bailey
DB: Darren Sharper
DB: Aaron Glenn
DB: Charles Woodson
Special Teams
K: Morten Anderson
K: Gary Anderson
K: John Carney
K: Matt Stover
K: Jason Elam
K: Jason Hanson
K: Adam Vinatieri
P: Ray Guy
P: Reggie Roby
P: Jeff Feagles
If Gary Anderson either gets in this year or next year, I think Morten Anderson should get in first ballot. Here are reasons why:
First of all, he is a 7 time Pro Bowler and 3 time All Pro. He has 2,544 points NFL record. He played in 382 games, NFL record. He is a member of the 1980’s Decade team and 1990’s Decade Team.
Here is a list of players who retired in 2007 that I know of, who has a slight shot at making the HOF:
Offense
QB: Vinny Testaverde
QB: Steve McNair
RB: Priest Holmes
WR: Keenan McCardell (probably not)
Defense
DE: Michael Strahan
DE: Simeon Rice (If he is really retired)
DT: Warren Sapp
DT: Bryant Young
LB: Chad Brown (Probably not)
Special Teams
K: Jeff Wilkins (maybe)
P: Todd Sauerbrun (Probably not)
As you can see, there really isn’t that much talent. I mean Strahan will probably be a first ballot HOFer. So that leaves 4 spots. Morten Anderson, I think, has a good chance on making it first ballot. I think Vinny could in fact make it past first round and that’s it.
I know special teamers don’t get as much apperication as offensive and defensive players do. But, if you look at Jan Stenerud. He was a first ballot HOFer. Jan was a 6 time Pro Bowler as was 1 time All Pro. Morten was a 7 time Pro Bowler and 3 time All Pro. Morten has a better field goal percenrage than Jan. I think Morten should be a first Ballot HOFer. What do you other people think about this topic?
Brad wrote: “Well, Jan Stenerud was a first ballot, wasn’t he? His field goal percentage is a dismal 66.8%. Gary Anderson has a 80.1 field goal percentage.”
There’s a problem with this comparison, as Stenerud and Anderson played in different eras; their careers overlapped by only a couple years. Stenerud’s 66.8% was excellent for his time, and yes, he was a first ballot selection.
Does Anderson get elected in? Hard to say. Special team players often get short shrift, and if the HoF voters were on top of things, they’d have already elected Nick Lowery by now. It’s possible that he and Morten Andersen both get elected, M.A. only gets elected, or neither gets elected. In any event, I’d be surprised if either kicker gets in on their first try.
I know I talk a lot on this, but I have lots of comments on the topic. This year’s HOF and next year’s HOF is important for special teamers. If Gary Anderson gets in this year or next year, than more and more kickers, in my opinion, will get in. If Gary gets in this year or next year, Morten would be a first ballot HOFer, Adam Vinatieri’s stock will be going up a lot, and open up the door for kickers like: John Carney, Matt Stover, Jason Elam, and Jason Hanson.
And also, I believe this is Ray Guy’s last year on the ballot. If he makes it in this year, than it will help Reggie Roby and Jeff Feagles for the HOF. Also, look out for Shane Lechler. He is a 4 time Pro Bowler, and 4 time All Pro. He is only 32 years old. That’s pretty young for a punter.
Brad asked: “What is our feelings about Kevin Greene, John Randle, and Chris Doleman?”
I think Randle gets in after a few years wait. He was crummy against the run, which will be no small part of this delay, but a postseason profile of 6/7/90s for a DT and a load of sacks at this position will be hard to deny.
Doleman may or may not make it in. He’s behind Reggie White and Bruce Smith plus he stunk against the run, though his 2/8/90s profile and large number of sacks is an asset. Given that Neil Smith likely doesn’t make it in at all, the question will be whether they see Doleman as above or below the cutoff point at this position. My guess is that he gets in but very late in his eligibility.
If another LB who primarily played in the ’90s breaks the logjam at this position, it’ll probably be Greene. His 2/5/90s profile and huge number of sacks will likely be enough, but like Doleman, I think he gets in late in his candidacy. Judging from how the logjam LB group has done in semi-finalist voting luck, am thinking the HoF pecking order for this era’s LBs will be Greene, Charles Haley (2/5/none), and Rickey Jackson (0/6/none).
Justin said: “Ty Law was the best player on the earlier Patroits teams (especially the 2001 team), but he is also going to be remembered as selfish and not a “team” (read “Belichick”) player. While I hope I’m wrong, I think Law will be overlooked.”
I agree that Law will likely be overlooked, but I’m thinking it’s because he won’t distinguish himself above the pack. Champ Bailey (3/8/probably 00s, also some KR) will likely be seen as the best CB from the ’00s and I think is by far the most likely CB from this era to get elected. Law’s profile is at 2/5/likely 00s, which isn’t too far from Ronde Barber (3/5/likely 00s), Charles Woodson (1/5/maybe 00s), and Troy Vincent (1/5/who knows). Could be a logjam here.
Besides, one might argue that the most decorated defensive player from those NE Pats defenses will have the best chance of HoF election, and that’s Richard Seymour (3/5/probably 00s).
And a few more reactions.
1. If any safeties get elected from the 90s, they will at this point probably be John Lynch (2/9/likely 90s) and Brian Dawkins (4/7/likely 90s). Am thinking it’s still a little early to tell for Troy Polamalu (2/5/maybe 00s) and Ed Reed (4/5/likely 00s) — the problem with Polamalu is that he has a history of multiple concussions, and that could stop his career dead without warning. But note that safeties tend to get short shrift in HoF voting, so who knows?
2. Steve Wisniewski’s 2/8/90s isn’t a bad profile at all, though am wondering if his severe reputation for flagrantly dirty play may keep him out. A more substantial postseason profile might have overcome this, but I’m not so sure here.
3. and yeah, anyone who thinks Deion Sanders isn’t getting in the HoF on his first try isn’t looking that closely. 6/8/90s profile, terrific KR numbers, and a reputation as one of the two best cover corners ever (Jimmy Johnson being the other) says yes. Sure, he wasn’t much of a tackler, but then again with his coverage ability, when did QBs throw in his direction anyway?
Bachslunch, do you agree with me on saying this: If any kicker(s) make the HOF right now, it would be Morten Anderson, Gary Anderson, and Adam Vinatieri.
I agree with you on Nick Lowery. Nick was an outstanding kicker. Led the NFL in field goal percentage 3 times.
I think Ed Reed is a HOFer. As long as he plays another 2 good years, than he could in fact be a first ballot HOFer.
As for Troy Polamalu. I think he is on the path to being a HOFer. He already has 2 rings. He is a 5 time Pro Bowler and 2 time All Pro. The only thing he is lacking is Int’s, but everything else is great
Ty Law, in my opinion, has HOF stats: 52 Int’s, 7 Int TD’s. Led the NFL in Int’s 2 times. He has over 800 tackles. He has 3 rings. But, Champ is going to get in first.
Brad, am thinking that if only one PK gets in the HoF, it will probably be Morten Andersen, and add Gary Anderson if it’s two. I still think it’s just too early to say on Adam Vinateri, but if he finishes at the top of the heap in counting numbers on retirement, he’s got a reasonably good shot. But of course the HoF voters don’t seem positively disposed towards special teams players, generally speaking.
Regarding the safeties, it’s really hard to say. Given that no DB who played almost exclusively at safety since Ken Houston (retired 1980) has been elected and only one since then has ever been a finalist (Donnie Shell once in 2002, and a shutout for the likes of Kenny Easley, Joey Browner, Deron Cherry, Nolan Cromwell, Steve Atwater, Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, and Darren Woodson so far), it wouldn’t entirely surprise me to see no safety from the 00s crop get elected. Right now, I’d handicap Ed Reed behind John Lynch and Brian Dawkins in HoF election chances (in part because we’ve got a full picture of Lynch’s and Dawkins’s careers), though it’s still a bit early to say on Reed. I can’t see Troy Polamalu getting in as well right now unless he can sustain a longer run of postseason honors that at least equals Reed’s. And right now, I think the chances are we’ll see dinosaurs walking the earth again before we see four safeties from the same decade get in the HoF — the committee voting patterns just don’t favor it.
Bachslunch, it really just basically hit me today for some reason. I realized there is only 1 pure kicker in the HOF. Lou Groza doesn’t count as a pure kicker to me, because he was also a great lineman as well. Jan Stenerud is the only pure kicker in. Jan, in my opinion, shouldn’t of been a first ballot HOFer. Yes his stats are good: 6 time Pro Bowler and 1 time All Pro. he actually made 10 All Pro teams. He was accurate for his time. He led the league in field goal percentage 4 times. But, going in first ballot as a kicker; I would rather put in a player who plays more than 5 or 6 times a game. He also has a ring, which I think is important now a days for any position.
Morten Anderson, I think was great. He was a 3/7. Damn good for a kicker. I think he will make the HOF someday. He has the most points all time. Most field goals made and attempted.
As for Gary Anderson. To be honest, I think it will be hard for him to make it. If there was like 3 or more pure kickers in the HOF, than Morten Anderson, Gary Anderson, and Adam Vinatieri will be going in. But, there is only 1 in. He has the points, but it don’t think thats enough.
Adam Vintieri, is on the right path in my mind. His points will come. I think he needs at least 1,900 points. He has 4 rings. 2 game winning field goals in the Super Bowl. He has the most post season field goals made in a career (40). Most points in the post season for a career (167). Most field goals in a post season (14). Most extra points made in the Super Bowl for a career (13). Most points in a single post season (49). Most field goals made in a playoff game (5). If he can seek out 1 more ring, than Canton will have 2 pure kickers in the HOF.
As for the safeties. Donnie Shell, I think, should be in. He has 51 Int’s. He is a 3/5. He has 4 rings. He stats aren’t very flashy, but he was a part of the great steeler defense in the 1970’s.
Kenny Easley was good his entire career. But, his career was ended sadly by a kidney disease. He reminds me of Sterling Sharpe. Sterling, if he didn’t get hurt, would have been in Canton already. It’s tough to put in players who played great, but only for 7 years. I don’t know if you follow baseball or not, but Kirby Puckett was the same. He played great in the MLB, but he had a stroke and sadly he died. They put him in the HOF first ballot, because he played so well in the time he played. But, in the NFL, the voters don’t go by that.
Joey Browner was good, but not HOF. He was a 3/6. Thats good, but his Int total of 37 is keeping him out. If he played another 3 seasons, than maybe.
Deron Cherry was great. He was a 3/6, just like Joey Browner, but Deron has 50 Int’s. Deron had 5 seasons with at least 7 Int’s. But his Int TD total is killing him (1).
Im not that familiar with Nolan Cromwell. Looking at his stats, he was pretty good. He was a 3/4. I think he needed to
Pro Bowl like 2 more times.
Steve Atwater, I think should be in the HOF. He was a 2/8. He had 6 seasons with at least 100 tackles. 3 seasons with at least 150 tackles. A very hard hitter. I think he is not in because of his Int total.
Leroy Butler was good. he was a 4/4. He had all most 900 tackles. He was a great blitzing safety. He has a ring.
Carnell Lake was good. He was a 1/5. His sack total is great for a safety, but Int total isn’t that good.
Darren Woodson was great. He was a 3/5. He was a hard hitter. He has 3 rings with the Dallas Cowboys. Not a HOFer right now.
John Lynch was terrific. He was a 2/9. He has over 1,000 tackles. He has a ring. A hard hitter. I think he will make the HOF.
As for the active players:
Ed Reed is great. And when I say great, I mean GREAT. He is a 4/5. He led the NFL in Int’s 2 times. He has the longest and second longest Int’s. Has can block punts and return punts pretty well. He will get in.
Troy Polamalu is great as well. He is a 2/5. 2 rings. Hard hitter. He needs to get his Int total up.
Brian Dawkins was good. He is 4/7. But, He needs to play like 2 more good years. Than I will put him in, no doubt.
Speaking of Safeties whats your feelings on Darren Sharper?
Bachslunch:
Safety play has vastly changed in the last 5-10 years in the NFL. Just as A-Rod, Jeter, and Nomar changed the way shortstops are evaluated (vastly more power is expected), Darren Woodson, Ed Reed, Polamalu, Dawkins, Bob Sanders, and even Sean Taylor changed the way safeties are considered in the NFL. Teams are now drafting safeties in top five picks (unheard of ten years ago). Safeties are no longer converted corners who have slowed down, they are now the quarterback of many defenses that are asked to both support the run and create turnovers. Obviously, not all NFL safeties are able to do the things that this new bread does. Many teams still have traditional safeties. But watching Reed (especially), Polamalu, and Sanders, it is clear they ar playing the positions differently than the players we grew up with. They are all over the field and they are given the freedom to make game altering plays.
Given this new reality, I actually thing that many, many more safeties will be making the HOF in the coming years. Interesting, as safety increases in importance, there are other positions that are being de-emphasied in the modern game. With the proliferation of two-back systems, running backs are being more expendable. With the continued shift to cover-two systems, corner backs (expecially so-called “shut down” corners) are far less important.
In effect, the game changes substanticially with time. And, while prior voting patterns are great indicators for many positions (QB, lineman, DEs), I’m not sure they will hold for others–i.e., safeties will increase, wide receivers will increase (at least they should), a tightend (Tony Gonzalez) might actually get elected on the first ballot.
Justin, Tony Gonzalez, stat wise, is a first ballot HOFer. Now, Shannon Sharpe in his time, was the best receiving TE of all time. He has 3 rings. Tony has 0. I don’t know if the voters in the last HOF class, realized that Shannon had 3 rings. I think he should make it this year. And Tony will get in on his first try.
Brad:
I agree that Sharpe is a future HOFer and was a strong candidate to be a first ballot HOFer. You don’t need to convince me.
However, I continue to find you citation of championships misplaced, and Shannon Sharpe’s “three rings” are a prime example. As I pointed out above, I believe a player’s championships, while certainly important, is not a primary statistic that HOF voters look at. The HOF is the ultimate individual award, while championships are the ultimate team accomplishment. Randall McDandiel, Bruce Smith, and Derrick Thomas are no less qualified for the HOF because their teams failed to win a championship. Similarly not all star players on multi-championship teams, guys like Jim Plunkett, Roger Craig, Donnie Shell and Jay Novachek, necessarily deserve induction.
In the end, Shannon Sharpe, the best statistical tightend at the time of his retirement, was not a first ballot HOF. This is probably because many selectors believe he was essentially a wide receiver with very little blocking duties. Nevertheless, those selectors certainly realized he had three rings. If they didn’t, then they shouldn’t be selectors. More likely, his championships and statistics weren’t enough to overcome a very strong returning class (Randall McDaniel, Derrick Thomas), two all-time defensive players (Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson) and the sentimental pick (Ralph Wilson).
Just as Shannon Sharpe will again be a strong candidate next year, Tony Gonzalez will be a strong candidate for induction and potentially a first ballot guy, even if he never wins a championship.
Justin, I’m just saying that rings can help. A player like Randall McDaniel didn’t need a ring to get in the HOF. He was a 7/12. Bruce Smith doesn’t need one because he has 200 sacks. But, players like Lynn Swann, Bart Starr, and Roger Staubach have rings. Lynn Swann would have never been a HOFer if he didn’t have 4 rings and a Super Bowl MVP. He was a 1/3 and never had a season with more than 61 catches. Bart Star was a good QB, don’t get me wrong, but without the 2 rings and 2 Super Bowl MVP’s, he probably wouldn’t of made the HOF. Roger Staubach was a 0/6. Ok, that’s good, but if he didn’t have 2 Super Bowl MVP’s, he probably wouldn’t of been a HOF. I’m not trying to saying that rings are everything. If I did, than I apologize. I’m just saying rings help.
Re “rings” or “championships:” they do matter in certain circumstances but in very limited ways. They can indeed elevate “Hall of the Very Good” QBs (Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Bobby Layne, for example), and the more they have, usually the more the boost. But there are only two non-QB “HotVG” players for whom that seems to have made a difference, Paul Hornung and Lynn Swann. I think they’re pretty much outliers, and in both cases they were skill position guys — plus it’s telling that both waited forever before being elected. And there are limits to how much of a boost even QBs get from rings (Jim Plunkett is exhibit A).
Re safeties and larger numbers being voted into the HoF. Maybe there will be a major change in how voters see players at this position in future. Maybe not. If it happens, it will run 180 degrees counter to how voting patterns have run in past. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Also, it’s unwise to base HoF consideration on tackle numbers, as they are notoriously unreliable and routinely inflated. I’m also less taken with defensive stats (like INTs and sacks) in general for HoF worth consideration unless they’re bolstered by decent to excellent all-pro/pro bowl honor stats — there are too many things behind the numbers to make them meaningful in an absolute way. I’m more comfortable with offensive skill numbers in this regard, but again context is important here.
Brad:
Just a minor pet peev of mine. Bart Starr has five championships, not two. Three of them, 1961, 1962, and 1965, just happened to occur before the Super Bowls were initiated.
Ok, my bad.
Plus, there weren’t as many teams in the NFL at that point. So, it is easier to win the Championship. That’s just my opinion.
Here is my list of players who should be in the HOF. I’m not going to name players like Cris Carter because they will get in. I’m naming players who are not going to be eligible in like 1 year or so. And I going to name players who are not eligible anymore:
Offense
QB: John Brodie
QB: John Hadl (the only thing I have against him is he threw 268 Int’s. Other than that, he was good).
RB: Don Perkins
RB: Floyd Little
WR: Art Powell
WR: Gary Collins
OG: Jerry Kramer
C: Mick Tingelhoff
OT: George Kunz
OT: Winston Hill
Defense
DE: Jim Marshall
DE: L.C. Greenwood
LB: Randy Gardishar
LB: Tommy Nobis
DB: Erich Barnes
DB: Lemar Parrish
Special Teams
P: Gay Guy
Brad, am looking at your list. There are a few folks I think are legit HoF-ers, especially Mick Tingelhoff and Lemar Parrish, and likely Jerry Kramer, Floyd Little, and Randy Gradishar. The problem I have with several other of your choices, all of whom are certainly Hall of the Very Good at least, are that they either:
1. seem to fall at a pretty clear cutoff point. Take George Kunz, who will likely be the best 70s OT not in the HoF. Given that four of his contemporaries are in (Rayfield Wright, Dan Dierdorf, Art Shell, and Ron Yary) and the HoF voters haven’t seen fit to put in more than 4 OTs from any decade that I can see, am thinking his chances are nil. Other folks who might fall in this category include Don Perkins, Gary Collins, and Winston Hill. But you’re right that Perkins and Collins, for example, are loads better than many folks remember.
2. aren’t necessarily any better (and may be arguably less deserving) than other players at their position in their era. Art Powell is a good example — no question he’s one of the AFL’s first-rate WRs, but how much better was he than Lionel Taylor? Or why Jim Marshall and L.C. Greenwood over Claude Humphrey, who was just turned down? Or Tommy Nobis over a host of LBs, including Chris Hanburger and Maxie Baughan and Robert Brazile and Gradishar and several others. Or Erich Barnes over Abe Woodson or Jimmy Patton or Bobby Dillon or Johnny Robinson? Or John Hadl and John Brodie over Charlie Conerley or Jack Kemp or Darryl Lamonica — especially given that QB is the most over-represented position in the PFHoF?
And as for your punter listed above:
P: Gay Guy [sic]
well, can’t say I see a HoF case for him, but at least it appears he’s not living a lie or anything.
Bachslunch, I agree with you. But, Jack Kemp was good, but threw a lot more Int’s than TD’s.
Here is a list of players who be a finalist and players who can maybe be a finalist:
Offense
RB: Emmitt Smith
RB: Roger Craig
RB: Terrell Davis
WR: Jerry Rice
WR: Andre Reed
WR: Cris Carter
WR: Tim Brown
TE: Shannon Sharpe
C: Dermontti Dawson
OG: Steve Wisniewski
Defense
DE: Chris Doleman
DE: Richard Dent
DT: Cortez Kennedy
DT: John Randle
DB: Eric Allen
DB: Aeneas Williams
Special Teams
P: Ray Guy (maybe)
Looking ahead at the other HOF nominees:
2011
RB: Curtis Martin
RB: Marshall Faulk
RB: Jerome Bettis
WR: Jimmy Smith
Defense
DB: Deion Sanders
Special Teams
P: Sean Landeta
P; Bryan Barker
This is really random, but look at the stats of Otto Schnellbacher. He could have been a first ballot HOFer. He played from 1948-1951. He had 2 season with 11 Int’s. 1 season with 8 Int’s.
Here is a list of WR’s who will make the HOF. I will put a couple of stats that will put them is the HOF:
Jerry Rice (1,549 receptions, 197 receiving TD’s)
Cris Carter ( 1,101 receptions, 130 receiving TD’s)
Tim Brown ( 14,934 receiving yards, 19,679 total yards)
Marvin Harrison 1,102 receptions, 4 seasons with 100 plus receptions)
Terrell Owens ( 139 receiving TD’s, 5/6 (All Pros/Pro Bowls)
Randy Moss ( 135 receiving TD’s)
The list above is a list mix of players that are active and retired. Now, here is a list of players who you can call “The Best Of The Rest”:
Andre Reed
Keyshawn Johnson
Jimmy Smith
Rod Smith
Keenan McCardell
Torry Holt
Irving Fryar
Muhsin Muhammad
Hines Ward ( I couldn’t put him in the list of players who will make the HOF, but he has a good chance)
Derrick Mason
Henry Ellard
Chad Johnson
I think it is hard to make the HOF as a WR now a days. Here is the line for WR’s going in the HOF in my opinion:
1. Jerry Rice
2. Cris Carter
3. Tim Brown
4. Andre Reed
5. Jimmy Smith
6. Irving Fryar
The line for the HOF above is totally off. My bad.
How do you feel of these players for the HOF. I will put my answers right next to the players:
QB: Kurt Warner (yes)
QB: Vinny Testverde (maybe)
QB: Drew Bledsoe (maybe)
RB: Tiki Barber (no)
RB: Edgerrin James (maybe)
WR: Tim Brown (yes)
WR: Andre Reed (maybe)
OT: Willie Roaf (yes)
OG: Alan Fancea (yes)
OG: Ruben Brown (yes)
C: Kevin Mawae (yes)
Here are just some names for the 2012 HOF
Will Shields
Troy Vincent
Chris Gardocki
2012 HOF
Morten Anderson
Ted Washington
Vinny Testaverde
John Lynch
Michael Strahan
Keenan McCardell
Sam Adams
Warren Sapp
Boomer Esiason former QB for the cincinnati bengals had more yards, touchdowns, and completion than Hall of Fame QB such as, Jim Kelley, Steve Young, and
Troy Aikman. He is not in the hall of Fame why. It can’t be becuse he didn’t win a super bowl because, we all know Jim Kelley lost FOUR of them.
Well, Boomer has a record of 80-93 as a starter. Where as Aikman: 94-71, Steve Young: 94-49. Jim Kelly: 101-59.
Boomer has never led the NFL in any stat, expect Int’s.
Boomer never won a SB.
And the reason why Boomer has more TD’s, yards, and comp. than Jim, is b/c he played more games.
Brad,
Boomer was the 1988 NFL MVP. That year he was 1st in passer rating at 97.4 . He also led the NFL in 3 somewhat obscure categories during his career.
As far as his winning record – Bengals, Jets, and Cardinals :) He didn’t have the advantage of playing for historically winning organizations. Especially during the time period of his career. What he did in 1988 leading Cinncy to the SB was one of the best years for excitement in NFL history IMO. They had a great team that year. Cinncy really deserved to beat the mighty 49ers in the SB but Joe “Cool” pulled a rabbit out of his hat and his legend was cemented forever.
I wouldn’t argue against Boomer’s election. He was a great QB.
But Boomer is only a 1/4.Never won a SB. And I know what your going to say: But Jim Kelly won a SB. Jim Kelly went to 4 SB’s. I would rather be in 4 SB’s than 1. And Kian was comparing Steve Young and Troy Aikman to Boomer. Lets see:
Boomer Esiason: Regular Season stats: 1/4. 37,920 passing yards, 247 Passing TD’s, 184 Int’s. 1,598 rushing yards, 7 rushing TD’s. Other Stats: 1988 NFL MVP. 0-1 in the SB. 3-1 in the postseason.
Steve Young: Regular Season stats: 3/7. 33,124 passing yards 232 passing TD’s, 107 Int’s.(keep in mind, he backed up Joe Montana for 4 seasons). 4,239 rushing yards, 43 rushing TD’s. Other Stats: 1992 NFL MVP and 1994 NFL MVP. SB MVP. 16-4 as a starter in the postseason. And also, keep in mind, he played in the USFL. 3-0 in SB.
Troy Aikman: Regular Season stats: 32,942 passing yards, 165 passing TD’s, 141 Int’s. 1,016 rushing yards, 9 rushing TD’s. other Stats: SB MVP. 3-0 in SB. 19-4 as a starter in the postseason.
You make the call!
Ok, Lets look at the DB’s:
DB: Steve Atwater(yes)
DB: Rodney Harrison (maybe)
DB: Ed Reed (First Ballot)
DB: John Lynch (yes)
DB: Darren Sharper (Maybe)
DB: Ty Law (Maybe)
DB: Deion Sanders (FIRST BALLOT)
Tell me if they make the HOF. And if they do, tell me if they are a first Ballot.
Everybody! why isn’t Jim Tyrer in the HOF!?!?
Tyrer has been Dead for 30 years! There isn’t much urgency. He should be a lock for the HOF IMO. I can’t see how anyone can overlook his alcolades.
I have no problem with Boomer being a HOFer at some point. No he’s not better than any of his peers at the position.
FS: Steve Atwater (YES)
SS: Rodney Harrison (NO)
SS/FS: Ed Reed (YES – 1st)
SS/FS: John Lynch (NO) media over-rated due to big hits
SS/FS: Darren Sharper (YES)
LCB: Ty Law (YES)
RCB: Deion Sanders (YES – 1st)
Darren Sharper could make it. He is a 1/4. And in my opinion should be at least a 2/4. He does have 8 Int TD’s. And also has 858 tackles. If he gets 9 or 10 Int’s TD’s to finish his career, than is he a first Ballot?
I can’t believe i forgot these DB’s:
DB: Ronde Barber (yes)
DB Champ Baliey (Yes)
DB: Aaron Glenn (no)
DB: Charles Woodson (maybe)
DB: Terry McDaniel (no)
What do you think about those DB’s?
Guess who I think could(will) make the HOF someday? If you guessed Shane Lechler, than your correct! You probably didn’t though. He is a good punter…Wait, Wait! Scratch that! He is a rediclous punter! Scratch that! HE IS THE BEST PUNTER SINCE….SAMMY BAUGH!. Yes, Slingin Sammy Baugh. Hear me out.
He is a 4/4. Should be a 5/6, at least!
He avg. 46.8 yards per punt! NFL record!
He has avg. at least 45.5 per punt in 8/9 seasons!
He has only 3 block punts out of 682 punts!
He has led the NFL in punt avg. 4 times and came in second 2 times!
He has had at least a 60 yard punt in every season he has played!
Led the NFL in punting yards 2 times!
And he is only 32! That is young for a punter!
Special Teams doesn’t get much love! Never! There is only ONE special teams plasq
Special Teams doesn’t get much love! There is only ONE special teams player in the HOF! I think that is going to change. And here are the players who either will make the ballot or make it in. and tell me if you think they will make it or not:
K: Adam Vinatieri
K: Morten Anderson
K: Gary Anderson
K: Jason Elam
K: Matt Stover
K: Nick Lowery
P: Jeff Feagles
P: Ray Guy
P: Shane Lechler
P: Jerrel Wilson
KR: Dante Hall
KR: Brian Mitchell
KR: Devin Hester
ST: Steve Tasker
Brad,
All of the players you listed are exceptional at their specialty. It remains to be seen if they’ll be recognize by the writers as HOF worthy. If it was up to me I’d say any player who stands out as exceptional for a long period of time should get consideration. Also in theory if the player can be picked to a Pro-Bowl and All-Pro than they ought to be able to earn HOF honors.
That said , Kickers are just not very compelling for me and I wouldn’t select many to the HOF. I dare say if you ask most football fans who Shane Lechler is that they wouldn’t have a clue. :) I know him because he went to Texas A&M. I don’t have a clue how great he is and haven’t seen any hilights of him. Looking at his stats Lechler is truly exceptional and deservers the HOF!!
Special teams players (tacklers) generally aren’t on the Team’s starting O or D roster’s. So even though they exceeded on Special Teams it’s hard to see puting a player ranked somewhere after the top players on their own team as being in the HOF. In that vain would be NE’s Larry Izzo. He’s great on special teams but it’s not a leap to say Mike Vrabel would do the job better.
IMO there are damn few Special Teams HOFers. It’s just not enough to be good at returning the ball or tackling to me. You mentioned one in Steve Tasker who has 7 PB’s but I just don’t see him being a HOFer if you look at his total game. He was a WR who only caught 51 catches during his 14-year career. Neither do I see Brian Mitchell as a HOFer. He was a one-time PB guy who was an average RB with good returning stats and lots of durability. . There have been a ton of decent returners in pro football history. Both were very good players but not HOFers IMO.
Now DB Deion Sanders was a Special Teams player who is a HOF player. The same with RB Gale Salers. Billy “Whiteshoes” Johnson my someday get into the HOF on his returning ability and WR stats. WR Ricky Upchurch and RB- Greg Pruitt were also fine Special Teams returners who had more to their game. If Johnson, Upchurch and Pruitt can’t make it than no way should Tasker.
One of the best Special Teams tacklers who I doubt will ever get his do was the Cowboy’s Bill Bates. I doubt the writers will recognize his acheivements because they don’t stand out on the stat sheet but IMO he was the best special teams player over the 80’s and 90’s. He only made 1 PB which is a travesty IMO. And this coming from a Cowboy hater!!
Too early to tell on Hall and Hester. I tend to think Hall is a better returner but maybe Hester will regain his form. I’m not sure either has enough game to gain HOF attention.
IMO Billy Johnson, Greg Pruitt, and maybe Bill Bates are the best Special Teamers excluding kickers not getting HOF consideration. I’m sure there are a few more but these are guys that are being passed on for too long IMO.
It is a shame that special team players are not giving the respect they deserve when it comes to the HOF. There is many a player that deserves to be in the HOF but only Stenerud has made it.Back in the day kickers would kick the ball and run to the sideline (some even without a shoe on their kicking foot) but that is not the case anymore. Regardless in my opinion if you are going to select owners, commisioners and such then the Hall should look upon all players the same: their impact on the sport of football. Any person in the NFL that had a major impact both on and off the feild deserves to be considered. Ray Guy was drafted when i was three years old and retired when I was 16 and not yet a big football fan but yet I was very familiar with Mr. Guy and I was only a pethetic Oilers and Lions fan. I am not saying that name recoginition is what should get one into the Hall but I beleive it begins to show ones impact on the sport. A first ballot Hall of Famer should be saved for the very special of the best such as a Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith. In my opinion guys like Curtis Martin do not deserve first ballot consideration. I just know that I am looking forward to going to see my 2nd induction ceremony live when Jerry Rice is inducted the first time being in 2006.
Tony P, I think Shane could make the HOF. Not right away, but there could be a class that is not good and he could just sneak in. Larry Izzo is very good. He is from Rice. He has unofficially the 2nd most ST tackles of all time. I glad the Jets picked him up this year. But, he will never make the HOF. Steve Tasker is the best bet out of all of them. He was a 0/7. And STers don’t All-Pro. Id the Bill’s won 1/4 SB’s, than Andre Reed would be in right now. If they won 2/4, than Steve Tasker could have made it already. If they won 3/4, than Cornelius Bennett could have made the HOF.
You listed Deion Sanders and Gales Sayers. Gale was a great KR/PR. But, keep in mind, he has 2 rushing titles. Deion is a 2nd ballot HOFer without his KR/PR. He is a first Ballot with it. Greg Pruitt, IMO, is a borderline HOFer. He fumbled a lot as well. His rushing yards and TD’s are low. His receiving is fine. And his KR/PR is good. But, not good enough, IMO, to make the HOF.
Billy White Shoes Johnson’s receiving is good and KR/PR is good. But, he doesn’t have enough offense to get him in. Ricky Upchurch, looking at his stats, was good. His receiving is good. And PR/KR was really good. Tough call IMO.
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcsouth/0-11-99/Your-call–Is-Andersen-first-ballot-material-.html
Check that out!
Read Andrew in Atlanta’s comment: He is trying to compare George Blanda to Morten Anderson. HA! I don’t know if Andrew realized that George was also a QB.
Here is the list of notable first year of eligibility:
Offense
QB: Steve McNair:
QB: Vinny Testaverde
RB: Priest Holmes
WR: Keenan McCardell
G: Larry Allen (first Ballot)
T: Jonathan Ogden ( very close first ballot)
Defense
DE: Michael Strahan (could be first Ballot)
DE: Simeon Rice
NT: Ted Washington
DT: Warren Sapp (could be first ballot)
DT: Bryant Young
SS/FS: John Lynch (could be first ballot)
And not to forget!
Coaching
HC: Bill Parcells
Tell me what you think
With all of that, he is not a first ballot
Honestly! Look who is eligible! There is 1 person who is a lock for first ballot (Larry Allen). And there are 4 others who can make the case, Morten is not 1 of the 4. And not to mention, Bill Parcells! So, Morten, IMO, WILL NOT MAKE THE HOF FIRST BALLOT! And maybe not the following year as well.
Offense
QB: Steve McNair: NO
QB: Vinny Testaverde NO
RB: Priest Holmes NO – a Great!!! Stint much like the soup guy. Lol!!
WR: Keenan McCardell Not a HOFer – Nice and Longgggggg career. Benefited playing #2 besides Jimmy Smith and than #3 in San Diego.
G: Larry Allen YES !!!!!!
T: Jonathan Ogden YES !!!!!! His blocking allowed QB’s Tony Banks and Trent Dilfer to bring home a Super Bowl for Baltimore. Lol!!
Defense
DE: Michael Strahan YES !!!!!
DE: Simeon Rice Not a HOFer. – heck of a sacker!! Rice is a lower grade version of Jason Taylor IMO.
NT: Ted Washington Not a HOFer – Good player especially with Buffalo.
DT: Warren Sapp YES !!!!!
DT: Bryant Young Not this year – Young’s career was nearly parallel to Sapp’s . I doubt they will go in at the same time. Young was a great 49er for many years. Rare in the day of free agency. I hope he gets in but Sapp’s flambouyancy might overshadow him.
SS/FS: John Lynch Not this year – I believe he was over-rated some by his big hits and having certian Commentators focusing a little too much on him (Joe Buck for example). His PB’s will ultimately get him in.
And not to forget!
Coaching
HC: Bill Parcells YES – no reason to wait!
So, Tony P do you agree with me on saying Morten is NOT a 1st ballot HOFer?
Brad – I thought you said you thought Morten was a possible first ballot guy (see Feb 11 comment)?
Based on the lack of Kickers in the HOF I’d say it’s 99%to 1% NO on Anderson being a 1st ballot HOFer. The only way he gets in on the 1st ballot is if his eligibility group is really weak.
Andrew in Atlanta clearly doesn’t know or forgot his history. Ha,ha,ha. Blanda only quarterbacked the Houston Oilers to two Championships which were the first ones for the AFL . An ol George was no Bobby Douglas– he aired it out big time!!!!!!!!!!!! When I grew up in the 70’s he was an icon not only for winning but it seemed like he’d play forever.
Tony-Zoneblitz
I corrected myself. I didn’t realize who was going to be on the ballot for the first time in the 2013 class. Now, if guys like Micheal Strahan, Larry Allen, John Lynch, etc., weren’t on the ballot, than he might squeak it out. But, there on the list.
Im very confused. Why did Daryle Lamonica Pro Bowl in 1965? He only had 376 passing yards. And whats even stranger is that Jack Kemp Pro Bowled as well, and there on the same team. Strange.
In 1965, the AFL Champion Buffalo Bills played all-stars from the other AFL teams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Football_League_All-Star_games
Here is the criteria in my opinion to have a shot at the HOF:
Offense
QB: 1/5, 35,000 passing yards, 205 TD’s and .600 record as a starter. Leading the NFL in a passing stat for the season.
RB: 1/6, 11,000 rushing yards, 85 rushing TD’s, 4.0 yards per carry, 350 receptions, 12 receiving TD’s, rushing title
WR: 2/6, 900 catches, 13,050 receiving yards, 80 receiving TD’s, receiving title.
TE: 3/6 700 catches, 50 receiving TD’s, 8,000 receiving yards
OL: 6/9
Defense
DE: 3/7 120 sacks, 700 tackles, 30 forced fumbles, sack title
DT: 3/6, 90 sacks, 600 tackles, 20 forced fumbles
LB: 4/9, 25 sacks, 20 Int’s, 1,500 tackles
DB: 3/7, 45 Int’s, 5 Int TD’s, 500 tackles,
Special Teams
K: 3/5 80% field goal kicker, 98.7 extra point kicker, 2,000 points
P: 2/5 50,000 punting yards, 43.5 yards per punt,
Is Antonio Cromartie a one-hit wonder?
Brad,
Good analysis but I fear your criteria is too stringent and would miss some really deserving players. Maybe the ones where a player happens to play during an era of great players at a particular position. Some players also lack All-Pro status which shouldn’t mean they’re not a HOF caliber player. For example their’s WR Harold Jackson a 1/5 who IMO was a HOF player who was 175lbs soak and wet who played 16 yrs. And every bit as skilled as Lynn Swann who was a 1/3 – 8 yr player. I can’t figure out Jackson being over-looked. Plus a player may go under the radar and might not achieve the number of alcolades they deserve. I know this happened especially in the days of the great dynasties which were loaded with Packers, Cowboys and Steelers.
Also don’t forget about the years of service. I’ve noticed that very few HOFers have played less than 10 years.
Is this your opinion on how you would vote or your opinion on how you think voters will select in the future?
Antonio Cromartie would seem to be a one year wonder. I assume he was greatly effected by the pressure Shawne Merriman was able to put on the QB. Maybe it was the so-called “Sophmore Slump”. Whatever he should get a mulligan with the rest of the Defense, and we’ll see what happens this year. My guess is he’s not as bad as last year or good as his rookie year but more of an slightly above average DB.
Tony P, what I should have said is that, these are “guide lines”. I don’t think there is criteria to make the HOF. The way I would vote, is to vote who was the better player.
Oh, Ok. I like that you’ve set some guidelines to go by. These players probably should be first consideration for HOF.
What do your guys think about these players? Just tell me if they are first ballot or will make the HOF or will make the ballot or won’t make the HOF OR won’t make the list. Will Peyton Manning make the HOF? Will Tom Brady make the HOF? Will Kerry Collins make the HOF?.Donovan McNabb making the HOF? Will Kurt Warner make the HOF? Will Drew Brees make the HOF?
` Will Edgerrin James make the HOF? Will LT make the HOF? Will Fred Taylor make the HOF? Warrick Dunn? Jamal Lewis? Shaun Alexander? Clinton Portis? Ahman Green? Thomas Jones?
What about these WR. Isaac Bruce? Marvin Harrison? T.O.? Randy Moss? Torry Holt? Muhsin Muhammand? Joey Galloway? Derrick Mason? Hines Ward?
TE: Tony Gonzalez? Antonio Gates? Jason Witten? Jeremy Shockey? Shannon Sharpe?
OL: Kevin Mawae? Will Shields? Willie Roaf? Johnathan Ogden? Alan Faneca? Larry Allen? Orlando Pace? Dermontti Dawson?
DL: Michael Strahan? Jason Taylor? Kevin Carter? John Abraham ? Warren Sapp?
LB: Hardy Nickerson? Jesse Tuggle? Brian Urlacher? Ray Lewis? Joey Porter?
DB: Ty Law? Darren Sharper? Ed Reed? Champ Bailey? Lawyer Milloy? John Lynch? Brian Dawkins? Charles Woodson? Aaron Glenn? Rodney Harrison?
Special Teams: Morten and Gary Anderson? John Carney? Matt Stover? Adam Vinatieri? Jason Elam? Jeff Feagles? Steve Tasker?
Brad: Here is my opinion on the HOF: First Ballot HOF’ers are Manning, T. Gonzalez, Roaf, R. Lewis. Eventually, I believe that T. Brady, F. Taylor, I. Bruce, M. Harrison, H. Ward, R. Moss, Sharpe, Urlacher, Odgen, Pace, M. Anderson, A. Vinateiri get in. As far as the DB’s I believe one or two will get in but Deion Sanders should get in before any of them make it but who knows when it comes to DB’s and OLinemen
Shane – I think if you read through the 100 or so responses on this thread, you’ll find some good opinions and arguments about a lot of the guys you mentioned. There’s also another thread with 100+ responses that talks about a lot of those same guys here:
https://www.zoneblitz.com/2008/12/12/footballhall-of-fame-worthy/
Much like the pathetic HOF voters you are totally ignoring the only man in history with 5 Super Bowl rings, Charles Haley. Like him or not the man should be in. While Tags should be considered at some point there are too many players who should already be in that should be in before the commish. The backlog continues to grow so it is ridiuclous that the votes do not place in all 7 who make the final vote. As Peter King said a couple years back if they get that far the deserve to be in so why put if off any longer. So the 5 current ear players should be Rice, Smith, Haley, Dent and either Dawson or Grimm. While Cris Carter should already be in the Hall I do not see them allowing another receiver to share Jerry’s spotlight so that means he wait another year but there is no reason he should not be in the class of 2011.
JJ – I don’t think the 5 Super Bowl rings is going to get Haley in the Hall–defensive guys rarely seem to get the Super Bowl bonus. Haley might get a little more credit than most defenders with 5, but given that most everyone wants to give credit to Montana/Young/Rice and Aikman/Smith/Irvin for those wins, probably not a lot–otherwise he would have been a finalist already.
He also “only” had 100 sacks in his career, and was a 2/6 All-Pro/Pro-Bowler–good numbers, but not earth shattering. I think there are other guys who probably would make it in before him.
As a Cowboy follower, I can’t see Charles Haley not being a HOF member. He was a vitale part of their Defenses and the Cowboys wouldn’t of won there last Super Bowl without him. Everybody thinks Dallas was all about Offense which is wrong. Most times Aikman wasn’t puting up huge scores. Dallas’s Defense was awesome two. That’s what makes those teams in the 90’s one of the best of all time. And you know how I hate the “Boys”. There may of never been a better team than the one that hung up 52 on a Buffalo team in their prime was was also truly great. I think people are trying to make Haley pay for his cockiness as a young 49er. Haley was better the L.C. Greenwood and that’s damn good. People get way to caught up in numbers by trivializing 100 sacks. It kind of matters when and where you get those sacks. :) For example Chris Doleman got a lot of sacks in throw away games for losing teams. Yes, IMO going to Super Bowls and performing against the best competition does hold more value.
JJ, Tony’s reply about Charles Haley is a very reasonable viewpoint to take. No defensive player has gotten a boost over similar or better competition at his position into the HoF via large numbers of Super Bowl rings. Tony P., you can say “Yes, IMO going to Super Bowls and performing against the best competition does hold more value” all you want, but it’s the HoF electors who have the votes, and so far it just hasn’t translated into HoF membership leg-ups for defensive players — though it has for a few QBs (Layne, Aikman, Bradshaw, Griese), Paul Hornung, and Lynn Swann, all on offense. Note also that L.C. Greenwood isn’t in the HoF either, and with Claude Humphrey denied it’s hard to see a case for Greenwood over Humphrey. I’d put them both in, myself, but it’s not my call.
Haley’s postseason honors profile is 2/5/none (for AP 1st Team All Pro/Pro Bowl/All-Decade Teams) and he’s competing at LB with contemporaries Kevin Greene (2/5/90s) and Rickey Jackson (0/6/none), for two. Note that for what it may be worth, Greene (160) and Jackson (128) have more lifetime sacks than Haley (100.5). At DE, he’s competing for sure with Chris Doleman, who has a 2/8/90s profile and 150.5 sacks. Note, though, that when it comes to defensive stats such as sacks and INTs and especially tackles, it’s not clear to me that they tell us a lot that’s critically meaningful when it comes to the HoF.
Not that I’m saying Haley’s a stiff or anything — but he’s got plenty of legitimate competition for the HoF. It’s not unreasonable he’s waiting a while, and he could be elected anytime between next year and never.
I don’t beleive Cris Carter will be a first round ballot inductee, or a HOF member, he was a good recevier who caught a lot of passes for many td’s and in the process was paid very well for his contributions …. When you put Carter alongside Jerry Rice there is really no comparison. Voting members should induct players who, at there respective positions are truly worthy….. not for longevity and /or big stat numbers, also his whinning on national tv about not getting inducted was pathetic… voting members may consider this if he does come up for a ballot vote. If Cris Carter does get inducted….then congratulations are in order
Colin, I believe Cris Carter is a HOFer. He will get inducted. He has 130 receiving TD’s. Over 1,000 receptions. He is a 2/8. I think thats HOF worthy.
Brad, I feel there are many more players who are far more deserving to enter the Hall than Cris Carter. Kickers for example are always overlooked, perhaps its due to the postion, anyways if Tim Brown and Andre Reed are inducted then Carter would be logical choice I suppose. Great site you have here with lots of different oppinions and insite to why or why not a player is worthy….
Dallas Cowboys that SHOULD be in the HOF: Jim Jeffcoat, Drew Pearson, Harvey martin, Chuck Howley, Larry Brown, Calvin Hill, Jethro Pugh, Ed Too Tall Jones, Nate Newton, Russell Maryland, Charles Haley.
To think there are only 11 Dallas players/owner/coach/GM inducted into the HOF just amazes me. Tell me the press doesn’t have it out for Dallas (or did at some point).
Maria – Normally I would let some of the site regulars respond first, but in this case I thought I’d respond right away. I would guess that a lot of a teams that have been around a lot longer than the Cowboys have even fewer HOF entrants, so I personally disagree that having “only” 11 entrants in the Hall is sign of a media vendetta–but you’re certainly allowed your opinion.
However, if you want to make the claim that more Cowboys should be in the Hall, I sincerely encourage you to take off the Cowboy-colored glasses, and look at the careers of some of the guys on your list again.
Russell Maryland played 10 seasons, made a single Pro Bowl appearance, and no All-Pro teams. About the only other noteworthy thing from his career was that he was a first overall pick, in what may have been one of the worst drafts ever (very few Pro Bowlers in that class, compared to other years, and only two HOF guys I see in the draft–Favre in the 2nd round, Aeneas Williams in the 3rd). I wouldn’t go so far as to call him a bust, but I have seen some that do, given his draft position.
Larry Brown – assuming you’re talking about the cornerback, and not some other Larry Brown that may have slipped passed my radar (there were a few, but none that I saw that played in Dallas) – he had one pretty good season, of the five seasons where he was actually a starter. He played a total of 8 seasons, and never made a Pro Bowl or an All-Pro team. He wasn’t even the best cornerback on the Cowboys when he played (Kevin Smith, Deion Sanders). The only noteworthy thing he did was win the Super Bowl XXX MVP–hardly enough to warrant consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Hi Maria,
Thanks for your contributions. I’ll hear arguments for some of these guys. Chuck Howley I think is your best case. He was a five-time All Pro and six-time Pro Bowler and was a phenomenal player by most accounts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Howley
Jethro Pugh, for example, was also a very solid player who happened to be overshadowed by several of his teammates. I think you could make a fairly solid argument for him, though he only went to one pro bowl.
Nate Newton, for right or for wrong, brought many of his problems on himself after his career. I’d have to look a little more closely to see who his peers were when he played. But he may warrant a look somewhere along the line.
Some of your candidates I disagree with strongly. Russell Maryland, for example, was a one-time pro bowler who was a good player but was never considered the best at his position. I don’t think he warrants being in the hall.
I’m confused about your inclusion of Larry Brown. I don’t think at any time Brown was even considered the best cornerback on his own team (Kevin Smith was a far, far better player than Brown), much less one of the all-time greats in the game. He played only eight seasons, starting for only five. He had a good Super Bowl game where the Steelers’ quarterback threw two picks right to him, but beyond that he never played in a pro bowl and really was, at best, a solid contributor to a couple championship teams and, at worst, a very mediocre player at times.
http://sandbox.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowLa22.htm
Thanks again for commenting.
AT
Maria–
Don’t agree with most of your Dallas HoF “omissions.” Of the ones on your list, agreed that Chuck Howley indeed should be in, and Drew Pearson and Charles Haley have at least decent arguments.
None of the rest (Martin, Pugh, Brown, Hill, Jones, Jeffcoat, Maryland, Newton) have sufficient postseason honors to put them ahead of the pack. Maria, how about considering an ex-Cowboy who has a better argument than any of these folks? Have you heard of Billy Howton, who spent the last four years of his career with Dallas, retired having amassed the most catches and receiving yards in a career, was instrumental in founding the NFL Player’s Union, and has never even been a finalist? Now there’s an unfortunate Cowboy HoF omission to consider. See this link for Howton’s career stats:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HowtBi00.htm?redir
Re your observation: “To think there are only 11 Dallas players/owner/coach/GM inducted into the HOF just amazes me. Tell me the press doesn’t have it out for Dallas (or did at some point).” No, I don’t see that the press has it out for Dallas regarding the HoF. Note well that membership in the HoF is an individual, not team achievement. Counting heads in relation to other teams just doesn’t fly here.
Maria,
bachslunch knows a lot but sometimes turns into scrouge so don’t take his opinion too hard. And just to let you know there might be a guy or even two who run this website with colored glasses on too from time to time. Don’t expect much Cowboy love from Vikings fans. Remember “The Hail Mary”?LOL!! Glad to see a women’s point of view on here for a change. I encourge you to come back. :)
IMO as someone who’s watched nearly all of the “Boys” games I say Jeffcoat has a HOF body of work. Hard to sneeze at over 100 sacks. The media did dis him for sure and he won’t make it.
Nate Newton turned into a great player 2/6 and will be a HOFer in based on light competiton at G in the 90’s. A real character on a memorable team that won 3 SB’s. He’s the second best G behind Randall McDaniel for the time . Newton’s son is an up and coming Texas Longhorn so the Newton name will be getting more play in the future. I’d give him a 90% chance of HOF. He’s listed on my game that know played. I did a lot of research!! Where’s my T-Shirt Andy/Tony? LOL!!
I’d give Charles Haley a very good chance. I’d vote for him. He was a big-time winner with impact and acolades. I’d give him a 80% at this point.
Harvey Martin 1/4 has a lot of support pushing for him even in death. He certianly deserves the HOF and I believe he’ll get more support than L.C. Greenwood 2/6 in the end. One of them will make it!! I bet Martin becomes a HOFer soon.
Drew Pearson has good shot. I’d vote for him and I’d say he like Martin has a better than 50% at this point.
“Too Tall” and Jethro Pugh were very good but fall shortIMO – Ring of Honor if not there.
Calvin Hill. He had a nice, productive career and his running style was fun to watch. IMO he didn’t play at a HOF level long enough. He wouldn’t get my vote but I certialny think his career compares well to Floyd Little so who knows. There could be a push plus he remains a visible character with a famous son. I’d give him a little better than a slim chance at 15% at this point.
Sorry Maria but Larry Brown and Russell Maryland are both a heck no!! Good Super Bowls but both went to the Raiders and disappeared in their “Black Hole” like so many other players have.
This one’s for you bachslunch, I give Chuck Howley about a 10% chance and going down every day. Except for my guy – AFL’s Johnny Robinson the 1950’s and 1960’s are about done. That will be unforturnate for many great players from the 1960’s.
In my Game picks I give the 1960’s onepick left at LB and it goes “Wildman” to Bill Bradley who led a vey young organization to the playoffs and another to the SB.. But I could of easily picked Tommy Nobis who seems to have lots of support as a University of Texas Alum and who would be the 1st and only Atlanta Falcon in the HOF. I guess Deon Sanders will get that honor.
The problem is the voters base is getting too young to appreciate the older players like people that actually saw them play which is enormously important. The Senior voting process needs to change. We’ve talked about that before with some good suggestions. Because of this I give Dick Howton a 1% chance.
Maria, don’t feel bad about your Cowboys lack of representation. You’re not alone. I’m a Dolphin fan and despite bachslunch’s opposing view I to say we’re under represented too. We’re one of the winningest organizations over a 40 year period and we have two HOF QB’s. We have 1 WR and 1 defensive player in the HOF out of a total of 9 in the HOF. I don’t count Thurman Thomas!!
The Cowboys HOF prospects look good to me with Larry Allen a shoein HOF along with Martin, Pearson, Newton and Haley’s having good chances. Hopefully the HOF will have 5 more Cowboy players maybe in the next 10 years.
Finally, can you tell that I’m a Cowboy Hater?? I have been since the 1972 Super Bowl – Dallas 24 Miami 3. Ripped out my heart than their on my tube every Sunday for the rest of my life as an Austinite.LOL!! I know, I need Direct TV.
Deion Sanders= top 10 most versatile players all time.
good one! very provacative statement. :)
Brad,
Are you taking into account two-way players that played before the modern football era which began in 1960?
Bill Dudley, Sammy Baugh, Deion Sanders, Eric Metcalf, George Blanda, Tim Brown, Chuck Bednarik, Don Hutson, Paul Hornung, and Bob Waterfield. It’s in no particular order.
I think Randall Cunningham should go into the HOF. He’s never mentioned by the so called experts but why I have no idea. I’ve heard others say that he doesn’t have the stats to get in. I looked at his stats and he stands pretty tall against others already in the HOF. Other still knock him for not going to a superbowl. In 98 if Anderson makes that chip shot field goal, their in the superbowl. He is the most exiting player in the NFL bar none through until 91. To come out of retirement and lead the vikings to a 2 loss season is pretty fantastic. I don’t know. He probably will not get in, but in my opinion he should.
Kenny Easley
Paul McJulien should be in the hall!!!!! Since when should every punter who ever played be considered for the hall??? Brian Barker??? Get a clue!
Well, theres no Punter in the hall currently, and Ray Guy is the greatest punter of all time. The chances a guy like Brian Barker making it are 0.1%.
If Ray Guy is the best NFL punter of all-time than I’m a monkee’s Uncle. :)
Than who is the greatest pure punter?
I know some of the best Punters played multiple positions and are already in the HOF. Why do we need players who were limited to playing only punter in the HOF?
Best Punter is Sammy Baugh and yes I knew of his greatness as a punter. Baugh was amazing!!! He could throw like Dan Marino, run like Michael Vick, pick off passes like Ronnie Lott and punt the ball better than Ray Guy.
Guy isn’t even the best Raiders punter ever. Shane Lechler’s numbers blows him apart. Lechler is on the verge of his 5th punting title, and should get his 5th 1st team AP All-Pro. He should also be selected for the All-Decade team. With 4 weeks left in 2009 Lechler also has a chance to break Baugh’s single season record which has stood since 1940. Currently 51.5 v Baugh’s 51.4
Guy was a 3-time 1st team All-Pro but only had one season where he averaged more than 44 yds+. Lechler already has 9/10 seasons greater than 45.9+ and averages an NFL record 47.2 for his entire career. In fact Lechler’s NET of 44.4 in 2009 is better than all but one season of Guy’s single season GROSS avgs.
Tony P – worth noting that Baugh punted the ball much closer to the LOS than today’s punters. Still a great achievement from a legendary player when you consider he was a brilliant QB and DB too.
Boknows – thanks for your post!! I didn’t know about the line of scimmage. Yale Lary is another two way player – great punter in the HOF.
IMO the first Punters only who should go into the HOF are SF’s Tommy Davis and KC’s Jerrel Wilson (one of the best big game punters ever).
Lechler should be a lock if voters ever decide to vot in a Punter only.
I think it should be:
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
John Randle
Kevin Greene
Shannon Sharpe
Cris Carter
Dick LeBeau
SSR – Why do you support LeBeau and not Floyd Little?
Put Jerry Rice on Oakland and Tim Brown on the Niners and the numbers are basically reversed. They are 1A & 1B. Rice had Montana and Young throwing & a legitimate #2 receiver for years. Brown had Wilsons (Marc & Wade), Schroeder, Vince Evans, Hollas, George, Rick Mirer, etc. & James Jett as a number 2 for 8 years. Brown should be a first ballot HOF. (Also one of greatest special teams players of all time – how many superstars can boast of that?)
Yup. My predictions stunk.
New bloods are:
FS Steve Atwater
LG Steve Wisniewski
K Gary Anderson
Actual new bloods were:
HC -Coryell
RB- Craig
DE- Haley
DE/OLB Jackson
Struck Out!!!
And the 2010 Winners are: drum roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****CB Aeneas Williams*****
****RB Emmitt Smith*****
****WR Jerry Rice****
****LB/DE Kevin Greene***** if there’s justice!!
****TE Shannon Sharpe*****
I’m extremely disappointed that Kevin Greene and Aeneas Williams aren’t even in the running. :(
If you go back and look at the decade by decade research I did it came down to Rickey Jackson and Kevin Greene to battle from the 80’s for likely one HOF spot. I hope both make it but their position has been filled from the 80’s. Jackson would be the first NO player in the HOF I believe. I think he’s getting a lot of push. Sam Mills was awful good too.
Does anyone think Jerry Rice will share the spotlight with another WR or don’t the Voters care?
Year 14 of eligibility for for Grimm and I don’t see why he doesn’t get the say treatment Bob Kuchenberg recieved. :) Am I wrong on Russ Grimm’s greatness? He didn’t play very long. If he really deserved it shouldn’t he of made it in quicker like another short career guy – C – Dwight Stepheson??
Can you imagine how pissed off Cris Carter wil be if Timmy Brown is elected before him? Lol!!!
So I can only have 3 player predictions right – Smith, Rice and Sharpe. I’ll take a mulligun and pick hmm notice all of the hotdogs on the list?? I say sack master Richard Dent from the great 85 Bears finally gets his due and Don Coryell who I would never vote for. What the hell , if Dick Lebeau makes it why not. Why not put every coach who came up with a great scheme or a winning record in the HOF? That’s what it’s coming to IMO.
Being a Niner fan , I was wondering what you think about Watters and Craig. While Craig does lack seasonal awards and only a few 1000 yd. seasons he was a pivotal part of 3 Super Bowl Winners. I think he helped (along with Walsh’s system) revolutionize the HB position and Faulk took it to the next level. While he ranks 35th all-time @ yards from scrimmage, I do not see many in front of him that will not get in, and even fewer that have as many rings. I believe he was also in the top 15 career rushing yards at the time of his retirement and maybe because so many have passed him in the last 8-10 years it hurts him. Watters lack of recognition is a little confusing. I know he was disliked by writers and fans alike but he has impressive numbers. His career numbers are better than Craig and very similar to Thurman Thomas, who I think received too much love from voters to get in so quick (was it pity?).
Not to leave the defense out – Charles Haley should be a no brainer just for his impact on Niner and Cowboy D’s that he made much better.
Interested to know what you think.
Good points Tony B. I think all of the Niners you named will make the HOF – someday. I’d pick Craig for this year if not for being the Class of Smith and Rice.
Thanks for the positive reinforcement on those Niners. While I studied the list for this year the only thing I could think about was the fact that there is no way the voters should let Rice and Smith share the spotlight with a big crowd. You have not only the best players at their respective positions but arguably 2 of the top 5 players of all-time, period. I am going to go out on a limb and say the Hall only goes with 4 this year and put Sharpe, who at the time of his retirement was in the top 10 all-time in receptions while dominating his position statistically and arguably the best TE in the Hall until Gonzalez and/or Gates gets there. Sharpe is more than deserving in comparison to all other TE’s already there. It is interesting how little respect TE’s had gotten from voters throughout history and almost insulting that the quickest one there was Kellen Winslow and then they voted in Charlie Sanders who may be the most undeserving member in the Hall. That Winslow got in before Newsome should have been a crime. Winslow played more than 10 games in only 5 of his 9 seasons and amassed well more than half of his Receptions, Yards, and Touchdowns during 3 very good seasons (one of which ended with an Oscar nomination for Winslow’s “tired” acting job against the Dolphins) but in two of those seasons Fouts threw the ball 600 times. Placing Sanders (Charley that is–maybe they thought they were voting for Barry twice) in is unforgivable. I would have to check a lot of stats but I would not be far off in saying that the 4th or 5th best TE in the AFC during his same playing career is statistically equivalent or better (probably Trumpy or Barkum). In fact, I remember my Dad complaining that Bob Tucker was better than Sanders and the stats back him up.
The other one I think gets in is Dick Lebeau. I am not old enough to have seen him play but know he was considered a real hard-nosed player, sure tackler and had a nose for the ball. While his playing career looks impressive with the 60+ int’s (I am sure those Detroit D’s spent a lot of time on the field) his biggest contribution has been coaching. I did not see him play but I am more than familiar with his coaching. He has been a part of 5 (maybe 6) Super Bowl coaching staffs and D Coordinator for 4 of those.
The reasoning behind these choices is a little different than you might think. By voting in Rice, Smith and Sharpe you have arguably the 3 best players in history at their position at the time of their retirement. There is a lack of defense in my choices for good reason. The candidates on D are Haley, Dent, Jackson, Kennedy, and Randle (who all played during the tenure of the 3 mentioned above). While all these guys (except Kennedy) will probably get in somewhere down the road can you say which one stands out? They ALL had significant team failures against the offensive players above. Sure Dent’s 85 Bears had success against Rice’s Niners but that was short lived, Haley had great games with and against both the Cowboys and the Niners but also suffered big losses, Randle had a very distinguished career but played in very few meaningful games (maybe 3 or 4 playoff games) and the two I remember most he was a no show (’00 Giants 41-0–and ’98 Anderson choke), Jackson was the same (although he did get a “courtesy ring” as a Niner in’94), and Kennedy should not even be mentioned with these guys. Michael Dean Perry had as good of a career as this guy.
The bottom line is – while playing against these guys on D Rice and Smith amassed a total of 45,000 yards (Number 1 and 2 all-time) and 380 TD’s (Number 1 and 2 all-time) and Sharpe added 800 rec., 10000 yards and 60+ TD’s. While I know it is not fair to hold these guys solely responsible for these 3 players accomplishments it would not be fair for these 3 to share a stage with any of their counterparts.
Part of the reason LeBeau goes in (as he deserves) is that it does not interfere with these 3 being recognized as truly the best players in their era and arguably history at their position.
Only the TE’s that could be WR’s get the attention. Has there ever been a great blocking TE put in the HOF? Maybe Ditka and Smith but not in today’s game. I think TE’s should be viewed as WR’s. I mean when you see Jason witten catching 8 to 10 balls a game what’s the difference?
Big picture is traditionally neither position see the ball very often compared to RB or QB. Especially WR’s who don’t even participate in about a quarter of the plays. On an island ready to make the spectacular play and be that Diva. LOL!! They get much of the glory while playing but less often recognized by the HOF Voters.
I’m sort of a stat geek for years too but not to concerned with HOF until lately. Have you seen some of my predictions on this site? I got into it pretty deep.
I just can’t believe as important as Roger Craig was to three of their SB’s that the Niners triplets won’t be seen on a par with the Cowboy’s. Craig was one of the first truly great all around RB’s to be featured that I can remember. Thanks to the West Coast Offense which has changed football. Yuk! Sorry. I prefer the more traditional pound the rock game to open the pass.
As great a player as Charles Haley was as a Niner , I think he was better as a Cowboy. Same for Deon Sanders. Haley made everyone a winner!!
Rickey Watters is the only one I’m not sure about. He seems to be treated by the media and fans as an enigma as he is rarely talked about or praised for his greatness. Of cousre the media is bad in general about giving great players their due.
Maybe for Watter’s it is because of his quirky personality or the ease he had for jumping from team to team. Would I be wrong in associating him as a Rickey Henderson type?? I know he was flat out one of the best RB’s EVER but you just never know about the HOF Voters. I see him as a possible Burt Blyleven which would be too bad if the Voters give him the shaft like that to wait and wait.
Charley Sanders, don’t even get me started on how poor the Senior selection process has been.
Umm. those Detroit Defenses were among the very best in Pro Football with Alex Karrass and Roger Brown rushing the passer like mad making many of those LeBeau interceptions possible. Plus more opportunities helps that too. Look at Minnesota’s Defense and all the picks (81) by Paul Krause. That’s what pressure does especially in them days with so many poor QB’s.
I say why isn’t Miami’s Jake Scott never mentioned in the voting?
Happy days I didn’t lose what I wrote!! Cont.
Your Dad is right about those players being as good or better than Sanders. I really liked Trumpy. Our consensus beef around here is with Lynn Swann being in the HOF. He is certianly now the bar at the bottom end. I also think Winslow made his name off of one game and that allure stuck a little too hard IMO.
I’m so tired of Steeler players supporting LeBeau as this great 3 time PB player who they never saw or even watch film on. It’s like politics where they keep repeating the same thing until people believe it no matter how informed they are. His Coaching has zero to do with his HOF nomination. And what was his record as a Head Coach? IMO too many coaches being put in the HOF.
I support Dent. He was an amazing sack master and part of one of the best Defenses ever. Wow, Jackson was great. Look at his sacks. Look at the game on another thread where I estimated by previous decades the number of positions to fill and I have one position to fill at 80’s LB between Jackson and Kevin Greene. I’m partial to Greene because his effort was insane along with 160 sacks but I wouldn’t be surprised if Jackson get in before him.
I haven’t thought too seriously about Perry but will look at. The big dirty secret is that Nose Tackles have been totally snubbed by the HOF Voters. Guys like Curly Culp, Bob Baumhower, Joe Klecko and several others are getting the shaft. Man, a great NT is worth a hell of a lot if they can use up 2-3 guys clugging up the middle and if they get sacks too. The Niners had a great one in Micheal Carter and Detroit/Oakland in Jerry Ball. Steelers have had Casey Hampton anchoring and key to their defense for years. Not one in the HOF!! Outrage! LOL!!
Sorry to stick this long list on this thread but my thread called “Hall of Fame Contest” never took off so I want newcomers to see the list because I did a lot of research and it might be of interest now as the season winds down. It can also be found in the Archive for August 20th 2009 .
Remember, please DON’T judge my selections based on who’s not on it but rather if you think the player may some day be in the HOF. I tried to pick the player I thought had the best chance. I’m not viewing players left off as not being worthy. Some positions have multiple good choices.:)
HOF Offensive Unit
Quarterback
60(1) Billy Kilmer
70(2) Ken Anderson and Phil Simms
90(5) Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair and Kurt Warner
Running Back
60(1) Floyd Little
70(1) Chuck Foreman
80(2) Roger Craig and James Brooks
90(5) Emmitt Smith, Marshall Faulk, Curtis Martin, Ricky Watters and Edgerrin James.
Wide Receiver
70(3) Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch and Stanley Morgan
80(4) Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Henry Ellard
90(4) Issac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss and Terrell Owens
Guard
60(1) Jim Tyrer
70(1) Bob Kuechenberg
80(3) Russ Grimm, Bill Fralic and Nate Newton
90(3) Larry Allen, Will Shields and Allen Faneca
Tackle
70(2) Leon Gray and Russ Washington
80(2) Lomas Brown and Joe Jacoby
90(3) Jonathan Ogden, Wille Roaf and Richmond Webb
Center
60(1) Mick Tinglehoff
80(2) Jay Hilgenberg and Bart Oates
90(2) Kevin Mawae and Tom Nalen
Tight End
70(1) Riley Odoms
80(2) Shannon Sharpe and Keith Jackson
90(3) Tony Gonzalez, Jay Novacek, and Ben Coates
HOF Defensive Unit
Defensive Tackle
70(3) Joe Klecko, Fred Smerlas and Bob Baumhower
80(3) Steve McMichael, Ray Childress Jr and Neil Smith
90(4) Cortez Kennedy, Warren Sapp, John Randle and Bryant Young
Defensive End
60(1) L.C. Greenwood
70(1) Harvey “Too Mean” Martin
80(2) Richard Dent and Chris Doleman
90(5) Jason Taylor, Michael Strahan, Simeon Rice, Hugh Douglas and Aaron Smith
Linebacker
60(1) Bill Bergey
70(2) Isiah Robertson and Randy Gradishar
80(1) Rickey Jackson
90(5) Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks, Junior Seau, Zach Thomas and Joey Porter
Cornerback
70(3) Lemar Parrish, Louis Wright and Ken Riley
80(2) Deion Sanders and Eric Allen
90(3) Aeneas Williams, Ronde Barber and Champ Bailey
Safety
60(1) Johnny Robinson
70(3) Jake Scott, Cliff Harris and Donnie Shell
80(2) Steve Atwater and Joey Browner
90(3) LeRoy Butler, Brian Dawkins and Darren Sharper
Punter
60(1) Jerrel Wilson
70(1) Ray Guy
80(1) Reggie Roby
90(1) Tom Rouen
Place Kicker
60(1) Garo Yepremian
70(2) Mark Mosley and Pat Leahy
80(2) Morten Anderson and Gary Anderson
90(2) Adam Vinatieri and Jason Elam
You are dead on about the TE pos. and it shows just how great Ditka and Smith were to post moderate to good numbers receiving and still be a force blocking. While WR’s are Diva’s the ones that did excel and stand out are those that always worked hard and did block well downfield. I don’t see it nearly enough now as in the past but that could have more to do with the speed of the game, wider use of spread sets and more precise timing routes where you only need to make the first guy miss. Irvin, Rice, Rod Smith and just about any Packer WR from the 80’s and 90’s all were excellent downfield blockers. The one that stands out in todays game is a guy I am not really fond of, Hines Ward, but he does work hard on every play.
Haley was indeed better as a Cowboy as well as Neon Deion. It hurts me to say but the Niners and Steve Young would not have gotten their last ring without Deion’s Defensive Player of the Year contribution in ’94.
Ricky Watters’ lack of love will always bother me. He is not even close to a favorite of mine but his numbers are impressive. My initial post was more of a bitch about how easy Thurman Thomas got in with slightly better but similar numbers. When I looked closer it showed while Thomas hung around for 3 irrevellant years Watters had higher Rushing and Receiving yds./gm and more career TD’s. Also impressive was the fact he finished in the Top 10 yards from scrimmage in every year of his career but one (’93 when he was 43 yards shy of the top 10).
Those Lion D’s were indeed better than good. My point with them spending so much time on the field was the fact the Offense was consistently horrible, finishing near the bottom in scoring, while the D finished top 5 points allowed in all but one season during the 60’s.
Good point on Jake Scott. Should be there (maybe too short of a career). I hear and read a lot of support for Steve Atwater and Joey Browner but the flexibilty and durability of Tim Mcdonald during his career seems more impressive.
all selectees and inductees have have definitly earned their honors in being priveliged to have played for nfl teams. my question is how come a great player like Joe Kapp who played in the super bowl for the vikings and was inducted to the hall of fame in the cfl has’nt been considered to be in this elite group. Thanks””
Antonio, even though it’s called the “Pro Football Hall of Fame” up in Canton, in reality it is the “NFL Hall of Fame with some strong players from the AFL and AAFC.” The Canadian Football League has its own hall of fame, which is where one might best think Joe Kapp belongs given that this is where he had his best seasons — and in fact, Kapp is in the CFL Hall. Same’s true for Doug Flutie, and Cookie Gilchrist would be there as well had he not rejected the honor.
Every player in the PFHoF who also played or coached in the CFL (Warren Moon and Bud Grant, for example) was inducted based on what they accomplished in the NFL.
If Billy Kilmer can’t make it neither can Kapp! LOL . I like the support for the wobbly ball.
I know it is really late but i think that Eric Metcalf deserves to be in the HOF!!!
He was the most feared punt and kick returner to ever live.
No more kickers should be allowed in the Hall of Fame until Ray Guy gets his gold jacket.
How can anybody put Billy Kilmer ahead of Ken Stabler?
This is my LEAST favorite HOF Class of All-time!! Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, John Randle – Great!! Than the Pretenders – Russ Grimm, Rickey Jackson, Dick LeBeau and Floyd Little. YUK!
Billy Kilmer is Not ahead of Stabler. Ken Anderson and Phil Simms are ahead of Stabler. Int’s have been killing Stabler’s HOF chances for years.
Even though I dislike this HOF class I did pick all of the players except LeBeau to end up in the HOF. I just wish others would of made it sonner. It’s a good thing this Class has excellent cornerstone players, Rice and Smith on it.
By electing LeBeau and Little it appears the HOF Voters have caved into the political correctness that has striken our Country. They felt no such pressure last year when they turned down Claude Humphrey who was of the same caliber as these two IMO.
Rickey Jackson?????
He’s a Saint in the year of the Saints. Need I say more. :) He was a tremendous pass rusher. I’m not sure if he was more important than Sam Mills who was also a LB for the Saints during the Jim Mora days?
I’m actually very much in favor of Rickey Jackson’s election. His postseason profile of 0/6 is not far away from that of Andre Tippett 2/5 (who is in) and Charles Haley and Kevin Greene (both also 2/5 and not in yet). I don’t see how one can elevate one into the HoF and not the others. Jackson also had a good, well-rounded reputation for playing excellently as a pass rusher, decently in pass coverage, and very well against the run.
A couple years ago, Tippett, Haley, Greene, and Jackson were arguably the best of the LBs from the 80s and 90s not yet in, so it’s not like there’s a reach here or anything. This may be one example of a HoF logjam that will get broken up for a change, and I’m all for it.
Agreed about the Senior candidates, though. Yuckko.
And more things:
–Hayden Rouse: you’re really saying Eric Metcalf was the most feared punt and kick returner ever to play? He was plenty good, but please take a look at the stats Gale Sayers and Abe Woodson and Brian Mitchell and Mel Gray and Travis Williams and Ollie Matson and Devin Hester put up and get back to us on that.
–Jerry: you may get your wish about no more kickers getting in the HoF at this point, though I’m not sure Ray Guy’s getting elected or not will have anything to do with it. The HoF voters don’t seem kindly disposed towards special teams players in much of any capacity.
bachslunch,
I knew you would answer the Metcalf comment perfectly. :) I agree 100% with your anaylsis of Jackson and the other deserving LB’s. Do you have a HOF opinion regarding Sam Mills the little big man?
Tony P – You mention Sam Mills. I saw on another site somewhere someone saying Pat Swilling was as good as Rickey Jackson. I’ve seen the same debate take place over Russ Grimm v Joe Jacoby in a few places. In a case where some of these players from the same team at the same or similar positions were so good not just individually but also as a group how do you separate them?
I’d like to ask the Voters. I’m pretty sure Mills was every bit as valuable to the Saints as Jackson. It’s probably a lot sexier to pick the stud player with a ton of sacks over the 5’9″ squatty fellow who doesn’t fill in the stat sheet as well except that he makes twice the tackles.
Did it look like Grimm wasn’t that happy to be honored at the SB. I guess those OL players inheiritly don’t like to stand out. Maybe he felt a little guilty about being the “only Hog now in the HOF? I think Joe Jacoby will end up in the HOF if there’s any justice.
Sometimes the HOF Voters put themselves in a box by letting the lesser teammate in for ex. Lynn Swann than they almost have to put in the teammate in because they were the better player for ex. Johnn Stallworth. If not they clearly look bias.
It might be the case with Jackson although there might not be the howling as there was from the fans of such a winner as the Steelers. Jackson and swilling are almost mirror images of one another although it does appear that Jackson was the better overall player. Swilling scored TD’s and Jackson didn’t. It will be interesting if Jackson supports his teammates like Swann did in his speech.
Although not the same position it will be hard to let Jason Taylor into the HOF and not teammate Zach Thomas. They were nearly equally as important for the team’s success IMO.
Does it seem like the Voters appreciate sacks over tackles? Isn’t tackling the RB in the backfield just as impressive as a QB sack?
Am thinking Sam Mills wouldn’t at all be an unreasonable HoF choice, though I’m not sure if I’d choose him over two other LBs still not in, Charles Haley and Kevin Greene. Mills would likely be next in line for me after these two.
And as for tackling — sure, agreed that tackling a RB behind the line of scrimmage is a very good thing to do. But as I’m sure you remember, I have grave problems with how this stat is compiled and feel it’s meaningless as currently arrived at.
I know what you say about the tackling but I guess I’m still a little naive because I chose to believe stats are more accurate over the last 20 years. I remember I read the article you passed on but I don’t remember why the numbers were inflated.
I just read how teams have a professional stat guy with several other folks helping to watch so I don’t know if it would be hard to tell the difference between a tackle and a assisted one if that’s a problem. Plus they go back and look at the film. I think in the old days they probably used someone like the equipment manager to keep track of stats so it wasn’t too good.
My list above figures in the number of positions I think remain to be filled based on the 50’s and 60’s results. There have already been like 5 LB’s who career’s started in the 80’s and now Jackson. There could be one more but I seriously doubt two. Greene and Haley might be done!!
I think the 50’s and 60’s are tapped out by the HOF Voters. There should be some AFL players left to enter maybe as a package deal like baseball’s Negro League. The 70’s and 80’s are about equally behind and the Voters need to get cracking on the 1970’s.
There are 25 players from the 70’s that remain to enter HOF : Ken Anderson and Phil Simms, Chuck Foreman, Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch and Stanley Morgan, Bob Kuechenberg, Leon Gray and Russ Washington, Riley Odoms, Joe Klecko, Fred Smerlas and Bob Baumhower, Harvey “Too Mean” Martin, Isiah Robertson and Randy Gradishar, Lemar Parrish, Louis Wright and Ken Riley, Jake Scott, Cliff Harris and Donnie Shell, Ray Guy, Mark Mosley and Pat Leahy
I think that Charles Haley being a finalist this early in his candidacy bodes well for his eventual election. And given that Kevin Greene has a 2/5/90s profile, am thinking he’ll be a finalist in a couple years along with Chris Doleman (who’s really a DE though he played a little bit at LB). Doleman made the semis this year. Haley, Greene, and Doleman have another 15 years of eligibility each, so there’s plenty of time to get them all in.
2011 will see a big influx of excellent players, though, which will not hasten the election of a lot of leftover finalists next year (Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis, and William Roaf are coming up for sure and so is Curtis Martin if he wasn’t on the Jets’ roster in 2006). That’s 4 or 5 more sure things tossed into the mix right off, with Sanders and Faulk most likely to be “first ballot.” 2012 will be a lighter year, with Bill Parcells and Will Shields (and Martin if that’s the year he’s eligible) — Tiki Barber will also be qualify, but I don’t think he gets in. Then there’s a bunch more again in 2013: Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan, and Jonathan Ogden.
I’ll also be very surprised to see more than a few of the ’70s players Tony P. listed above get elected — and given how unpredictable the Senior nominees have been lately, I couldn’t begin to guess who they will be.
Will add that Kevin Greene has made the semis a couple times so far, so that’s another reason I think his chances of HoF election are good.
2013 will also be Larry Allen’s first year of eligibility.
He should be a first ballot lock.
Who’s Going To Play In The 2010 Hall Of Fame Game On August 8 But When Will The Teams Be Announced
Andrew – I haven’t seen an announcement yet, but we’re looking into it. I know Jerry Jones said he offered up the Cowboys to play, since Emmitt Smith is being inducted–wouldn’t surprise me to see the NFL try to set up a Cowboys/49ers matchup, with Rice also being on hand…
Answer from the HOF Website.
“Typically, the participating teams for the preseason classic are announced by the National Football League shortly after the newest class of enshrinees is elected.”
Should have an answer this month.
Why is’nt Doug Williams a candidate for the NFL HOF? he should be!!!!
Doug Williams was a candidate for the hall of fame, but his stats don’t match up well vs a lot of QBs. His win loss record as a starter is 38-42-1. He only had 100 career passing TD’s. I understand he had a ridiculous Super Bowl game, but thats just one game.
Brad’s right re Doug Williams. Williams is certainly eligible, but his regular season stats would look woefully out of place next to the QBs already in if adjusted to era. And one great Super Bowl performance just isn’t going to make up for that — some peaks are just too short, sad to say.
what about jessie tuggle? where is he at? he should definately go into the pro football hall of fame. and andre rison? dang, who is making this list?
Tuggle is a 5-time pro-bowler, no time all-pro who has nice career numbers but not great career numbers. I’d be seriously shocked and a little disappointed if he made it.
Rison is in a similar boat, but definitely behind a huge list of deserving WR like Tim Brown, Cris Carter and Andre Reed just amongst recent players. Another guy that would be shocking to see make it.
Cole,
You sound like a Falcon’s fan. :) As you know Tuggle was an all-time Atlanta football great . He’s also from what I hear a great person within the Atlanta community. However I would not support his HOF election. I too would be disappointed in the same way I was with the Floyd Little and Dick LeBeau elections. It should be all about the football field he’s down on the list of great LB’s IMO.
Rison was definetly very good in Atlanta and he was never shy about telling you. LOL! He came along in a time with a lot of other greats including the greatest of all in Jerry Rice. Rison wasn’t able to hang past his Atlanta days and I too would be shocked if he was elected to the HOF. I wonder if Rison was the first of so-called diva WR’s?
I will admit it is odd the HOF can’t find one player from the Falcons that was of HOF quality. I guess Deon is the one guy now but he wore so manny hats. I know there are others.
Randall Cunningham.
Not so sure about Randall Cunningham. His played a lot of years and has some excellent seasons, but there are significant pockets of injury or otherwise shortened seasons as well. Consider that during his 16 year career span, 8 of these years are significantly shortened and one year (1996) has no playing time at all. That’s better than half of his time in uniform, just not enough to make up for the 7 or so strong years he put up. Likely looks like a Hall of the Very Good level QB.
Same goes for Jesse Tuggle, who is going to have a lot of competition at his position and doesn’t have postseason honors stats that stand out at all. And Andre Rison’s stats put him in the same just-miss boat, especially since contemporaries such as Cris Carter, Andre Reed, and Tim Brown will likely see significant delays before getting in.
Enjoyed reading through the opinions. Big Cowboys fan – hoping to see Howley, Pearson, Martin and Harris from 70s, and perhaps Darren Woodson, Haley, Allen from the 90s. Would be curious about some others though:
Mark Stepnoski and Bill Bates.
Stepnoski is quiet and doesn’t get the PR, but a steady career, all-decade too. Bates was the reason they finally created a pro bowl spot for ST players – so he only has 1 appearance.
Just interested why Stepnoski and Bates aren’t mentioned much.
I don’t think they are mentioned much Patrick because realistically they have virtually no chance of getting elected. Stepnoski was a 5 time Pro Bowler and 3-times a 2nd team All-Pro. Centers need a lot more than that I’m afraid. Very good player but won’t get to Canton.
Allen is a lock, Haley should make it too eventually. Howley, Pearson, Harris and Martin would all be worthy selections for the Vets committee. Woodson is comparable to Steve Atwater and deserves to be mentioned more but the HOF doesn’t like safetys. With the list of eligible players growing each year and only a max of 5 modern era guys getting selected each year its difficult to see where Woodson would fit in. Atwater (8/2) has failed to reach the Last 25 so far.
Agreed with boknows34 on this. Given that Dermontti Dawson, who has a 6(6AP)/7/90s postseason profile and is waiting a while to get elected, am thinking Mark Stepnoski at 1(0AP)/5/90s definitely isn’t getting in. Except for the ’60s, when both Jim Ringo and Jim Otto played, the pattern in past has been to elect the best center from a time period into the HoF only.
Re Bill Bates: the HoF does not seem kindly disposed to Special Teams players in general. And if they break their golden rule, it will likely be for Steve Tasker, who has been a HoF semi-finalist a couple times. Bates’s career slightly predates the period when Special Teams specialists got all-pro recognition, which will certainly not help his case.
tony p said: “I will admit it is odd the HOF can’t find one player from the Falcons that was of HOF quality. I guess Deon is the one guy now but he wore so manny hats. I know there are others.”
Had the HoF voters not denied Claude Humphrey, he would have been the first HoF-er who primarily played for this team during his career. I think he should be in, myself.
LB Tommy Nobis has been on Senior short lists at least a few times, and one of these years he may get nominated this way. Hard to know if he’ll get voted in if so, as his career is a bit short and injury-marred.
Can’t see any other possibilities.
As far as Falcons go…what about Jeff Van Note. For about a 5-8 period in the eighties, he was the best Center in the NFC and then it was a toss-up between him and Jay Hilgenberg.
Today the HOF released the list of preliminary modern era nominees (113) for the Class of 2011
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/2010/9/13/class-of-2011-preliminary-nominees-named/